The U.S. as Third Reich

[hyphenate]

I know this has been covered so many times in the past that it's become one of those issues that we kind of coast over when it's mentioned, because some people react strongly to the issue of how much we're not really like the Nazis because we haven't yet rounded up groups of people and exterminated them like the Nazis did, for one thing. But while I think that sometimes the connotations can be pretty obvious, I think it's a comparison worth pursuing.

This is NOT to understate the amount of horrendous acts perpetrated on many different peoples--Jews, gays, those physically handicapped or others--because frankly, what the Nazis did was astonishing cruel and beyond the pale. However, most people fail to remember that it wasn't always like that before WWII in Germany. The National Socialism party that Hitler was part of began slowly, and each inch that they were given eventually became a mile, until it was too late and too advanced to do much about it.

I think a comparison to the earlier Nazi party is right on. It didn't come full blown from the minds of Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels or Goehring--it was a slow process, each step an endeavor that they would sneak by the people cunningly, and eventually even the most normal people were drawn into the web of collusion.

Here in our country, some steps have been stepped up because many in our government are already embroiled in the movement. While the Nazi party had a slow build, they also had only a handful or two of true "leaders" who eventually ran the Third Reich when it reached its earliest peak. They counted on moving very steadily into the right positions so that there was never an outright alarm of how far they would go. Once they were in place, and once there were enough people to follow their lead, they didn't have to worry about people following orders, nor did they have to worry about a rebellion against them.

Right now, the movement here began during the Nixon years--just a test step, to see how warm the water was. But people rebelled then, and if it weren't for Woodward and Bernstein, the modern day Nazis here in the US might have gotten further along than they did.

In 1980, when Reagan was appointed, the corruption tried once again to take the US through cunning, lies and manipulation, but once again, there was an uprising and the coup was made to pause for a while. It still continued on behind the scenes, but it wasn't powerful enough to stop "democracy" for much of the time. Electing Poppy helped keep the plots going, but it was obvious that they had to remain underground because of the backlash the papers reported on regarding the Iran-Contra scandal and others that were beginning to be handled.

When Clinton was elected, the conspirators had to watch their step for a long time, because if nothing else, Clinton was not a part of their movement, and they could be in serious trouble should word of an organized coup reach the president's ear. They became more obvious when they gained control of Congress, though, and they finally "printed" their Manifesto when they launched PNAC. To some, PNAC was a goal worth working for, and they gained enough traction to form an attack on Clinton in the form of an impeachment, just to show they COULD. Their power had finally reached a point where they could act more openly, and when the 2000 election came, they manipulated ways to take control again, and were dealt a royal flush when it became the state of Florida where the truth had to be quashed. After all, the state was part of the PNAC already, with Jeb Bush being one of their own, and with GWB his brother.

We know what has happened since then. We know for instance, that they had methods of propaganda which would make some sectors of the population loathe Democrats--some of these were the radical religious groups which suddenly erupted with the knowledge that Democrats were all atheists and agnostics and were thus unable to be trusted; they took over the news media to spread their lies, their propaganda and their message, corrupt and completely untrue allegations and tried to completely suppress the truth in every area of communication.

If this isn't the earliest history of the National Socialism which became the Third Reich, I don't know what is. We are not to the point where we have killed many of those who are risks to the regime, but we are at a stage where the people in this country are weak enough to be persuaded that the US has been infiltrated by dissenters, those who would harm our country, but whose faces are the same as their own. The Nazis would be very proud of this current doublespeak--they would have been able to sit and laugh with the major players in our administration and joke about how easy it has been to make people here believe all the lies, all the notions presented to them from the Neocons, and to wonder how long it will be before the final coup d'etat is made.

Comparing us to the Nazis is not something to be taken lightly, and there is a measure of hesitation which we must make when we do make such a bold statement. But ultimately, we are definitely in the throes of a group and regime which flatters itself in just such a way, anyhow.

[katty]

1. My observation for years

...they're on full blast now.



>I think a comparison to the earlier Nazi party is right on. It didn't come full blown from the minds of Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels or Goehring--it was a slow process, each step an endeavor that they would sneak by the people cunningly, and eventually even the most normal people were drawn into the web of collusion.

[jerry611]

2. Oh brother, here we go again

I've talked to people who lived through the holocaust. I've talked to people who lived through Nazi Germany. And there is absolutely no comparison between the US and the Nazis. None at all.

[Kellanved]

3. Oh, there are comparisons galore

There is just a lack of actual similarities to base such comparisons.

[deaniac21]

9. My coffee just came up through my nose! You get my vote for

today's 'King of the one-liners' award!

[primavera]

53. What, because Bush doesn't have a moustache?

How can you say there are no similarities? How similar do we have to be before it's similar enough to start causing alarm? Can we feel really great that we have nothing in common with totalitarian regimes because our concentration camp isn't as large as Auschwitz? Because we only torture people to death rather than gassing them in showers? Fine, so we differ from totalitarian regimes in the degree to which we carry out certain policies, but there are an alarming number of policies we now practice which we share with totalitarian regimes and which are not generally practiced in democratic states. But we don't need to concern ourselves about that because we haven't yet carried those policies through to the same extremes? I guess that kind of explains how totalitarian states manage to develop even in this day and age without their populations protesting too much: everyone's so sure that they're different, that what happened in other countries could never happen in their own country. You should really read some Hannah Arendt sometime.

[Kellanved]

56. This just goes in circles

The Nazi administration used conditions, which are simply not present in America. There is no point in using the "if you ignore a,b and c; but highlight d,e and f, you'll see that x equals u" line of argumentation.

There can be government criminality short of the nazis; I know it hurts the American ego, but there is no need to go for the superlative.



Oh, I second the reading suggestion. But don't try making Arendt your Nostradamus.

[primavera]

57. Sure

But you seem to be suggesting that every letter in the alphabet from a to z must be a perfect match before one can begin to draw comparisons. A,B, and C were different in Mussolini's Italy than they were in Hitler's Germany; that doesn't change the fact they were both fascist states.

[Hekate]

60. I see more in common with the former USSR, actually

I tend to avoid the Nazi comparison for a lot of reasons. There are definitely some historical lessons to be learned about how they came to power and their brilliant use of propaganda, but we seem to be heading in the direction of George Orwell's "1984" society instead.

The entire Bush regime reminds me more and more of the old Soviet Union.

Lies, going into denial, secrecy, denial of the obvious, pulling all government functions into a massive central bureaucracy, stifling innovation, stifling free press and free discourse, record-keeping of ordinary people's activities on an unprecedented scale, advancement based on who you know and if you know where the bodies are buried.... and did I mention the incompetence?

It just goes on and on. The Bush regime is even building a Gulag Archipelago, as we know.

Gods help us as we fight this evil.

Hekate

edited to add:
The comparison to the takeover by the Nazis is not totally off the mark. In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq I had three random encounters with elderly Europeans who lived through WW II and in the case of my mother-in-law, the Holocaust. Each of them spontaneously told me they were getting flashbacks to the 1930s in Europe, the implied reason being the war-fever and propaganda infecting the US, which had been their home for the past half century.

[babylonsister]

4. Then why do we feel like fascism is heading this way swiftly? nt

[jerry611]

10. Fascism and Nazism is not the same

Fascism can take its form from any ideology. Nazism is a national socialist movement. Fascism is the ultimate control of the people by the state. Some people define communism as a form of fascism. Because you would have ultimate control of the population and the means of production by the state. (ie: Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, China, etc...) You can argue that those nations were or are in a state of fascism.

[AllieB]

14. "Nazism is a national socialist movement"

Nazism has NOTHING to do with socialism. That is a right-wing talking point I've heard over and over. Nazism is fascism.

Here's a link to the 14 defining charateristics of fascism:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

The USSR, Cuba, and China do not have those charateristics. They are dictatorships, but not fascist ones.

[jerry611]

22. Straight from the dictionary

Nazism:
"the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the führer"
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Nazism

The Nazis did push a domestic socialist agenda. He used the socialism as a means to establish control. Control public education, you will control ideas. Control the media, you will control the flow of information. And etc, etc...

You look at China, Cuba, or North Korea...you see massive control of the media. Massive control of public education. Suppression of free speech. Total disrespect for civil liberty. And those are communist countries. That, my friend, is fascism.

[AllieB]

29. The Nazis may have used the term socialist, but they weren't socialist

in its true definition. It is purely fascist.

Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/socialism

There was nothing collective about Nazi Germany. It was a CORPORATIST government. Again, I suggest you read william Shirer, and the 14 defining points of fascism:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

#9 Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

In Nazi Germany:
http://encyclopedia.figureout.info/wikis/en/Fascism_and_ideology.htm

Industries and trusts were not nationalised in Nazi Germany, with the exception of private rail lines (nationalised in the late 1930s to meet military contingencies). The only private holdings that were expropriated were those belonging to Jews. These holdings were then sold or awarded to businessmen who supported the Nazis and satisifed their ethnic and racial policies. Military production and even film production remained in the hands of private industries whilst serving the Nazi government, and many private companies flourished during the Nazi period. The Nazis never interfered with the profits made by such large German firms as Krupp, Siemens AG, and IG Farben.
Your understanding of socialism smacks of Faux news and right-wing revisionist history. I don't have time to educate people who can't follow links and educate themselves. Have a nice weekend.

[IChing]

15. No once again you ignorantly confuse totalitarism and fascism....

Both are not mutually inclusive to each other.

I don't want to be your history research monkey.

[jokerman93]

48. nobody here is anybody's monkey

And any political system can be used as a weapon against the sovereignty of its citizens. Since 2000, The sovereignty of the American people and our constitution has been systematically attacked and dismantled in ways that recall the start of any number of atrocious regimes in history. Quibbling about who can put a finer distinction on the definition of different forms of state control is silly and entirely beside the point.

True enough, our troops aren't storming into our houses in the middle of night, murdering our families and dragging us off to be tortured and killed in prison. But far too many reports of just this kind of standard M.O. have come in over the years since the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. Never mind the insurgent death squads our invasion gave genesis to. It's our soldiers - our government - doing it every day too. In our name and the name of liberty.

--But hey, that's just a technicality, right? We're not doing it to anybody here, so it's not the same thing.

Don't forget the context is global now, not national as it was in the days of the third reich. The neocons want the world - just like the enemies they constantly invent or inflate for our consumption. They're trying to engineer a global shift from a nation-state to a global corporate-state paradigm over the next century. That vision is as far reaching as the transition that occurred when polity began its shift from the city-state to the nation-state nearly a thousand years ago. The nazis had just such a far reaching vision of world transformation too. No comparison?

The fact is it's our soldiers and our neocon policies over there that have been trying and failing to start the cascade of conquest in the middle east. From the devastation (and arguably genocide) at Falluja to the prison hell of Abu Graib, unimaginably brutal tactics are being used as a matter of policy right under the noses of the American people. All while we're increasing bullied, muzzled and disoriented here at home by a government that refuses to represent us in favor of the long term goals of powerful multinational corporations.

Yep. Just business as usual. I'm still free to go to the mega mall and consume all the cheap useless crap I want. So I guess if the government uses brutal scorched-earth tactics against nations of godless brown people on the other side of the world who have treasures and resources we want - well that's just not as bad as what the nazis did to their own undesirables.

Yeah, no comparison. It's all cool.

Back to sleep.

:sarcasm:
J

[nolabels]

18. We are in the grips of fascism but the leaders wish it were Nazism........

by other names of course. You can also argue that the reason so many of them so called communist countries have found it easier to open up is the turn of global markets and their host governments to top down hierarchies. They feel safe others share the same views as them now. They all ignore the views of ordinary citizens of their land to pursue ideology (hopefully at their own demise). Like most other human interactions, it's about gaining power and the upper hand over others.

[Lars39]

5. And others here have talked with those who have survived,

and they have remarked on the similarities.

[IChing]

8. I have German, Danish and Austrian friends in academic circles

You have not back anything up with your opinion,
They see it quite differently and see major similarities in the push for power.

We have on our side of the family those that died in Danish concentration camps.
It doesn't have to be about the jews to make the similarities cognizant.

[AllieB]

11. You need to read William Shirer's "Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich"

Between 1933 and 1935, the Nazis began eroding civil liberties and imprisoning their political and ideological enemies. The Final Solution didn't kick into high gear until 1941/42. Until Germany invaded Czechoslovakia, many Americans either supported or turned a blind eye to the Nazi regime. There are many similarities between the Enabling Act of 1933 and the Patriot Act. The similarities are that both were passed after an act of terrorism, both were passed quickly, and both limited civil liberties with the supposed purpose of protecting the people. That's a fact you cannot deny. Secret prisons in Europe, innocents held without due process in Gitmo, and torture of innocents at Abu Ghraib help complete the picture of a country spiraling down the fascist hole.

To be honest, at first I didn't believe there were any similarities. Knowing Holocaust survivors does not make one an expert on all things Nazi. I live in a town north of Boston with a substantial elderly Jewish population, and most of the old folks that I've spoken with fear Bush.

[smitty]

40. The Enabling Act was an amendment to the German constitution

unlike the Patriot Act. The Enabling Act needed a 2/3 majority of the Reichstag, the vote was 441 to 94 and the Reichstag effectively voted itself out of existence as a democratic body. The Enabling Act gave Hitler the power to rule by decree for four years. It was the first step toward Hitler's acquisition of absolute power.

[mdmc]

21. i don't think that you have

had these discussions.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

23. And one day when you find yourself a compulsory guest...

...in indefinite detention in one of Halliburton's reeducation camps, you'll probably maintain the comparisons are STILL not valid because Halliburton serves better food than the Nazis served their jewish captives, plus you get an hour of recreation every day and the Nazis would never have been so generous. WAKE UP!!!!

[AndyTiedye]

27. Not Yet. (But Those Living In Iraq May Not Be Able to Tell the Difference)

[Bigmack]

58. Nothing like the Nazis....

the Nazis could make the trains run on time.

These guys could fuck up a Jello sandwich!

[Alamom]

6. I believe Randi Rhodes addressed this yesterday. My husband

heard it, I didn't. (I may have misunderstood. He listens to her show during his commute home) Anyone else hear the interview she did on Thursday evening?

[AllieB]

42. IBM Punch Cards to track enemies

yes, it was scary.

[Asgaya Dihi]

7. Fascism or despotism yes, Nazi not really

I've seen creeping fascism for a while here and it's not so hard to show that, but when you mention Nazi's they want to see people goose-stepping and concentration camps. There's an old video that was made just after the second word war called Despotism (1946)which describes what they were fighting against, and pretty well what we are today. It's worth a look, that's what they thought it meant after just dealing with Hitler and the rest.

http://www.archive.org/details/Despotis1946

[Dunvegan]

41. Thank you for the movie link...

Great WWII info film...but they really make a case for us being down the Ole Despot Creek pretty far...paddleless.

[petgoat]

12. Absolutely no comparison. Silly silly idea.

Everybody who's watched old war movies know that Nazis go around saying

"May Ay See Your Paeppers, Pleese!" and "Vee Haf Veys of Maekingk You Talk."

Our guys are nothing like that. They say "Would you please verify this information?"
and "Hey buddy, you can make it easy on yourself or make it hard on yourself, but
it's going to turn out the same either way."

Absolutely no comparison.

[TexasLawyer]

17. LOL!!!

Very good point!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

26. Well said. nt.

[TexasLawyer]

13. The fourteen common threads of fascism

we have 'em all covered.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4113.htm

Number 7 is currently the big news item--

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

[C_U_L8R]

16. Three Words of The Fourth Reich

New World Order

Novus Ordo Seclorum - New Order of the Ages

[mdmc]

19. a very well written OP. Thanks for sharing

k/r

[Alamom]

20. Randi Rhodes 5-11-06 . Caller on comparison to Nazi Germany

http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/

Nazi Germany
(5-11-2006)
Randi talks to a caller who gave us some insight as to how Nazi Germany functioned, and how if we aren’t careful, Bush will start abusing his power even more, and we won’t realize until it’s too late! You won’t believe what you’ll learn! Listen here.

(mid-page audio)



I couldn't get this to load, but as I said up thread, my husband heard this live last evening and was impressed with the message.

[Kazak]

24. Right on.

Rec'd

The question is, how to structure governments so that these types of take-overs are not possible?

[Asgaya Dihi]

28. I've thought about that and it's a tough one

The problem is how do we keep peoples attention on something that isn't a problem? So their grandfathers fought a war for freedom or rights, but things have looked pretty good for a couple of generations as far as we can tell so we get lost in modern culture and lulled to sleep like sheep.

How do you keep people aware one generation after another that if they do go to sleep it will happen? They've got to care before the problem happens, not let the voter turnout and citizen participation drop off to next to nothing and allow a takeover of the system. It can happen in any type of government that I can think of.

[Stand and Fight]

25. We need to discuss this issue.

The people who come in here and try to shut down this discussion really ought to ask themselves -- regardless of their opinion -- what harm is done in discussing this issue as opposed to the harm that is done by NOT discussing it. It is potentially much more dangerous to remain quiet, because the one fact that cannot be denied is this: something is seriously wrong with America. Discussing what is wrong with it will take many forms and if doing a comparison and contrast to Nazi Germany is necessary to go in the direction of fixing our country, then so be it. America is well worth it. We cannot tolerate things continuing as they have for the past six years. It must stop and we'd damn well better step up to the plate.

Recommended for the Greatest Page.

[jerry611]

30. Discussing it is fine

But you go out with signs that say that Bush or that the GOP are Nazis, you are going to be laughed at by the majority of people...even fellow liberals and democrats.

I know conservatives and they are not Nazis. I know Bush supporters and they are not Nazis. Even the radical ones arn't. The Nazis killed over 10 million people and started a war that killed 30 million more. Bush might have killed some people, but not anywhere near that many. The Nazis also rebuilt Germany into a superpower within a decade. Bush and the GOP seems to be dismantling a super power within a decade. Hitler is said to have an IQ around 150 according to historians, Bush is under 90.

Many consider the Nazis the worst and most evil regime in world history. I seriously doubt we will ever see anything close to that again. At least not in our lifetimes.

[petgoat]

35. "the worst and most evil regime in world history."

One big difference:

Germany was just one power, balanced by comparable powers in the USSR, France, the UK,
the USA, and Japan. Hitler's fantasies of global conquest were possible to indulge
only because of the Germans' romantic view of themselves as superior beings with a
glorious historical destiny to fulfill.

The collapse of the USSR made the USA the greatest imperial power the world has
ever seen. Its military might is balanced only by the entire rest of the world
combined. See chapter 7 of The New Pearl Harbor for discussion of PNAC's
ambitions for the weaponization of space.

The "Vision for 2020" document engages in no sentimental propaganda about the need for the United States to dominate space for the sake of promoting democracy or otherwise serving humanity. Rather, it says candidly, if indiscreetly: "The globalization of the world economy...will continue with a widening between 'haves' and 'have-nots.'" In other words, as America's domination of the world economy increases, the poor will get still poorer while the rich get still richer, and this will make the "have-nots" hate America all the more, so we need to be able to keep them in line. We can do this through what the advocates of this program originally called "Global Battlespace Dominance." Because some people found this term too explicit, the preferred term today is "Full Spectrum Dominance" (which provided the tide for a previously quoted book by Rahul Mahajan). This term means not only being dominant on land, on the sea, and in the air, as the US military is already, but also having control of space. Discussing this "American project of global domination associated with the weaponization of space," Richard Falk says: "The empire-building quest for such awesome power is an unprecedented exhibition of geopolitical greed at its worst, and needs to be exposed and abandoned before it is too late."

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/141355.php

Our technology makes the USA much more dangerous than Hitler's armies ever were.
Invaders, after all, are changed by the countries they invade. Social Engineering
and Behavioral Science have come a long way since 1942, and such ham-handed techniques
as the Nazis used (under the economic challenges of global war) are no longer necessary
to maintain control.

[Stand and Fight]

36. Let them laugh! What are you so scared of?

Think of the story of the boy that cried wolf. What harm ever came to the people in the story? The real harm came to the boy in the end. Well, so be it. If people here or else where are willing to discuss this issue, then you should not attempt to stifle that discussion. After all, this is a "discussion board" where people can exchange ideas, thoughts, and opinions -- preferably freely. However, in Bush's America, freedom is quickly becoming a relative term. Those who think everything is fine believe they have their freedom; conversely, those who think that something is wrong -- myself included -- believe that we are being stripped of our freedoms. (Freedom is on the march indeed!)

Furthermore, no one here is even talking about going out with signs. While I will submit to the fact that some people have done that, is that not their RIGHT in a truly free country?

No one has said directly that conservatives or Bush supporters are Nazis; however, the comparison ought to be made. There is no danger in that. I fail to see what you are so scared of when said comparison is made. Once more it is relative. What we do know is this -- there is a Patriot Act, there has been illegal wire-tapping, and this president has willfully chosen to ignore and violate our laws. Are you so illusioned as to think that it takes killing any amount of people to make his actions morally and legally questionable? Tell me, Jerry, assuming that is your name, will you regulate morality and violation of the law into a game of numbers because the Bush regime has not reached the millions? Tell me, Jerry, will you deem their actions unworthy of examination because nearly 2500 American lives and untold THOUSANDS of Iraqi lives have been lost? Tell me, Jerry, how many people are imprisoned in our prisons around the globe? Tell me, Jerry... I dare you. I challenge you to answer these questions!

As to Bush's intelligence. I'm not of the camp that believes that he is as dumb as he seems. Personally -- and thank God for freedom because I can have this opinion, at least for the moment -- I believe it is all a big act. It seems to me that Bush and his cronies have outsmarted us -- his opponents -- time-and-time again in the last six years. It's foolish to try to say that correlation proves causation for that matter, for while Hitler may have had an IQ -- another relative term -- of "around 150," though I have studied him extensively and cannot recall him ever having taken an IQ test, he was still defeated in the end. My opinion or your opinion of Bush's IQ doesn't make a damn bit of difference, when it doesn't take a high IQ to destroy. What it takes is a lack of morals and reckless ambition. Bush most certainly has an abundance of that, my friend.

Sure the Nazis were horrible. Yes, the Nazis were evil, but are you telling me that it will take the death of over 6 million Iraqis and US service members before you begin to raise concerns or draw comparisons? I certainly hope not, because if that is the case and you are truly in the majority, then surely we are lost.

I cannot recall who said it, but I believe it is an apt quote to apply to this discussion, "Evil men triumph when good men do nothing."

[Gronk Groks]

49. Maybe they are not Nazis, but they have become fascists....

...small "f" fascists maybe, but definitely trending toward a dictatorship run by an oligarchy of corporations.

You would of thought that they could of afforded somebody a little more competent, however.
Guess they wanted to make sure they could keep him under control.

[Pachamama]

61. My Grandparents escaped Nazi Germany and yes, the comparisons are very

real and very accurate....

So, if I follow your argument, because Hitler supposedly had an IQ of 150 and Bush 90, there is no comparison? Or because you know "conservatives" and "Bush Supporters" who are nice people and think what Hitler and the Nazis was wrong, there are therefore no comparisons to be made either? HUH?

My grandparents left Germany shortly after all hell broke loose after Kristall Nacht occurred. We are not jewish, but my Grandparents were intellectuals and had many jewish friends who were business merchants and teachers. When they saw what was happening and how bad it was getting they high tailed it out with their family out of the country. They were able to leave with the clothes on their back and whatever they could carry. Fortunately for them, they had money and funds outside of the country and enough jewelry and funds to bribe their way out.

While they are not alive now, the comparisons are very valid. My Grandparents had many discussions with me about how the rise of Hitler and the Nazis came to be. It wasn't overnight and it wasn't obvious to most people that things were getting bad or dangerous until it was too late. My grandparents left early enough. They saw what was going on, but there were plenty of naysayers who doubted the rumored intentions of Hitler and the Nazis early on. And even after my grandparents left, there were still people who "doubted" it was "all bad" or going down a dangerous path. My grandparents had heard early rumors about the concentration camps (then referred to as work camps or detainment camps for the communists who were trying to undermine the Reich) but so many doubted they were being done will ill intent or that people were being violated or treated inhumanely.

The Nazis were one of the worst and most evil regimes in recent world history. And I'm sure that as they were rising in power during the early years that no one ever thought they would become so bad and become the Ghengis Khan's of the 20th Century....Well, we are now in a new Century and this group of "Project for the New American Century" folks might not look so bad, but we are in the early stages.

It can happen here. And according to the lessons I learned from my Oma and Opa, its when the kind of things that are happening RIGHT NOW get ignored, that is when we are at the greatest risk of it going worse. Now is also the most critical time for people to see the dangers and to stop it before it gets worse.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

32. Your post raises an interesting...

...question that I've never seen addressed in any substantive way on these 'early years Nazi Germany/current day America' comparison threads and that is: What is it really, that drives such a strong impassioned effort to stifle these discussions. Why should it bother them so much?

[Asgaya Dihi]

34. Why assume it's stifled?

Nazi was a term for a specific group of people who performed a specific group of actions, it wasn't the style of government. We can easily have discussions about us maybe creeping in the same direction if we keep the discussion to the type of governments involved, but the more direct the comparison the more it gets distracted into petty details rather than into substance that matters such as how did we get here and how do we get out.

I don't see trying to keep it in a more productive vein as shooting it down, there are real problems to work on that shouldn't be lost in irrelevant details that will come up with specifics to Nazi's rather than to the general form of government such as despotism. Those can apply easily.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

37. I don't feel that I'm assuming...

...there is an effort to stifle these threads, I think that effort is obvious.

These efforts typically try to achieve this by pointing out such things as:

-BushCo hasn't exterminated 6 million people.
-BushCo hasn't implemented the draft as Hitler did.
-BushCo isn't rounding up members of the opposition party for imprisonment or execution.
etc, etc.

All true, but none of which invalidate the comparison. To compare and contrast is NOT to equate and this fact appears to be lost on altogether too many people who visit and post on these threads.

That said, I agree with the gist of your post. The discussion should center around the creep toward 1933 Nazi Germany and this can hardly be done without making comparisons.

We can learn from history, or we can relive it. Our choice.

[Asgaya Dihi]

43. Thanks

There are comparisons no doubt, it's going to come up somewhat at least and I've talked about it with my wife as well. I just don't want to get lost in it and forget the point was to avoid it ourselves ;)

There's a lot to learn from history, I see a signs of the days of the robber barons coming back as well. They were libertarians in business at least, and we've got a strong streak of it in Government again. Not good when taken to extremes.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

47. It's interesting that our...

...government doesn't routinely publish a credible 'distribution of wealth' report. This, along with 'standard of living' is a very good indicator of how effectively a system of commerce and trade is serving society at large. What if they were to publish honest reports of this sort quarterly, and what if they'd been doing this for the last 30 years. Is there any doubt what the trends would show?

The robber baron days are returning, that's what they'd show and that's why the government will never publish such reports.

[Stand and Fight]

39. I believe, and I may be wrong, that the answer is simple.

The same fear that Bush and his ilk use to their advantage is the same fear that makes people want to run away from what they see in the mirror. It's fear and it's denial.

Have you ever had a friend who was in an abusive relationship? You ever see how reluctant they are to face up to the fact?

You ever had a friend who is addicted to drugs? You ever notice how reluctant they are to look at what they've become?

That's an elementary answer that is only the tip of the iceberg, but I believe that a close examination will yield satisfactory, and disturbing, results.

Fear eats up itself and begets more fear which in turn begets more fear and more and more... I believe you get the point. Our responsibility as citizens who see this is to fight like hell, to intervene, to break the cycle of denial and fear.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

45. I'm inclined to agree.

[petgoat]

33. We've lost the mirror that we once had in the USSR.

When people bullied dissidents, accusing them of psychiatric disorders, we could say "Oh that's
what the Russians do!"

When newspapers printed government propaganda verbatim, we could say "Oh just like Pravda."

When there was one-party rule with only token opposition we could say "Just like the Soviets."

When the government pulled a coverup or lied to the people we'd say "Just like the Soviets."


Another thing that's changed is that most of us are too busy all the time making a living to
have time to engage in informing ourselves, or to care about anything beyond our immediate
economic needs. In times past, there was a seasonal rythm to life, with busy planting and
harvest times, but slow winters. People had time to keep up with what was going on.

[Liberal Dose]

31. You're right. The Nazis didn't start out by rounding people up and killing

them. People forget how Hitler was able to gain control in the first place to do such a thing, and we all know what's said about those who forget the past.....

:nuke:

[Initech]

38. I used to avoid the nazi - republican comparisons for years...

But in this post 9/11 world where the religious right get word of our supreme court nominees before Congress does, where homosexuals and liberals get treated like dirt, where we dont even believe in science anymore, where people get their opinions fed directly to them through the use of fat-ass douchebags on AM hate radio and Fox "News", I can definately see those comparisons being made now.

Of course, the difference between the W cabal and the Third Reich is that the Third Reich only DREAMED of the technology we have now.

[Karenina]

51. EXACTAMUNDO!!!!

"Third Reich only DREAMED of the technology we have now."

May I recommend Octafish's "Know Your BFEE" to everyone on this thread?
The Nazis were "defeated" as their seedlings were quietly transplanted abroad. See: Operation Paperclip. The "Eugenics" movement was EXPORTED to Germany and FUNDED BY U.S. "elite" interests. Prescott Bush (who should have been hanged for TREASON saving us all the misfortune of his spawn among us) FUNDED THE NAZI WAR MACHINE. IBM helped keep the records. Now they've "learned" something from all those carefully kept records and nasty photos. KEEP IT UNDER THE RADAR!!!

For example, set a Medicare policy (just one of many) that results in THOUSANDS OF DEATHS through plausible "incompetence" and VOILA! Lots of "useless eaters" out of the way and unaccounted for! MISERY ACCOMPLISHED.

Many Jews are emotionally attached to the supremacy of their victimhood (which is understandable albeit myopic).

Germans are just as strongly attached to the supremacy of their ogrehood.

Americans are inextricably super-glued to the supremacy of their good-guyhood.

Put 'em all together and whaddya get? Eine MENGE von DUMMKÖPFEN who are like the blind men and the elephant, unable to grok that IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN!!!! :SIGH:

[enigma000]

44. In that case, do you regret the USSR losing the Cold War?

If the US is turning into a fourth reich, I myself, would have greatly preferred the Soviets winning the Cold War. The US under Soviet occupation would have gradually been reformed into a socialist state.

Perhaps that wouldn't be pleasant but its would be better than a nazi future.

[emcguffie]

46. I think you're absolutely right.

Yes, they've been planning this -- I'm afraid to call it a takeover, but it is that, and establishment of a family dynasty, which would not have to really legitimately be elected. And no, we Americans would not want to exterminate any particular People, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

I certainly don't think he'd raise any real objections.

Honestly, I think they've been working on this since before JFK. Get rid of that dynasty, create their own, get rid of all regulation, destroy democracy, promote super consolidation of all power into the hands of a few corporate friends, and eventually they will probably seize a lot of our property and just run the world. UNless, of course, we figure out a way to stop them.

I remember, when I was a child, my father complaining about the loss of family-owned newspapers, and good reporting. That was in the sixties. Family-owned newspapers is why we once had good reporting. For example, the Arkansas Gazette (I think was its name), the paper in Little Rock that took an editorial position strongly in support of integrating whatever college it was, sorry it's not coming immediately to mind. There was a big ruckus over it. It was not a popular position, not with his advertisers, not in the city, but it was an independent paper, and they could say what they wanted to say. And they did.

This is why I kind of keep mentioning independently owned newspapers. If somebody with enough money established one, could it protect itself from being taken over? I don't know very much about business. I've asked that before, and it may have been answered, but I can't look at my posts at this time. Maybe soon.

I certainly would have called such thinking wacko not too long ago, but now -- it's the only reasonable way, to me, to view the big picture of the last 50 years.

[PATRICK]

50. The extermination question

has not been delved into but using the same guidelines that have led us to SEEING the monstrosity of takeover I would venture to say that blacks- and later Jews- are in fact in great jeopardy. Muslims worldwide and ME peoples in general would like be consumed in a corporate War of the Roses. Those who now think of themselves as players while their people wither and die cannot envision this anymore than Stalin could envision Hitler's betrayal even a time AFTER the German troops shot their way across the border.

I know we are reeling from what we have to contend with already and the risk of engaging in new conspiracy investigations seems hardly necessary, but yes, take a look at this.

The nuclear proliferation patterns among undesirables. Making Israel eternally hated in the region and complicit in crimes and in the real world very very likely to be abandoned once their role in the oil game runs out. The assisted desertification of Africa in particular and the unchecked AIDS plague. How blacks are still treated in the US and getting worse in real state policy.

I think the targets are broad and sweeping like everything else in the grand scheme of things. The eventual clarity has already begun. Global warming and competition will spur this bigotry of the world rulers who will turn on the darker skinned members of the club at their leisure.

[sproutster]

52. What about NO? But beyond that... How about the mentally ill

That are murdered with impunity by law officers?

A preachers wife goes one step further then one of the killed mentally ill, and she is simply escorted off of the plane.

F' that -- It has begun.

[PATRICK]

54. But it does get worse

because at this particular time the entire human species if not the biosphere is threatened with simple extinction. The best that can be expected from the mindset of those mainly in charge is the Ice Age remedy. Hole up and wait in a cave. Except that is not enough.

Why is the cave man strategy the only thing left after centuries of feverish incredible scientific development? because the people who set the survival policy have totally abuse every single thing that could be used to save mankind.

If there was cheap safe energy, a cure for cancer, nano-this or digital-that there is only one mindset that moves in on them. How can they be used to destroy and control people. How can they make me a buck. How can I keep this from getting out to the people. How can i keep the revolutionary benefits from causing- a revolution? If you gave a GOP pol a thousand dollars to build an orphanage when will the benefit of getting such a worthy goal filter down from the first mindset? maybe never or maybe in a twisted blighted form that causes more harm than benefit.

With people like this in charge we MUST all die, including themselves. Giving them power is like giving a crack addict a blank check and a gun. The chamber of horrors will have only one exit in the modern age when the piper's due is the destruction of the ecosphere and the poisoning and plaguing and slaughtering of people as the only path we are allowed to take.

It is not sane. It is not legal. It is not conventional wisdom. It is not general, inevitable, unchanging human nature. It is being led by the worst and finding out what that means the hard way.

And maybe not stopping them in time. Or not doing the real work of humankind even if we do.

[jokerman93]

59. K&R

:kick:

[gulliver]

55. Wouldn't it be the Fourth Reich?

Just sayin'.