Class war or the race to the middle?

[Jed Dilligan]

Which do you prefer?

[Ravenseye]

1. Health Care, Minimum Wage, Respectable Foreign Policy

1) Universal Health Care
2) Raise the Minimum Wage by 10 cents a month to $15.00/hour
3) Withdrawal from Iraq and a reasoned diplomatic approach to the world rather than the strongarm approach.

[Jed Dilligan]

3. GOP will scream "class war" at #2

and wage it (vs. "illegals" and the "underclass") on #1

[Ravenseye]

6. So we scream back

Wealth trickles up. You get more people with more money and they'll probably spend all of it. Our economy will get better.

Crack down on employeers who hire illegals as opposed to building fences. Use the fence money to fund people to look at tax records and crack down on the employeers who are exploiting illegal wage earners.

It's not a class war if everyone will do better.

[Jed Dilligan]

10. Good points but I don't quite buy that...

...the people who matter in politics now won't be hurt by the policies we support. They must have a huge fiscal interest in the insane policies we currently follow. If by benefiting "everyone" you mean "all but the wealthiest 1,000 people in the country," I'm with you. But it's still class war if we have to dethrone them.

[Ravenseye]

13. yeah but it won't dethrone them

You give people more money to spend and they spend it...it'll get into the rich people's pockets one way or another. You give people health care, and businesses free up more money of their own to reinvest and hire more people. Again...better for the rich.

It's not an us or them situation. they'll be rich both ways, it's just our way the poorer people won't be destroyed by getting sick, and they'll be able to afford a slightly better life. Everyone wins.

[Jed Dilligan]

14. Good luck convincing the ultra-rich of this..

Their idea of economics is completely divorced from reality, it's a game of Monopoly.

[Ravenseye]

I know

Good thing that we're a unified majority that votes in our own interests...oh wait...fuck.

[The2ndWheel]

15. What's unreal about monopoly?

If we live in a competitive economic system, and there must be a winner and loser, monopoly is the only outcome.

Sure, we can have regulation this, and legislation that, but power always seems to find a way around that.

[Ravenseye]

17. I'll tell you what's unreal about Monopoly

It's a game where everyone is rich. While the winner might own four railroads, Broadway, Park Place, and more, and the poorest owns Baltic, Mediteranian and maybe St. James Place, everyone owns something.

A good representation would be to put people in play that dont' get 200 dollars when they pass Go. They get 10 dollars and can barely afford to pay rent on Baltic and the rest of the time circling the board waiting for their next passing of Go and 10 more dollars sleep on the streets or underneath the Boardwalk because they can't afford it at all.

Meanwhile in reality people don't lose everythign when they go bankrupt, and don't get screwed because they rolled a 4 and landed on Broadway with a hotel. It has nothing to do with a competitive realistic ecnomic system any more than Candyland does, or the Game of Life is a realistic life simulation.

[The2ndWheel]

26. I wasn't talking about the game, nt

[bryant69]

18. That's assumng a static system

The economic system is in a constant state of flux, and usually isn't a zero sum game. People compete for a piece of the pie. As much as they'd like the whole pie, there are usually a number of reasons why they can't get it all.

I also question the idea that power always seems to find a way around that. We still see a lot of competition in most areas of economic activity - obviously Wal-Mart is a problem in this regard, and there are a few others, but in most other areas there is plenty of competition.

Bryant

[The2ndWheel]

27. Isn't a pie static?

You can make bigger pies, but isn't the ratio the same? We have more billionaires around the world, but we also have more people in poverty, because we have more people in total.

I'm not saying there isn't any competition left, you're right, but a power center can wait forever for consolidation. A handful of banks are left, cable operators, phone companies, media outlets, two political parties with national pull, like you said Wal-Mart, a few giant agri-businesses. Might have some competition in the coffee mug industry though. The one sitting on the desk across the way says Alamo Rent A Car.

[AndyTiedye]

21. In MediaBlackoutLand, Noone Can Hear You Scream

[Ravenseye]

24. Unless they can isolate your audio

Then they'll replay it over and over to make you look like a crazy person.

[Bill McBlueState]

9. let them

I say let the GOP have the phrase "class war," and we can talk about fairness and equal opportunity. If we do it right, they end up looking paranoid.

[rman]

16. We say "You bet. We're just starting to fight back. Finally."

Besides, the other two also nicely fit in with class warfare.

[Ravenseye]

19. I just don't like using the term class warfare

it's a great way for them to turn our own forces against us. It sounds too Marxist.

It's not class warfare, it's about rewarding each and every American for the prosperity that each of us has earned through our blood, sweat, and tears. It's about paying every American a wage they can live on. It's about making our country better, because people who make a living wage and have health care don't tend to commit as much crime, and they have pride in themselves.

It's not class warfare to say that if you're an American and willing to work 40 hours a week you should be able to afford a roof over your head, food on your table and a doctor's visit. That's not class warfare. That's fairness.

[rman]

22. They do use/will use the term

It is the abused resisting the abuser, and the abuser resisting the resistance of the abused - which they have been doing for many decades now, and they're quite successful. That is a war of sorts.

They won't acknowledge it in public, but they don't want things to be fair.
They'll just say it is fair for them get more because they work harder.

Much of the class war is a war of words, a war of arguments, a war of framing.
Whichever terms we use, be it "class-war", "fairness" or "justice", they will turn it upside down and spin it to their advantage. We'll have to be prepared to fight this 'war' on many levels.

[bryant69]

23. Well yeah they are going to fight back no matter what we do

But which term is easier for them to corrupt - Class War or Fairness?

Class War they've had nearly 90 years to work on demonizing it (since the first red scare in the aftermath of World War I). Fairness - well Rush Limbaugh is certainly doing everything he can, but they just haven't had enough time to demonize that concept yet).

Bryant

[rman]

25. Ok

Fairness it is.

And when they say "the world isn't fair", we can say "it is as fair as we make it".

[Dunvegan]

2. Campaign for what's required to set correct the ship of state.

...a positive campaign...the negative will be clear anyway, as the issues we're for systemically expose the problems we're looking to resolve.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. Show the party as a good choice rather than "not as bad as them"

Stick to bread-and-butter issues like health care, jobs and gas prices, toss in a few special interest issues such as the prevailence of proven toxins (see this post, civil rights and alternative energy, and most importantly -- is anyone listening here? -- PRESENT A PLAN THAT SHOWS THE DEMOCRATS AS ACTUALLY BEING A POSITIVE ALTERNATIVE. Don't do the same-old moaning about how bad things are and whining "Something ought to be done about that." Come up with a realistic plan to provide health care, increase the number of jobs in this country, raise wages, lower transportation costs, etc. and sell that plan.

[bryant69]

5. We should run on a sanity.

Running on socialism (or redistributing the wealth) is a strategy for failure - the American people have been innoculated against that idea.

Rather we should run on an America that works for everybody, instead of just the wealthy. An America where everybodies rights are protected, not just a select few. An America where everybody has a shot at the good life, not just the chosen few.

Of course that's not one of your choices - rather you can vote for two carictures and one real position - kind of makes it obvious which one to pick.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Bill McBlueState]

8. yeah, sanity

Ravenseye in post 1 called for the following, which is a good list to start a discussion:

1) Universal Health Care
2) Raise the Minimum Wage by 10 cents a month to $15.00/hour
3) Withdrawal from Iraq and a reasoned diplomatic approach to the world rather than the strongarm approach.

Openly calling this "class war" or "socialism" won't fly, but presenting it as fair to all people -- "moderated capitalism" or something -- will work as a platform.

[bryant69]

11. Something like Harding's Return to Normalcy or Ikes appeal

I mean we have to reach higher than that - but Bush has been such an extremist, there is plenty of room to maneuver.

Bryant

[Ravenseye]

20. Back to Life. Back to Reality.

play the song in the background. :)

Frame the Democrats as the party of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Health Care. Freedom, Privacy and Civil Rights. A Living Wage for all those who work or want to work.

[warrens]

7. Remember Franken's reply to GOP screeching about class war

He told the story of the peasants who eventually got sick of an evil lord (I think in Turkey) and stormed the castle, roasted him alive, forced his family to eat the corpse, then tied them all to stakes and burned them alive. That is class war. This is just arguing about the fruits of our labor.

[Jed Dilligan]

12. Why does that sound so yummy right now?

;)