My only question about the "They're Taking Our Jobs" excuse

[Beacho]

Why wasn't this a problem in the nineties, when they're were MORE illegals than their are now?

Phony bullshit manufactured crisis.

The number of illegals in this country has gone down since the mid eighties, not up. Yet you continually hear about OMG!!!111!!! Invazuns!!!! Oh Noes!!!111!!.


This is a made up crisis designed to divide the elctorate, with new improved craptastic stats! New improved brown people to scare you with so you don't pay attention to outsourcing, corporations raiding the treasury, or taking away your rights.

Wake the hell up

P.S. Dear Trolls, go start your own thread

[Vinnie From Indy]

1. Long on claims and short on links

Any proof about "illegals" being MORE numerous in the 90's than now? Links?

[FreakinDJ]

2. Its not an excuse

It does surpress wages

[High Plains]

19. Your chart doesn't prove anything.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Gee, are there any other reasons unionization has decreased?

Right to work laws, decline of the industrial economy, union busting...nah, blame the Mexicans.

[JuniperLea]

No one is blaming the Mexicans

Our government did this to us. The Mexicans are pawns to the corporations. If anything, the government is stirring up "humanitarian" emotions in people so that anytime someone speaks out against opening our borders or lowering the pay for jobs and giving them to illegals, we get called racist. It's bullshit. And you bought into it~!

[High Plains]

34. I don't need to buy into anything, thank you.

What I don't buy into is that this complex international social phenomenon is simply a corporate plot. We have millions of undocumented workers in this country because millions of people made individual decisions--the immigrants decided to take their chances in a foreign land, the people who hire them decided it was what they wanted to do, the people who happily pay $6.95 instead of $9.95 for lunch decided to look the other way at that brown-skinned dishwasher...

And I have no link, but I suspect that most of these workers are not being hired by giant corporations, but instead by farmers, janitorial companies, small contractors. In other words, we have met the enemy and he is us.

Frankly, I don't see a big problem with current levels of immigration. It seems like the main down side is a single digit decrease in wages of non-high school graduates, which is not a good thing, but could perhaps be remedied by regularizing the undocumented so they can protect their own labor rights.

If you're concerned about overpopulation in LA, how about keeping those damned Anglos from moving there?

[JuniperLea]

39. Check the statistics then tell me again...

Show me a farm that isn't owned by a giant conglomerate corporation. Show me a janitorial service that isn't run by a corporation or a building owner, which also means it could be a corporation.

The fact remains, companies lower the wage and hire someone who will accept that wage.

[High Plains]

49. I know plenty of farms that are owned and operated by families.

Maybe you don't have a lot of them in LA.

A janitorial service may well be a corporation--that's how business is done in this country. But calling Manny's Janitorial with its two vans and six workers "corporate America" is deceptive, no? Similarly, landscaping services, restaurants, and constuction subcontractors are small businesses, not "corporate America."

Actually, I don't know any better than you do what percentage of undocumented workers are working for big corporations (i.e. Tyson's) as opposed to ma-and-pa small businesses; I just know what I see with my own eyes.

Yes, companies want to pay the lowest wages possible. That's why it's important to protect the rights of workers--all workers--by regularizing their status so they can legally fight for their labor rights.

[JuniperLea]

58. Perspective is everything

I live in Los Angeles County and I work in downtown Los Angeles. I've lived in the belly of the corporate beast around here for over 20 years. What goes on here may not be what goes on elsewhere. I can only tell you what I see on a day to day basis. And I'm telling you two things. One - Los Angeles is one of the first cities to suffer when we have an influx of immigrants. And, two - we are stretched to the limit on resources... we don't have enough for the people we have here right now. Not enough water, sewers, roads, sanitation, schools, police, etc.

Bush is putting 5k troops on our boarder. I can only guess what his plan is, but if it has anything to do with letting more people into THIS area, Los Angeles will soon be indistinguishable from any poor Mexican city. Our standards will be lowered to that degree without question. We simply do not have the resources to support the number of people we have right now.

Ok, three things:)

Big corporations run everything in LA. There are only a few seedy remains of small businesses. Construction=corporations. Janitorial services=corporations... that is the fact from where I sit on the 18th floor of a downtown highrise... and from my nearly 50 years of experience being an Angelino.

So if people say, fuck it, let 'em all in... LA will equal Tijuana in no time flat. So fuck LA.

[FreakinDJ]

120. That is the biggest problems

The companies (big and small) employing illegals are cheating everyone in this equation

There are plenty of fine immigration programs available that arn't being used because these employers don't want to pay the fees or go through the hoops of complieing with them.

Its not about the visas, the people being exploited it is about the cheats

And yes, my mother's side of the family is several generations of farmers. My cousin owns-works 400 acers outside of Merced. In fact when I was yougn I was sent down there every summer to work myself. I've cleaned tons of cow shit out of milk barns with a fire hose and never once did i see my uncle employ illegal workers to increase his profits

[amandabeech]

176. The last I read, the "damned Anglos" are leaving.

They're moving to the inter-mountain West.

You're getting your wish. Just be patient.

[Solon]

46. Rhetoric matters...

When someone says, "But they are TAKING our JOBS!" I see white sheets and burning crosses, but that's just me. The reason is simple, THEY aren't the ones taking the jobs, the corporations are EXPLOITING them for the SOLE purpose of increasing their PROFITS at the expense of ALL workers. They LOVE the idea that people demonize those who are MOST exploited in this country, because that divides us, we play right into their hands with all this rhetoric.

[mac56]

47. DING DING DING We have a winner!

Very well put.

[FreakinDJ]

61. You are absolutely right

Everyone fails to realise this would not have been allowed to go on as long as it has if some one was not making a very large profit.

But don't limit it to large corporations, because the problem of employers using illegals to aviod paying Tax, workers comp, SSI, and health benifits goes much further then just that. Even small LLCs, Contracting firms, Food stores are doing it. Sure keep 80% of the employees above board. The other 20% makes the profit fat.

But to think they are working primarily above board, paying into SSI is just pure nonsense. A large portion are partially if not fully under the table employed

[JuniperLea]

64. I agree to a point

Yes, absolutely, it is corporate America's fault, and the government's fault for pandering to the corporate cow. I do not agree that we are all blaming Mexicans. I do not agree that if you are against immigration you must be racist.

I am against amnesty and open borders because it will help no one in the long run. It will lower US standards to the point that they mirror the problems the immigrants are running from in Mexico. We simply do not have the resources. The further we stretch our economy and our resources, the less likely we will be able to help anyone else. It's a no win situation.

[Solon]

68. Look, I said I disagreed with the RHETORIC...

Understand, I'M against AMNESTY as well, but I do NOT agree with the xenophobic tendancies of the minutemen and other assholes like them. Words matter, plain and SIMPLE, if some white guy was bitching about unqualified people getting jobs because of their race, an anti-affirmative action rant, most REASONABLE people would assume he is a racist asshole, its a red flag. Those who complain that Mexicans or any other immigrant group are TAKING their jobs, its the same damned racist tendancies coming up to the surface, even if they don't use outright racist words, the meaning is the same.

[JuniperLea]

71. That is emotional warfare

being waged by the GOP. They are trying to make it sound as if we are all hard asses with no compassion for our fellow man. It's bullshit... we know it, they know it. All the emotion needs set aside and this issue needs to be looked at with some fiscal and resource responsibility.

[FreakinDJ]

128. I disagree

Those who complain that Mexicans or any other immigrant group are TAKING their jobs, its the same damned racist tendancies coming up to the surface, even if they don't use outright racist words, the meaning is the same.

You have a job making 70K a year and an employer can hire 2 illegal workers for 20K per year, your job is threatened pretty quickly. It doesn't matter if you Yellow, Red, Black, Brown or White. It is a matter of being able to have a descent standard of living, and provide for your family. Any more it is not agricultural jobs it is about any job in the service and manufacturing sector that is not legislatively protected with prohibitive licensing and documented compliance.

[Solon]

132. Yeah, but who is the threat?

People make it seem that Mexicans sneak into this country and literally steal the job as if they stole your car. This isn't the case, a third party, your employer, is the one who made that decision, not the Illegal Immigrant, and not you. So saying they STOLE your job is, at best, irrational.

[FreakinDJ]

135. trying to make ends meet

Tell that to the guy looking up from his check book trying to make ends meet. Add the increased gas prices to the mix, and Its kinda like “putting out a fire with gasoline” ain’t it.

Obviously they don’t walk in and strong arm anyone from their desk, work station or shovel. But then again talk to the college kid attempting to get a summer job this year and perhaps he can best describe the pressures applied on the employment landscape that you could accept.

Cry racist, racist, I see a racist ain’t gonna cut it my friend and it plays directly into Rovian politics at play here. What do you think the whole Iraq invasion was. If you think that was any thing less then anti-muslim hate your sadly mistaken.

To paraphrase a famous comedian – “the most uptight in need of a blow job white guy I ever knew”

[Solon]

137. So we move from one ploy to another?

Your answer is to feed the anger and have it lash out in nonconstructive ways. Are we to JUSTIFY the IRRATIONAL anger and hate that manifests, or are we to call it for what it is? NONSENSE.

[FreakinDJ]

139. I don’t see that

Where is “feed the anger and have it lash out in nonconstructive ways”

[Solon]

140. Let's see if I can explain it...

OK, the anger is directed at the WRONG people, and the lashing out is rhetoric talking about wasteful wall building which wouldn't accomplish shit, etc. The Minutemen are a perfect example of this, they are stupid fucks that can't see what is plainly in front of their noses. They should NOT be doing vigilante shit at the borders, that endangers lives, their's mostly. What they should have done, at the BEGINNING is start protests at the Corporate HQs of GM, Wal-Mart, and every other outsourcing and insourcing company. But they don't, instead its a five minute hate against another poor group of people exploited by those fucking fat cats in their goddamned gated communities who LAUGH at both groups.

[FreakinDJ]

141. Excuse me for assuming

I was assuming you would act similarly to me and read all the replies in a thread. I’ve been all over this thread discussing various aspects of the issue.

As far as the race card being played be groups (typically of republican persuasion) in the issue you are VERY CORRECT. The Minute Men are vile group of gun toting wack jobs promoting racism.

But the whole country the majority of which (I like to think so) is not racist. I feel it boils down to a majority of person’s ability to provide a living for their family. That well play hard on even the best of people when propaganda emerges suggesting the cost involved of illegal immigrants.

Prop: 167 (I think) 1996 in California was to deny all persons here illegally any and all government services, including their children’s ability to go to school. It was approved by as landslide, and later struck down by the CA Supreme court.

You would have a very very long road to tow if you want to change perceptions of the General public.

This issue is a party killer

[Solon]

143. You have more faith in American Citizens than I do...

I'm a White guy who, as a general rule, is prejudiced against whites. It almost never fails, I end up in a group of pure whites, and SOMEONE will mention words like "Nigger", "Wetback", "Slants", etc. and NO ONE but me will call them on it, whether its supposed to be a "joke" or just having a mean spirit. Right now I avoid such groups, perferring mixed groups just so I can to avoid fistfights. At this point in time, I can probably say I hate whites, but I simply don't have the energy for that.

[FreakinDJ]

146. What was the FBI psych profile on racial hate groups

FBI psych profile on racist

White – uneducated – poor.

I’ve always described it as a disease of the ignorant, and yes ignorance is on the rise these days in America.

But what alternative do you offer? We go screaming “Racist” at every argument in favor of restricting immigration and were going lose. At the same time those illegal immigrant workers are being equally (if not more) exploited by those who are really at the root cause of the problem (the employers).

Let me share a little true story.

Illegal worker at a food processing plant. He is working on the roof – falls off. Broken hip, broken arm, several cracked ribs, head contusion. They sent him to the hospital on Medicaid and before OSHA showed up, they snuck him out of the hospital, gave him $2000 cash and a ticket back to Mexico with the promise they would hire him back when he feels better.

Knowing full well he would never be able to work again from the injuries he sustained.

That was a Multinational Corporation – Fuji Foods

[Solon]

147. Actually, I want to shame them, and shame them relentlessly...

With stories like what you shared, and with other stories that are similar. There is no excuse for that attitude, I mean, I'm white, raised poor, self-educated(1 year college) and unemployed due to injury, I'm the POSTER BOY FOR BIGOTTED ASSHOLES. All other things being equal, I would have been put up on an Aryan Nation site as the TYPICAL member of that assholic organization. But I'm not, in fact, I'm the polar opposite of them. I'm not ashamed of my race, I don't believe in ancestrial or group shame or pride, probably why I'm not a patriot either, but seriously, we shouldn't coddle this attitude, its just so fucking FRUSTRATING that these motherfuckers are so fucking closeminded!

I'm tempted to create my own little anti-illegal exploitation group to counteract the bullshit that the stupid assed Minute Men spout. I just wish I could move, or even drive a fucking car, without pain. That's part of why I lash out, so sorry about that, my tolerance level for BS decreases exponentially due to constant physical pain. Of course, it could be just the fact that I'm a Mick with an attitude. :)

[Beacho]

151. That actually happens in IT

And it's not 'messicans' that are taking those jobs, it's imported labor under H1 visas that have been doing that since the mid nineties. Some inhabitant of N. Mexico isn't taking coding jobs away from tech workers.

[FreakinDJ]

165. Well aware of H1B visa programs

Yes they were lobbied for by the electronics industry. I believe they have even stepped into the debate saying they need to increase the number of workers allowed in under their pet programs.

Yes they inherently contain the very same employer abuse conditions we have been discussing with others concerning the Mexican immigrant workers as well. The “employer” at all times retains the implied threat of revoking their visa by terminating their job. So yes, they work for less money

Were they designed to drive down wages of working professionals, at the BS and MS computer sciences level, absolutely. Although I have friends with a PhDs in electronics engineering that when he demonstrates “How sexy Calculus is” makes me laugh.

But yes, soon as Huelit Packard they though they didn’t need him any more they canceled his job and subsequently he visa. They later offered him a job in Singapore at a much lower rate.

Any way you slice it, until we go after the employers with at least equal verbosity some would like to go after the illegal immigrants them selves we’re only perpetuating this crap

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Illegal immigration cost 25 million workers as much as $1900 yearly.

http://cis.org/articles/1998/wagestudy/wages.pdf

[Ms. Clio]

96. CIS is a rightwing source

NOT CREDIBLE.

[FreakinDJ]

125. So is the whole WEDGE issue

but none one is going to win an election running around screaming "Freeper...Freeper..Freeper links"

[Ms. Clio]

134. and nobody is going to win an election running around screaming

"the Mezcans are coming," either.

[FreakinDJ]

138. Correct you are

Some where about 2 dozen post ago I said some thing about the Dems need strong sensible answers to this equation.

But I do think, we – the Democratic party well be the losers if we get into the pissing match with them on their level.

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. They will if the opposition is running around screaming

"you buncha xenophobic, nativist, racist pukes! Who cares if you lost wages!"

[Ms. Clio]

153. if the xenophobic, nativist, racist puke shoe fits....

we don't need allies like that, either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. I don't find it fits all that well.

Calling the other 90% of the public childish names is not a way to win elections.

[Ms. Clio]

162. sorry, they are in fact scholarly and historical terms

and most certainly can be applied to far more than 90% of the public.

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. Will you please elaborate?

According to the study:

"About the Author: Steven Camarota received his Ph.D. in policy
analysis from the University of Virgnia. He is Resident Scholar at
the Center for Immigration Studies and holder of the Center’s
1997-1998 Fellowship in Immigration Studies, made possible by a
grant from the Henry Luce Foundation, Inc."

He looks bonafide to me, although I know nothing about the Henry Luce foundation save what they say on their website. :shrug:

[Ms. Clio]

152. an edit and an apology

sorry, I did post this on another thread:

According to RightWeb, CIS is the pseudo-intellectual arm of the rabid anti-immigrant organization, FAIR.

"The Center for Immigration Studies describes itself as "the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States." Founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), CIS is dedicated "to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

CIS describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists. However, CIS has achieved credibility with the media and in think tank circles because of its lack of the kind of strident anti-immigrant rhetoric associated with many restrictionist groups, its willingness to invite pro-immigrant voices to its forums, and the scholarly format of its reports.

Members of its board of directors are: Patrick Burns, Thomas C.T. Brokaw, George Grayson, David Simoz (chair and president), Carol Iannone, Otis Graham (co-chair), Peter Nuñez, Frank Morris, William Chip, Jacquelye Jackson, Vernon Briggs, Scott McConnell, and Willard Fair. Steven Camarota is director of research, and Mark Kirkorian (formerly a policy expert with FAIR) is executive director. Annual revenues in 2002 were $898,810. (1)

Origins, History, and Impact

The Center for Immigration Studies was founded in 1985 as a spin-off of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). Another FAIR spin-off is the Immigration Reform Law Institute, which functions as the litigation arm of FAIR, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center."

[lumberjack_jeff]

155. An edit and a thank you. n/t

[Ms. Clio]

156. please see the edited version

CIS is a rightwing think tank.

[Ms. Clio]

157. Here is the link to RightWeb

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1452

[primavera]

163. Southern Poverty Law also monitors them as a hate group...

... so their website includes a number of reports on CIS/FAIR's activities.

[Ms. Clio]

166. Thanks!

So glad to see you posting this information, too.

[primavera]

170. FAIR's a favorite nemesis of mine

I've been tracking their activities and associations for years now, there's just something about them that seems so evil, it just makes me furious. I know! It's that they remind me so much of Karl Rove and his outright lies.

[primavera]

160. Pardon me while I vomit

You're linking to a report by the Center for Immigration Studies, the "respectable think tank" arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, an anti-immigrant lobbying group which has established a consortium of right-wing hate groups for the purpose of bashing immigrants. Their members include the openly white supremacist American Patrol (home of the Minutemen), their partners include the pro-segregation Concerned Christian Citizens, and their funding is provided by the ultra right-wing Scaife Mellon Foundation and the Nazi eugenics foundation, the Pioneer Fund. CIS is famous for producing fantastic numbers on the alleged costs of immigrantion to workers and states by using grotesquely skewed methodologies which select only partial data which support their position and, even then, pointedly excluding every standard statistical correction in order to further inflate their distorted spindoctoring of reality.

So please. Don't stink up the room by bringing that putrid shit in here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

167. Do you have alternative sources?

I'm forced to agree with the disturbing pattern of financial support for CIS. Thanks for the links. At the same time, I find the fact that they get equal flack from both the corporatist republicans and the pro-illegal-immigrant left to be interesting.

Are there any other recent studies that indicate that the loss in wages faced by low income blue-collar americans is unrelated to illegal immigration?

Surely there's some progressive group out there that's studied the effects of immigration policy on working americans - I find it hard to believe that they all just don't care.

[primavera]

169. Absolutely

UC Berkeley economist David Card has done a lot of research on this topic. One of his recent articles I just found from a quick search is available at http://www.phil.frb.org/econ/conf/immigration/card.pdf. You should also consult the works of Shiela Croucher, a professor of political science at Miami University for a poli sci perspective. She published a book a few years back entitled Imagining Miami in which she applied every known poli sci and econ model she could find to the question of whether immigrants impacted US workers and ultimately found that there was no evidence whatsoever to support that they did in fact have the impact people expected them to have.

The thing about the economics of migration is that you can't just look at the labor market as static. For example, if we had a hypothetical economy of 100 people and there were 100 jobs, and 20 immigrants arrived and the economy grew by 20 jobs, there would still be the same 1 to 1 ratio of jobs to workers you had when you started. Unfortunately, the way most people tend to look at this issue is to assume that the 100 jobs remains constant and they suddenly have to be divided among the 100 natives plus the 20 migrants. But that's simply not reality. Reality is that the additional workers consume goods and services locally, creating opportunities for new positions to be created to meet the demand of the added people. If you're a place like CIS, this is one of the many ways you distort the numbers to suit your ideological purpose: you include the jobs consumed, but conveneintly neglect to mention the number of new jobs that were created.

There's a Harvard professor named George Borjas who works with CIS and has been trying to convince people for years that immigrants produce increases in social services and health care costs. If you look at his methodologies, though, you'll notice that they're similarly selective. For instance, one of Borjas' favorite tricks is to include the health care costs not just of illegal immigrants, but of their entire families, inclduing lawfully present and US citizen family members. So, if I'm an illegal immigrant and I marry a US citizen, now the health care expenses of every US citizen to whom I have become related gets added to my bill in Borjas' study. This is the sort of basic statistical correction that is so obvious, no first year stats student could possibly fail to notice it, yet Borjas pointedly fails to correct for it. But then, he's getting paid by CIS to write the study, so it should come as no surprise.

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. I found corroboration at the Economic Policy Institute

Which treats the wage suppression effect of immigration as being axiomatic.

http://epi.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp130

"Media coverage has downplayed these disappointing findings as being largely the result of a growing immigrant population.2 The reasoning behind this claim is that income failed to grow as much as expected due to the addition of more low-income families to the population through immigration. The implication is that the United States' lack of economic progress in regard to poverty or median income growth should not be of great concern-it wasn't the strong economy that failed to lift incomes, but rather the increase in low-income families from abroad that makes it appear like no progress has been made in these areas.

This intuition is by no means without merit. It is true that the immigrant share of the population increased over the decade, and that immigrants' incomes are, on average, lower than natives'. It is also the case that the increase in the immigrant share of the population can and has put downward pressure on overall income growth over time, a phenomenon we refer to as the "share effect."

The article goes on to make the case that the immigration of the '90's can only explain a portion of the drop in blue collar wages. One must conclude that the increases in immigration this decade have exacerbated the problem.

I find no reason to distrust EPI's motivations.

[primavera]

172. You left out the next paragraph...

... which reads:

"But the existence of the share effect by no means justifies citing immigration as the sole, or even the most important factor behind the less-than-favorable Census results. Without much more evidence, it is a mistake to simply conclude that, since immigration expanded and immigrants have lower incomes, the lack of progress must be due to immigration."

It therefore does not follow that "one must conclude that increases in immigration in this decade have exacerbated the problem" as it was never established that migration was ever a primary contributor to the problem.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about EPI, so cannot comment on the extent to which their article may be ideologically motivated.

But I would add one further note on the subject, and that is that there are probably about a bazillion things which contribute to the health of the labor market. Congress passed a law last year providing incentives to companies which fire their US workers and set up shop overseas - our taxpayer dollars at work, don't you love it? That law will almost certainly account for a loss of jobs in the US, but it has nothing to do with immigration. Healthcare costs increase and GM decides that its cheaper to use robots to built their cars than it is to pay workers wages and benefits. More jobs lost, but again, immigrants have nothing to do with it. The Federal Reserve Bank increases the prime lending rate and it becomes more advantageous for companies to save money rather than to hire workers, that too will produce an influx in the number of jobs which again will have absolutely nothing to do with immigration. My point is that, yes, we agree that the wages and conditions for US workers are deplorable and something needs to be done. But it would really suck to go after a group which was not responsible for the problem, let the responsible parties get off scott free, and consequently make no impact on resolving the problem.

I'm honestly not 100% how great an impact, if any, immigration has on the health of the US labor market - I'm an analyst, not an economist - but I do know that the bulk of the scholarly literature out there on the subject shows that, at most, immigration only produces a modest effect on US wages. On the other hand, outsourcing produces a very serious effect on US wages. It therefore only makes sense to me to go first after the known major contributors to wage depression before we start lashing out at groups which may have either a small impact on wages, or no effect at all.

[Bridget Burke]

78. Numbers USA--from our friends at RightWatch

NumbersUSA has close ties with other restrictionist organizations in which John Tanton of Social Contract Press has played a key role. Roy Beck founded NumbersUSA as a project under the nonprofit umbrella of U.S. Inc., an organization established by Tanton to spawn several dozen national, regional, and local groups dealing with immigration, language, culture, environmental preservation and education, and population.

According to Roy Beck, although NumbersUSA does rent office space to ProEnglish, “we don't deal with language as one of our issues” and “don't have any ties with any language organization.” Beck says that U.S Inc. never funded NumbersUSA, and he disputes the conclusion by the Southern Poverty Law Center that Tanton played a founding role in NumbersUSA, although he appreciates “John Tanton's hospitality and nurture.”...

While Beck and NumbersUSA are careful not to appeal directly to racist or nativist sentiments, they do support harsh treatment of illegal immigrants, including speedy deportations and sharply reducing access to political asylum and judicial hearings. In Beck's May 15, 2000 statement to the Immigration and Claims Subcommittee of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, Beck said NumbersUSA supports “the apprehension and finger-printing of every possible illegal alien, even if there aren't enough resources to deport most of them. This will not only be disruptive to their communities—especially if people are randomly pulled from the pool to go through the swift deportation system—but it will kick in the 10-year exclusion rule on them, preventing them from benefiting from any legal access in the United States.”

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1528

Another link to that fine, scholarly journal: "Social Contract"

A bit incestuous here....

[Ms. Clio]

100. LOL great work

They are all creepy kissing cousins!

[FreakinDJ]

124. See you pegged it and didn't even know it

—but it will kick in the 10-year exclusion rule on them, preventing them from benefiting from any legal access in the United States.”

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1528

See that was the 1996 Life act enacted during the Clinton admin. You suspend the ITIN provisions and all those that want to stay here, deserve to stay here, get to stay here.

See its not really so complicated for those that actually know how the system works and know the people involved.

But to susgest floks are racist because they protest increased cost associated with a situation caused by employers out to cheat the system alienates a very large portion of the working class. Unions who comprise 12 13% of voting block, (realistically 20% when you count their spouse) are going to vote enmass on this issue.

Racist are going to vote on this issue, and most likely the christian right will find a reason to vote on this issue.

To go around crying racist racist isn't going to do you any good.

This issue is a party sinker

[AllieB]

126. It's nice to see a voice of reason on the immigration issue

Thank you again, Bridget.

[Duer 157099]

3. maybe there were more jobs available then? dunno

people are stressing about unemployment these days, regardless of the official figures.

not sure what the comparable figures were for the 80s

[JuniperLea]

6. Yes, there were

The economy was much, much better in the 90's... ahem *coughclintoneracough*

[mac56]

4. I half agree, half disagree.

I disagree that the number has decreased since the eighties. All evidence I've seen indicates the opposite. But, of course, there's no real accurate way to tell.

I agree, though, that this is a phony bullshit manufactured crisis.

[FreakinDJ]

7. Ttry looking up %

The percentages of people able to afford to buy a home in high illegal immigrant areas vs: low illegal immigrant areas.

[mac56]

11. I suspect that's a spurious causality.

There can be a gazillion reasons why people may or may not be able to afford home ownership. Loads of them have nothing to do with immigrant population.

[FreakinDJ]

14. Suppressed wages would be No. 1

[mac56]

17. soooo.....suppressed wages are the result of immigration?

And only the result of immigration?

That's a stretch.

[FreakinDJ]

33. I didn't say ONLY

You are the 1 to say that

As far as major factor, Yes I would say that.

Your asking us to compete with lower wages and not to cry foul. You'll wind up losing 20-30% of the voting public

So why don't you just end it all and vote republican

[mac56]

35. Nice name calling, friend.

See post #24.

Don't lash out at others just because you've been sold a bill of goods.

[High Plains]

43. Which wages are suppressed by illegal immigration?

And how much?

I seem to recall reading on this board a study (by Borjas?) that said the negative impact on wages was limited to non-high school graduates and was either 3% or 8%.

As for illegal immigration being "a major factor" in declining wages or in people's ability to buy a home, I don't buy that. Maybe the median new home price might have something to do with it.

That said, nobody likes cheap wages (well, except for people who buy things). Better to regularize these people so their labor are rights are protected and they can organize for better wages.

As for your remark about "why don't you just vote Republican," I would hope that you would have figured out this isn't a Democratic-Republican divide. This issue is splitting both parties. Why don't you just vote in the fine tradition of anti-foreigner tickets and write in the Know Nothing Party in November?

[FreakinDJ]

52. They are not going to join labor organisations

Who promoted that fallacy

Nor are the effects limited to “non-high school graduates”

Try telling that to the executive who has paid vacation and holidays in his compensation package. Those benefits were fought and earned by those “Non High School Graduate” union members.

You lower the bottom class, the middle class follows. Only the fat cat top 15% (est.) is unaffected.

So that whole line of garbage “we’ll give them Union membership at the boarder” kiss it good bye. Anyone earning less then 75K has figured that out.

Yep this issue will cost the DEMs

[Bridget Burke]

Yup, those "illegals" are buying up the homes in LA....

That's why real estate is so pricey out there.

[FreakinDJ]

54. Yep the Chinese, Japanese, Tiawanese

Wish some of those limosuine liberals up north would get a clue.

BTW: quit exploiting that illegal alien garderner of yours and get him some health benifits

[Bridget Burke]

79. I do my own gardening.

So--you hate all immigrants? Or just the non-white ones?

[FreakinDJ]

81. Well Goodie for U

Where the FUCK did race become part of it

You want to see my picture - I'm hispanic and my wife is a LEGAL IMMIGRANT

Duh...

some people got all the brains

[JuniperLea]

84. Do you see how people try emotional warfare on this issue?

This conversation was going along just fine... no racist comments whatsoever... someone just had to play the race card, inappropriately at that. Talk about useless rhetoric! Jeez. You never said a racist word in this whole conversation. Fuck her and her shit stirring for no good reason. That was just stupid.

This is not about race. It's about common sense.

[Ms. Clio]

89. Funny, I didn't see Bridget use the word "race" at all

Please find the post in this thread where she did.

Instead, I see accusations and repeated use of a strange talking point called "emotional warfare."

[FreakinDJ]

99. Is this plain enough for you

So--you hate all immigrants? Or just the non-white ones?

Doesn't take Einstein to figure that one out

But yes I regret if I acted out angrily. But honestly I have been saying for over 6 months this is going to be the wedge issue that wins for the Repukes in 06 unless their become a sensable unified Democratic voice in this discussion. I feel Kennedy's proposal went a long way to accomplish that but needed to have stiffer employer sanctions.

Here is a link to his bill

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/13/112653/285

besides I don't think I can take 4 years of Jeb Bush. In fact I might become an immigrant myself if that happens

[Ms. Clio]

103. I know about Kennedy's proposal

but thanks very much for the link.

Don't worry, the Repukes will have plenty other wedge issues over the next months. But I agree that's what this is.

But hey, if we have another 4 years of BushCo., there won't be any place left on the planet to emigrate to!

[JuniperLea]

104. "So--you hate all immigrants? Or just the non-white ones?"

This was the first mention of anything close to racism, it was argumentum ad hominem and it was bullshit. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation so far. It was inflammatory and unnecessary.

Strange talking point my ass. I made up that term today; I've never heard it anywhere.

If you cannot see the correlation between the need to have sufficient resources to support a population and the need to limit immigration to the legal variety, then you must be another tool suffering from the same emotional warfare seen on DU daily.

At some point people have to start thinking with their heads. We cannot save the world. And if we stretch our resources until they are completely broken, then we will be in no position to help one single person.

[Ms. Clio]

107. right -- after she was accused of being a limousine liberal

exploiting illegals.

I'd say the ad hominems started right then, by pulling the race and the class cards.

[JuniperLea]

110. Ummm... no

She asked for that as well with the first accusations of racism she posted, the one that was responded to with the lib limousine crack. Crack for crack... all is fair.

The point remains, she played the race card first. This convo was going quite well until that card was played... and it was quite the ignorant move on her part, imho.

[Ms. Clio]

112. "quit exploiting that illegal alien garderner of yours. . .

quit exploiting that illegal alien garderner of yours and get him some health benifits."


On edit: post #54

[JuniperLea]

115. Doesn't matter

it was crack for crack and she started it.

Funniest thing is, she had no idea she was playing the race card on a Latino! hahahahhahahhaaa!!!

:rofl:

[Ms. Clio]

116. And he has no idea what her economic status is, either

so I guess it's chuckles all around.

[JuniperLea]

119. You are just trying to argue aren't you?

You and Bridget both came to this thread with an appetite for argument. You changed the whole tone of the discussion by interjecting racial bullshit that didn't belong. No one was bashing Mexicans, yet you two felt the need to come to their "defense" where no defense was needed. To the extent that even a Latino would be accused of racism. Bogus. Simply bogus.

[Ms. Clio]

122. I can't speak for anyone else but myself

I came into this argument to inject some skepticism about rightwing sources and and a historical perspective.

What are you here for?

[JuniperLea]

127. Yet you chose to defend a blatant race card...

That had no business here in the first place.

I'm here to interject some common sense.

This is not a racist issue until it is made racist by argumentum ad hominem, which is exactly what happened here today. The interjection of racism and a damning of individuals who want to slow immigration as being racist or without a heart or care of the situation poor immigrants are in is illogical and ignorant. This is why I derived the term "emotional warfare". We cannot continue with the divisive arguments based on accusations of heartlessness. Someone has to use their head instead of their heart and realize that we help no one if we damn ourselves to the same plight.

There are not enough resources to go around and if we don't limit immigration we will become the new Mexico. (This is one argument that no one has been able to trump thus far and I think it is the main reason we need controlled immigration.)

There is no firm evidence that terrorists are crossing the boarders willy nilly. All Muslims are not terrorists, nor are all people who speak or write Arabic or carry a prayer blanket. That is more emotional warfare. They are playing with our emotions to get us to fight with one another. Divide and conquer... it's the oldest tactic in the book.

[Ms. Clio]

129. The Minutemen are racists, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center

You are just kidding yourself if you don't understand that racism, nativism, and xenophobia are important factors in this debate, and are being used and exploited to the hilt by certain rightwing elements. I have seen the divisive rhetoric used here repeatedly, although it has died down quite a bit lately, and thank goodness, it never was as truly disgusting as the comments at the HuffPo on this issue.

And the problem is far bigger than "illegal immigration." Legal immigration in the form of insourcing is just as important -- and both are symptoms of a problem that is much bigger than our borders -- indeed, there are some multinationals that are worth more than many countries. If there is a solution, it will come when workers find a way to deal with the new realities of the post-industrial world.


(picky typo edit)

[FreakinDJ]

130. Your the first one to bring up the minute men

Why

It just proves his point

[Ms. Clio]

131. You are the one who insists that racism is not a factor

I use the reference to help prove that it is.

Bored now.

[FreakinDJ]

133. Sure you support the Democratic party

This is obviously exactly what Bush / Rove is hoping to accomplish for bringing this issue to the table.

Did anyone actually believe they actually wanted to deport 11 million people?

I’m operating out of memory but wasn’t it the Justice Dept. under the Bush administration that challenged New Mexico in their attempts to place National Guard troops on the boarder just 5 short years ago?

When I first heard there proposals it was laughable, but honestly they have been floating trail balloons for over 18 months now before they came up with that ridiculous legislation.

It’s a wedge – it takes plain sensible discussions and legislation not name calling

[Ms. Clio]

142. Did anyone actually believe they actually wanted to deport 11 million

people?"

Well, yeah, oddly enough, after the House of Reps passed that draconian bill, millions of people did believe that.

And you know why?

Because such injustices have occured previously in United States history, including dragnets that swept up legal residents and citizens along with "illegals" and often included terror, humiliation, and abuse.

Google the forced "repatriations" of the 1930s and "Operation Wetback" during the mid 1950s.

[FreakinDJ]

159. You have a valid point

Not to mention the genocide we’ve engaged in during the Spanish American wars and the Filipino insurrection.

Honestly and please don’t flame me for this, I think every one has to some extent a little racist in them. Call it some perverted tribal self preservation instinct left over from Cave man days, but its there. To what extent you thrive on being a victim of primordial instincts in your personality is determined by environment and education. (just my personal beliefs, no more, no less)

Which is why I feel all the more strongly in the Dems being able to effectively establish a strong, compassionate, well educated voice in this issue. Without it, those you seek to protect will be persecuted even more.

[Ms. Clio]

164. thanks & no flames at all

I appreciate what you're saying, and especially the valid references to the Span-Am War and the Phillipines. I just wish more people understood that "those I seek to protect" include legal residents and U.S. citizens, as well.

[JuniperLea]

173. You are so eager to argue that you missed the whole point

No surprise.

Yes, it has been MADE a racist issue and has fanned the flames of racism. That is the RW plan and you fell for it hook line and sinker. To the point where you defended your buddy's race card that had no place in this particular conversation. There was no discussion of race at all until your buddy poked her nose in and added her snark where it didn't belong. And you defended it.

Yes, the racists are out of the woodwork. But this particular conversation was being played out on a non-emo level and there was a lot of sense being made here until you and your buddy stirred the shit, and at that time, the sensible conversation went all to hell. You interjected emotion into a cerebral conversation. A lot of sense was being made and you ruined it. You fell for the RW plan. You played right into their trap and their effort to divide and conquer.

[FreakinDJ]

90. I have been trying to warn DU this wedge issue will defeat us

The conversation ceases once the race card is played. Any form of intelegent thought is prevented and this is the EXACT same method Bush/Rove used to gain support for the Iraq war.

Like i said before - "None of the present immigration bills will pass". To easy, it takes away the republican's ability to keep this issue in the spot light.

They will float political balloons, plenty of Press releases, even less action, but they drive this wedge directly into the heart of the DEMs

Shit the illegals are being just as exploited, some even hate us and our country but given things are worse over there, their here to earn a living. The fact that many send money home to their families SHOULD give a few folks a clue. They have a wife and kids waiting for them down in Mexico. They have no intention of staying here.

So why not require the employers to play by the rules. That way we are not ripping the workers off for SSI. That way there is workmen's comp to pay the medical bills instead of dropping them off on the emergency room steps.

Given the last round of Out Sourcing this country experienced the American middle class (once heralded as the backbone of America) won't survive another attack.

[Ms. Clio]

95. Your use of the word "race" is deceptive

Much of the bigotry consists of nativism, xenophobia, and ethnocentrism, but racism is a long and well-documented fact in the U.S. Southwest, too, and is not seriously questioned by reputable scholars. I suggest you educate yourself a bit more.

[FreakinDJ]

102. Nice edit but yes you are playing the RACE card

Is there some thing lacking in your argument you need to augment with slurrs or is it more of a habitual thing

Yep you are also playing the race card quite well your self.

[Ms. Clio]

105. The only thing I edited was my typo of Southwest

If you don't think this is partially about race, then you aren't really familiar with the history of the Southwest. Again, I suggest you do some reading.

Start with They Called Them Greasers: Anglo Attitudes Toward Mexicans in Texas, 1821-1900.

(another typo edit)

[JuniperLea]

101. illegals are being just as exploited

I've said that sooooo many times! Indeed they are.

It all boils down to the employers and the government and their circle jerking ways. The gov has to make a big stink about it so we are diverted from the fact that they let the companies off the hook! The companies are breaking the law and need held accountable.


That race card play really pissed me off! I hate dumbass argumentum ad hominem bullshit like that. Good thing this is a message board... I have time to choose my words and there's no one nearby to scream at and bust ear drums! Jeez. What tools!

[JuniperLea]

5. Oh please

Think about it! How was the economy in the 90's? Who was president? You can't compare apples and oranges.



I have a question for you. Being a life long Angelino, I've suffered through plenty of water shortages and I know for a fact we are living on the edge when it comes to all resources... water, electricity, sanitation, traffic, schools/class size, police force... I could go on and on. I also know for a fact that Los Angeles will be one of the first cities in America that will be affected negatively if any more people come to town.

Made up crisis my ass.

Too many people in this area will lower the quality of life for everyone. It could very easily slip to the level of Mexico, so no one would benefit.

Band-aids will not help this situation.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Your very right

Some times I wonder what planet these people are living on.

The system is strained beyond belief. The republicans want the caps lifted off the illegal immigrants so they can kill any kind of social programs, public education, and national health care once and for all.

[JuniperLea]

16. Yep!

Eliminate all the programs paid from our taxes and guess what? Mo money, mo money, mo money for the Repubs to use as liner for their own pockets... and only the companies they hold dear and cronies will survive ultimately. Small businesses will be a thing of history.

[Beacho]

13. I was born and raised in California (SF &LA)

As well as living a large portion of my adult life there.


Are you telling me the increase in population is only due to illegal immigration? There's a big whole in laying your complaint at illegals' feet, and I would think that you know what it is....

[JuniperLea]

18. No one said that

Stick to the subject. The fact remains we are stretched to the limit... there's no more room... it would lower the quality of life for all concerned... the immigrants may as well stay south of our border because we are going to mirror their life if this keeps up.

[Beacho]

22. I am sticking to the subject

LA is a desirable place to live, hence many United States citizens move there. I was disputing your fact that illegals are the cause of overpopulation in SoCal.

[JuniperLea]

26. I never said it was the cause! You show me where I said that!

I said we are stretched to the limit with the amount of people we have here now. Nowhere did I say we have so many people because of immigration. All I said was that we cannot afford an influx of more people and Los Angeles will be one of the first cities in the US to bear the brunt. Show me where I said anything different than that.

But now that you bring it up...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-census10may10,1,4625766.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true

Read it... Google is your friend.

[Beacho]

31. And I never said 'open up the borders'

Show me where I said that.

[JuniperLea]

51. Show me where I said you said that!

Really. This is getting ridiculous. You can't keep a train of thought, you ramble from subject to subject, you change the rules for yourself after telling someone else they can't say something. Honestly. All I'm saying is we are stretched to the limit now. We cannot afford to allow more and more people into the area for basic health, safety and sanitation reasons. So don't tell there is no problem. That is utter bullshit. I'm through with you. I refuse to battle wits with someone who can't stay on track.

[Beacho]

60. I never said that anyone couldn't say something

What frigging good would that do anyways.

I'll cop to the rambling, though. But you may want to check out your color, Mr. Pot

[JuniperLea]

65. Ms Pot to you!

You did. You said correlation does not equal causation. Then you turned around and said to check GOP numbers, which is the same damn thing.

Edited to say that when I ramble on, at least I am sticking to the subject and I am not comparing apples to oranges.

[Beacho]

67. I'm attributing motive based on situation and past behavior

Not two numbers being 'correlated' to show causation. The GOPs numbers and past behavior to 'shop' for wedge issues is other data that does show causation.

Boogie-illegals is this years Gay Marriage.

Oh and sorry Ms Pot ;)

[JuniperLea]

69. That's ok;) I'm always being accused of being a man

I guess I must write like one.

I agree to a point... it is this year's gay marriage to a degree. The conservatives are creating a stink about a situation of their own making. Did you ever know a little kid who would break something then say, oh my god! Who broke this? Same immature deal going on here. And they are playing on our emotions and making us feel like we are not humanitarians if we don't allow amnesty and open borders. That's all part of their bullshit.

I don't care about jobs, housing, whatever else you all want to argue about. I work for a PR firm... I can find statistics to prove anything I want to prove. It's all smoke and mirrors. What I do know is it is a fact that we have pushed our resources to the breaking point and we simply cannot sustain this amount of growth, and an increase in population growth would throw us into a tail spin of no return. We will be Mexico. The immigrants will have gained nothing and we will have lot everything.

[Beacho]

74. I don't necessarily disagree with you

Those are all legitimate issues to discuss. My main point of this is the demogaguing of the issue and trying to stampede the herd on the part of a political faction wishing to maintain power.

[FreakinDJ]

75. I agree "Boogie-illegals is this years Gay Marriage"

and have been saying just that for months here on DU.

The DEMs need a strong sensable immigration plan and quit playing to the Repubs.

I'm all in favor of going after the employers. Lifting the ITIN clause of the 96 life act and most would be applicable for legal immigration. Those that want to stay here and be a part of America.

People that don't know any thing about it assume all want to live here. NOT TRUE - m,any arer working sending money home making payments on their homes, even ranches down in Mexico. Others have felony conviction records and frankly I just can't support that

[JuniperLea]

80. I'd like to see and end to sending money out

It's in the billions of dollars now. That further weakens our economy. I agree, if someone wants to come here and become an American, fine. No problem.

[FreakinDJ]

113. Why only Mexico

Even Kennedy’s bill is calling for cooperation of the Mexican government to make it work, and I tell you it just ain’t gonna happen.

H2B visa is the agricultural visa program, long forgotten, over abused and all but abandoned. It requires fines to be paid for every worker that fails to return to the country of origin.

We need to realize there are OTHER countries whose residents would die to have the chance to participate in that visa program. Other countries who’s government would enact legislation and cooperate with the US government to prevent abuse of the program.

And why not! Why should any one country have a monopoly on those visas

[JuniperLea]

117. I agree totally

The world is full of homeless, starving, ill and poor people who would love to come on over to the land of milk and honey... only there isn't enough of either to go around. We can't even feed and house all the people we have here already!

Every night 10,000 children go to bed hungry in Los Angeles County alone. Every night. There are no resources to help them, yet we are expected to save everyone who wants to come here. The whole idea is just ignorant.

[GrumpyGreg]

8. What are your sources for these "facts"?

[Beacho]

10. Okay I'll play the game

Since there are numerous threads screaming about the INVASION, what are your sources that it has increased? That unemployment is due to this INVASION?

I'll post mine soon enough.

Let's see yours, since I have yet to see any authoritative figures for the present, which should be easier to find. I'll have to find on online source for the hard copy stats I have.

Fair enough?

[JuniperLea]

20. Try reading post #2 for starters n/t

[Beacho]

23. Corelation does not equal causation

I see someone else said that.

[GrumpyGreg]

29. You started the thread,I didn't. I don't need to prove anything,you do.

[Beacho]

32. So that would be a no

Doesn't that make you curious to find out where the data comes from that leads you to your position?

Or is it just about "winning at the internets"?

[FreakinDJ]

12. Love quoting your logic friend

so you don't pay attention to outsourcing

So we promote Illegal alien In-sourcing.

Simply Brilliant

[Beacho]

15. The only logic I posit

Is that this is a cynical ploy to stir up hysteria and use a population group as a scapegoat(illegals) for the predations of another group (corporatists).

[JuniperLea]

21. Prove it n/t

[Beacho]

27. GOP polling numbers would be a start

Do you remember hysteria over immigration before the GOPs numbers tanked?

The 'issue' only appeared on the radar shortly after the GOPs numbers went into the shitter, especially in the area of trusting the GOP on national security matters.

[FreakinDJ]

37. Smart guy Beacho

You pegged it 100%

Fu%%ing Ratpublicans have prevented any sort of regulation along the boarder for decades. Now their trying to champion the cause of closing the boarders and "Get Tough" legislation.

I'm begining to wonder about these liberated thinkers promoting open boarders and jobs for all. They might as well be working for the Republican party.

[JuniperLea]

66. They are making it an emotional and "humanitarian" issue

When in reality, it is a resource issue.

I'm as liberated as they come, a thinker and a heart that is too soft for my own good. There comes a time when you have to divorce yourself from the emotional issues and look at a situation logically and only logically.

Nothing good can come from open borders and jobs for all is a fantasy.

[JuniperLea]

41. Correlation does not equal causation.

If you are going to have a debate on an issue you shouldn't change the rules.

[Dr. Jones]

42. Actually from what I understand

it came to the fore as a result of the illegals marching in the streets, waving Mexican flags, and demanding citizenship and amnesty.

[Solon]

44. No, it was when Sensenbrenner decided to introduce a bill to increase...

the Prison Population by about 11 million people.

[Dr. Jones]

45. Okay, true, BuT...

Why would the Repugs do something that would completely alienate a very important and courted part of their base - Hispanics? They would have to have realized this would backfire on them!

[Solon]

48. Because Whites still outnumber Hispanics, and the "angry white male"...

is a large percentage of their core base.

[FreakinDJ]

83. I was waiting for the race card to be played

I'm sure the Republican machine has already thought of this issue as well.

You forget there are Millions of legal immgrants here in this country who feel the JOBs pinch presented by illegal aliens worse then you do. I'm sure ROVE (or his replacement) will role out dozens of these disgrunteled immigrants.

And yes they are disgruntled by being displaced for jobs, paying 1000s of dollards, ton of time, to legally immigrate here to this country. For some reason I do think you are "in touch" with these folks at all. - they are pissed

I've talked to a Mexican immigrants, now US Citizens who are flaming hot mad over illegals DEMANDING citizenship after they worked so hard to legally work for it

[Ms. Clio]

85. and there are far more who don't want their relatives to become felons

under the Sensenbrenner law.

Millions of them, in fact.

[FreakinDJ]

106. Hell NO I didn’t say punish the immigrants

Illegal or other wise.

But…DAM it when is some one going to figure this thing out. It is all about exploiting workers on BOTH sides of the boarder.

Companies get cheap labor, pay no taxes, pay no workers comp, pay no SSI, and to boot any time they break common sense labor laws they threaten to have these people deported.

ON THE OTHER SIDE

American workers compete against lower wages WHICH DO drive down prevailing rates, they pay increased taxes used to support over burdened social services, school systems, and even increased medical insurance cost which subsidize emergency room visits for illegal works without health insurance – which once again is NOT provided by their employers

SUSPEND the ITIN provisions of the 1996 Life Act (immigration law) and most will become applicable for immigration. Yes they need to pass felony record checks, yes they need to pass medical checks, and yes if they have received public assistance they will have to pay it back.

But for GOD’s SAKE punish the damm dishonest employers who have created this problem and cheated IRS and the American Tax payer

[Ms. Clio]

108. Punishing the employers is probably part of it

The true root of the problem is neo-liberalism and globalization, however, and that's what needs to be addressed.

[FreakinDJ]

111. See Agreement is possible

Sorry if I took offense to comments about race



I live in a town that is traditionally called a “Brown neighborhood” Some of the best, hardest working people you would ever want to be around. But honestly many of them are here for the season, a couple of years, and then they go back home to relax in a nice home or ranch they purchased with their hard earned money.

So “Blanket Amnesty” as the knee jerk freepers are calling it doesn’t work well either.

You can probably see by now I run a website offering legal immigration information. What I also want to know is why we have to chuck in the trash many other immigration programs which have been abused to death by greedy employers.

[Ms. Clio]

114. I do believe good people can hammer out reasonable solutions

as long as we don't let the Repukes and Minutemen and hate radio frame the debate for us.

[FreakinDJ]

118. Framing Kennedy’s bill

Which I believe is on the right tract, given a little modification that is crucial.

Kennedy did make a very passionate compelling plea to common sense Americans. I feel because McCain was on board they didn’t state or attempt to enact laws against the obvious violations of employers cheating the system. In my mind these guys are the WalMart-ization of small to mid size businesses here in America, going to any lengths to exploit the system.

When they employ illegals they cheat the Tax system, the workers comp system, even the working class by importing increased financial burden on working America.

Some one was trying to compare the Clinton economy here earlier in this thread. The Clinton economy symbolized innovation, creation, and fairness. Over looking the cheating employers in this debate symbolizes every thing the Repukes are all about.

Driving this country into a shit hole of despair for their own personal gain.

Anyone can do it cheaper. We are never going to excel / survive on that premise. We need to do it better, more innovated, more creative, more Good O’l Real American know how

[JuniperLea]

121. Oh, you mean the hispanics they exploit?

The illegals who will never be citizens and cannot vote and the legals who have been lied to? Do you think these people are stupid? They will all know sooner if not later that Bush used them and they will turn on him.

Right. Base. They aren't wealthy corporations, so no, they are not his base. They are pawns in an evil game of greed.

[Ms. Clio]

53. There you go again....

1. The crowds were not composed solely of "illegals."

2. Most of them waved American flags, especially in Dallas, as you should know

3. And many of them were citizens who are concerned about their FAMILIES because of the SENSENBRENNER BILL.

[Solon]

28. Actually, if you think about it logically...

Look, nearly all the jobs that CAN be outsourced already are outsourced, that's manufacturing mostly, they are portable, you can build a factory anywhere, pretty much, and it won't affect the bottom line negatively. Illegal immigrants are used for jobs that AREN'T portable, like building houses, roofing, service and cleaning, along with agriculture. This is a win/win for the corporatists, and lose/lose for workers, on BOTH sides of the border.

[FreakinDJ]

38. Absolutely Right

Building Trades used to support a family

I'm mean USED TO support a family.

[kitp]

24. blatant hypocrisy

Yes, this is a totally manufactured issue and the Dems should not be accepting the basic premise that there is an immigration problem because there is not.

The way to defeat the 'they're taking our jobs' argument is to note that the administration claims that the economy is booming and unemployment is very very low (4% or less I think they say) so exactly what jobs are they talking about? Either the immigrants are NOT taking jobs or the economy is doing worse than they say and there are a lot more unemployed than they say.

One or the other is false.

[mac56]

25. Very true.

Welcome to DU. You summed it up beautifully.

[Beacho]

30. You're Awesome!

Let me get you a nice TGIF DU special. I get hot when this issue comes up and I thank you for stating something simply that I couldn't get out properly.


:toast:

[JuniperLea]

36. Hi Kitp

Welcome to DU...

Where do you live? The immigration problem is regional. It isn't a problem everywhere and it effects local economies differently.


A job in, say, Seattle WA that pays $20 an hour... forklift/warehouse job for instance, in Los Angeles pays less than minimum wage to an immigrant worker. The price the company pays in wages for the same job in different locations is what tips the scale. It appears business is booming. They have just lowered overhead by hiring someone grateful for $4 an hour.

[FreakinDJ]

40. Oh Right - that well work

In the mean time the 40% of americans living pay check to pay check don't vote any way. their too poor to vote.

If the DEMS screw up on the Immigration debate and think the Hispanics well pull them throught the election they well be finished off once and for all.

[Dr. Jones]

50. Is THIS a manufactured issue?

Illegals from terrorist nations are crossing the border into Arizona.

Tom McNamara and the Eyewitness News 4 Investigators have spent the last three months talking to experts and eyewitnesses. The stories are compelling and the evidence is frightening, and just this week, Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo released a report showing that the problem is worse than anyone thought. Here's what the Eyewitness News 4 Investigators uncovered.

"It's a Muslim prayer blanket. It was found about a mile and a half west from the Douglas port of entry in 2001." Larry Vance is a rancher who lives near the U.S.-Mexico border in Douglas, Arizona. For years, he says he's watched - and documented - thousands of illegals crossing the border and running away to eventual arrest... or freedom and anonymity somewhere in this country. And in just one hour, during this stake-out along the border between Douglas and b\Bisbee, The Investigators count 198 illegals in five different groups crossing into the U.S. with no resistance.

In recent years, Vance says, the evidence some illegals leave behind is alarming. Vance says, "Other log books, diary-type things, other bits and pieces of paper with Arabic written on them found in the area over the last few years. We've all heard of the U.S. government's Terror Watch List: countries flagged because Americans are endangered by their citizens, yet regularly, illegals from those countries are crossing the Arizona border, blending in with groups of Mexican and South American illegal immigrants...The investigators found that on this day, several individuals of this kind were being detained here, including some from Sudan, Iran, and even Iraq. These are just the ones who were caught.

Source: http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=2172749

[High Plains]

55. Yes. Why do you post this tripe?

[FreakinDJ]

57. It worked before

Remember how the hype lost DEMs the last 2 elections

[Dr. Jones]

62. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

This article is very credible, and the reporters are independent. Like all reporters, they are simply reporting on what they have seen and heard.

For some reason when it comes to the REAL impact of illegal immigration and open borders, people want to flee from any hint of negative impact. I think if you were Border Security or in our intelligence community, you would have a totally different point of view.

[Howardx]

72. the only "evidence" in that article is hearsay

a rancher says a blanket is a muslim prayer blanket, a rancher finds diaries in arabic, none of this is shown to the reporter, its all hearsay. this "retired colonel" sounds like your typical freeper "Anderson is a retired U.S. Army Colonel who tracks illegal immigration from his home in Sierra Vista, Arizona. He has a website sharing his research into Special Interest Aliens." he tracks it from his home, i wonder how? there is 0% hard evidence of anything in this link.

[Ms. Clio]

93. "0% hard evidence of anything"??? I'm shocked

Shocked, I say.

[Bridget Burke]

73. Yeah, the reporters talked to immigrant haters....

Congressman Tom Tancredo: Despite having had virtually no real, practical effect on immigration policy in his half-decade in national office - not to mention any other particularly noteworthy results on matters of greater relevance to his specific district - Tancredo has experienced a profound conversion on the issue of term limits - but only insofar as they apply to one Thomas Tancredo.

Somewhere between 2001 and 2004, when the time for him to honor his three-term pledge came due, something mysterious occurred that led Tancredo to believe that he is now absolutely irreplaceable in Congress as a fighter against immigration and "multiculturalism." The scales fell from Tancredo's eyes, and he suddenly realized that the term-limits principle that got him elected in the first place, and that he more than any other single person had ardently championed in Colorado, was wrong. Tancredo decided to break his pledge and run for a fourth term in Congress in 2004.

http://tomtancredo.org/pages/1/index.htm

Tancredo is the one who said we ought to "take out" Mecca if the US suffers another "Terrorist" attack. Yes, he's a great source!

You can let us know how "credible" the other characters are. I'm tired of clicking on those racist sites.

[JuniperLea]

94. That article is pure crap

What makes all Muslims or people who write or speak Arabic terrorists.

Bogus and stupid. Don't fall for that stuff. It's moronic.


You fell for the bait... time to wise up Mr.

[Beacho]

59. I was wondering when you'd show up Jones

So alarmist 'messicans are coming for your jobs' isn't working out, so it's time for the bogus 'boogie-terrist' story, eh?

Sad


That 'report' si based on a claim made by Tancredo, point man in the "We Need A Distraction, NOW!!!!!" operation now under way by the GOP.

[Beacho]

I have another point

Why would a hardcore Jihaddi religious fanatic leave his prayer rug in the desert with trash? I have a prayer rug, from Turkey, on my wall. A gift from one of mothers friends who lives in Instanbul. If you saw it, would you think that a Osama bin Goldstein was in my attic?

[JuniperLea]

91. Stupid, isn't it?

No self-respecting terrorist would use a stupid telephone to communicate their plots either.


Some people will fall for anything. I only wish I had a few bridges to sell... oh, wait! heh

[ulysses]

76. Muslims in Arizona! Run for your lives!

:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

88. LOL!

Everyone knows that ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS! :sarcasm:

[JuniperLea]

87. You sure fell for the bait

Yes. Manufactured.

That article is ridiculous. OOooooo! Arabic! Scary, scary Arabic! Jeez. There have been Muslims in this country for years. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all people who speak or write in Arabic are terrorists.

Get a grip fcol!


OOooooo! Scary Muslim prayer blanket... good grief.

[Ms. Clio]

56. welcome to DU!

Great post!

[leftstreet]

63. Field Marshall Von Rumsfeld will solve the issue/non-issue for us

On Capitol Hill on Thursday, the House voted 252-171 to allow Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to assign military personnel under certain circumstances to help the Homeland Security Department with border security. The House added the provision to a larger military measure.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060512021009990002&cid=2194

[Dr. Jones]

70. Poll from the website you posted...

Should the military be used to tighten the U.S.-Mexico border?

Yes 86%
No 14%

[Ms. Clio]

86. and you think that means something?

[JuniperLea]

109. A lot of people are junkies too, but it doesn't mean heroin...

is a good thing.

We wouldn't need much control of that border if the companies who hire illegals were held accountable and forced to adhere to the current laws. Corporations and the government are at fault.

[treestar]

145. How can they be forced to do that? They could just go out of

business, sacking whatever American employees they have. Or take it abroad. Which is what they are doing anyway. They can't be forced not to if we still buy their products. Which means we still have jobs.

[JuniperLea]

174. So you are for cherry picking the laws that should be adhered to?

Isn't that the BushCo way?

Enforcing current laws would go a long way to saving us from ruin. We are running out of resources. We cannot continue to support the world's poor. We can't even support our own. This has nothing to do with jobs. It has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with housing. It has everything to do with our already stretched to the limit resources... water, roads, health care, sanitation, sewers, etc. Everyone can argue until the cows come home about their racist rhetoric... that's exactly what the RW wants us to do. It won't change the fact that Los Angeles and other cities close to a border will become the newest poor third world city if we don't limit immigration by people of any color. We simply do not have enough for those who are here already.

[Lefty48197]

77. Phony b*llshit manufactured crisis

You said it all with that one line. Now excuse me while I go attend a rally against flag-burning, what with the fourth of july coming up and all.

[Mr_Spock]

82. Maybe because China is taking more jobs than Mexicans

The combined effect has really reduced the number of high-paying manufacturing jobs in this country.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. Did you post the background info?

Can you please link to something that indicates that there are fewer illegals today than 10 or 15 years ago?

[DFLer4edu]

98. I'm making no political statement: please show us your sources

I've looked through this entire thread and you have failed to cite a single source for these statistics. If you want other people to give the sources for the facts they site ask them to do so, but you also should also give your sources or you run the risk of looking hypocritical. When 39% of all statistics are made up on the spot it isn't unreasonable for us to ask for your sources.

[Elwood P Dowd]

123. Here is a good article to read

Blame Mexico: the Mess Starts at Home

Shameful neglect by the country's leaders is a big reason people want to leave
By PO BRONSON


SUBSCRIBE TO TIMEPRINTE-MAILMORE BY AUTHOR


Posted Monday, May. 08, 2006
I've lived in California for 24 years. I've always taken the most liberal line on immigration, without much question. I supported amnesty for undocumented workers and I marched against California's propositions that made it harder for immigrants to receive social services. My patriotism is rooted in their perspective; their appreciation for how good life is in America serves as a valuable check on all those who complain that life was better 50 years ago or life is better in France today.

But my preset acceptance has been a blindness. Liberals like me have ignored the way the steady trickle of new Americans has become a massive repopulation program, primarily from Mexico. During the 1970s, 120,000 Mexicans came to the U.S. every year. During the 1980s, it was about 200,000 a year. During the 1990s, it was 350,000 a year. Today, it's estimated at 485,000—every year. One out of every eight Mexican-born adults are now living in the U.S.

I no longer think it's okay to give the Mexican government a free pass. Pushing its poor towards the U.S. seems to have become Mexico's primary social policy. The migration rate is the highest from the areas with the poorest people. But the Mexican government has not pushed money into those areas to ease the conditions that force Mexicans to leave. It's doing the opposite; the World Bank says those states are receiving the least government help.

This has been a threefold victory for the Mexican government. First, it eliminates the financial concern of how to care for these people. Second, the citizens who would be the angriest about the government's inadequacies keep leaving the country. Those who would vote, protest, stage walk-outs, and revolt—instead keep voting with their feet. Which in turn protects The Powers That Be. And third, as a reward for watching entire communities empty out, they receive a huge influx of cash.

<more>

http://www.tradealert.us/news_item.asp?NID=2047513

[treestar]

136. Doesn't it seem like most of what you buy is made in some other country

anyway? It doesn't really seem like the illegals here could be having much effect compared to that.

[B Calm]

144. Scrap NAFTA and replace it with a program that doesn't favor

corporations, but favors workers rights.

[FreakinDJ]

149. They should have listened to Gephardt

He was the one that tried to have human rights – workers rights attached to the treaty. We should have been doing that all along in every treaty including most favored nation status for China.

It has really come around to bite us in the ass for not listening to him

[Cleita]

154. It is a made up crisis designed TO DIVIDE and

don't forget DISTRACT. It would be nice if flesh and
blood victims weren't involved.

[progressivebydesign]

161. I'd much rather talk about jobs shipped overseas...

That's a real issue. Frankly, I still maintain that the immigrants take jobs that most Americans don't want to do. Have any of your driven past a field of workers, on hot.. hot.. Saturday, and they're there in the fields, doing back-breaking work on the soil.. hunched over? Or have you seen them on those old buses being driven to fields, with nothing more than a large jug of water and a porta potty on a trailer behind the bus? THink that they get coffee breaks? Do they get health insurance? Do they get to leave early to see their kid's play? They do the work that most Americans would not do.

Does anyone from So Cal remember years ago when there was another uproar about illegal immigrants doing those jobs? A huge raid took hundreds of them.. It was during a recession, so a farm owner offered up the jobs to folks in Orange County, where his fields were. Not one of the Americans lasted a day doing the work.

There has to be a way to do the following: Make the process of becoming a citizen less complex for people, if that's what is wanted now. We need to make the companies that hire illegal immigrants accountable for having such despicable working conditions that only someone who ran across a border would or could be desperate enough to do it. The problem with access to illegal workers, is that the farms and companies do not HAVE to provide decent work conditions. AND.. this issue has to be settled down. The illegal immigrants are the NEW gay marriage. Just in time for the november elections. Do any of you actually think that this issue is in the news right now for ANY other reason? Karl Rove may be a lying scum, but he's also a political genius.

[FreakinDJ]

168. Here are the conditions of H2B visa

http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/foreign/h-2a.asp#comp

It’s called the agricultural worker visa program. Totally abused, long forgotten and all but dismantled. Please don’t go ballistic but liberals will be blamed for dismantling the program because they sued farmers for substandard housing during the 60s and 70s.

I think the housing problem could quite easily be solved with use of excess shipping containers modified to serve as temporary housing for workers. It could serve as a whole new industry, converting, renting, and delivering these portable temporary housing units.



But PLEASE recognize illegal workers are by no means limited to field work any more. Almost all your meat packing plants, food processing plants, textile plants have illegal workers to some extent.

Even the building construction trades have lost the majority of residential construction jobs to illegal workers and a good portion of the commercial projects too.

So when these guys come on here and start spouting we need to protect American jobs it is not completely unfounded. When they say they are driving down wages for Americans, they are not completely talking out the side of there neck

[FlaGranny]

175. For the life of me I find it hard to understand

how anyone could advocate totally open borders at this time. Many posters seem to want those open borders. That means stopping all border checks, not requiring visas, or passports, not requiring background checks, not checking luggage for bombs, not checking people for weapons. It means free for all. It means paying no attention at all to who comes and goes. It means chaos. Do we really have enough resources for everyone on this planet who would come?

If it's okay to slip over a border in the middle of the night, why in the world bother with customs, airport security, and shipping containers?

I also believe it is very naive to discount the possibility that people who mean this country harm have not noticed how easy it is to cross the border illegally. They would be less likely to be caught than they would in a legal entry.