Lawyers here? Can we get a class action suit going against Phone Cos?

[symbolman]

Seriously,

Maybe it's time for all of us on the web to create a HUGE groundswell, gather donations and get some high powered lawyers to SUE Verizon, SoBell, etc for their CRIMES against their customers.

It may not stop the spying, but it sure would put a damn dent in their wallets, might make them think twice, and force the Media and CONGRESS to deal with this, esp during an ELECTION cycle.

Any Lawyers here with thoughts or those who know them? I'm going to contact some myself, perhaps a website needs to be created to handle this.

Wouldn't you like to see 50 MILLION people sueing Verizon? (and is it my imagination, but I THOUGHT that the Carlyle Group was involved with Verizon, bought them up not long ago..)

LET'S ROLL! :)

[matcom]

1. great minds

was JUST about to post something similar. count me in as a plaintiff. 100% agree. and if we win, i'll donate 100% of my part of the settlement to charity.

[symbolman]

3. You're gonna NEED that money :)

It's not going to get any better from here on out, the machine has been so broken, with so many wrenches tossed into the works by the Regime that it may never recover.

Remember folks, the first ones on the gravy train here get the most out of a settlement..

This looks like a good deal all the way around.

I'm calling about three lawyers in the morning :)

[Divernan]

5. Right. Don't spend your $10 all at once! Make it last!

nt

[Divernan]

2. Class actions = big $$$ for lawyers in fees: +/- $10 to each class member

(And yes, I'm a lawyer, but this is not my specialty. However, I've gotten lots of correspondence informing me that I'm "a member of a class" unless I opt out, and I have read the mind-killing legalese of these documents. And any lawyer for whom this IS a specialty is likely to be very encouraging, in light of the huge fee he/she would collect.)


If you've ever seen the final outcomes of these suits, you'll see the attys. who brought them collecting some 40% of the award, plus all of their costs (filing, mailing, court reporters for depositions, expert witnesses,etc. - maybe another 10%). In other words the class action attys. collect hundreds of thousands in pure profit; then the remaining $$$ are doled out to the millions of class members - I saw one where each class member got less than a dollar!

Meanwhile, the phone companies are going to pass on their costs to their customers in terms of higher rates, fees, etc. It's not like the award is going to come out of the pension plans of their CEOs. So I consider class action suits in cases like this (consumer protection) to be a great big dog and pony show, with lots of smoke and mirrors, but damn little justice.

This would be a token, undersized bandaid on the unprecedented problem of corporations rolling over to the federal government out of fear OF what the current administration/Cheney would do to them if they fought back. I think a better solution would be for an entity like the ACLU bringing an action to protect our privacy in our communications.

[symbolman]

4. Yeah, much better just to sit back and take it

let the ACLU get rolled over like a crab on the beach by the Federalists, if nothing else it would bring major attention to this for a LONG time, and as I said, the first ones in the suit get the most return, you get less as you sign on..

This could be bigger than any Tobacco ruling, history making..

[Divernan]

7. No, everyone in a class gets an equal share!

The lawyer who files has to notify EVERY customer of the target corporation, and those customers have the opportunity to opt out of the class and then are free to pursue private actions or join a later class. Most people don't bother to opt out.

Please cite your authority for your belief that the first one to sign on gets more.

[displacedtexan]

8. Exactly. Let's take a principled stand.

The $$ is not the issue. I'm with you, symbolman.

[Divernan]

10. Buy a share of stock and go to the annual meeting and demonstrate

That's taking a stand without subsidizing a shell game where the lawyers collect big fat fees which in the long run are charged back to the customers.

[symbolman]

13. Thanks and you're right

the money is not really an issue, keeping this thing ALIVE while they try to install a guy from the PENTAGON who wipes his ass with the 4th amendment DURING an election cycle while all the right wingers won't even get their picture taken with BUSH?

It don't get no better than that.

As for the phone companies passing along the "loss" to all of us, have you not heard about them CHARGING for emails, depending on WHO PAYS? Simplification I know, but not far off from simply Refusing to send YOUR emails, bashing our poor president during "war time"..

We are a nation UNDER OCCUPATION BY CORPORATIONS. Might as well be Martians in War of the Worlds for all they care about you.. or as I used to say in college about the future of man, "Charge by the Molecule.."

Some of us DO stand on "principle"..

[Divernan]

16. The corporate legal offices will stall & delay on class action for years.

That's why they are paid the big bucks. You'll get one story on the fact that the action was filed, and then everything sinks below the horizon while the attys. start the lengthy discovery process, and endless battles with the NSA as to what they can be forced to turn over from their records, and then NSA is joined as an additional party by the original defendants, and then long battles fought all the way to the Supreme Court as to whether NSA is immune to civil suit (soverign immunity), on and on - it will be a bonanza for literally dozens of attorneys.

You can pursue this, but meanwhile, the spying continues. The solution is not within the purview of any one corporation, but within the inner workings of the NSA. As the ACLU article details, there are a number of key questions about what NSA is doing, which we still don't know. This is what we need to pursue.

On edit: Symbolman, you did in your OP ask for legal advice. That's what I'm giving you. This situation reminds me of when some small business would come in and ask my firm to draw up a partnership agreement. So I would drag out my huge book of possible provisions for a partnership agreement and start with the most basic questions. Who owns what percentage? What happens if one of the partners dies? Can the other partners buy his interest from his estate? How will value be determined? What if one of the partners goes through a divorce and his share is awarded to his spouse. What if one of the partners becomes mentally or physically disabled? What if one of the partner wants to sell his share? And a host of other PRACTICAL concerns aimed at protecting the long term interests of the partners and the continuation of the business. A lot of times, people can't face unpleasant realities. Same for prenuptial agreements. People can agree on provisions should one die, but refuse to provide for the eventuality of divorce. But we loooooooooooove each other. We will neeeever get a divorce. Right!

The REALITY is that we are being spied on every day and the interests of reclaiming our constitutional freedoms are best served by screaming bloody murder at our congressional reps & demanding immediate end to the surveillance & thorough investigation of NSA.

[symbolman]

18. I've been through LOTS of legal

disputes and there is something to be told to the media at EVERY level of investigations, I've been on the O'Reilly show when we boycotted Limbaugh to great effect, on the Scarbourough show twice, I get around, and did pretty good too, the right wing fold up like lawn chairs when you hit them between the eyes with FACTS..

and I can play mindgames with them just as well as the next guy.. a good publicist can keep this shit on the top burner for a LOOONG time as well.

It sounds to me like you think things are too complex, it's all really very simple - like Johnson said, "Tell everyone they're PIG FUCKERS.." "But they're not Pigfuckers, sir.."

"Make them PROVE they're NOT pigfuckers.."

[Catrina]

29. May I ask a question? Can the people sue Congress? I ask because

Congress has had hearings (Judiciary Committee) over the past few years involving data mining companies, ie, Choicepoint, LexisNexis, who are responsible for gathering personal information on every US citizen and selling it, sometimes to people who then make it available on the Internet for about $100.00. This was uncovered a few months ago when John Aravosis purchased the phone call records of Gen. Clark.

Choicepoint was also involved in the 2000 election's 'felon list'. What I'm saying is that there are more than the Telecoms involved in this assault on the Constitution. Congress, data-mining companies, phone companies etc. all have conspired to violate the 4th Amendment rights of the American people.

There should have been legislation passed long ago to stop these rogue companies from gathering this information in the first place.

I started a topic on this yesterday and posted an article by Greg Palast there which is absolutely mind-boggling. 'Fear For Sale' is the title of the article.

Imo, from what I'm reading, there needs to be a demand from Congress to issue an immediate halt to the sharing of this data, and then decide what to do regarding lawsuits.

Imo, these activities, because the violate the Constitution, are more criminal than civil. So, how can we, first, stop it right now. Then, can Congress itself be held accountable for not upholding their oaths of office to 'defend and protect the Constituion'?

Next, lawsuits, but maybe individual suits, by every citizen who is affected. The WH has shut down the NSA investigation, but can't we, as individuals, through the Civil Courts, using the FOIA get the records the WH won't allow us to see?

And again, can we sue Congress for not representing the people on this, because they were aware of it ~ and did nothing?

[stepnw1f]

20. same here

money or democracy? Republican or Democrat

[Divernan]

15. A principled stand would be to demand public, televised hearings

from a congressional investigation. If people want to go haring off in a private class action, fine. But don't kid yourselves that some privately settled class action (which nets you ten whole dolalrs, and raises everyone's phone bills by more than that) will shine the necessary light of day on what has happened with the NSA, or that it will stop the NSA. Because the class action would be a civil case against the private telecom companies, and the NSA will claim security reasons for refusing to cooperate or open up their records. If you have a Congressional hearing, you have far more leverage to get at NSA personnel and records, as well as the telecom companies.

If your interest is truly NOT in getting some $$$ out of a class action, then take the time to read this very informative report from the ACLU, Eavesdropping 101: What Can the NSA Do? (1/31/2006)

www.aclu.org/safefree/nsaspying/23989res20060131.html

[symbolman]

17. Listen my friend

I FLEW FROM HAWAII to the Basement of the Capitol Building to FILM the Downing Street Minutes when I heard that NO OTHER MEDIA was going to cover it, maybe CSPAN 3 but I heard about that on the way.. (when I got there I had to chase Conyers down a hallway since a Pelosi aid wouldn't let me in there, Conyers demanded I film it)

Sensenbrenner (who the day before had pounded the gavel and basically told everyone to get the fuck out, cut off the mikes and laughed on the way out), was kind enough to let Conyers have a LITTLE tiny room in the basement for what I considered the most important hearings since the Nixon Era (I got drafted for that time period), the causus belli, the big enchilda, the hearing that would bring down BUSH for sure, the start of the PURGE demanded by the American people..

Before Sensenbrenner relented, and while I was flying for many hours to get there, I was constantly in contact to find out WHERE this hearing was to be held, no one knew.. the fact that it was in the Capitol AT ALL turned out to be a surprise in the end..

They stuck a bunch of plastic serving tables together, put butcher paper on it and threw some flags behind Conyers..

THIS is how it REALLY works.

Do you HONESTLY think there will be Hearings on this?

It's a ridiculous assertion you're making and you sound intelligent enough to know better.

THERE will BE no Hearings, if there are the "revolution" will not be televised. :)

[Divernan]

19. That sounds like great work on your part, Keep it up.

However, you were in the political arena the whole time - not bogged down in the civil court system.
You are cynical about the political system, doubting there will ever be hearings on this matter. I have worked as both a trial lawyer and a legislative lawyer and am more cyincal about the court system, particularly given the judges the GOP has packed in there. I still have more faith in the political system - and I believe IF we can take back control of either the House or Senate this fall, there will be hearings then, if not before. And along those lines, I am working hard on a Congressional campaign with a primary next Tuesday, so am signing off for now.

[symbolman]

21. Keep up the good work

I hope to hell there are many glitches in the Diebold, ES&S, and other Vegas Style (tho with lower standards than Slot machines), Electronic voting Fraud machines and your Campaign prevails.

I have a theory that the gang that can't shoot straight MAY actually screw up enough to hand over pivotal seats and can't justify their fraud. If so, and people like Conyers get subpoena powers we just might see some action.

Then maybe we can both have some faith in the Machines. Tho with the right packing the courts with Federalist slime it will take a long time to purge that system as well.

Thanks for the info, I suspected you were a lawyer :)

[marions ghost]

31. thank you thank you

for explaining that so well. As a lawyer you have more credibility to persuade people that the
civil court system is a total mess and NOT where to take this (except perhaps "for the record"...mostly a record of the failure of the civil justice system to rule against corporate interests). Yes if we can get some sanity in the political arena, then there might be some avenues to improve the justice system. The courts are literally paralyzed by overload, by antiquated & byzantine practices, and by corruption from top to bottom IMO. It's so bad that the average citizen feels it's not worth their time, even if they have perfectly legitimate grievances. And that's fine with the business sector.

[wryter2000]

32. Oh, I plan to do that, too

I'm sure my Congresspeople -- Barbara Lee, Boxer, and even Feinstein -- will be on it. I don't know if we're going to get anywhere until we take back one house of Congress (although, I'm holding out hope that Specter will do his job). Hearings are what I want more than anything, but a lawsuit could also be productive, I would guess.

[marions ghost]

27. if it can bring attention

it's to the point. But it's a statement kind of thing...not so much a redress of legal grievances. Consumers have very few rights, if any.

[marions ghost]

25. and then maybe people will FINALLY realize

that "consumer protection" within the current legal system is a cruel joke. There is no real consumer protection of any kind in America. "Buyer Beware" doncha know--which means the corporate sector has the license to do anything and everything. Pigs at the end of the trough we are. When will people understand that the Justice System is not about protecting citizens rights.

Right, we have no recourse against the companies IMO (except to drop their services). We can only exert political pressure based on unconstitutional surveillance.

[wryter2000]

30. Hi, I wouldn't do it for the money

I know there'd be no money in it. I'd like to "send a message" (the Bushite's favorite phrase) to big corporations that I expect them to take my privacy seriously. If Qwest could resist, then AT&T could resist.

[Hubert Flottz]

6. Count me in!

They ripped us off worse than any thief ever could have! They are stealing our democracy!

[Justice]

9. Already is a class action against AT&T by EFF

http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/

"The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T on January 31, 2006, accusing the telecom giant of violating the law and the privacy of its customers by collaborating with the National Security Agency (NSA) in its massive and illegal program to wiretap and data-mine Americans' communications."

Government recently intervened in the case.

[symbolman]

11. I met the founder of that org

big meet with wes boyd of MoveOn and a lot of other very cool mucky mucks - they absolutely ROCK..

I still think tho that as a private citizen and a political activist that I'm pretty damned sure MY civil rights are being attacked - I've written a Lawyer pal in NYC about this.. he's one of the Lawyers that went Pro Bono when Takebackthemedia.com got sued by Michael Savage's radio Guru/Cult leader..

It was a SLAPP suit to shut us up, and we WON. We had called Savage a member of a CULT, and it turned out to be TRUE :) (and farther reaching than you might imagine)..

I LOVE the EFF - hey, if you haven't already and if they are still allowing it, sign up with them IMMEDIATELY, they get shit DONE, some of the sharpest minds in the biz there.

Thanks for the link!

[Divernan]

12. That suit is also about "data mining" content of calls.

In December of 2005, the press revealed that the government had instituted a comprehensive and warrantless electronic surveillance program that ignored the careful safeguards set forth by Congress. This surveillance program, purportedly authorized by the President at least as early as 2001 and primarily undertaken by the NSA, intercepts and analyzes the communications of millions of ordinary Americans.

In the largest "fishing expedition" ever devised, the NSA uses powerful computers to "data-mine" the contents of these Internet and telephone communications for suspicious names, numbers, and words, and to analyze traffic data indicating who is calling and emailing whom in order to identify persons who may be "linked" to "suspicious activities," suspected terrorists or other investigatory targets, whether directly or indirectly.

The lawsuit alleges that AT&T Corp. has opened its key telecommunications facilities and databases to direct access by the NSA and/or other government agencies, thereby disclosing to the government the CONTENTS of its customers' communications as well as detailed communications records about millions of its customers, including the lawsuit's class members.

On March 31 and April 5, 2006, EFF filed papers with the court asking that it order AT&T immediately to stop illegally disclosing the contents of its customers' communications to the U.S. government. In support of this motion, EFF filed numerous documents and declarations which evidence both the technology and behavior involved in AT&T's illegal activities. These include a declaration from Mark Klein, a retired AT&T technician, and J. Scott Marcus, a telecomm expert who formerly worked at the Federal Communications Commission. Due to the controversial nature of the evidence and the rules of the court, EFF filed the majority of these papers temporarily "under seal." However, we have asked the court to unseal them for public access as soon as possible. AT&T has a week in which to respond to our motion and explain why these document should not be made available in the public court file.

[symbolman]

14. Looks like SmokingGun.com

is going to be pretty busy :)

Nice to see them on Colbert the other night, sharp, funny guy who held his own against Colbert, who obviously liked him.. if Colbert didn't like someone he'd put their head on a PIKE and lean it near his 'fireplace' :)

[marions ghost]

26. Re that govt intervention--hearing May 17

DOJ Will Assert Military and State Secrets Privilege and Request Dismissal of Lawsuit

San Francisco - The United States government filed a "Statement of Interest" Friday in the Electronic Frontier Foundation's (EFF's) class-action lawsuit against AT&T, announcing that the government would "assert the military and state secrets privilege" and "intervene to seek dismissal" of the case.

EFF's lawsuit accuses AT&T of collaborating with the National Security Agency in its massive surveillance program. EFF's evidence regarding AT&T's dragnet surveillance of its networks, currently filed under seal, includes a declaration by Mark Klein, a retired AT&T telecommunications technician, and several internal AT&T documents. This evidence was bolstered and explained by the expert opinion of J. Scott Marcus, who served as Senior Advisor for Internet Technology to the Federal Communications Commission from July 2001 until July 2005

Much of the evidence in the case is currently under seal, as AT&T claims public release of the documents would expose trade secrets. A hearing on the issue is scheduled for May 17th.

--------I'd say this will be one to watch.

[mainer]

22. In maine, several dozen names already signed on via MCLU

They're lodging a complaint through the Maine public utilities commission, which has the authority to investigate. There's bound to be more names signing on soon...

[tuvor]

23. Here's a related DU post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1161184

[symbolman]

24. Thanks!

I'm contacting lawyers, I want a BIG FAT PIECE OF THESE GUYS ASSES... and that ain't no coupon for free long distance for a month..

I want that house on the beach, the one that ELVIS used to own :)

Or at least some ANSWERS, and embarrass SOMEONE in Congress, White House, etc..

[stepnw1f]

28. kick (nt)