250 miles per gallon

[ProfessorPlum]

http://www.afstrinity.com/

This is an electric hybrid car design that you have to plug in at night, so a lot of the energy for transportation would suddenly go from millions of little oil-burning internal combustion engines to power plants, burning coal, using fission, or wind/hydroelectric/solar. Mostly coal, though. So our transportation would essentially use coal instead of oil. This is kind of like finding a way to convert coal to synthetic oil to burn in our cars, except the coal is turned into electricty instead.

The bottom line is, while this probably wouldn't help the greenhouse effect all that much, it probably would help get other sulfer- and nitrogen-oxides out of our air, as modern powerplants are fairly clean (or used to be, before Bushco got involved). It would also shift our transportation economy to coal, which will last us for hundreds of years, and away from oil, which definitely will not.

I wonder how long it will be before Bechtel or Carlyle buys this company and quietly shelves the technology . . .

[MindPilot]

1. I'm curious about the batteries for these things

They obviously have to be big. So weight is a factor. How about crash-worthiness? Batteries tend to have some pretty nasty chemicals in them; would one crash that broke open the battery create a hazmat spill that pretty much negates the polluting the car didn't do while it was running?

[ContraBass Black]

4. It also takes a lot of energy and pollution to build batteries.

[lindisfarne]

45. I'll bet it's less than building a conventional engine and all the energy

it requires to run. Batteries can (and should) be recycled.

The final equation is:
How much total energy is necessary to build/run the thing, and what is the impact of the "exhaust" - either from the vehicle or from manufacture/transport of the electricity and gasoline required to run it: how much pollution is shifted from the areas where people live to the areas where electricity is manufactured (if the power plant removes polluting elements from its exhaust (as all do to some extent - some more than others).

I suspect with 250 mpg, the environmental impact of this vehicle, even taking into account all the relevant factors, is much less than even today's Toyota Prius.

[ProfessorPlum]

6. The battery bank is lithium ion, not lead/acid

I'm not sure what all kinds of ionic pastes and salts are in that kind of a battery, but it's no less safe than the ones in laptops.

Also, I'm not sure it could be any worse than having lead, sulfuric acid, and 20 gallons of petroleum all over the place as in a conventional crash. See http://www.afstrinity.com/extr-tech.html for more.

[BOHICA06]

2. I first saw this type of hybrid in 1977

at the University of Florida. Imagine a hybrid "Vega" ..... the horrors. For the young: That was a true nightmare!

Batteries are still the challenge - lead, acid, and other heavy metals

[ProfessorPlum]

7. This uses lithium batteries.

It's not clear whether it also uses a lead/acid battery for a starter, but I don't see that in the schema.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. You can about double the mileage of a Prius by plugging it in.

There are simple aftermarket add-on kits you can buy, & a whole subculture dedicated to this technology. So you can get at least 100 mpg with a Prius or similar vehicle without having to wait for the 250 mpg ones.

[slackmaster]

5. If you can tap into someone else's power supply...

...Your electric bill won't even go up.

:hide:

[pdxmom]

33. We have a full electric vehicle and the effect on my electric bill

is totally negligible.

[slackmaster]

36. You don't live in Southern California

How are the rates on electricity up your way? It's mighty expensive here, and the rates are heavily tiered to discourage use over and above the norm.

[pdxmom]

37. True...I've gotten spoiled with the low cost of electricity up here.

But it's a matter of kilowatt hours that are used, and that rise is minimal. I see the same kind of rise in my electric usage if my son comes to stay for a few days. My husband figures that it costs us about 3 cents per mile to operate that car. It has a range of about 20 miles, which works for us, since his round trip to/from work is only about 12. He can get to downtown Portland from our house, which has recharging stations, so he can charge up while he's doing whatever he does, and get back home.

It's not a perfect solution, but it really works for us.

[slackmaster]

40. Thanks - I'm considering installing photovoltaics on my roof

The feasibility of charging a hybrid car at night and running my meter backwards during the day is one factor in my contemplation.

[lectrobyte]

9. Got some links for those? I'm interested in trying that out.

[TheFarseer]

10. no kidding?

I was planning on buying a Prius (or some other hybrid) when I'm due to buy a new car in a few years. I had heard of the plug-in modification and was hoping it would be mainstream and easy to convert a car to a plug-in by that time. Do you know any sites where I can get some info? Thanks!

[lectrobyte]

25. I own a Prius, and I only seem to be able to turn up links like this

one: http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html which indicate that some folks have made the conversions, but no DIY instructions, or companies offering kits etc.

[TheFarseer]

32. try this link

http://www.edrivesystems.com/

reading the FAQ, I can't tell if you have to buy a different battery to be able to do this. yikes! that would be expensive. I wonder if it is like that for all these conversion kits?

[lectrobyte]

43. Thanks. 10 to 12K is way too rich for me, if I could do it

myself much cheaper I'd definitely go for it. I'm willing to risk voiding my warranty, assuming the design looks solid, but I can't bring myself to put $10K more into a $20K car (especially since I don't have the money) -- and I can't see why additional batteries and a charger unit should cost more than a few grand. Their system is also not out yet, which leads me to believe they may have run into snags.

[pdxmom]

34. You can check out this:

http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Main_Page

The Electric Auto Association has a lot of information available. You may also have a local chapter, where you can get a lot of info and assistance from the members.

[Orsino]

38. Not sure how you're defining "simple," but...

...I am interested. DIY costs seem to be about five grand, while the few professional installers charge twice that.

Dang it, that's a lot of money. For now, I'll have to be satisfied with "only" 55 mpg.

[MadHound]

8. This would be a great idea, but first

The country would have to switch over to renewable resources to generate the electricity, like solar and wind. There is more than enough harvestable wind energy to power our entire electrical grid, now it is just a matter of prompting both corporations and governments to make the switch over from coal, gas and nuke plants.

[ProfessorPlum]

11. Yeah, agreed

but this does ease up pressure on the short term problem of the oil crisis, if it works.

[MadHound]

13. Better solution than this exists

Biodiesel. No need for nasty lithium ion or lead acid batteries. Ninety percent less polluting than current gas powered vehicles, prolongs engine life, and is a cheap, readily available off the shelf technology that could fulfill ALL of our fuel needs.

These pie in the sky and concept cars are grand and all, and they should be developed. But rather than waiting around for some future salvation from such vehicles, why don't we start using the solution that is available now and is staring us in the face? Sure, it won't get 250/gal, but biodiesel will get us off of petroleum and allow this country to produce all its fuel dometically.

[ProfessorPlum]

15. I dig biodiesel

but I really wonder if we could produce all of the vegetable oils needed to run our cars. If it ever really caught on, you aren't going to be able to just empty the nations fryolaters for free and solve the crisis.

Crisco will be going for many $$ per can, much to John Ashcroft's dismay.

[MadHound]

18. There's a fellow in New Hampshire

Who has calculated that by using oil rich algae we can fulfill all of our fuel needs with a mere 15,000 sq miles of ponds.<http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html> To put that in perspective, 15,000 sq miles is one tenth the size of the Sonora Desert. And in fact we could put this algae in each and every one of the thousands of wastewater treatment plants across the country, which would benefit in the treatment of sewage and provide oil for fuel.


Biodiesel is the answer, at least for the foreseeable future. Cheap, easy to produce, clean and renewable. Now all we have to do is to get the ball rolling in converting over to biodiesel. First step would be to mandate by law that within ten years, each and every new vehicle manufactured is to be powered only by a diesel engine.

[ProfessorPlum]

20. Now you're talking!

sewage-powered vehicles.

That's certainly a renewable resource.

[mccoyn]

29. Hey I used to do that!

There was a summer I worked at a waste water management facility. I wasn't quite prepared for the height of the summer when I would be out at 3 AM cleaning algae off from grates that clogged every 20 minutes. In the summer I worked there we cleared tons of algae and dumped them in a field.

[BOHICA06]

16. Biodiesel is grand but ....

is there enough agricultural capacity to cover "ALL" our fuel needs?

But - I love carbon neutral fuels!

[MadHound]

19. Check out my post 18 above

A fellow in New Hampshire has worked it all out. Yes, we have plenty of agricultural capacity to cover all of our fuel needs. And we wouldn't even have to touch a foot of arable land.

[karlrschneider]

27. There was a thread with several sources here the other day

showing that the world is already in a negative food supply situation...we're eating more than we're growing. I'll see if I can dig it out.

[MadHound]

30. We wouldn't have to take up ANY arable land

This is algae we're dealing with here, grown in ponds and lakes and wastewater treatment plants(where such algae would actually be beneficial to the sewage treatment process). Not one sq foot of arable land would be required.

[karlrschneider]

41. Okay, I guess I was thinking of corn/ethanol.

...

[ProfessorPlum]

42. Kick for the evening crowd

.

[TheFarseer]

22. renewable electricity is alot easier

than renewable gasoline. We're already doing renewable electricity like wind, solar, hydro - well I don't need to tell you all that. We all know that. We just need to ramp it up so that renewable is the majority instead of the minority of our power supply, but I don't think that will be so hard with even minimal effort.

[hlthe2b]

12. WHile I'm always happy to read these reports...

I can't help but be so damned frustrated. Jimmy Carter set us on the path to these new technologies and oil independence nearly 30 years ago! And, yet, as many will see when the documentary about the electric car comes out, we have been manipulated by big oil and the Bushista types every time we've made even incremental progress. Do a google search on electric vehicles, alternative fuel vehicles, etc. It is tremendously dismaying. I would be in the market now, but there's nothing out there to buy. Nearly all are prototypes and even those close to production are pre-selling on concept speculation--just to get enough money to finish the development research and to have a chance to actually finish one for sale.

Meanwhile the $$ brokers are still backing big oil--trying to squeak out those last billions before the tap is dry. If I have to be on a waiting list for a prius, I may as well nurse my Subie outback a few more years and hope for something better. I already drive so little but losing any savings on tires. Minimally driven cars, it seems, run a risk of developing cracks through the sidewalls when parked under the hot sun at altitude ...I end up replacing my expensive Michelins well before their time-- running on excellent tread, but developing slow leaks through the sidewalls which no warranty will cover. :mad:

Bottom line to my rant: these new technology cars should not be prototypes--they should be in production. Why would anyone want dirty nasty internal combustion engines when there could have been fast, efficient clean alternatives? May the karma, so strongly earned by these asses, not come down to further harm us all...

It is too early in the morning to become so depressed....

[ProfessorPlum]

14. I hear ya

there's no excuse for us to be so far behind at this point. We should be feeding banana peels to our under-the-hood Mr. Fusions in 2006.

But any step forward is for the good. Let's keep our eyes on this company, lest they be swept under the rug as well.

[MikeDuffy]

21. Changing from a 25 mpg car to a 50 mpg car conserves TWICE as much

gas as changing from a 50 mpg car to a 100 mpg car, assuming you drive the same number of miles (which is an important issue in conserving gas -- I wonder if Prius owners tend to drive significantly further than they otherwise would, since they may believe have bought the "right" to do so when they bought their Prius -- and may therefore consume just as much gas as before.)

[ProfessorPlum]

23. I would think that miles traveled is a fairly inelastic demand

Most people don't leave their cars on all night with bricks on the accelerator when gas is cheap, you know?

Though vacation traveling is sometimes curtailed a bit when prices are very high.

[MikeDuffy]

26. Yes, sorry I realized I managed to bury my main point. which is:

If you average 15,000 miles per year, you will save 300 gallons of gas if you switch from a 25 mpg car to a 50 mpg car. If you subsequently switch from that 50 mpg car to a 100 mpg car you will only save an additional 150 gallons of gas.

I think car makers should be able to produce inexpensive (non-hybrid) cars that get in the neighborhood of 50 mpg.

[ProfessorPlum]

28. I agree with both points

But remember if you swtich from a 25 mpg car to a 100 mpg car, life is very sweet.

And I definitely think the technology is there for high mileage now, and has been surpressed. We were seeing cars in the 30 mpg range in the 80s. And now we are getting LESS? Hello?

[Orsino]

39. Yep. If only we and our Congress had cared enough...

...twenty years ago to encourage development of such systems.

[ileus]

35. My jeep wrangler around 15mpg my Accord 33mpg

I drove my wrangler 465 miles last year, I was getting around 6 months to a tank. this year I've put 43 miles so far on it.
My accord I put 400 every two weeks....steady diet of 87 gives me from 31-34mpg.

[Solo_in_MD]

17. Disagree about the pollution being about even

Its is much eaiser and affordable to clean up a small number of large powerplants and keep them that way than a huge number of smaller ones (car engines). In the long run it should be better, particularly if nuclear power come back in to play.

Batteries are an issue, even Lithium ion. Again, central support and recycling of them is the key.

[ProfessorPlum]

24. But just in terms of tonnage of CO2 put into the atmosphere

I don't think the decrease would be huge. What would you guess? A 20% reduction? I suppose that would be a very good thing, but wouldn't help us much in the long run as far as the greenhouse effect goes.

On the other hand, I see it as a great improvement over what we have now, as you do.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. Its really unquantifiable, though there are those more than willing to

make pronouncements, including myself. Clear facts are:
- Cars are not monitored except for a smog every two years, if that
- Power plants are continuously monitored
My conclusion is that better control means lower emissions in the long run. How much is anybodies guess. If we end up going heavily nuclear, the decrease could be huge. If its mostly coal, it might just break even.

All electric cars are an interest of mine. They have so much potential in many areas. Few gas stations means less spills, less vapor escaping, less hazardous cargo, less trucks on the road. There is domino effect. There are also practical problems in terms of public policy. The government is addicted to oil based transportation as a source of revenue. Roads are paid for by fuel taxes. Very efficient or elec cars means much lower funds for roads. Wash or Oregon was experimenting with monitoring cars for miles driven instead of fuel bought to address that.

[Deja Q]

44. Which is sad.

How much would it take for society to turn around, with those in control still remaining happily in control?