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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:10 PM
Original message
Just had a Freeper encounter....
And I look forward to cultivating this relationship.

This isn't going to be one of those knock-down, drag 'em out stories of someone getting laid out in lavender or publicly humiliated. This is more important because I'm working on opening a door into what is almost certainly a closed mind. And I would hope that all DU'ers take such an approach whenever possible.

When I went into the corner gas station tonight I noticed a new face behind the counter. This is nothing unusual of course, mini-mart employees have a fairly high turnover rate. This one seems to have a higher rate than others, but I'd like to think it hasn't anything to do with me scaring them off or anything... so let's not dwell on that.

The one girl had been there for a few months and recognized me quite readily. Neither of the two brighter young people I enjoy chatting about politics with were there tonight... again - let's not dwell on why. But there was a young man I had not seen until tonight working behind the counter. He was tall - about 6', lanky, light complexion, short brown hair, brown eyes, and a honker that wouldn't have fit on any other face but his own.

He didn't immediately strike me as dull... which is unusual as my freeper-radar, or 'free-dar', tends to go shrill whenever anyone who's ever needed movies like 'Zoolander' or 'This is Spinal Tap' explained to them, or has ever purchsed five 4oz cans of tuna at 89 cents each because it was cheaper than buying one 20oz can at $4...

But in this case his disposition was made quite evident upon my first comment when I was asked by the regular girl, "So how are you today?"
My usual response is to say, "Fantastic!", "Fabulous!", or "Groovy.", but today wasn't all that stellar, so I reverted to the most negative response I ever give;

"Well... I didn't wake up in a Korean Prison Camp this morning..."

To which she gave the response I would expect; "Well I guess that's good then."

And that's when, seizing upon my 'prison camp' reference, our Freep-boy chimed in;

"Did you hear what we found out the Russians (I'm sure he meant 'Soviets') used to do to people in their prisons?"

My fellow DU'ers, I have all of you to thank for the cumulative indignance and outrage instilled in me through the tireless efforts of those in the reality-based community to inform that filled me at that moment, and myself to thank for the restraint I summoned to only let slip this one, little, question;

"You mean like what we do?"

He paused short, and looked quizzically at me (OK, freepers don't look 'quizzical'- let's say 'dumbfounded').

Freep-boy: "What do you mean"

Me: "Well... nevermind. Tell me about what they did."

FB: "They used to do stuff to people, where they'd make them stand for 24 hours straight without sleep or anything... in their own crap!"

(You... Can... All... Imagine... My... Shock.)
I shit you not, he really did say that, to which I of course replied;

"Yeah... Like we do."

FB: "What do you mean?"

Me: "Do you read the news?"

FB: "Well, yeah... what are you talking about?" (Fox News Rocks!)

Me: "You haven't heard about the secret prisons set up by the CIA in the old Soviet Blocs. We use them for extraordinary rendition."

(now here's the part I found suspicious...)

FB: "That's awesome!"

Me: "What do you mean?"

FB: "We have to do that, you know... if someone has information we need, we gotta get it. We gotta bring 'em right to death... just to where they think they're gonna die... that's the only way to get it."

Me: "And of course we hope we have the right people."
(His eyes baste over)

FB: "Well we should just kill them all."
(no shit folks)

So at this point, not wanting to resort to just calling him an idiot, I turn to the girl behind the counter to his right who has been paying wrapt attention (a first) and say, "Wouldn't that be just so easy?"
She stares.

Me: "It would just be so much easier just to be able to do that, don't you wish it were that easy?"
-She wants nothing to do with the question... as I'd hoped.
Me: "Unfortunately, it's far too complicated a situation to handle that way... what a shame that is, right?"

FB: "Complicated? What do you mean?"

Me: "Well, it's something you'd really have to want to know... and there's quite a bit to it."

FB: (mildly incredulous) "I wanna know... tell me."

I turn to the girl; "I love filling people in on the real nitty-gritty, but I can only educated people who want to be..." Back to him; "Do you really want to know?"

FB: (Finally assuming open body language) "Yeah... I'm all ears."

Me: "Ok, first you have to know some things... have you heard of 'reserve currency'?"

FB: "What's that?"

Me: "Ok, hold on... do you know what an 'Oil Bourse' is?"

FB: "Oil 'burst'?"
(again... I shit you not)

Me: "No... 'B'..'O'..'U'..'R'..'S'..'E'- 'Bourse'."

FB- "No... so tell me."

Me: "let's start with 'reserve currency' because that's pretty important..."

I then went on to explain what reserve currency is, why the US dollar has been the world's reserve for many decades, and how important it has been to our economy.
He nodded along listlessly for a while, but not without some grasp of the concept... this was encouraging.

Then he asked what that had to do with what I was 'talking about before', and I asked him if he was going to be in during the week. He said that he would so I told him I'd be back, but in the meanwhile if he seriously wanted to know he had to go online and look up 'reserve currency'. (oh shit... I forgot to tell him how to spell it!)

And at that, I left the store.

If I can bring a kid like this into the light, it'll be worth it. I don't hold out a lot of hope, but I'm going to take this very delicately.

He doesn't know it yet, but he's just become a hobby.

This is going to take a while, but I will report on my progress.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like a great beginnig. Make sure to keep us posted as to how your
"student" is doing. :D
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XboxWarrior Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Good luck with that Kid.........
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lonecentrist Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Why do you even bother talking politics to a sales clerk?
Thank you or have a nice day is enough dialog.

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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. HAHAHAHA What A Hoot You Are! Hey Dr E Never Talk Politics To Sales Clerks
The Political Discourse Police Have Just Arrived. Woot! Hey lone if you are that totally apolitical why did you come here?:eyes:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. Good question Binka.
BTW. How is your son doing?
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
71. "HE STARTED IT!!!"
Oh Binka, If only you could see how Homeland security is spreading out all over this country... Goering would be so proud.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #71
78. My Older Kids Want Me To Come Back To The USA
Well actually they want my wallet to come back but I digress, I will not bring my five year old into that toxic environment. She speaks fluent Italian and swims like a fish. 2020 Peyton wins multiple gold for the Italian swim team. She can then take care of her old mommy who sacrificed so much to have her at age 42!:evilgrin:

Not coming stateside anytime soon. You are doing a good thing D_ e keep up the fight.

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. OMG, What a gorgeous little Doll!
Beware that professional swimmers tend to suffer serious shoulder issues after college.

Good luck to you all!
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Good Crikey Her Shoulders Are The Least Of My Worries
Is Bush eating a ferret in your posts?
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Squirrel.... there are a few layers to the joke I guess
-But I don't know where it originates.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
72. Why not?
Just because they're clerking in a store doesn't mean that they're dumb and can never learn (this guy was kid, for Pete's sake. This is probably his first or second job) and, hey, this kid may vote (if not now, soon).
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good luck with that.
You've got a lot more patience than I do.
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hopeisaplace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. These are the first posts I click on, and my favorite to read
thank you!...I could read these posts all day long :)

great going by the way, you're awesome!
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
73. I love them, too.
I think it's because I live in a red state (my city is blue - in the city - but when I venture out to the county, it's like Deliverance) and they give me some tips on handling these numbnuts.
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Reverse currency? Isn't that like four quarters for a dollar?"
I'm sorry, I think you're wasting your time with this nimrod.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. That remains yet to be seen.
I'll keep tabs in my journal after I stop there.
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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. don't give up.
I was a nimrod once.

Now, just look at me, spelling things all correctly and stuff, and posting on D.U. Hell, only 25 years ago (at age 12) I wore a little fetus feet pin on my wool jacket lapel and participated in the Right to Life march in the middle of freezing cold January in Michigan. I LIVED in freeperville.

Sometimes, we grow up not knowing any better, and it takes people like you to edumacate us.

:)

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I liked Reagan....
Because I was raised Republican.

Not because he was a good President. Now I know that he was not that great a President even if he might have been a good person.

It took knowledge... it always does.

And thanks.:patriot:
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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
51. Oh no!
You just reminded me I went door to door with a group of kids from my civics class handing out propaganda for Reagan. I had totally blocked that from my memory.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. LOL... as a cog-psych researcher...
I get that alot!

(Sorry 'bout that...)
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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #53
75. cog psych -- oh no oh no! The memories are all flooding back now.
stop the madness! :)
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. Just make sure nobody is wating in line behind you
while you are yakking away. It will turn people off really fast. I firmly believe that standing in line while the checker and a customer are gabbing will piss people off more than anything else will, including political beliefs. And that can get ugly.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Oddly enough, I've always been able to assume a certain
'neutrality' in these discussions that leave most people disarmed. (not that I always do so... sometimes it's fun twisting knickers)

But no matter what, any incidental education that someone might receive is worth it. Best case- they learn something that revises their beliefs, worst case- they get that strange nagging sensation in the back of their consciousness about facts they can't reconcile with the bullshit they believe.

Either way, truth wins.

Anyone who can't speak in public about these things lacks conviction... especially when the facts are on their side.
One's own place of employment is another thing. But when you're the customer, speak out, but do it neutrally and with little or no opinion... people will listen if you -gently- challenge their ability to digest information.

See where I have my 'conversations';
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Dr_eldritch/4

Just do it... the time is critical. What will you be able to honestly say you did when we are lamenting the death of Democracy in America or celebrating it's return?

Fuck them if they get turned off! Good German citizens were 'turned off' by 'politics' as well... they let it happen because it was easier that way.

Fuck that.

Just do it. Get out there and do something, no matter how small.
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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nice work...
...but he's only get the crap kicked out of him by his father when he mentions this at the dinner table. One mind at a time though.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Words of encouragement to you, you are doing good
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Keep us posted. I wish there was more like you. nt
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Us vs Them Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. I do NOT have nearly as much patience as you apparently do.
Usually "we should just kill them all" will signal a lost cause for me, however his curiosity is promising.

Keep up the good work!
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. You have to remember where he comes from.
He turns on his television and gets Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CNN even if then only a cursory glance. How many books or magazines do you think he has read? Then he experiences the American educational system.

What chance does he have? Yes, it is great you spoke to him but I wonder if he really is a Freeper?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Good, good...........
don't let him find out where you live or work, and never be anywhere but IN PUBLIC with this kid.

You're pushing water uphill, but, you know, we all have to do it, and I commend you.

If you feed them, they respond faster. Did you know that?

Bring him a Quiznos sub and watch him start to worship you and vote Democrat.....................

Seriously, good on you. GREAT post. Thanks.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. I understand the hobby part.
I'm in Visalia Calif. (very red in a blue state. People here actually still have W stickers on their cars, and don't seem to be ashamed) visiting my brother and family for a couple of weeks. He and his wife are born aginers, which, I expect means that they were not born right the first time. I, on the other hand am a gun owning, meat eating, Green Party Socialist. Fortunatly, though we argue politics endlessly, we still love each other dearly.

I have actually gotten him to turn his shop radio (he has An HVAC shop) to Air America. But the best news is that his son, who was raised as a fundy, is actually learning to think. We have long conversations about religion and politics. I never tell him what to think, I just ask him questions and ask him to do some homework on the internets and get back to me. The kids eyes are opening and I love it!
Bud
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. "He's just become a hobby." - LOL
I look forward to your progress reports!
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Is that like having a pet freep?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. We should ALL have a pet freep.
Adopt a Freep today. There are thousands wandering around without a clue. Won't you help?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Pet freeps.... OMG!
This is good. Looking forward to updates. Trying to learn to be more patient.
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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. So Doc- There's this woman who vigils w/me- Makes me wanna scream!
She just started showing up lately and I shit you not-
I bring up PNAC- "What, I've never heard of that
and I read the New York Times everyday"

Tried very hard to do PNAC 101 and she wouldn't budge...
"I get my news from the New York Time" and she had
seriously NO CURIOUSITY about it! Thank Goodness a
scientist from Woods Hole was also near-by ( he had
never heard about PNAC either) but couldn't stop
asking questions.

So she's on our side- But DOESN"T HAVE A CLUE!

I'm thinking your encounter had a bigger impact
than mine.

PS- 24 hr vigil Arlington East-Nauset Beach Aug 6th!

Peace
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. So sorry... I didn't make it down last year.
I'll probably be in Naussett the first Sunday in August, then in Barnstable.

It would be lovely to attend, don't let me off the hook!

My mother, who is very intelligent, doesn't absorb what I tell her about the PNAC either. She still calls it a 'conspiracy theory' to which I patiently explain that, "No... it's a fact in black ink on white paper and signed by Dick Cheney, Jeb Bush, Willam Kristol, Doug Feith, Paul Wolfowitz...(etc.)- and it states VERY clearly their intention to invade Iraq."

Yet because it's not on Fox News, it's just not real to her.
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life_long_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. At least, not all mini-mart employees are freepers.
I walked into a store the other day and the clerk, a guy about 21 years old, was listening to his radio. It was tuned into Air America Radio. I said " that's pretty cool that you're listening to Big Eddie." He replied " he's o.k., but I like Randi Rhodes alot more."

Well, I'm guessing that he wasn't a freeper. I was in a hurry, so we never discussed politics.

I just thought it was cool.




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Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
Good luck with your "project"... Boohahahaha!!!!:evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. lol - I have to learn to be more patient
I have the hardest time biting my tongue - though mostly I just try to ignore fools.

I hope your "hobby" ends up being a worthwhile investment :D
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crizzo5137 Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
23. get over it and get a life
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I have an amazing life...
With many accomplishments and wonderful experiences.

What is your problem with my educating someone and sharing the experience?

You seem to have issues. Would you care to explain your comment?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Looks like our new friend crizzo took an involutary hike.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. LOL!! "What would you like on your...
Tombstone?"

:rofl:

Can't help it, I'm a child of TV. Cracks me up everytime. :)
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Yeah... I am definitely amused...
Unfortunately they always get nailed before I get a chance to discuss their 'positions'. I would rather they leave enlightened or unsettled than ignorantly indignant.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Not really new...
spent a year building up to it.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
69. DU's Boot Hill should be designated as a Superfund Site
So much toxic waste! :puke:
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
27. I had my own encounter over the fence today.
Edited on Wed May-24-06 12:41 AM by troubleinwinter
Well, there is no fence... I just moved to 'red' Arizona from 'blue' California, and most folks here don't have fences... the wildlife just runs on through.

My father and I were walking though my backyard discussing plans for planting. I hadn't met the back neighbor before, just a wave or two. This time we all said hello. He is late 70's or eighty.

We talked about the fact that his cactus is in bloom, and he said, "So, I don't want to talk politics or anything, but what do you think about this 'global warming' thing"? My father is a retired astronomer/physicist/geologist. He said, "Well, it is of very great concern."

Neighbor said, "Oh yeah? Well I don't want to talk Democrat (sic) or Republican, but that Al Gore says the glaciers are going to raise the water level 20 feet. Now, I'm telling you, that I learned in the fourth grade that in 2,244 BC, when the continents divided, it made the cold water go under the warm water, and we've had warming ever since. So I have done the calculations, and even if all the glaciers melt, it can't raise the ocean 1/4". Look how the oceans haven't risen since the continents split in 2,244 BC! People and combustion are NOT causing any warming. Maybe the asphalt streets are, a little bit, but look, we need those."

Sometime during this nonsense, I decided it was vital for me to pick up twigs in my yard and veer away from my new neighbor... I knew he wouldn't miss me or think anything of it, my being a woman and all.

My poor, decent father cut the man off politely, and said, "Well, it is something about which we must all try to do the best we can." and walked away.

Sometimes one mustn't cast pearls before those who would trample them underfoot.

The fella at your corner store is young, and with some exposure, may possibly learn something. I don't think this guy will. After all, he's known that the continents split in 2,244 BC, since he was in the 4th grade, which is a lot more than the astronomer/physicist/geologist retired from NASA ever knew! At least the guy prefaced his comments by assuring us that he didn't want to talk politics or Democrats or Republicans, but only mention "that Al Gore"!

GADS.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Yowch!
Sounds like the textbooks ,y mother learned from! 2,244 BC, indeed.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. Oh.... My.... God....
And the GOP wants to churn out people like this?

Your father knew the moment the guy said 2,244 BC that there would be no enlightenment here.

Be very slow and cautious with the kid. I live in a deep 'blue' state and needn't be concerned of real reprecussion. But if you say something and the kid spouts it off later... you may find yourself on the business end of a witch hunt.

Be careful and God Bless.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. I was wondering where that "2,244 BC" ref could've come from.
came upon this:

http://www.westsidegracechurch.com/fromthepastorspen/fromthepastorspen.html


The Bible seems to teach that not only was the earth created as one land mass but also there was a time when that land mass was divided. The question that now remains is when specifically did it take place.

...

it becomes apparent that the division spoken of in Genesis 10:5 happened after the events of the Tower of Babel in Genesis chapter 11. Dr. Peter S. Ruckman agrees with this analysis by saying, "the chances are the reference is to Dueteronomy 32 verses 7-9, which takes place at Genesis 11 verses 7-8. if this is so, 2244-2006 B.C. would date the Tower of Babel within 200 years" (Ruckman 286).


So there ya go!

Simple as pi (which the truly devout also don't believe in...)

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. How can one argue with this......?
OUR BELIEFS:

1. We believe that the entire Bible is inspired of God, is without error, and is of plenary authority (II Tim. 3:16; II Peter)
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #40
49. Ah-hah!!!!
I was thinking that his 2244BC fit in pretty well with a 6,000 year old earth. Interesting! Thanks! I will tell my dad where my neighbor got his 'scientific proof'!
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
42. awww your dad sounds wonderful
the fact that he stood there and had the patience to listen to a 4th grade education explanation on "global warming" just says how wonderful he is.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. 2,244 BC????? The only answer to that is to walk away, as you did.
:crazy: :silly:

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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
74. Well, using the word, "Democrat" for "Democratic" is a tip-off
that the fella had been listening to Reich-wing talk radio.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. I thought it was pretty funny that he said
"that Al Gore", instead of simply "Al Gore". Told me a lot there, too.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
29. What an excellent 'test case'!
Let us know of your progress. This is interesting!
:thumbsup:
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truckin Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
34. Maybe you could share the freeper lessons with all of us. I know
that I would benefit from some of this information.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. There is sooooo much that these people don't know...
and I find it hard to blame them.

In order to believe what they do, they must willfully ignore so many facts, laws, precedents, and very clear moral conflicts, that they are left woefully uneducated.

The thing that I blame them for is that they are willfully uneducated. We all have the option to learn, we are very lucky to still have the resource of the internet to look anything up with a modicum of reassurance as to it's veracity. We can reasonably find nearly anything, any information, and have a very good idea of how accurate it is. All we need is a little diligence and ingenuity.

Knowing that, when someone is presented with a factual position, that someone has the obligation to do one of three things;

1) Trust that the information is correct and argue their own position with that in account.
2) Yeild their position and adopt a new one with respect to that information.
3) Go look up the information, ascertain it's accuracy, find and understand it's broader context, form a stronger position through understanding/compromise.

By far option '3' is the best but entails some footwork, but given the internet there is no excuse not to at least make an effort. (Provided one has access to the internet)
Unfortunately, most 'Republicans' nowadays choose option '4';

4) Assume that because the person is obviously a liberal, they are only spouting the same kind of 'rhetoric' that everyone does and therefore can be dismissed out of hand... just ignore them and call them the names you were told to call them; "Terrorist lover", "America hater", "Barbara Streisand"... whatever epithet works.

They find comfort in their 'sources' like Fox 'news' and Rush, but when presented with facts they simply withdraw into their protective world.
I once had to berate a guy into looking up 'Habeas Corpus' after he kept insisting that I was a terrorist lover because I insisted that the Jose Padilla case was badly botched... which it was.

If you want, the best places to start on why the US is circling the drain are here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/defying_the_suicide_economy.php

Get through those, and don't hesitate to ask questions.
Once you understand how it all ties together, you'll see the big picture, understand the real problems, see the solutions... and like most of us... wish you could just crawl into a hole rather than take up the fight.

But fight we must, and I will be damned to hell before I give up doing anything I can afford to.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. Janeane Garafalo calls it "willful ignorance" too, and it makes her
angry as hell. She spouts about it constantly on Majority Report 7-10PM EDT on Air America Radio. :D
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Janeane? Is that you?
(LOL- I love your work!)

Yeah, the more I listen to her the more I think we should go out for coffee and plot social engineering mischief.

The 'Powers that Be' have successfully divided the US into two camps each with a solid signature trait-

The 'Empiricists', and the 'Ideologues'.

Both believe in their ideas, only one side lives in reality.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. I also love her rants...and know that she is one who would, could and does
speak truth to power. I can so empathize when she gets so angry and frustrated that she literaly sputters. :D
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
41. I'm glad to see you found a new hobby Eldritch!
I think if anyone can talk him down off of that ledge its you.

The fact that he was inquisitive and not dismissive is a good sign.

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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
43. Thanks for the good example
I'm not sure I can do this stuff - I suffer from grumpy old man syndrome.

However, it is the right way to approach these people. They can't help that they are information deprived.
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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
52. I don't get it.
You say it was "Soviets" not "Russians"? Was the delightful commie system run entirely by Lithuanians then? Or maybe the Kazakhs? Surely not those peace-loving Russians, is that it? It's just such a shame the Soviets didn't win WWIII, we all would have been better off under their rule. Tough luck about this internet thing though, heck, you couldn't even have copiers or fax machines. Ah, the good old days back in the USSR.

But, I must say, I see your point. Millions of people tortured and starved to death in the "Soviet" Gulag is considerably less offensive than our brutal actions in Gitmo. How many prisoners have we tortured to death at Gitmo and elsewhere? It's in the 100's of millions by now isn't it?

BFEE evil textiles must be stopped!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Here you go;
http://www.megaessays.com/viewpaper/75797.html

The 'Soviet Socialist Party' ruled Russia and set up these gulags. Yes, everyone in Russia was primarily Russian, but not everyone in Russia was part of the Soviet Socialist party.
Just like the vast majority of people in United States Republic are American, but not all Americans are Republicans.

Cleared up?
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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Wow!
You mean to tell me that the United States is a representative republic and not a democracy? Shocking stuff!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Yes, it is... but perhaps not for long.
Edited on Wed May-24-06 01:06 PM by Dr_eldritch
Speaking of 'not for long';
I suggest you go to your inbox.

Soon.
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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. And then what happens?
Edited on Wed May-24-06 01:33 PM by Opening_Day
It will become a Democracy? :yourock:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. LOL...
No, not quite.

We are more likely to descend into a fascist state as the executive usurps more and more authority over the legislative branch. This progress is very well documented, and as history has shown us - it inevitably leads to the same end... fascism.

We all need to face this no matter how easy it may be to simply cast derision upon those who are signaling it's approach.

Just Think about it... what if they're right?

don't you agree?
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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I AM concerned about descent into a tyrannical state
Edited on Wed May-24-06 01:37 PM by Opening_Day
ruled by unelected oligarchs. Just not from the same direction as you. As the Judiciary usurps more and more authority from the Legislative and Executive, tyranny becomes more likely. Thomas Jefferson, the founder of the great Democratic party had this to say:

"The Constitution . . . meant that its coordinate branches should be checks on each other. But the opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch."

—Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1804. ME 11:51

"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem , and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves."

—Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:277

Gotta run, I'll check the Inbox tomorrow. BTW :yourock:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Good points all...
I didn't have too much of a problem with the appointment of Roberts, but Alito's views on Unitary Executive Theory are very unsettling.

The one thing that sets the Federal Judiciary apart from the Executive and Legislative, however is the corporate access. With the Judiciary, corporations have very little access. With Congress and the Executive they have point-blank access and huge influence.

If we, as a nation, can get notoriously short-sighted corporate influences out of Congress and the White House, we will be much further along towards real prosperity.

Make no mistake, I know where you are coming from.

Please make an effort to stick around, and for the time being...

'Welcome to DU'
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. I could be wrong
but I currently believe the Executive branch is not only stealing power from the Legislative, but also "stacking the deck" in the Judicial branch. I for one, don't believe in the boogeyman of the "Activist Judge" which seems to scare you and many others so much. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying that it's overblown, in my opinion.

I will agree that the potential for damage is very great, but I have yet to see much evidence that is is doing as much harm as you imply. I feel that Jefferson's outright distrust of the Supreme Court is understandable, yet you also have to realize that the potential for corruption of said court lies also with the other two branches, in that they are the ones who decide who sits on that court.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. How terribly rational and sensible of you....
Edited on Wed May-24-06 05:46 PM by Dr_eldritch
Although I disagree that the "potential for corruption of said court" is so very great considering the Justices that have consistently ruled contrary to their perceived ideologies after being confirmed.

Like I said, I know Roberts is very conservative, but I read him as a paleo/federal conservative (not the other way around).

Alito is a scary critter.

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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Stacking the court!
Edited on Wed May-24-06 06:47 PM by Opening_Day
There was once an attempt at "stacking the deck" wherein the size of the Supreme Court was doubled, and all Justices over age 70 were to be forcibly retired. The goal was the installation of 13 new Justices who would be supportive of Executive branch initiatives. Interestingly, this same President authorized internment camps considerably larger than Guantanomo in which 100,000+ US citizens and aliens were placed. Of course I am referring to FDR, an acknowledged hero of the Democratic party and renowned architect of the social safety net system. So, who knows what future historical evaluations hold for B*sh?

The current administration with majority legislature is replacing retiring Justices as is Constitutionally provided. There really is no basis for an argument that the method of replacing Justices is illegally stacked. Of course, as we all know, those devious Republicans stole the last several elections with their Diebold machines so, at the inception, all of their efforts are criminal!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. LOL....
Do read your mail.

What on Earth makes you think the Republicans "Stole" the 'last several elections'?

I'd need to see some good evidence.
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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #70
77. Gosh
That was mean.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. What was?
Sure it's sardonic... but it's sincere.

I would definitely need to see good evidence to believe that the elections were 'stolen'.

Do you have any?
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Opening_Day Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. My inbox
Edited on Thu May-25-06 01:21 PM by Opening_Day
was most harsh.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. But fair.
If I made assumptions that you deem erroneous, then you need only review your first impressions to understand my reasoning. You have my apologies if you are genuinely taken aback.

I'm very glad that you are indeed here to contribute.

Welcome to DU.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. I realize that and agree
and I don't really see how the wrongs of one person can be used to justify the wrongs of another.

For what it's worth, I used to be a lot more right-leaning until I woke up to the BS a long time ago. I don't consider myself a Democrat or a Republican, per se, but if I have to choose I will go with the Dems in that they are not trying to remove my Constitutional rights and shove a religion which is not mine down my throat.

Any "unintentional" sarcasm aside, while Bush is indeed replacing retired justices, his picks have been less than stellar examples of judicial experience in my (and many others') opinion, and appear to be nothing more than a game of high-stakes quid pro quo. You seem to understand history (or at least one side of it); look into the strange connections of who helped Bush in 2000 and where they are now.

And as many, both mainstream and fringe, agree that there were unaccounted for anamolies in the last three elections, leaving lasting stretch marks on the law, yes I would say the last three elections were heavily tampered with.

Although the media has largely refrained from even discussing it despite the learned observations from both sides, the quality of our current electoral process needs inquiry more than misplaced humorous attack.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
62. uh
I'd have to agree with your subject line.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
64. Read the following on www.econbrowser.com, what do you think?
Where shall I begin? Well, for starters, you don't need to acquire any U.S. assets in order to purchase a barrel of oil that is priced in dollars. You could pay with eurodollars, which are dollar-denominated accounts that could be issued by any bank anywhere in the world.

And even if the oil were purchased with dollars drawn on a U.S. bank, there is no reason at all that the seller needs to retain the proceeds in that form. Those selling oil could convert those dollars back to euros or Japanese yen or whatever their hearts desired, and likewise could convert euros obtained through sales on an Iranian bourse back into dollars, if they wished. What ultimately determines the demand for dollars is not the unit of account for the transaction, but rather the desired asset holdings of those who are accumulating the wealth.

You could buy gold right now in New York for dollars or in London for pounds. Which one is cheaper? Guess what-- you'll pay exactly the same price either place once you make the currency conversion at the current exchange rate. The same will surely hold for crude oil.

And the notion that the U.S. dollar is currently "backed by oil" is so nonsensical that it is difficult even to fathom what that phrase is intended to convey. When we say that under a gold standard, the dollar is backed by gold, I know exactly what that means-- it means you can surrender dollars at any time to obtain a fixed amount of gold promised by the government. But if you surrender dollars on any given day in May 2006, how much oil are you going to get back? It varies literally by the minute, and the rate at which dollars get exchanged for oil has nothing to do with the promises made by any government and everything to do with market fluctuations in supply and demand.

Which is also my explanation for the prevalence of these theories on the internet-- there is a demand for a deeply conspiratorial interpretation of world events, and always someone willing to supply such.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Hmmm....
So I gather you are saying that trading oil for anything but dollars globally will not float the USD on the energy market?
Ok. I'll accept that for now.

But what of the 'Reserve Currency' status of the dollar? That is not under threat?
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #67
80. I'm not saying anything. I asked what you thought of the article.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
66. Sounds like Club Gitmo, Limbaugh's vacation resort.
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PublicRadioVet Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
81. I am sorry, this all seems rather smug, and a little creepy!
Perhaps you will win the lad over.

But, having spent some time behind the counter myself, I would wager that as soon as you left the store, the fellow rolled his eyes and declared, "What the fuck was that?!"

Even dullards know when they are being patronized.

The tone of this indicates that you weren't as interested in "education" as you were in displaying your superiority before, and above, the local yocal set.

All well and good I suppose, if you were out for a few yuks.

But people don't enjoy being lead on or lectured or made to seemed foolish. I don't think any doors have ever been opened in this regard.

Just my opinion, as someone who has encountered by fair share of 'freeper' mentality.

P.S: it goes both ways, as ignorance is the domain of youth on both sides of the ideological divide. I can say this as a 32-year old back in college again and dealing with the nicest, most unthinking liberal children you can imagine, at Seattle Central Community College.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Even dullards know when they are being patronized.
that statement works both way ya know!! Welcome to DU :hi:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. As I've said before...
Whether here or elsewhere I cannot be sure.

'If the least effective outcome is the infinitesimal possibility that he will face the machinations of his own ignorance, then it's worth it.'
-This is something I have a great deal of experience with. I can assure you that my attitude was gauged to elicit a particular internal reaction based upon my, admittedly cursory, assesment of him. If I don't get it... c'est la gare.

You are absolutely correct however, I did indeed come of as you say. This was an adversarial appeal to his sense of superiority... I'm guessing that he will most likely want to prove to himself that he is morally superior in some fashion or another, and it is by that I will pull him into the world of facts.

The best part is... as a customer there are no social constraints on me so long as I am cordial at least. And I do tend to be more inviting than simply cordial in those situations.

In this case, when I say 'kid', I'm talking about someone in their mid-twenties.

If I have miscalculated, then your well-founded opinion will prove the mode.
But even then I can't 'lose' as at the very least I will have both irritated a hammer-head, and forced him deeper into his fantasy world from which his inexorable emergence will be that much more harsh.

But thanks for sayin'.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
87. no hope for them
hopelessly stupid
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nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
91. Understanding what a reserve currency is by itself is pointless..
Without having a fuller macroeconomic background, and paired with the "oil bourse scourge"... it's somewhat unethical to brainwash someone like this.
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