A call to fellow atheists and agnostics

[Rex_Goodheart]

The impending confirmation of Scalito to the Supreme Court means we will have lost a battle against the destructive societal force that is organized religion.

There is no reason to deny a woman dominion over her own body except for religion. There is no reason to consider a fetus a person except for religion. There is no reason to oppose legal prostitution except for religion. There is no reason to oppose gay marriage except for religion. There would be almost zero support for an invasion of Iraq except for religion.

Now, with the internet and its blogs and message boards and chat rooms, we have all the tools we need. It's time to pump up the volume. It's time for you to triple your efforts in calling religion, especially the Christian and Muslim varieties, what it is: UTTER NONSENSE.

[zanne]

1. Criticizing religion just makes the religious feel "persecuted"...

They thrive on that stuff. They can deny the rights of any other group in this country, but don't be dissin' Jeezus, 'cause that's persecution!

[Atman]

20. Poor bastards, only have churches on EVERY street corner

And half the channels on my $100-a-month cable are fucking nut jobs like Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson. They're soooooo persecuted.

[LittleClarkie]

43. Where do YOU live

I have taverns on every street corner here.

[radio4progressives]

51. wow.. maybe you should move up the block a bit...

[LittleClarkie]

58. Nah, the whole state's like that

Wisconsin, doncha know, home of St. Vincent Lombardi, where we celebrate communion with beer and pretzels.

[manic expression]

72. Don't make the mistake

of putting all organized religion into the same pot. There are many, many, many religious people who detest those nut jobs just as much as you do.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. Let the rest of us

know how that goes for you. Should be interesting!

[Inland]

41. If it fails, it could only be because they are too stupid to see

that they are stupid and evil, right?

Frankly, getting a little sick of people going out of their way to insult large groups of people on the concept that their religion is inherently destructive, stupid or insane on the grounds that it's good politics. In fact, it's bad politics. These guys go around venting and wonder why Joe and Mary Moderate have this antipathy to liberals.

And the worst is, after dealing it to all religious people without distinction, they start saying "hey, you're a christian, why can't you talk to your own kind?" It's as if liberal believers are supposed to eat the shit with a smile and then clean up the bad feelings in order to get a moderate foot in the door of religious believers.

[radio4progressives]

55. if you're not an athiesist or agnostic, why are you even reading this

thread?

[Inland]

64. Who said I wasn't an atheistic or agnostic? I guess because I'm

insane and evil, you assumed I am a believer.

[LittleClarkie]

67. Free country

Same reason atheists will invade a prayer thread and tell those present how stupid they are for worshiping a nonsensical sky pixie. If one doesn't pray, one would think one would avoid a prayer thread, but apparently that's not how it works.

Hence...

[DavidDvorkin]

3. My only quibble

Is that you single out the Christian and Muslim varieties. They're all utter nonsense.

[toymachines]

4. I agree

Check out this site:
Very well set up site that speaks the truth about organized religion, especially those with judaio-christian routes.

[TheGunslinger]

5. Uhhh.....

As an atheist, there are other issues behind the fight against abortion that just religion.


Myself, abortion for convenience is about the most selfish thing someone can do. IMO, abortion should only be legal for the first trimester or if the mother's life is in danger or in the case of rape. I know the fetus doesn't feel pain until something like 26th week but it seems a copout for someone to get one out of convenience.

Flame me if you will but nothing will change my opinion on that.

[Rex_Goodheart]

10. A copout? Why?

We do countless other things out of convenience. Why not terminate a pregnancy that nobody wants? The only actual person involved, with any personality, cognition, or emotions, is the mother.

[TheGunslinger]

Um, there's a father involved, too.

Perhaps the father would like the child.


And, yeah, it's a copout. We know too much about contraception for someone to go "oops, I don't really want to be pregnant." or... "oops, I'm pregnant. If I keep this baby he'll leave me." or some other inane crap.

There are many, many ways to prevent getting pregnant in the first place that are practically foolproof. Yes, some "accidents" happen with contraceptives but, damn, surely not enough to warrant 1.5 million abortions/yr. I think the condom and b.c. pill companies would be in every court in the land being sued.

[DURHAM D]

31. Let me guess - you are male.

When modern science evolves to the point you can carry a sperm to term I will listen to you.

Signed - a female

[TheGunslinger]

37. What's that have to do with anything?

The man helped create the baby. The man should have a say in the matter.

To flip the tables, it could then be said that all women in divorces don't receive child support.

[Arugula Latte]

44. The woman's "say" trumps the man's every time.

No uterus? No veto power.

[TheGunslinger]

49. That's BS and you know it.

[Arugula Latte]

56. No, I don't "know" it.

You can tell the woman your opinion, and she can take it into consideration, but until you can get pregnant, your opinion is #2 and not #1.

edited for grammar

[TheGunslinger]

That's essentially what I'm getting at but it seems some people...

can't control their emotions.

Seems some people up here are saying a man has ZERO say in the matter when that's total BS. The woman should discuss it with her boyfriend, husband, lover, whatever. It's ultimately the woman's decision but the man shouldn't be locked out of the process.

[Arugula Latte]

65. Well, if you say it's "ultimately" the woman's decision, that's different.

That's what I meant by the woman's opinion trumps the man's. She has the last say.

[TheGunslinger]

66. Perhaps we're just having some trouble synching up our communication.

;)

I certainly never meant to imply a man could force a woman to carry the baby to term.

[DURHAM D]

46. What's that have to do with anything? Just everything.

You think you own a woman's body for at least 9 months if you planted a sperm in it.

With regard to child support your sexism is showing again- you clearly think that only women receive primary custody post marriage.

I am done.

[TheGunslinger]

53. Way to put words in my mouth. Always engage in logical fallacies?

Where did I state I would "own" a woman's body for 9 months? Hmm?

Where did I say anything about primary custody? Hmm?

Care to point that out for me?


What I *am* saying is that making a baby is a TWO-PERSON transaction. A man has just as much right to be a father to the child as the woman does to being a mother.

[Arugula Latte]

61. No he doesn't if the woman doesn't want to carry it to term. n/t

[TheGunslinger]

62. See my post # (has no #) up above

[radio4progressives]

68. why did abortion get involved in this discussion?

I'm against the death penalty, which has nothing to with my athiesm.

please don't drag in the abortion debate - the issue of Scalito goes far beyond the issue of "abortions", I'm talking about other forms of Religious Tyranny which is running rampant in this christo-fascists taliban cutlure today.

[TheGunslinger]

70. Uh....did you not read the OP?

[gizmo1979]

6. We must point out their errors

and tales whenever we get the chance.They use fiction and manipulation to prove their points,we use the facts.One thing that religous zealots hate it's the facts.I've been screaming for years.I'm hoarse from screaming.The one thing we must remember is the powerful always think they are above the rules and sooner or later they make mistakes that take away their credibility in the end we will win.The mistakes are and have taken place it's only a matter of time before their house of cards falls to the ground.

[wryter2000]

7. an agnostic who disagrees

There is no reason to deny a woman dominion over her own body except for religion. There is no reason to consider a fetus a person except for religion. There is no reason to oppose legal prostitution except for religion. There is no reason to oppose gay marriage except for religion.

Sexual repression causes all these things, not religion. The two things are correlated in our society, but they aren't the same. It's entirely possible to be a prude and an atheist.

Plus, a very great number of people are inspired to do wonderful things by their religion. Anyone who truly follows the teachings attributed to Jesus is a better, more humane, and more ethical person than I am.

[Tom Bombadil]

16. I've never met an atheist prude

I have met sexually repressed Christians though.

[wryter2000]

21. And I've met Christians who are very healthy in their sexuality.

Don't let Robertson/Falwell et al. claim they own Christianity. They don't.

[Rex_Goodheart]

18. That sort of conciliatory tripe

has enabled the whackos to take over this country.

People inspired by nonsense to do wonderful things could be inspired by truth to do even better.

Anyone who truly follows the teachings of Jesus diminishes other humans in favor of some tyrannical super-ghost. It's a good thing not everyone emulates Jesus or we'd have a whole nation of unemployed people trying to stay at each other's houses and preaching to one another.

[wryter2000]

22. Kindness and gentleness -- yeah, we'd better avoid those n/t

n/t

[Ron Green]

23. Man, you like to stir shit, don't you?

[manic expression]

78. Tripe, indeed

Get a grip. Your generalizations don't help anyone. Ever hear of the term "shades of gray"?

Furthermore, terming it as you did is your own view, so try having some respect.

[leeroysphitz]

27. "It's entirely possible to be a prude and an atheist."

So you know my ex-wife too?

(sorry, I had to)

[DURHAM D]

35. In response to your final paragraph -

You might want to read the Sam Harris book - I think the title is "The End of Faith". I am reading right now and frankly, it is disturbing.

[Warpy]

39. Yeah, but screwball religion causes the sexual repression

In fact, I can't think of any mens' religion that doesn't have a strong sexual repression aspect, especially regarding women.

You know what a mens' religion is: male deity or deities, male officials, and a gazillion stupid and inconvenient rules, 90% of which are aimed at controlling all behavior of women.

Hell, some Buddhist sects have a lot of those stupid rules oppressing women, and Buddhism is an atheist spirituality.

I agree about Christians who actually try to follow the teachings being some of the best folks in the world. Jesus said nothing about abortion and refused to let a woman be executed for the sin of sex.

However, men have twisted the words in the book that features his teachings beyond all recognition in the name of crippling women beyond all recognition.

Religion is too often the tool used as a strait jacket, a chastity belt, a prison.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. damned straight. A very important topic.

check out this article. It rocks

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/

[SPKrazy]

9. Thanks for your broad brush opinion

All Christian religions are "utter nonsense"

I'll remember you in my prayers.

I certainly don't think of all atheists and agnostics as being "utter nonsense"

nor do I disagree that some of your logic is accurate.

However to lump all people of faith together is UTTER NONSENSE

[Rex_Goodheart]

11. You're welcome.

[wryter2000]

19. Thanks, Southpaw

I've almost given up on fighting the "religion is nonsense" threads. IMHO, it's just as arrogant to insist that there is no God as it is arrogant to claim you possess the only truth about God. If there is a God (I'm an agnostic), that entity would be beyond the reach of human intellect except by very indirect and imperfect means.

I'm truly sick of seeing all religion lumped in with the idiot Bible thumpers who claim to speak for Christianity in this country. We'd never allow that sort of stereotyping of an ethnic group.

[LittleClarkie]

26. The big shrug

always seemed like the more honest answer to me.

[radio4progressives]

30. People of faith are going to be offended - this is a discussion among

believers, people such as myself who feel extremely OPRESSED by "people of faith" and we're sick of the tyranny - so we're likely to have a few things to say that POF are likely not going to be too happy about.

deal with it.

[TheBaldyMan]

12. i can't disprove the existance of a god

without scientific proof it would be highly unscientific of me to state that gods don't exist.

To state otherwise is bad science.

[TheGunslinger]

13. Sounds too much like Pascal's Wager than "bad science"

[TheBaldyMan]

59. with the classical scientific method there are several stages

that compose the system. the wikipedia has an introduction on 'the scientific method'

Science is an open-ended, cyclical process rather than an absolute truth. Recent developments in probability theory and the heavy reliance of some fields on statistics prevent some theories being expressed as 'true' ; instead they have to be couched in terms of likelihood.

:long story:
I once had a very stimulating discussion on the subject of miracles. I met a guy who found out I had a scientific training (Astrophysics) and asked me if I believed in miracles. He told me that he always asked scientists that question and he wanted my opinion. I hadn't given it any thought before and after pondering the question for some time I said I couldn't deny that miracles happened. Mainly due to the fact that scientific data had to be reproducable and predictable. Miracles didn't strike me as the sort of thing that you could predict. I concluded that it would be highly unscientific to deny their existance but I couldn't prove that they existed either.

The guy told me that I'd given a better answer than most; usually he'd get fobbed off with a 'miracles don't exist' fatwa and they were just superstition. It turned out that the guy's mother had been diagnosed with an advanced inoperable cancer and given weeks to live. He told me that he'd prayed for a miracle to save his Mum and his prayers had been answered when she had a remission that had all the Doctors stumped. She lived for a good few years afterwards.

[TheGunslinger]

74. And people don't stop to think of the myriad other possibilities

Such as her DNA, certain treatment, overly-pessimistic diagnosis, etc.

[radio4progressives]

33. this isn't a thread to debate the issue of the existance of "god".

that's for a different thread.

this thread is a call to action...

[TheBaldyMan]

75. a call to action to decry religion as false is unscientific

thats what my initial post (#12) stated. I think that the OP should not use science the way the group he criticises use religon, as a shelter for dogmatism.

[politicat]

14. I don't know what else I can do - many letters and calls to my senators

in the past 4 weeks and getting my friends and family to do the same (they write the letter, email it to me, I fax it to their congress critters.)

Even my sort of conservative grannie is fighting against this piece of slime.

Time to get back to work with NARAL, I guess is next.

[LittleClarkie]

15. When you're done with that broad brush, can I paint my house with it?

I should be able to get a whole side with just one swipe.

[SmokingJacket]

17. Er, that's not going to swing anyone to our point of view, friend.

I think the separation of church and state protects religion as much as it protects the state -- it's good for everyone, religious or not.

Screaming at religious people that they're stupid is not going to work.

[Rex_Goodheart]

29. Nobody is asking you to scream at religious people that they're stupid...

What I'm asking you to do is to show them that as intelligent people they should not be subscribing to nonsense.

You might want to check out the "Kissing Hank's Ass" story. Tell it to them. Once they get over their initial anger it sometimes sinks in.

[Inland]

32. Just asking them to say it quietly and calmly. And often.

After all, the premise of the conversation is going to be that an intelligent person like them shouldn't be causing all that is evil in the world, like, for example, keeping prostitution illegal.

So, I gotta ask. How many UnConverts you got so far?

[SmokingJacket]

36. Do you know any religious people?

I'm a secular humanist, but lots of my friends are religious. None of them are Fristians, but I know some very liberal Christians and Jews. They are every bit as smart as I am, but came to different conclusions than I did. I have to respect that. I don't agree, but I respect.

I'd no sooner try to convince them to become agnostics than I would welcome them trying to convert me!

[LittleClarkie]

52. In other words, you want people to evangelize for atheism?

Interesting concept.

[radio4progressives]

24. Americans United for Separation of Church and State

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation

[Cleita]

25. The problem with that is you engender instant hostility when

you attack the beliefs of the religious. I think a better tactic is to insist that separation of church and state is necessary to preserve their freedom to practice the religion of their choice. When you present the fact that their religion may not be the one that becomes the state religion, it often opens their eyes.

[Inland]

28. The city didn't take my trash today. Fucking religion!

Stupid religious assholes thought my carpet remnants were too big, probably thought it was the Will of God that they not accept it. Have a good time at church praying to some sky monkey instead of picking up my trash, stupid incredulous insane idiots!

[LittleClarkie]

34. I wish there was a rating system for posts sometimes

here at DU. You'd get a 4 from me for that.

[Inland]

48. four out of five, I presume. nt

[LittleClarkie]

60. Nah, thinking Daily Kos

4's the top.

[Colorado Blue]

38. Great. This is a fine example of religious tolerance, which

is one of the pillars of American democracy.

[radio4progressives]

47. what democracy? I don't see no democracy, not here in Amurika..NT

[A-Schwarzenegger]

40. Congrats on Flamebait of the Day.

[radio4progressives]

45. You support Arrrnuld Schwarzenggar? ??

[A-Schwarzenegger]

54. You soberrrrrrr? ??

[radio4progressives]

42. Why do "People of Faith" Think it's their Prerogative to Dictate

which brand of mysticism others should believe, unsolicited i might add?

[Arugula Latte]

50. Right. And if you question them YOU'RE the asshole,

but if you don't profess a belief in a Big Sky Fairy or something then you're the unreasonable one. :wtf:

[usregimechange]

57. I'm an atheist who is NOT in such a battle. Religion good as well

[Mutley]

63. Silly me. I thought tolerance was a liberal virtue.

Look, I'm an atheist, but I refuse to go about doing the same thing that so many do to us: bashing people for their beleifs.

I wanna get rid of Alito as much as you, but I'm going to find a more liberal way of doing it, thanks.

[Rex_Goodheart]

76. Yes, silly you...

Who asked you to be intolerant of them? What I'm asking people to do is to inform them that what they believe is utter nonsense, just as they have no qualms, whatsoever, in telling me how "immoral" my atheism is.

[Mutley]

79. "Hey, Christian, what you believe is utter nonsense!"

That seems pretty intolerant to me.

I try not to stoop to their level.

[PWRinNY]

69. They start wars on themselves

As a former fundie/evang christian, to someone who toyed with atheism and agnosticism and finally settled (for now) to call myself a Deist - I can tell you these people BELIEVE with ALL their hearts, that they are persecuted, as Christians, by the rest of the world. It's what is preached to them at home, with their friends, at their churches, in their literature. They can even find it in their Bibles, which they do not question EVER.

The fact of the matter is that the persecution is not real. It is a mass delusion among them. They have to believe they are being persecuted and that wars are being waged against them, or else their Bible is false, and everything they have ever learned in their whole lives has been a lie, a blantant lie.

As someone who's gone through this crisis of faith and loss of self identification, I can tell you, nothing is going to make the masses believe that they're not in a spiritual war. Each person has to just start thinking for himself or herself, one day, question the faith, do a little research, and WAKE UP. And that's a damn hard thing to do when your future is heaven or paradise with no evildoers, when they honestly believe they are just trying to "save" their children.

The brainwashing for them is intense. Writing from a "takes one to know one" point of view.

[LittleClarkie]

71. Fundies are one thing

but I hope that you recognize that there are different types of Christians. I will NOT be lumped in with Pat Robertson.

[PWRinNY]

77. Absolutely

I didn't mean to lump them all together. My mother is still a Christian, but not a fundie/evang like we used to be. Apologies for any confusion. Definitely different kinds of Christians. I like to think of them as the real Christians (the ones who follow the teachings of a tolerant loving Christ in the New Testament) and the fake Christians (AKA Pharisees - who think the oppressive, repressive Old Testament represents Christ - who was never even in the OT). I have nothing at all against REAL Christians - and I try to live by Christian standards myself, even if I'm not a believer. Again, my apologies for any offense with my last post. Thanks LittleClarkie. :)

[applegrove]

73. It is only one narrow group of religious extremists we have to worry

about. Don't paint all with the same brush!

[Moderator]

80. Locking

This thread has run its course