Anyone want to see the strength of the CHINESE MILITARY?

[file83]

Holy crappola. The United States military would get a run for their money if they ever tried to battle these guys.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9i5zjMjNRA



One more thing to keep in mind...

This video is from 1996. Just think of what they have now.

[Kagemusha]

1. Their power projection over the sea is low.

It takes more than "a run for your money" to launch a successful invasion of a large island like oh, Taiwan. I wouldn't fret so much.

[file83]

4. Are you kidding? Their entire offensive goal set is "over the sea"

projection. Their offensive design is to attack Taiwan over the sea. They are very powerful in that respect. Don't get me wrong, the US is mighty too with some superior technology, but there is something to be said about a juggernaut like China with both technological capabilities, economic capabilities, and sheer numbers of troops.

[hogwyld]

7. Wasn't it Stalin who said

"Quantity has a quality all it's own" They have our technology, and they can overwhelm us numerically.

[Kagemusha]

23. Except with ships.

And that's a bit of a problem.

[One_Life_To_Give]

33. Might not matter, if they can control the skies

If they can manage air superiority over the straight. The few transports and screening vessels they have will be enough.

[Nederland]

37. That's a big if

I haven't seen anything that says that their fighters are superior to our's though. Anyone?

[One_Life_To_Give]

38. More a pilot skill question

My information is the SU-27 was equivalent to the F-15 in performance. Some it would come down to how well their missiles perform. If they are equivalent to the AMRAM our F-18's wouldn't do well.
Havn't heard about any carrier based versions of the F-22 yet.

[Pavulon]

44. Skill, avionics, command and control

The big picture is they have no central system like aegis that provides integration of weapon systems.

They have a tight soviet modeled air controller model.

They do not have MODERN avionics that equate to the systems in any f jet we operate.

The f-22 is well beyond anything any one uses. The f-18 super hornet is quite capable in trained hands.

The fighters are part of the system. The standard missile can reach well beyond 60 miles from a ship. The amram or any other air launched missile is only as useful as the pilot who is firing it.

It is all moot if they are blown up on the ground, ala israel in the 6 day war.

[Joe Fields]

76. Superiority? A moot point, if we go toe to toe with the Chinese.

[hogwyld]

42. Great point!

All the Chinese have to do is flood the straight with their 1000's of planes, and put every sub and ship in that 100 mile channel. With the number of container ships they use to sell us junk, it would be plenty for heavy transport, and use all of our Boeings for troop transport.

[neverforget]

60. The problem for the Chinese is that we would see that build up

and strike them first, preemptively. Ships are at their most vulnerable when docked and planes when they are on the ground.

[hogwyld]

69. What build up???

They can leave all of their planes at their home bases until zero hour, leave all of their ships at homeports until the last second. I would take the U.S. Navy months and thousands of miles to move all the ships needed to counter this. The Chinese only have to go a couple of hundred miles.

[Aristus]

58. Close. It was Lenin.

A response to skepticism about his pre-planned industrial economy.

[Kagemusha]

22. Sheer number of troops without a sheer number of ships. (Yet.)

Hey, in 20 years, sure. But they're not ready.

[hogwyld]

41. It's not like we have the monopoly

We as a nation aren't exactly brimming with troop ships either! We do most of our troop movements through the air. You only need ships for tanks and such, and China has plenty of container vessels to use for that.

[Jigarotta]

66. not ready for where?

lots of stuff happening at their back door yard. thanks to Gorge.

[dysfunctional press]

30. can those sheer numbers of troops walk on water?

wake me when they can.

[Hubert Flottz]

39. They will have you surrounded by the time you wake up.

They will ride in high and dry, inside all those containers on the ships that come into our ports without ever being inspected. And Bush's Arab buddies who will be running the ports will think it's funny!

Seriously, their number of military aged men outnumber our entire population.

[dysfunctional press]

40. not very effective troop transport.

plus- they'd have to rely on our union labour to offload their troops...i hope that they're ready to pay some big overtime.

and since i live in chicago- the troops in the cargo containers will have to get trucked in here...that's gonna take a couple days, anyway.

[hogwyld]

81. Don't need it

It's a pretty short hop to Taiwan, and they've got plenty of Boeing's and Airbuses for that. Hell, China has so many troops, they could build a human land bridge!

[davepc]

2. I think they have capabilities to be taken seriously and respected

but they're not 10' tall and don't breath fire and poop lighting.


FWIW, that video reminded me of those old soviet May Day parades in red square.

a lot of flash, little substance.

[file83]

3. True that. That video was pure propaganda - very Owellian 1984ish feel

to it. The thing that bothers me about the Chinese, is that they have the technology AND the sheer numbers. Their Military is WAY bigger in numbers than ours.

[JVS]

46. Yeah. I bet the US could make an even more impressive video...

but that doesn't do us any good in Iraq

[Pavulon]

47. Sadly

the mismanaged mess in iraq is not a true reflection of American capability.

The military's job is to fight wars, break toys, and kill people in mass. Winning hearts and minds is not war. Occupation is not war. It takes lives and is combat, but is a poor reflection of the purpose of the Military.

When it comes to that job the branches are quite capable of fighting an open war.

God help the nation on the receiving end, hopefully that will never happen.

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

50. True that!

NT

[hogwyld]

5. Just like all things shall pass

The Greeks, Romans, British, all had their days in the sun as world powers before decay, alas, it is our turn at the nadir of history. This is China's turn at the helm of the world for awhile. America, it was good while it lasted, but in the end, our arrogance became our downfall. We didn't learn the history lessons of others.

[Caution]

10. A little early for this pronouncement don't you think?

[hogwyld]

11. Not really

We have destroyed our military capabilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, Our troops, and our populace are thoroughly demoralized, and with *'s spending spree, we are at the precipice of econamic collapse. Also, don't forget, our "superior" jets don't fly too well without oil, and China's ally, Iran, is at the choke point of the spigot.

[deaniac21]

75. Econamic collapse won't bother us a bit.

[TomClash]

13. Way too early

The Chinese are becoming proficient at sea - and we are already wuite proficient in space.

Remember we are using a tiny fraction of our nonnuclear military power in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[alfredo]

51. But isn't our lack of manufacturing a serious weakness? Look at

the problems we had with Ammo in Iraq? We had to buy from foreign suppliers until our domestic supplier was able to build a new plant to handle the demand.


How many trojan horses are there in Chinese electronics being used in the US corporate world? What about the computers at the DIA or FBI?

[Pavulon]

53. We used NATO stocks

from IMI and others to cover less than 5 percent of total capacity.

The us intelligence community does not use chinese computers for secure systems.

[alfredo]

55. What about the electronics that go in the computers, or other

devices?

[Pavulon]

56. NSA

stamps their own. Other equipment is manufactured by specialized contractors(motorola, Real IBM not comunovo, etc). Any computer doing true secret work is on a private network. It cant call home..

[alfredo]

59. NSA made its own Security Enhanced Linux and has it

as a download.

http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/

[TomClash]

68. A trojan Horse at DOD

which I think is unlikely is no match for US weaponry, which includes some pretty amazing new "technology." Let just say we can eliminate the Chinese without eliminating China. And they know it.

Still, I agree China is a problem.

[peacebaby3]

32. I couldn't agree more. We are on the way down. It won't be overnight, but

we have fallen into the same trap and pattern of the other world powers, as you noted. You know back in college during Historiography class while learning the different theories, I always wanted to dismiss the circular theory because I wanted to believe that we as humans could always break the cycle, but maybe I'm just wrong. China is in the process of destroying us economically as we speak and these jerks running our country just keep adding to the deficit.

I wonder which will happen first, the fall of the US or the end of the world as we know it due to environmental catastrophe?

SO, I hope everyone has a wonderful day!!! :)

[Pavulon]

48. Umm no

China is fucked up. I have been there. Many millions live in abject poverty. Not american poverty. No medical care period, starve and die poverty.

They are a half communist undecided nation just coming into real power.

China has great potential. I enjoyed china and think they will undergo massive changes fueled by capatilisim..

[Sterling]

74. Seriously, people need to get a grip.

As bad as things get for us they will almost always be worse for China. China faces the same resource challenges we do and have the burden of a much larger population added to the mix.

It seems like some people are so excited to see the US eat shit they are looking for the next "great white hope" to put us in our place.

[hogwyld]

82. Keep living in Fantasyland

The days of U.S. hegemony are done. China is the world's new hyperpower. When's the last time our economy had 20% growth??? What happened the last time you fought the Chinese? (Korea) You didn't fare too well there...

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

54. It's not over yet.

This is not the first time the United States has been de-throned only to came back like a raging inferno ready to kickass. The Soviets prospered while America suffered the depression but who came out on top? The Japanese had us pinned down economically during the 80's they owned everything but we came back with the rocking 90's. While it does seem that we've worked ourselves into an INCREDIBLY tight spot I just can't see this being the the days that marked the beginning of the end. Right now the likelihood of a comeback is looking slimer and slimer each passing month but remeber the game isn't over until the ref blows the wistle.

You never know, perhaps another innovator like TR, or FDR, or hell even Nixon (The guy was scum but god damn did he know politics and power) might come along with a few tricks up their sleeves to save this slowly rotting nation.

[unschooler]

6. And guess who designed and built all of those airplanes?

:patriot:

Sorry 'bout that, Taiwan.

[file83]

8. Exactly. Too bad, so sad.

[davepc]

9. The Russians did...

Bunch of SU-27s and SU-30s and some home built stuff like the J-8 and J-10.

[Sherman A1]

12. China may be a threat - in 20 years or so

The Atlantic Monthly did a nice article about a year ago on China's military and following developments in the U.S. Naval Institutes's Proceedings along with Foreign Affairs I would think that their actually ability to project power is still fairly limited. Their Navy and Air Forces are a hodge podge of foreign built, designed and aging equipment (check GlobalSecurity.org for details). Yes, they could put up a spirited defense if invaded based upon sheer numbers (which is why Truman didn't want to follow Dougie's advice in the Korean War). With that said the Chinese are in a military, replacement, expansion phase of sorts, with lots of money pouring in from our purchases at Wal Mart, they have a chance to fly something beyond Mig17's and Mig19's from the 1950s and 60's, so why not? Their interests lie in Taiwan, Coastal Defense (Gotta watch that American Navy - with 10, Yes 10 Carrier Battle Groups) and I understand a Pacific Island chain called The Spratleys which is claimed jointly by the Philippines, Vietnam and China. Things needed for projection of power are a Blue Water Navy, which they really don't have and their Air Force's long range capability. A video from 1996 showing a missile firing off a destroyer really doesn't tell the whole tale.

[formercia]

14. Buying Chinese made goods:

A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with --Lenin

[deaniac21]

77. Lenin sure proved he was right on that one!

[bowens43]

16. nonsense.

The fact that a nation is powerful doesn't mean it's a threat. That's the neo-con menatlity.

[sendero]

18. China will not be a threat..

... so long as we do not attempt to interfere militarily with any of their aims. Such as owning Taiwan.

[bowens43]

15. Yep, that's the next right wing talking point.

The next bogyman under the bed. The next evil doer. The next excuse to funnel hundreds of billions more dollars into the military industrial complex....

[HornBuckler]

17. Bingo!

Albeit - it is impressive but can we fathom the nasty shit our tax dollars have bought?

You WON'T Find video of that. I'm afraid.

[JHB]

19. Thank you, Mr. Wolfowitz, for your "Team B" analysis of the Soviet Threat

OK, sorry for calling you the wolfy-name, but you're "holy crapola"-ing over a propaganda reel. Effective editing does not equate to effective force projection.


What I will agree with you on is questioning politicians of both parties what WE get from all this transfer of knowledge, technology, and manufacturing capability from ourselves to China under the guise of "free trade".

[jayfish]

20. With China I Would Be Worried About Economic Concerns...

over military ones. China's military would be routed pretty quickly by the US. Not because of the superiority of our weapons systems, which are superior BTW, but because of the superiority of our playbook. The US has a short but rich history of successful military conflict. The Chinese throughout that same period, and even longer, have a history of well, ...getting their asses kicked. You might have the most advanced military in the world but if you don't know what to do with it, it could become fodder. It's like two pro-football teams playing each other. One with Mike Ditka as coach and one helmed by the local high-school coach.


Jay

[newportdadde]

21. The amount of our debt they prop up is far scarier then their military.

[Hobarticus]

63. That, my friend, is the harbinger of our own doom...

and we gleefully borrowed the money to buy our own rope from them, to quote another poster.

[shadowknows69]

24. I won't look

because I'm pretty sure we'll get to see it someday.

[Virginia Dare]

25. Even more worrisome to me...

I don't have a link but I read in the last year in the Washington Post that the Chinese Military is spending a couple of billion on "cyber attacks". That's fucking scary.

[oc2002]

26. they can destroy our economy wt/out firing a shot.

they own our HUGE DEBTS.

if they stop buying our debts or selling off the bonds, our economies would quickly buckle as the dollar lost its value.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Well, it's a good thing I still have my Mao button.

And, the marines taught me how to say "Gung-Ho".

But, what about the Mexican/Islamic/Venezualan/Gay/Cuban bogeymen?!!?

So many threats, so little energy.

[UTUSN]

28. Better than monkey-bars that we launched a war against? n/t

[Xenotime]

29. Thier military looks better than ours.

It looks like the could take us out if the wanted.

[PublicRadioVet]

31. A question of troop quality and equipment...

China is wanting very badly to take Russia's vacated seat as The Other Great Superpower. And while they can muster a much larger number of troops than we can, where would such a force go, that would directly threaten the U.S? Japan? Taiwan? Mongolia? Simply having huge numbers of troops, or even lots of rifles to go with them, does not equal a superpower. It's all about projection capability, and unless China has magically created a fleet of hundreds of thousands of sea-able landing craft capable of moving its armies hundreds or even thousands of miles across open ocean, then those vast numbers don't mean much.

Of more concern than China's conventional force, is its nuclear force. And its economic clout in the world market.

Of course, given the rise of the Chinese middle class and the teetering of Chinese communism, methinks China might endure another internal revolution before it came after us in any significant way.

[newyawker99]

35. Hi PublicRadioVet!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[PublicRadioVet]

62. Thanks

Decided to de-lurk myself.

[Pavulon]

43. Reality check

no SLBM force, no significant nuclear arsenal. No unholy trinity. (slbm, icbm, air)
no sub force period. Run old soviet trash. Kill the crews routinely.
Minimal surface fleet capability, no blue water navy
No integrated combat control (aegis)
no STEALTH capability (critical)
No long range air strike capability
No ability to maintain air superiority
No modern airframe, fly old soviet and homegrown trash.

centralized command structure, soviet model. Like saddam in gw 1
We killed 40 thousand troops in hours with jets and bombs. Pawns and not bishops and queens.

Does this mean we should go to war with china, no.

However china is not a superpower, they do not have the military command and control or the systems to sustain a war with any large nation. EU Russia or the US.


It would be unwise to view an occupation as a war. The military is designed to break toys not occupy countries.

[hogwyld]

70. Reality check II

They have a similar system to Aegis. Stole it from us.
Their missles have similar guidance systems. remember the espionage flap at Lawrence Livermor Labs and at Sandia Labs?
They have modern, quiet diesel electric subs. Very quiet.
They don't need long range strike craft. Taiwan is an hour away.
They could probably crank out a couple of airplanes a day. Way more than we could produce.
They don't need a blue water navy, They don't want to be sailing around in the Atlantic, they only want to control their waters and Taiwan's
The Chinese are masters at asymmetrical warfare, and would probably take out our computer systems with hacker attacks. Goodbye GPS, goodbye modern communications. All of those GPS guided weapons become pretty dumb pretty fast.
Oh, and don't forget, we faced the Chinese in Korea, they pushed us to the brink, and they forced us to sue for an armistace.

[sweetheart]

71. Britain has a larger military budget

The army of vast infantry for a D-day invasion
are sitting ducks to an airforce/intel like the
US has. Without ever putting a foot near taiwan,
strategic bombing from US bases would set back that
army from 1960 rather intensely.

Nobody wants to go down that path...

[One_Life_To_Give]

72. Quoting McArthur from 1940?

The same statements were made about US strategic bombing capabilities in the Pacific pre WW2.
You have seen all the damage McArthurs B-17's did to the Japanese.

[deaniac21]

78. B-29's sir.

[hogwyld]

80. Pre WW2

It was B-17's. The B-29's didn't come until later.

[deaniac21]

84. I know my dad flew one. I was responding to the below...

You have seen all the damage McArthurs B-17's did to the Japanese.

[hogwyld]

79. It's not like the Chinese are going to be sending up a bunch

of ME-109's either. They'll send up a wall of missles that we'll be lucky to survive. And with the closest U.S. airbase at least a couple of hours away, don't you think they would see the attack coming? Ah, but you say, how about the aircraft carriers? Sitting ducks with no close support.

[Swede]

34. Here is a site with a detailed look at the Chinese military.

Lots of images.

http://www.china-defense.com/index.html

[Xenotime]

36. Impressive..

* will probably take us to war with them because he feels threatened.

[DS1]

45. Conscripts with shit for morale and food

It would be a tough fight, but we'd still fuck em up.

[paparush]

49. Nukie Nukie. Sure, a shooting war w/ China would not be pretty...

They would just call in all of our debt they've been floating and you'd see the US flopping like perch out of water.

[NewJeffCT]

57. The Chinese economy is still more fragile than ours

Their banks are worse than ours in the 1920s - prior to the Great Depression.

They have problems with rampant unemployment, including millions of recent college grads who cannot find work... and their social safety net is far weaker than even what is left of the fading US safety net (only about 1/3 of Chinese have health insurance, and even those with insurance often have to pay up front & then fight to get reimbursed, even if it is major surgery costing thousands)

Their infrastructure/power grid is in massive need of upgrading, even more so than ours... which is why China will be building a bunch of nuclear power plants in the coming decades.

The have huge pollution & environmental problems that make LA or Houston look like Gardens of Eden.

[SPKrazy]

52. Yeah, So They Got A Missile Frigate

Our navy is at this point far superior.

Although they have some new diesel submarines that are very quiet.

I hope it never comes down to war, because it won't be conventional weapons that are used.

And with nukes, we all might as well just kiss our asses good bye.

Let us hope that saner minds (than * or Cheney) prevail

[The Traveler]

61. "When it comes time to hang the West

a Capitalist will sell me the rope."

Yep. The free traders, the Norquists, the Bushes, they sold us out. Surprise.

[Hobarticus]

64. Updated: "when it comes time to hang the West...."

"I'll be charging 12% on the money I loaned them so they could buy their own rope from me."

[The Traveler]

67. How true! How true!

:rofl:

[jerry611]

65. Their whole military is geared for one and only one goal

Taiwan.

China is spending a ton of money on military defense. And they are spending it on ground forces and artilery.

Their naval fleet is very poor. Their air fleet isn't any better than the typical soviet-era planes that have been circulating the black market for years. They have nukes but the arsenal is small and they don't have ICBMs. They MIGHT be able to reach California. But not any further. We on the other hand have ICMBs that can vaporize their whole country.

The Chinese don't consider us a military threat. At least not yet. Since they are spending all their money on ground forces and short-range missiles, it looks like they want to invade Taiwan.

A war with the US would be a Naval war. They would lose that war pretty quickly. And we won't ever see a ground war between the US and China.

They can try to play economic games, but their economy is almost as dependant on us as we are on theirs. Which is the very reason we won't ever see a war between the US and China. Conflicts of economic interest is the primary cause of war on this planet (other than religion). And we do not have a conflict of interenst economically with the Chinese.

[derby378]

73. Now compare this exercise to what we saw in Iraq in 2003

No comparison whatsoever.

[B Calm]

83. Looks like a vintage war ship. I was on a Guided Missile Cruiser

back in 1969. USS ALBANY CG 10