Religion in Europe...

[Bigmack]

I don't thin Europe is into the Occult as much as the US is.
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Does God have a prayer in Europe?

By Tom Hundley Chicago Tribune

 PRAGUE, Czech Republic — Prague is cluttered with churches. From humble parish chapels to the Gothic grandeur of St. Vitus Cathedral, the wonderment of Christian faith seems to ooze out of the city's every pore.

But the churches are mostly empty, and the only wonder to most Czechs is why anyone bothers to go.

illegal codePopoffWindow('2002983855','750','675','http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/zoom/html/2002983855.html','yes','no');

Europeans and Americans share a civilization and many values. But in matters of faith and religion, Europe and the United States appear to be headed in opposite directions.

Especially since the 2004 U.S. elections, Europeans have expressed alarm at the increasing intensity of U.S. religiosity. Jacques Delors, former president of the European Commission, has spoken of a widening "values gap" between Europe and the United States that could strain future relations.

"This kind of do-it-yourself Christianity — people like Billy Graham and Jesse Jackson and all the TV preachers — would be impossible in Europe," said Trestik, the historian. "Christianity like some kind of supermarket is completely impossible in Europe."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002983854_eurochurch10.html

[Ravenseye]

1. It's like asking if you believe in UFO's

"When we bring up the subject , it's like asking if you believe in UFOs. That's what we're up against here," Lori Gregory said.

Yeah I'd agree with that. As someone who wasn't brought up in any church that's what it's like when people talk to me about it. "Hi I want you to believe in something to which we have no evidence, execpt for this book, which says it's the truth, so therefore it is." Christians explainging their beliefs to people not brought up with religion sound utterly and fantastically nuts.

On edit - I don't live in Europe, but sometimes I wish I did.

[JuniperLea]

2. Paganism and Wicca are huge there

A friend of mine from Seattle just attended a huge gathering in Ireland.

I think the fruits of Christianity they see don't come close to the peace and Earth loving roots of their Pagan culture.


Some interesting stuff here...

http://www.mythinglinks.org/euro~west~wicca.html

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. I think that "huge" is an exaggeration

There certainly are some people who call themselves pagan or wiccan here in the UK, but not very many of them, and for the ones I've known it's been a way of asserting their individuality rather than an actual serious belief in the supernatural.

In the last census, I believe that the numbers of people ticking "other" or "not stated", the categories potentially including pagans and wiccans, were 0.3% and 7.7% respectively, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_England_from_the_2001_United_Kingdom_census), compared with 77% Christian and 15% "no religion".

[JuniperLea]

5. I don't think so

Not judging by the literature certain groups put out... and the pictures I've seen from their massive gatherings of thousands of people. You really have to go to the UK, according to my Wicca friends, to find the serious groups. And these groups tend to remain secretive... people seek them out, they don't broadcast anything.

I just emailed my Seattle friend... she will send me links. She also said she would never, ever answer a census or poll question with Wicca or Pagan for fear of retribution.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. I live in England, and have done all my life.

I also move in some of the same types of subcultural circles as many wiccans/pagans - I'm interested in both roleplaying and folk music/dance.

I don't know of any pagan gatherings attended by thousands, or even hundreds; that's not a guarantee that such don't exist by any means, but I'd want to see specific references to such, with attendance figures.

If there are such, that must be a large fraction of the UKs wiccans/pagans attending - there really aren't that many of them.

My experience of wiccans/pagans, incidentally, is that they don't tend to be at all secretive about it (although of course I have no idea how many people whoe were wiccans/pagans without my knowledge I've met) - if anything, they tend to flaunt it.

[JuniperLea]

13. Here ya go! "Today, Pagan gatherings attract many thousands of people"...

This gathering is three or four times a year...

http://www.pagan.com/SpringGathering/

http://www.druidnetwork.org/directory/groupseurope.html

"I think one of the most exciting trends is that Pagans from around the world are coming together and are identifying ourselves as part of a global Pagan culture. We are a global people and we're meeting each other. We're sharing rituals together. And at this Parliament, we are making history because out of all the international conferences that I'm aware of, where Pagans have come together both in the intrareligious as well as the interreligious realm, I believe we have had more continents represented here at this Parliament than at any of the other gatherings. Although I have not talked to every organizer of every Pagan gathering with an international component, it has been my experience over the last ten years there has been a growth in national gatherings as well as intercontinental gatherings. Here in Barcelona we are finding Pagans coming together not only to celebrate with the world religions community here but to celebrate with each other."

http://www.religion.info/english/interviews/article_186.shtml

"Until recently the Baltic region lay under Soviet control. However, following the collapse of Communism, the pre-Christian traditions have become integral to the aspirations of newly emerged countries such as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to establish their own distinctive national identities.
Baltic religion is one of the most active and living traditions of European religion; traditional folklore with its record of Pagan deities was used for nationalistic purposes, and as late as 1960 the Soviet authorities abolished Midsummer as a national holiday. Christianity came late to the Baltics and the people proudly retained their pre-Christian heritage, boasting of being the last Christianized region in Europe. Today, Pagan gatherings attract many thousands of people who believe that participating in the rites of their ancestors is an important part of their cultural heritage.
In Lithuania there is a strong Pagan church and an organization called Romuva (after the Medieval Lithuanian central pagan temple) which promotes Lithuanian Paganism and is also active amongst the Lithuanian community in the United States. Modern Lithuanian Paganism was formally restored in 1967, repressed by the Soviets in 1971, and tolerated since 1988. A similar organisation operates in Latvia, called Dievturiba, after Dievs the sky-god who, along with Laima, goddess of life, is believed to determine the fate of humans. Its Pagan tradition is known as Dievturi, and its aims are to live in harmony with Nature and other members of society and to follow the will of the Gods."

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/europe/baltic.html

If you want more, I could do this all day... I'm a member of the American Mensa Parapsychology Special Interest Group... I speak almost daily with Pagan and Wicca Priests and Priesteses..

[deaniac21]

14. Great sources! You've proven all of your points!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

15. Hang on...

I've only skimmed them, but at a glance none of them appears to refer to groups in England, do they?

At first glance, the first one seems to be a gathering of pagans in Virginia, the second is a list of groups in "Mainland Europe", the third is an interview with an American, and the last is Lithuanian.

What have I missed?

[JuniperLea]

16. I said Europe, didn't I?

And the OP states Europe and that's what I responded to...

And mentioned one very large gathering in Ireland...

I'm waiting for the link and pictures to the last gathering in Ireland...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. Ah, sorry.

You did say Europe at one point, but I was replying to when you said "you have to go to the UK". For all I know to the contrary there may be larger groups in other parts of continental Europe.

[JuniperLea]

19. I should have the link to the Irish group soon, as well as...

a link that shows many gatherings of many hundreds of Wicca, Pagan and Druid peoples at Stone Henge. I understand they have to get special permission these days and that the stones are fairly well blocked off from the public, and that you have to apply years in advance for certain dates, such as the Spring and Summer Solstices.

[JuniperLea]

22. Here's a group based in London

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/europe/pagan.html

[enigma000]

18. Can I ask a question?

and this is a non-sarcastic, honest question. (unlike 75% of my posts - LOL)

How committed are these people to their faith? To what degree do you think they would suffer more their faith?

I ask this not to judge their beliefs but to contract and compare. As you may recall last month an Afghan citizen was tried and convicted for converting from Islam to Christianity. Even though the sentence was death, he refused to renounce his religion and save his life. Fortunately, he was granted asylum in Europe (Italy I believe) This man was willing to die for his religious beliefs. I think many other people would as well, from all different religions.

It goes to my comments lower on this thread - without any strong religious beliefs, what is to stop a person from converting to another religion if it makes life easier?

[JuniperLea]

21. I know many who would never even pretend to worship another god

Other than Mother Earth, Sister Moon, etc.

You have to understand that these people have been harassed and even murdered for their beliefs... violent Christians don't like them much. Most of those I know personally don't go around telling everyone they are Wicca or Pagan, but wouldn't back down if someone tried to argue against their beliefs. Would they die for their beliefs? I'm sure some would and I know some have. I'm not sure if they were given a chance to denounce their beliefs though. Interesting question! I'll put it to my group!

[mr blur]

4. We're very secular over here,

and, I think, getting even more so all the time. Obviously you have the catholic church but on the whole we have about as much interest in god as we do in surfing. In other words you'll always find some small groups of people with an interest - but most people have more important things to think about than imaginary cloud beings.

We find the whole thing about broadcasting religious belief embarrassing and tasteless, really.

[enigma000]

6. I think of Europe as pre-Islamic

The fastest growing religion in Europe is Islam. Both immigration and a higher than average birthrate to Muslims will continue this trend. It is also possible that non-Muslims will begin to convert in significant numbers in the future.

Oddly enough, Europe may be more religious than Red State America in 50 years.

[Book Lover]

7. It's also possible that current Muslims will become secular

I just don't think it's a given that the number of adherents to Islam in Europe will grow as fast as some projections make out. Some number of these kids are going to grow up and think that the secular world will do them just as well if not better. The lessons of the former Christan Europe are all around them.

[enigma000]

8. Islam can be pretty attractive

Its a confident religion, its followers can be very devout, and it is also a cultural part of peoples lives.

Plus, it can be very persuasive. Over time, Europeans may find it safer to officially "convert" to Islam - without necessarily following all the rules. Like being a non-practicing Catholic. For people without strong religious beliefs, it may not seem like an imposition.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. I think that what happened to the Jews in America will eventually happen

to the Muslims in the Western countries.

That is, they'll still identify as Muslims, but those who maintain all the old traditions will be a minority among them (as Orthodox and Hasidic Jews are among the American Jewish population). They'll keep the customs and observances that make sense to them in modern society, but in 50 years, the hijab will be a rare sight in European and North American cities.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Not so much pre-Islamic as post-Christian.

And for very good reason.

The growth of Islam in Europe is mostly because it is moving into a area where it didn't exist before. Add 1 to 1 and you have a 100% growth rate. That doesn't mean that Europe is going Islamic.

Unlike here, Europe has suffered under centuries of religious war, usually Christian vs Christian -- that kind of puts a pallor on the notion of a religion of peace. Islam is much the same -- more Muslims have been killed by other Muslims than by all the crusaders in history.

In terms of religious trends, Europe is several hundred years ahead of the Muslim world, simply because Christianity is several hundred years older than Islam. Just as primitive people have mostly given up belief in the spirits of thunder and fire in favor of anthropomorphic gods, today the western world is giving up on anthropomorphic gods in favor of Deism, humanism and science - we don't need superstitions to answer questions about where the rain comes from and why does it sometimes not come.

I expect that in a hundred years the Muslim world will look much like Europe does today. And having survived a bout of theocracy and religious war, America will be right there with them.

Fundamentalism is a last gasp of superstition. The future will be god-less.

[enigma000]

12. That is the is hopeful scenario

The less hopeful one is that secular, humanist (pagan?) Europe will do what all peoples have done historically when encountering strong, confident religions worshiping an anthropomorphic god: convert. I mean, once you establish you don't need superstitions to explain the everyday events of life, you can safely conclude you don't need religion. And once religion becomes meaningless, what is the harm of joining one - I mean its not like you will be punished in the here-after.

My fear is as the Muslim population increase in Europe, the socially acceptable thing to do will be to "convert". It will be the next big thing for A list celebrities (marriages last year, pregnancies this year, conversion to Islam next year, hahaha)

Then again you could be right and this will all work about, and people will be rational, I sure hope so.......

[LostinVA]

20. "Secular" and "Humanist" do not equal Pagan, btw

Your post is confusing to me... sorry.

[Ravenseye]

23. Not going to happen

I just can't imagine that once a person becomes fully rational and eliminates 'magic' from their lives, that they'll just go right back, particularly if they've never been.

If someone is born and raised as some sort of theist, monotheistic, pagan, what have you, they might stop being a theist at some point as rebellion or just a part of the gaining of rational thought, but they could easily fall back.

If someone is RAISED without religion and is started with rational thought, particularly in a world where we can explain what we see around us via science reason and logic, it becomes nearly impossible to convert them.

No, i think what will happen is the minority muslim population will integrate. The kids will want to be seen as 'normal' and within a generation or two they'll blend in and be non-religious as well. Islam doesn't have some magic ticket that Christianity lacks. Both will eventually fall to a combination of reason and apathy.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. So how do you explain the fact

That people being raised as atheists converting to religions is not all that unusual?

I have various friends and relatives who have done it (although of course anecdotal evidence should never carry much weight).

[Ravenseye]

27. I don't have hard numbers

I think it's far more unusual that your anecdotal evidence provides. Or these people weren't really raised as athiests. Also stressfull situations can break people's minds. The old adage of 'there are no athiests in foxholes'. Put someone in enough of a stressfull situation they're going to try bargaining their way out of it.

I find it hard to believe an athiest will casually decide to convert after talking to a missionary or friend about the bible. If so, they weren't ever really an athiest. To actually know multiple people who have converetd athiests is something I find hard to believe, only to know that many people who have actually been raised that way.

Who knows though. I haven't done a study on it so i'm talking out my ass basically, working off references in my head I can't dig up.

Heck i don't even really believe the numbers of people in this country of 'Christians'. I think most of them don't believe in a dang thing, and justd go through the motions because it's what you do. Why go to church? Because that's what you do. Why celebrate Christmas? Because it's Christmas.

How many people really truly earnestly believe? I think those numbers are much lower than the numbers of professed christinas even in this country, especially when you add in the people who don't really believe, but go through the motions for one reason or another to not look bad.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. That happens when the strong religion is in charge

It becomes socially and political advantageous to convert. But Muslims don't have power in Europe - they're having to ask for laws to protect them as a minority. Anyone feeling secular, but thinking they'll join something for social advantage, will go to the powerful religion - Christianity. But few people want to do that - in general, a typical European sees religion as old-fashioned and irrelevant. A few European nations did convert to Islam under prolonged Turkish occupation - Albania and significant parts of Bosnia - but others didn't.

Islam also has one big disadvantage for Europe - its antipathy to alcohol. I'm serious here - alcohol, whether beer or wine, has been part of European culture for longer than Christianity. Islam has disadvantages for moderen Europeans, and no real advantages.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. I think it very unlikely.

While figures for the growth of Islam in Europe are very impressive as percentage of current adherents, they're much less so in terms of absolute numbers. As the number of Muslims here grows, the percentile (as opposed to absolute) rate of growth will drop dramatically, I think.

It's impossible to forecast 50 years, but for the forseeable future I think Europe will remain nominally Christian, with the degree of nominality varying from country to country.

People have been forseeing the death of both religion and Christianity for a very long time.

[Eurobabe]

28. Can't wait to relocate there in 3 wks.

Get me out of FUNDY Duh-hi-O!!

[SoCalDem]

29. Europe is a grown up..US is a child

Europeans understand that one's religion is just a facet of a person's life, not the whole universe of it.