Southern Baptist leader says deliberate childlessness defies God's will.

[madfloridian]

Some of you here have heard me speak of this man, the leader of the Southern Baptist Seminary. I never in my life as a Southern Baptist...now recovering...saw the Baptists meddling in birth control and private lives like this.

There are pages on this from Dr. Al Mohler, here are a couple. I find this detestable. I remember him from years ago, and he was not like this. This is sad.

This is the hijacking of the Southern Baptist Church.

Reverend Al Mohler


Under-Population Worries Southern Baptist Leader

"In a Nov. 27 Chicago Tribune story about married couples choosing to remain childless, Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said he sees such a decision as violating God's will.

"I am trying to look at this from a perspective that begins with God's creation," Mohler said. "God's purpose in creation is being trumped by modern practices."

"I would argue that it ought to be falling short of the glory of God. Deliberate childlessness defies God's will," he said.

And this article by Mohler:

Can Christians Use Birth Control?

"The effective separation of sex from procreation may be one of the most important defining marks of our age--and one of the most ominous. This awareness is spreading among American evangelicals, and it threatens to set loose a firestorm.

..."Thus, in an ironic turn, American evangelicals are rethinking birth control even as a majority of the nation's Roman Catholics indicate a rejection of their Church's teaching. How should evangelicals think about the birth control question?

..."First, we must start with a rejection of the contraceptive mentality that sees pregnancy and children as impositions to be avoided rather than as gifts to be received, loved, and nurtured. This contraceptive mentality is an insidious attack upon God's glory in creation, and the Creator's gift of procreation to the married couple."

This is all making me sick. When we left our Southern Baptist church here over the war, our friends stayed. They have said that the hijacking was much deeper than just the holy war. I now believe them.

[roguevalley]

1. he's a complete fuckwit. My five dogs never 'begot' any puppies.

does that mean they fell short of the glory too? What a tragic buffoon.

[kestrel91316]

28. He is no buffoon. He, and people like him, are FASCISTS.

They have one goal: end access to birth control for ALL WOMEN. End of subject.

It's the only way they will be able to get us back into the kitchen, barefoot, pregnant, and chained to the stove. With our lips sewn shut.

[Neshanic]

2. Can someone give the Pope this guys number?

[queenbdem87]

3. I guess he talks to God on his cell phone like shrub...

[EST]

4. Childlessness, perhaps?

[liberalhistorian]

5. Please correct the mistake in the title,

you have it as deliberate childishness, instead of childlessness.

And I agree, this is pure bullshit. Although, I'm frankly not surprised to see this kind of thing coming from the Southern Baptist Church. If that's what they want in their own church, then fine, they have the right to determine their church's rules that their own members should follow. However, they do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT have the right to determine that for EVERYONE ELSE in society. Period, amen, the end.

Why is that so hard a concept for these people to grasp? Why do they have to shove their doctrines down EVERYONE'S throats and demand that EVERYONE in society follow their own beliefs? It should be enough to have their own church members following the doctrine. And, as a Christian myself, I'm really tired of this hijacking of my wonderful religion. This is not true Christian doctrine.

[madfloridian]

7. Perhaps I was thinking "childish"...fixed it, thanks.

It makes me furious.

[liberalhistorian]

13. Well, I sure do agree

that such statements are indeed childish!

[Ilsa]

20. You are very correct. I have only one concern or complaint.

There is so much near-brainwashing that goes on in churches, that I fear many will perceive themselves as failures if they cannot procreate, and believe that they must in order to be a good Christian. I takes alot of determination to defy the teaching a person receives for 18 years. I think alot of people simply decide they don't have the energy to fight it with their own research, especially if they are working two jobs to make ends meet.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind it near as much if they kept it to themselves, though, instead of trying to make everyone else conform.

[susanna]

77. The thing that bothers me about strident evangelism...

...is that Christianity is, at its core, a free will religion. Since there is no free will operating when one attempts to force others to observe the creed, it does not pass my litmus test; i.e., it is not truly Christianity. That is the only way I remain sane as my faith is distorted by well-meaning people who have so strayed from the real message.

I am also extremely private about spiritual affairs, and I think the old dictate "never talk about politics or religion" was a good one. It is actually hard for me to post to this board, believe it or not, but I have to because I am so thankful there are others out there who think like me. That, too, keeps me sane.

[liberalhistorian]

85. Reminds me of the old adage that

"a man forced to change beliefs against his will, retains his old beliefs still."

You'd think they'd have learned that by now.

[susanna]

91. Exactly.

Many will profess to believe in the old "go along to get along" mode, but belief is not from outside, it comes from within. Which is something I find hard to handle as concerns hard-core evangelists.

[peacebird]

6. what is their purpose? Turning back the clock to the mythic family of the

50's?

Back when men ruled the home and women were meek, submissive and appreciative?

Or what? Is there something more?

I don't understand.... I cringe when i hear women speaking of being "submissives" - women whose husbands make all the decisions, even when they earn as much as he.

:wtf:

[lumpy]

23. The 50s ?

I don't see where you got the idea that women were submissive during the 50s'. Not where I lived and no women I knew were submissive. Maybe the 1850s? Things changed a great deal when women got the vote in the 1920s; more independence; more women were going to college, working at satisfying jobs and held the purze strings in the 50s. That right to vote changed things for most women, opened the door for independence and acknowledgement.
Anyway, this man who wants more little Taliban children running around is off his rocker. It will be up to women to ignore those idiotic 'men of god' who want to take us back to the 19th century. I really can't see it happening.

[PublicWrath]

34. The 50s are pretty famous as a dark age for American women. You must

have been living in an exceptionally enlightened environment.

[madfloridian]

39. Oh, my God yes....Listen to my tale about Elvis.

Elvis came to our town when he was just getting started. We had led sheltered lives, never heard anything like him before. Mostly out of curiosity at this new kind of music, we wanted to go and see him. The Baptist churches here nearly had fits...the pastors called our dads and moms and said not to let us go see that evil man.

We had no dancing for a long time. Later we just danced even though they said not to do so.

It was stifling here.

[idgiehkt]

51. sounds like Betty Friedan has already been forgotten

http://www.h-net.org/~hst203/documents/friedan1.html

here's chapter one of "The Feminine Mystique". A nice journey back to Stepford-ville might refresh some memories.

[PublicWrath]

64. Thanks for that, it's been decades since I've read it. I think I'll check

it out at the library and finish it. I know a lady who is still saturated with the 50s cultural mythology. Her whole identity was invested in her marriage and she's been an absolute shipwreck in the 24 years since her divorce. Getting a man is her constant topic and though she doesn't realize it, she has a deep contempt for women as individuals. She has a regrettable habit of offering unsolicitated sympathy to women so unfortunate as to be single. It's like Dippity-Doo toxicity.

[lumpy]

75. I wasn't living in the South ,

South West or MidWest. I guess I was living in an enlightened environment, Western Washington state,
thank God, I guess. I did have issues with equal pay for the same job at that time, and I let my displeasure be known with my boss. I was a teller in a bank working alongside a man who I knew was making more for the same job. Had a discussion with the bank manager (great guy really), his explanation was that my coworker had a family to support. I had remind the man that I was a divorcee with a child to support($50.00 bucks from ex-hubby). I got a nice raise.
I had quite a few problems, here and there, with guys trying to feel me up. I had no problem telling them where to head off. Actually one of my offenders was fired from that bank for his indescretions with other women employees.
All in all I have no regrets having lived through the 50s as an adult. There was a sense of security. Of course I was concerned about women's issues and I lent my big mouth to the cause.
Yes, you are right, I was living in an enlightened environment. I always have lived on the West Coast and have been grateful that my father left Tennesee as a young man to see the world.

[Clark2008]

86. Uh - I'm from Tennessee and the problem wasn't confined here

My mother lived in Tennessee all her life, too, and had a career, first as a nursing aid then an elder-care nurse.

The problem wasn't confined to the South. It depended upon parenting - and my mother's mother happened to be the head RN of a state hospital - in Tennessee in the 50s.

[lumpy]

78. I wasn't a member of the Baptists Church,

Or any other 'fundementalist' church. Maybe that makes a diffence. I was raised an Episcopalian, abandoned it in later life from more spiritual enlightenment. I attended Seattle Schools, young women were encouraged to be independent,educated and make the most of life. Yes, from what I have heard on this forum I guess I was blessed to live in a more enlightened environment.

[treestar]

61. Women have NEVER been submissive

Never, ever, except in the imagination of certain fascists.

:party:

[madmusic]

69. An excellent book on the so called Golden Age of the 50s:

Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap

Editorial Reviews

Amazon.com
Did you ever wonder about the historical accuracy of those "traditional family values" touted in the heated arguments that insist our cultural ills can be remedied by their return? Of course, myth is rooted in fact, and certain phenomena of the 1950s generated the Ozzie and Harriet icon. The decade proved profamily--the birthrate rose dramatically; social problems that nag--gangs, drugs, violence--weren't even on the horizon. Affluence had become almost a right; the middle class was growing. "In fact," writes Coontz, "the 'traditional' family of the 1950s was a qualitatively new phenomenon. At the end of the 1940s, all the trends characterizing the rest of the twentieth century suddenly reversed themselves." This clear-eyed, bracing, and exhaustively researched study of American families and the nostalgia trap proves--beyond the shadow of a doubt--that Leave It to Beaver was not a documentary.
Gender, too, is always on Coontz's mind. In the third chapter ("My Mother Was a Saint"), she offers an analysis of the contradictions and chasms inherent in the "traditional" division of labor. She reveals, next, how rarely the family exhibited economic and emotional self-reliance, suggesting that the shift from community to nuclear family was not healthy. Coontz combines a clear prose style with bold assertions, backed up by an astonishing fleet of researched, myth-skewing facts. The 88 pages of endnotes dramatize both her commitment to and deep knowledge of the subject. Brilliant, beautifully organized, iconoclastic, and (relentlessly) informative The Way We Never Were breathes fresh air into a too often suffocatingly "hot" and agenda-sullied subject. In the penultimate chapter, for example, a crisp reframing of the myth of black-family collapse leads to a reinterpretation of the "family crisis" in general, putting it in the larger context of social, economic, and political ills.

The book began in response to the urgent questions about the family crisis posed her by nonacademic audiences. Attempting neither to defend "tradition" in the era of family collapse, nor to liberate society from its constraints, Coontz instead cuts through the kind of sentimental, ahistorical thinking that has created unrealistic expectations of the ideal family. "I show how these myths distort the diverse experiences of other groups in America," Coontz writes, "and argue that they don't even describe most white, middle-class families accurately." The bold truth of history after all is that "there is no one family form that has ever protected people from poverty or social disruption, and no traditional arrangement that provides a workable model for how we might organize family relations in the modern world."

Some of America's most precious myths are not only precarious, but down right perverted, and we would be fools to ignore Stephanie Coontz's clarion call. --Hollis Giammatteo

[murielm99]

84. My son gave me that book a few years ago.

He read it and thought I would enjoy it. Good book.

[kestrel91316]

29. The 1350s, right?

[Xeric]

8. One of the things about many religions

Is they feel the need to out-breed the competition. More babies, more members, more money in the long run.

[Maat]

45. There's one problem in their plan, though ..

the Southern Baptist kids are growing up and instantaneously leaving the church in droves the minute they hit 18 and leave the house.

It's a little problem they don't want anyone to find out about.

[DesEtoiles]

9. So if every Chinese couple had 4 or more children..

the population of China would go from 1 billion to how many billion?
Great idea!

[Flubadubya]

10. How is it these people always KNOW God's will?

This is what really chaps my ass. These goomers don't "know" God's will any more than you or I do... and that's presupposing a belief in God. Idiots! :bluebox::freak: :bluebox:

[liberalhistorian]

15. As a Christian, I can tell you that

a lot of times people think God's will is what they want it to be and not what it really is, and refuse to listen to anything that might counter that. That's the height of arrogance.

[Mythsaje]

11. Thank you for your opinion, Mr. Mohler

you rambling piece of fly-speckled canine feces. Women are nothing more than broodmares, are they? People like this nitwit make me ever so glad I'm not a Christian and have as little to do with the breed as I'm able.

[liberalhistorian]

18. Please do NOT think that all Christians

are like this idiot, I can assure you that we are NOT! We don't like it anymore than you do.

[Mythsaje]

32. Nah, just the loud ones...

along with the ones that raged across Europe, raping and pillaging the whole way, damn near did in the Celts, went to war for slaves, participated in empire building throughout the Middle East and South Asia, and tried to commit genocide on the natives here in America.

You know, the ones that seem to have set the offical policy throughout most of the past 2000 years.

Can't stand those people.

The nice, quiet Christians who don't cause any trouble who accidentally got dragged through the mud along the way...I just feel sorry for them.

edited to fix a punctuation error.

[Maat]

12. Mad ...

I've researched the Religious Hardright for years ... and Al is my spiritual nemesis! His beliefs are just awful.

But, in a perverse sort of way, these particular columns of his are my favorites. I just crack up. I saved them when they came out. I mentioned how funny they were to my mother-in-law once, and she said, "Don't you believe marriage is for procreation?" I just laughed (her son and I failed to procreate - INTENTIONALLY).

Hubby just did not want kids for years; then I became a social worker. I used to explain adoption policy to him. One day, he said, "Let's go. Let's put us on the list." Then Beloved Daughter was put in his arms (she was 2); he turned into a marshmellow. Now, she's Beloved Pampered Princess; but we still didn't fulfill the family mandate, I think. We're bad, but that's to be expected, me being the evil feminist daughter-in-law and all.

So, for some reason, these columns crack me up. I guess I believe that they are overstepping here. Word has gotten back to me that Southern Baptist kids tend to walk away from the 'faith' as soon as they turn 18 (they walk away from the extremism).

I consider myself a foe of the Religious Right's agenda; I think that the progressively-minded philosophies will win out.

(I hope I'm making a bit of sense.)

[Ilsa]

24. They walk away for a few years, then they come back all

repentent and with this devastating witness of what evil creatures they were outside of the church, and they cry and weep in front of the congregation until God forgives them and they get rebaptized because the first time "wasn't sincere". Then they go overboard and try to control the lives of everyone else who isn't interested in their dogma. I've seen it too many times before I walked away from it when I was about 23.

One friend told me how fun-loving her first husband was until his father took him aside on their wedding day and told him he had to start behaving like a husband. She finally divorced him because he was in church every night instead of with her. He finally remarried; one of those "broodmares", I think.

But I really don't have any statistics to back this up; it was just what I saw repeatedly.

[Maat]

41. What a story!

That type of fundamentalism has devastated many. A couple of friends and I formed a group for those that are spiritual and progressive; we're networking with other such groups. We will address the religious-extremist threat, via education, among other things.

(see www.circleofdivineenergy.com )

[madfloridian]

26. That's a great story. You have a great family.

I was raised in the churches here, and I do not even go near them anymore. Honestly, now I find that a few are finally catching on that someone took their church and turned it into something ugly and divisive.

One church here that my dad helped form years ago...split in half two years ago down moderate and conservative lines. It got very vicious. I was glad my parents were not here to see it, it would have broken their hearts.

[Maat]

38. Thanks for the kind words. I've read about that story (the takeover).

Mainstream Baptist (Dr. Prescott) delineates it at the Truth-to-Action website. I'm sorry that such a thing happened to your church.

Dr. Prescott is actually in Oklahoma, and he up and formed another Baptist organization.

The Ultra-right had been plotting that takeover for decades; they were patient. We will now unite to address that, however. I'm determined.

[kevinbgoode]

14. Why support this ridiculous cult?

No disrespect to christians, but frankly, I'm sick and tired of having someone else tell me that THEY alone have the answer and the "interpretation" of God and God's Plan for MY life. I'm supposed to be living in a free country, which might mean they have the freedom to tell me what they think about others, but I should certainly have the freedom to tell them they are going to hell as well.

I don't understand why people have to be bribed with some notion of everlasting life and immortality in order to practice good works and manners.

[madfloridian]

22. This is not a "cult." This church nearly owns the South, I fear.

That is why I am so upset.

[Maat]

47. You are quite correct.

In "Kingdom Coming," the new book, the author describes how this is really a political movement, and I believe it was started about three decades again when an architect of the current rightwing movement, Paul Weyrich, targeted certain churches because the hardright would wind up with a huge army of foot soldiers. The plan appears to have worked quite well.

The takeovers have been documented by "Mainstream Baptist," Dr. Bruce Prescott, on:
http://www.talk2action.org/ . Last week, on the wonderful program, "State of Belief," Dr. Gaddy (who parted ways with the hardright in his church, the Southern Baptists, amid the horrible divisiveness) had a panel, and the discussion focused on efforts by the hardrighties to take over churches such as United Methodist, United Church of Christ and other churches. Go to www.stateofbelief.com for more. It was the show of the 21st of May, available for download, that was wonderful (hit the Podcast button, I believe - I listened to it on my emachine).

If the Unitarian-Universalists, the United Church of Christ members, and the New Thought faiths compose the left end of the continuum, then the Southern Baptists now represent the hardright, along with the Assemblies of God, churches affiliated with New Life, and the Calvary Churches (out here in SoCal).

[madfloridian]

53. I listened to State of Belief last week....it was scary.

Thanks for the links. Will check them out.

[Maat]

66. I really liked the program last week.

Take care! That timeline of the SBC takeover down below is just great!

[TlalocW]

16. Speaking as a childfree person with a vasectomy

I'm glad that it's not just the Catholics that I piss off. :)

TlalocW

[Carla in Ca]

44. Same here, TlalocW

As a 'childless by choice' woman of 53, I have absolutely no regrets with the decision I made. I was called horrible names in my 20's and a few even challenged my very existence. Those were the days when it was still when, not if.
We all have to do what is right for ourselves and ignore the ignorant fools that judge us negatively. I love my life, my husband of 25 years and the dogs we have rescued, including Jean, our 5 year old Beagle in my sig line. I wouldn't change a thing.
:hi:

[TlalocW]

63. I don't know if it's changed that much

At least in certain areas, it still is "when, not if." Anyway, I was lucky enough to find a lot of other friends that were the same way, and one of them was involved in the political side of childfree and turned us on to various resources.

TlalocW

[Blue_Tires]

68. i'm childfree as well

:toast:

[Carla in Ca]

90. I love being a dog mom

Cheers back at 'cha!:toast:

[derby378]

17. ginbarn sez...

"The day that he can get pregnant, I'll start listening to him."

[NMDemDist2]

19. DH wonders which Chapter and Verse that's in

:rofl:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Initech]

25. God, these people are psychotic.

It's the "morals and values" crowd that has me more worried for the future of this country than terrorism.

[lumpy]

79. It is worrisome since GWB appears

to have politically embraced the fundy church. I watched the lengthy video on the poltical rise of the Fundementalist churches re.Bush's entrance into the fundy faith on Informatio Clearing House site. Worth listening to:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13162.htm

[karlrschneider]

27. How could it even be possible to defy the will of an omnipotent deity?

And if She HAD a "will" then humans could not. Nice paradox.
edit, got a sticky key on the KB

[ismnotwasm]

30. Ah bullshit

If that was God's plan why all the infertility clinics? Why low sperm counts? Why teratogenic miscarriages? Why do so many pregnancies end in miscarriage without the women ever knowing she was pregnant? Insensitive fucking prick. I shudder to think of a women in that church, unable to conceive, or not wanting children, listening their stupid bullshit.
From the Timothy 2;

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (Hear that? No make up Tammy. No playing dress up to go to church, and don't forget to be shamefaced)

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. (good works is a good thing)

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (Don't think so)

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (Well, well)

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (Whatever.)

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (This doesn't even make biblical sense)

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness ("Saved" in childbearing. With our lovely history of the strings of dead women without choice, bearing children until dead.)

I bet they cherry pick the bible and find convenient passages like this one to justify just about any misogyny or agenda.

[Warpy]

31. I see a meat cleaver in Rev. Mohler's future

somewhere around pregnancy #7 or #8.

Let's just hope the Mrs. is smarter than Lorena Bobbit and considers disposing of it either in a Cuisinart or down the garbage disposal before she decamps.

[Maat]

48. That's the irony.

The Mohlers only had two children; their children are now adults, I believe. So that he wouldn't look stupid, Al stated in one of the columns that it was o.k. to take steps to not have more than a few children.

[madfloridian]

33. A map of the Baptist churches in the South....other churches and areas.

Chris Bowers has this up at MyDD...

Here is the diary:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/5/26/111915/503

Follow the link for the map of Baptist churches in the South.

[lumpy]

80. Thanks for the link.

Oh boy..

[Ilsa]

35. The editors are saying the second article was originally

published in 2004. I guess with current events as they are, they felt the need to reprint it.

[madfloridian]

40. Let me check. Mohler has one up just this month about it...here it is.

I think it was just published this month, one of them. Will check.

http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2006-05-08

May 8 2006

[Golden Raisin]

36. How do you spell/pronounce "Taliban" in Southern Baptist-ese?

[Tanuki]

37. Jesus was childless

If it was good enough for Jesus, who is Al Mohler to say it is "against God's will"? Sounds sort of blasphemous to me....

[Raksha]

82. So now the true believers are raising hell

about a movie whose plotline depends on the idea that Jesus was NOT childless! That seems more than a little bit schizoid...

[Spangle]

42. RACISM.... that is really what that is all about

AS usual, doctored up and covered by the bible.

What this is coming from, is on two fronts. One, the influx of minoritys coming from other countrys. Granted, some of those minoritys are Christian. But they are CATHLIC Christians. Unlike American Cathlics who follow the Pope's rules.. except when it's..aghm.. really stupid. Some of the SPANISH countrys who practice the Cathlic faith follow the Pope a little more closelly. Actualy, they don't believe in BC and believe in having lots of kids.

The problem? Not a problem if your not a racist pig. How a person practice their faith is up to them. But if your a racist whie boy.. who is worried about keeping the numbers of WHIES as a majority... then WHITES not having babys or only having one... will not compete with the numbers of SPANISH famailys having tons. <wink>

THe other front that it's comeing from.. A Woman's place is in the home. Taking care of the familys many, many children. The Husand and children keep her busy and out of trouble. She shouldn't want anything more out of life. It's what God has called her to do.

See? 2 fronts. A person who bites this guys crap doesn't automaticly do it because of both fronts. MAY not even be 'for' both of those ideas. But enough of either one of those fronts, and you got a nice size group. HARD CORE. THen add those who might read the passages and are influenced strongly by the 'hard core.' AND you add thsoe who the issue would no longer effect (all ready had kids, can't have kids, etc.) So they wouldn't see past alot of the problems involved.

The group gets bigger. BUt the core, the REAL core..it's from those 2 fronts. The rest will get sucked into it. IF the real issues are not talked about, not explained.. before the cult mindset is spread about. Can't reach folks wants the cult has done it's brain washing.

[flaminbats]

58. terrified the 21st century might make them obsolete?

Mormons have lots of children and so do these undocumented workers who are mostly Catholic.

Worst of all, the southern Baptists can't be having huge drops in BORNAGAIN membership. Is it becoming more difficult for working, uninsured members to attend church every Sunday? Is it becoming a little tiresome for lifelong members or their children to be damned to hell for not obeying without question? Is it becoming harder to preach the message of Jesus Christ while also preaching death and destruction to Muslims, promoting capitalism and unrestrained war as nothing more than Christian values, and welfare as just another dark ploy of Satan? :evilgrin:

[Spangle]

60. LOL! I agree

I think some of them might belive it would increase their numbers. But historicaly.. hmmm.. i don't think it would hold water. Unless they can afford to keep those kids really close.

I'm afraid they are going to see a whole lot of kids with 'preachers kid' mentality. So tired of 'living it' while growing up.. that they can't wait to get away from it when grown. The KIDS see the truth. All pretty on the out side. All the acting like 'living the word', when home life isn't all to the 'book.'

[bluestateguy]

43. I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense

Does this guy realize that the Bible was written at a time when it was necessary for people to have large families for economic survival? These days the opposite is true.

I may get married someday, but I don't want to have kids unless I can financially afford to raise them and give them a good life. If anything, I'm taking the advice of Dr. Laura, who suggests that if people don't want the responsibilities of parenthood, then they should not have children.

I could say a lot more on this topic, but I'm not in the mood to go off on a soapbox right now.

[bobbieinok]

46. chronology of the RW take-over of the SoBaptists

http://www.txbc.org/2000Journals/May2000/May00chronologyofmajor.htm

Article Archive


Chronology of Major Events in the Controversy
by: Charles McLaughlin
Associate Coordinator, TBC

1967 - Seminary Doctoral student Paige Patterson and Judge Paul Pressler meet at Cafe du Monde in New Orleans and discuss a long term strategy for fundamentalist domination of the Southern Baptist Convention.

1974 - The Baptist Faith and Message Fellowship identifies inerrancy of the Bible as the issue to be used in their struggle against moderates and liberals in the SBC.

1979 - Patterson, Pressler and others run a "get out the vote" campaign in 15 states prior to the Convention, urging a defeat of 'liberalism' in the SBC.

Voters are bussed to the convention in mass numbers but leave after the vote for president.

Fundamentalist pastor Adrian Rogers is elected president.

1980 - Judge Pressler publicly announces the strategy of the fundamentalist takeover, which is to elect the SBC president a sufficient number of times to gain a fundamentalist majority on the boards and agencies of the Convention. This is to be accomplished through the president's power to make appointments. Pressler calls this, "Going for the jugular."

Fundamentalists successfully elect all presidents of the SBC from 1979 to present.

1985 - The SBC forms a "Peace Committee" to investigate the growing conflict and make recommendations for conflict resolution. Dominated by fundamentalists the committee fails to approach reconciliation. Cecil Sherman resigns from the committee in 1985, followed by Winfred Moore in 1986 because he did not feel he could participate in a "police committee."

1986 - The Home Mission Board trustees become majority fundamentalist. The trustees bar women from receiving pastoral assistance in mission churches supported by HMB.

Seminary presidents attempt peace in the "Glorietta statement" but to no avail.

1987 - The Peace Committee report is adopted, recommending that hiring practices of boards and agencies reflect "the most commonly held beliefs" in the denomination. Moderates charge that Creedalism becomes official SBC policy through this action.

The Southeastern Board of Trustees becomes majority fundamentalist. They take the Faculty out of the process for hiring new instructors, and place this power solely in hands of the president, who must use the Peace Committee document as a doctrinal guide for hiring.

President of Southeastern Seminary, Randall Lolley, resigns in protest.

HMB votes to forbid missionary appointment to persons who speak in tongues and divorced persons, unless the divorce falls within strict "Biblical guidelines."

1988 - HMB uses the Peace Committee report to enforce creedalism in hiring practices.

The SBC meeting in San Antonio passes a resolution elevating strong pastoral authority and denigrating the priesthood of all believers by a vote of 10,950 to 9,050.

Richard Land, a fundamentalist leader, becomes President of the Christian Life Commission.

The Foreign Mission Board fires moderate missionary Michael Willett after a fundamentalist missionary reports on Willett's opinions.

1989 - Fundamentalist leaders give the Christian Life Commission greater responsibility for dealing with church/state issues, in order to circumvent working with the more moderate Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs.

1990 - Southern Seminary Board of Trustees becomes majority fundamentalist. Trustees give students permission to openly tape classes.

Trustee Jerry Johnson of Colorado accuses Southern Seminary President Roy Honeycutt and many faculty of heresy.

Baptist Press editors Al Shakleford and Dan Martin are fired by the SBC Executive Committee due to their reporting on the fundamentalist takeover effort and their refusal to cease writing such stories. Associated Baptist Press is formed in order to maintain a free press for Baptist news.

Daniel Vestal calls a national level meeting of moderate Baptists in Atlanta. 3000 people show up and vow to meet again the next year. This will be the birth of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

1991 - Southeastern Seminary publishes new statement of purpose and the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy becomes official policy.

Moderate Sunday School Board President Lloyd Elder is forced to resign due to a hostile board of trustees. Fundamentalist leader Jimmy Draper becomes President of the Sunday School Board.

The Foreign Mission Board votes to defund Rushlikon Seminary in Europe because of liberal professors.

6000 Baptists in Atlanta formally organize the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

Moderates no longer offer an alternative candidate for President of the SBC.

1992 - Paige Patterson becomes President of Southeastern Seminary.

Career missionary and President of the Foreign Mission Board, Keith Parks, resigns in protest against a hostile fundamentalist board of trustees. Parks becomes missions director for the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

1993 - President of Southern Seminary, Roy Honeycutt, resigns due to a hostile fundamentalist board of trustees. Al Mohler, a leading fundamentalist, becomes President of Southern Seminary.

The SBC votes to cease giving funds to the Baptist Joint Committee for Public Affairs, because it will not cooperate with the fundamentalist agenda to restore publicly-led prayer in schools, government vouchers to attend religious schools and other right wing political/religious goals.

Fundamentalists attempt to refuse seating for messengers from the church where President Clinton has his church membership.

The Southern Baptist Convention affirms a report critical of membership in Freemasons.

Gary Leazer is fired from the Home Mission Board for explaining the meaning of that vote to Masons at a Masonic meeting.

1994 - SBC Executive Committee leaders command SBC Seminaries to cease hosting booths at Cooperative Baptist Fellowship meetings.

Moderate Professor Molly Marshall is forced to resign from Southern Seminary.

A Hostile board of fundamentalist trustees at Southwestern Seminary fire President Russell Dilday and change the locks on his office.

SBC meeting in Orlando votes to refuse CBF funds designated for Missionaries and other SBC agencies.

SBC Executive Committee requests that State Conventions cut all ties to CBF.

1995 - Diana Garland is fired as Dean of Carver School of Social work by seminary president, A1 Mohler.

FMB President Jerry Rankin sends a letter to 40,000 pastors and Women's Missionary Union Directors, urging them to pray that the National WMU would cease cooperating with the CBF.

John Jackson, then chair of the Board of Trustees for the FMB, compares the WMU's cooperation with the CBF with the acts of an adulterous woman.

1996 - Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia form into rival state convention, in protest at the moderate nature of the existing state Association (convention), which cooperates with the CBF and other moderate Baptists.

Southwestern Seminary president Ken Hemphill cancels edition of its theological journal, editor and professor Jeff B. Poole removed from teaching.

1997 - The Carver School of Social Work is cut from the curriculum at Southern Seminary and transferred to another college.

Paul Debusman, librarian at Southern for 35 years, is fired over the content of a personal letter to Tom Ellif, then the SBC President.

New Orleans seminary withdraws invitations to teach from two adjunct instructors due to their ties with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

The 1997 SBC meeting in Dallas calls for a boycott of Disney Company and related companies, because of immorality in movies and business policies friendly to homosexuals.

1998 - There has been a 70% faculty turnover at Southern Seminary since 1991. Between 1992 and 1996, 42 employees had resigned, retired or were fired and three departments experienced complete turnover or loss of faculty.

Jerry Falwell attends SBC as a messenger for the first time and identifies SBC seminaries as "fundamentalist."

Fundamentalist Baptists in Texas formed Southern Baptists of Texas, to serve as a rival state convention in protest against the Baptist General Convention of Texas.

SBC passes a new article on the family as an amendment to the Baptist Faith and Message statement of 1963. The amendment emphasizes female submission to the husband.

Paige Patterson, early leader of the fundamentalist takeover, is elected President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

1999 - Southwestern Seminary professors Alan Brehm and Dan Kent resign after the seminary requires faculty to sign off on the SBC amendment of the Baptist Faith and Message emphasizing female submission.

SBC Messengers commission a panel to re-examine the Baptist Faith and Message Statement, with a view toward revising it to reflect "unambiguous" fundamentalist language.

Midwestern Seminary trustees fire fundamentalist Mark Coppenger for "misappropriate anger."

Reorganization of SBC from 19 organizations to 12 does not result in larger budget percentages for "frontline missions." Instead the money went to the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, the seminaries and the Executive Committee.

Article adapted from the Fundamentalist Takeover in the SBC, by James, Leazer, and Shoopman. Book is available through the TBC office.
May 2000

[Maat]

52. This is an excellent summary of the takeover effort.

Over at Talk2Action ( www.talk2action.org ), Mainstream Baptist (Dr. Prescott) also talks about his experiences and offers his account of the takeover. I've read most of the material, and it seems like it is nothing short of an effort to establish a theocratic-fascist state (sort of a weird alliance, if you will).

[bobbieinok]

72. talk2action is an excellent source for monitoring dominionism

[madfloridian]

54. Thanks for that summary.

They did a good job of it. They had a plan and they went for it. Took people years to catch on.

[bobbieinok]

74. 'priesthood of all believers' was MAJOR SoBapt principle in 40s + 50s

"The SBC meeting in San Antonio passes a resolution elevating strong pastoral authority and denigrating the priesthood of all believers by a vote of 10,950 to 9,050."

This is also shocking--

"The Foreign Mission Board votes to defund Rushlikon Seminary in Europe because of liberal professors."

In the 40s and 50s in SoBapt churches it was a big deal that we supported Rushlikon; when I was in Europe for the first time in 1962, I made a special trip to see the seminary I'd heard so much about.

AND this is truly shocking to one who grew up in the SoBapt church in the 40s + 50s--

"The Peace Committee report is adopted, recommending that hiring practices of boards and agencies reflect "the most commonly held beliefs" in the denomination. Moderates charge that Creedalism becomes official SBC policy through this action."

We learned in Sunday School that, unlike the Catholics, we baptists had no creed; we heard constantly 'our only creed is the Bible.' AND in connection with the first point, we heard over and over that 'unlike the Catholics, we need no mediator (priest) between God and us--for baptists there's me, God, and the Bible; I only need God to help me understand the Bible.' (Granted, I now see there are some real problems with this view, but IMO it's greatly superior to the present southern baptist heresy.)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

49. So, I should try for a baby....Even though...

it has a really good chance of dying in utero due to my thyroid problems. And I have borderline diabetes, so should I go ahead and get pregnant so I can get full blown diabetes? Something tells me that me not having kids is not going to piss off God. And I think it's a bit selfish to have a kid right now when there are so many kids in this world already who have no one. :shrug: And the way the world is going right now...well, having a kid really isn't on the top of my list of priorities.
Duckie

[SidDithers]

50. Too bad this wasn't something really serious...

like an atheist removing crosses from a roadside memorial on his property.

Sid

[AndyTiedye]

55. They Obviously Want To Ban Birth Control, But This Goes Much Further

It seems to me he is advocating forced pregnancy and forced parenthood.

How long before we have rapists claiming they are doing "God's work"?

:grr:

[Bouncy Ball]

56. Besides everything else that has already been said

in this thread, that's got to be very hurtful to couples who CAN'T have children.

But of course buffoon assholes like this never think about that.

[IndianaGreen]

57. What's next for the Baptists? Accept the Papacy?

The convergence of orthodoxy in all the major religions is truly a disturbing development if one is a woman, or gay, or chooses to follow one's conscience.

[REP]

59. It Feels Good, Knowing that My Existemce Threatens Him

I'm nulliparous and surgically sterilized, motherfuckers! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Fox Mulder]

62. I'm going to hell then.

Because I don't ever want kids.

Oh well.

What a complete moran.

[BlooInBloo]

65. Men trying to control women. Been there. Seen that.

[leesa]

67. Nothin' but a bunch of control freaks...their way or the highway.

[Toucano]

70. They're right. Other things that defy the will of god:

Bathing.
Using an umbrella.
Wearing glasses.
Cutting your hair or shaving. (Where's Mohler's beard?)


Oh, the list just goes on and on.

[Triana]

71. The American Taliban

seeks to subjugate women to incubator status - chattel - breed sows - home, barefoot, pregnant, church, children, kitchen...

[Lorien]

73. 6.5 billion "miracles" is more than enough

there's no way that I will ever bring a child into this dying world of ours. The planet has enough resources to comfortably sustain 2 billion of us. Now we're straining the environment to near collapse.If we continue breeding as we have, then there will be 13 billion people on the planet by 2020 (by some estimates), and 26 billion by 2030...can you imagine the hell in store for each and every one of us if this comes to pass? Why would I want to subject a child to such suffering and horror?

[madfloridian]

76. The sad commentary on how a local church split.

I find this article from 2004 heartbreaking as I grew up in the churches here with many of these folks. I don't know the factors, and how the total radical nature took over...it just sort of happened. I have talked to some of the ones who left, the moderate ones, since then. They mostly joined other churches, like the Methodist.

They have been Baptists and grew up in the churches here. The takeover was very complete, according to those I talked to. They just took over and showed no mercy to those with moderate views. I have to think the pendulum will swing again, but I don't know that.

http://search.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040703/NEWS/407030327/1021/life05

"Just before the Southern Baptist Convention meeting got under way in Indianapolis last month, there was a "Conservative Resurgence Reunion" marking the 25th anniversary of the start of the movement that turned the denomination in a conservative direction. Struggles between conservatives and moderates, as the two sides identified themselves, for control of the denomination's agencies continued until about 1990, when moderates gave up the fight.

Although turmoil at the national level has subsided, skirmishes between conservatives and moderates continue in state conventions and local Southern Baptist congregations.

In Lakeland, such a dispute has resulted in a split in Lakeside Baptist Church, the only Southern Baptist church in the county that has held moderate positions on some issues. The dispute has apparently had a similar outcome at Lakeside, with conservatives within the church charting its direction."

"Retired Publix president Mark Hollis and his wife, Lynn, left Lakeside in October and joined First United Methodist Church. Hollis said he and his family were charter members of Lakeside in 1963 and had been active members there. He compared the division in the church to the one that took place at the national and state levels in the past.

"It's gone in not just a conservative but a fundamentalist direction. There's just no room for any other point of view," he said."

[mykpart]

81. My husband and I married long after

my childbearing years were over. Guess we shouldn't have been allowed to marry?

[NMMNG]

83. Funny

The people who claim to know "God's will" are the ones who want to run other peoples' lives. :eyes:

Funny how God's will is always exactly in tune with their own.

[Lars39]

87. Thanks, madfloridian.

iirc, the Southern Baptists aren't gaining as many members per year as they did in the past, so I guess this is how they plan to grow. Absolutely disgusting.
I'll be tucking this thread away as ammunition.

[haele]

88. Deliberate Childishness is against any deity's will

If you're all grown up, you should be taking care of things with minimal help from big mommy and daddy - they should only have to be there for the emergencies - because they love you and want to be the best you are capable of being, not just what they want you to be. Unless, of course, you think the big daddy in the sky is an egotistical, abusive jerk that needs to be placated all the time.

What a wanker.

Haele

[ComerPerro]

89. Breed more white Republicans!