Gender isn't a choice.

[Zhade]

(Mods: this is NOT a continuation of another argument, but a thread intent on dealing with a larger issue.)

Transgender issues are new to me, but I'm a quick learner. Today, I've been reminded of the fact that GID is a very real condition, and that those born the sex opposite their gender - two distinct, separate traits - do not receive the respect we afford even gays and lesbians.

I am bisexual (well, technically, probably pansexual, as I could date any/all genders/flavors of sexuality, given the right person - including transsexuals), and it strikes me as interesting, and disturbing, that even well-meaning liberals can unconsciously reinforce outdated and wrong assumptions about transpeople. The obvious example, expressed repeatedly in the other thread seen today, is the idea that transsexuals only become their 'preferred gender' once they've undergone surgery, or lived as that gender.

To me, this rankles my sense of respect for equality and diversity, and reminds me of someone saying I'm not really bi, but just 'uncommitted'. It also seems arbitrary - do we tell gay and lesbian children that they are not gay or lesbian until they've had sex with someone of the same gender? Do we not all agree, as most informed decent people do, that gays and lesbians are born that way, and are just as human as us?

The idea that transsexuals aren't really the gender they profess until some nebulous goal has been reached seems to be of the same mindset as "gay is a choice". It's not. Neither is being born the wrong sex. It simply is what it is, and I find it disappointing that anyone here could argue otherwise with a straight face.

Transsexuals are just as human as you or I, and just as certain of their orientation as you or I. Do you ever question your gender, or do you take it as fact that you are what you are? What would make anyone think they could know a transperson's innermost identity?

This transcends prison health care and false claims of 'elective' surgery. This speaks to the heart of acceptance - will people here and in our society continue to cling to their old ideas about transpeople, or will learning and understanding win out?

Failing to accept a transsexual's gender self-identification shows an arrogant need to define others as you need them to be (much in the way some religious folks vainly attempt to redefine my atheism for me, as if I don't know my own mind and beliefs/lack of beliefs better). I'd like to think that liberals are better than that.

Until we are, society definitely won't be.

[LeftyMom]

1. Thank you for that.

Nominated.

[Redstone]

2. Well, hell, I'll assume you're right because I don't know a damn thing

about that subject, but it does seem that you made an important statement for the people involved, so here's another recommendation.

Just because I don't have a dog in that fight doesn't mean the fight isn't important to the dogs who are in it.

If you can decipher that.

redstone

[MazeRat7]

17. Great line... spent some time in the south did ya ?

I haven't heard that saying for sometime.....

Thanks for the refresher.

MZr7

[Jigarotta]

3. there is room for everyone.

we are all the same.

[Deja Q]

4. No argument from me on that.

And I will not intermix this thread with the one you were referring to. They are separate issues.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

5. Thank you and nominated.

As I put it in the "other" thread, "hey, I'm not feeling ostracized enough today. I know! I'm going to become transgendered." It's so absurd.

It wouldn't be tolerated to bash me for being a lesbian on DU, but it's somehow okay to bash the transgendered.

[Lib Grrrrl]

25. Yep!!

ain't it the truth!

So many here on DU have NO IDEA how hurtful the comments about "Mann Coulter" or "Tranny Annie" really are. Sometimes, I have all I can do to keep from CRYING at such hurtful words coming from people who ought to have my back!

[longship]

6. Then, there are the intersexed...

... those people whose gender is indeterminate.

Are these people's gender also a "choice"?

This goes to show just how crazy some people are about some issues.

The only sensible way is to look at *all* gender issues precisely the same way. None of them are "choices". Because of that inescapable truth, the only sensible stance is that they all deserve the same Constitutional protections. There are no exceptions.

[Glorfindel]

7. I don't pretend to understand transexuality...

but that doesn't mean I don't respect transpersons as human beings, because I certainly do. I'm a gay man who never for an instant wanted to be a woman, and I know that there are many millions who don't understand me or respect me as a person. (Thank heaven for the best family in the world, or I'd never have made it to adulthood!) So, for all my transsexual brothers and sisters, here and elsewhere, for what it's worth, I love and accept you all, and I'm on your side, pre-op, post-op, or don't-want-an-op (I can imagine a case where a Lesbian attracted to straight women might be delighted to be trapped inside the body of a man; far-fetched, I know, but possible all the same.):toast: :kick: :grouphug:

[beam me up scottie]

8. Thank you, Z.

It had to be said and I'm not surprised you were the one to say it.
:hug:




Recommended.

[sendero]

9. The thread..

... was about whether the prison system should finance a gender-switch operation.

I'd have to vote no. This person is in his 50s. If he is a real bonafide transgendered person, am I to believe that they realized it that late in life?

I don't think so, this person had decades to deal with his/her gender identification issues. Waiting until s/he murders someone and expecting the prison system to deal with it is not reasonable.

[readmoreoften]

12. You make some assumptions here.

1) <<If this person is a "real bonafide transgendered person" am I to believe that that they realize it that late in life?>>

a) You don't get to decide who is "a real bonafide transgendered person." Beyond that, of course this person is REALLY TRANSGENDERED. Do you think that someone who wants a sex change operation is just a big faker?

2) <<This person had decades to deal with his/her gender issues.>>

a) it may take DECADES to deal with being transgendered in a world that discriminates agains TG people.
b) it may take DECADES to fully understand why you feel the way you do about your body when you're a TG person.
c) it may take DECADES to deal with the self-hatred you must learn to feel being treated as a man, but feeling feminine or woman-bodied, in a world that tells a male that the worst thing he can be is a man who wants to be female.

3) <<waiting until s/he murders someone and expecting the prison system to deal with it>>

a) It is insinuated that this person waited to murder so that she could get a $7000 operation paid for by the prison system? Those are pretty extreme lengths to go through to get out of a $7000 bill. I don't know the facts of the case, but I'd bet that she didn't murder her wife to get a free operation. Like all other people, sometimes transgendered people happen to be assholes, murderers, criminals, and thieves.

b) I'm okay with you denying the right to surgery to murderers, if you deny all prisoners the right to surgery and amenities that, otherwise, might cause them extreme anguish. For example, if a murderer had a 6 inch disfiguring growth coming out of his forehead, and the other prisoners humiliated him for it, and it caused him to be suicidal, if you would deny him $7000 for that to be removed, then I'm cool with you denying TG people surgery. Or taking medication for depression. Why should the state pay $7000 throughout the life of a murderer to take anti-depressants and anti-anxiety pills? Maybe women murderers should not be permitted to have maxipads or tampons. Why should they live with any dignity? They can wash a few times a day and if they stain their clothes, so be it?

Why, for that matter, are their BEAUTY PARLORS in women's prisons. GOOD GOD! Why should tax payer money go to fixing a woman murderers HAIR!

[Zhade]

19. Please don't drag that into this.

I am speaking of an entirely separate issue than the prison issue. I don't want this to become another flamewar.

"If he is a real bonafide transgendered person, am I to believe that they realized it that late in life?"

The thing is, it doesn't matter what you think. It's frankly not your concern, and if you wish to second-guess another's motives, that doesn't mean your guess is right or even applicable.

I didn't realize my sexual orientation until I was 26. Others haven't come to terms with it at twice my age. Considering the myriad of social factors and attitudes to deal with, who's to say when such a truth can or should be faced by the individual?

Bottom line is, you can't say they're not what they say they are, because you're not them.

[Dorian Gray]

59. I agree that sexual identification is a difficult

thing for many to understand, and everyone deserves dignity and rights, regardless of their birth and gender. The inmate in the prison is a very isolated case in which this would come up, and my argument there was not about denying identification of the transgendered as a female. I know that this is a serious struggle for many, and living with GID is a hardship for any person that is born with different genitalia than they identify.

My heart truly goes out to anyone who has suffered through the hate and the ignorance that being a transgendered individual seems to provoke in society. Every person deserves kindness and acceptance and love.

[Lib Grrrrl]

28. Wrong!!

Many cannot, due to financial reasons...deal with it until that late in life.
Others get married, have kids, and do their best to live a lie, because that is what everyone expects them to do...meanwhile, they hide their pain, their lives are miserable...no...there are plenty who are not able, for one reason or another, to deal with these issues until later in life.

I'd still be pre-op if not for the fact that I won an employment discrimination lawsuit (we actually settled out of court after I won on two lower levels and got appealed) I wouldn't have had the money to finance my surgery any other way.

Health insurance does not pay for it...there are no payment plans, the doctors who do it all want cash on the barrel head.

This is why I went to Thailand for my surgery...I couldn't afford it anywhere else! I paid $1000 round trip airfare, plus $3,850 for the surgery and a week in the hospital, food and anesthesia included. I then remained in Thailand a further two weeks, putting myself up in a hotel, until I got medical clearance to leave the country.

All told, my surgery cost me about $6,000 and a month off work. Thank God for FMLA!!!

I coulda had it done in Canada for about $12,000...Wisconsin for about $14,500, Oregon for about $18,000 or Los Angeles for about $25,000. There aren't many doctors who do the surgery, and waiting lines are also very long. I was listed for over a year for Thailand, and they do the surgeries day in and day out there.

I know people who have been on waiting lists five to seven years for an american doctor to do it.

[mwooldri]

43. Exactly. I think there's been 60 y/o's + who have had corrective surgery.

I can't cite any particular individuals but I remember reading about it in the past.

Certainly a very well known individual who was born with a male body is Sophie Wilson. She worked with Acorn Computer in the 1970's and 1980's - developed a version of Basic that was used in virtually every computer in UK schools, and did a lot with RISC computing - developed the ARM instruction set, which is now used in pretty much every ipod (in the processor) for starters.

But still... perhaps I can phrase it myself. Yes, I'm a white male, whose ethnicity is generally anglo-saxon and I'm "Church of England" as some might say. I was brought up in southern England in pretty much a monocultured environment - everyone tended to be white, anglo-saxon and tended to be Christian but mainly Protestant (yes there were catholics but that was less of a problem). My neighbours as a child was a single white mother (I think...) with two daughters of mixed race. As far as I was concerned, they had a dark suntan. When I went to secondary school, that was my first exposure to anyone other than 'white' in person - Geoffrey, great guy... (pity he stuck his head out of a train window... last I heard of him was that he was very very very slowly gaining some control after being in a coma for longest time, he can communicate with the outside world... but I don't know any more about him - lost touch after the longest time.) And then there was Natasha. She and Debbie picked on me big time, probably because I was the school geek.

And then I went to Scotland to go to University. Experienced a little bit of Anglophobia (some Scots hate the English just because) but not really a problem. Met my wife, moved over here, married and now here I am. But I certainly got merged into a more diverse culture here than back at home, because I was around more people of original African heritage, and people of original latin-American/Spanish heritage. But still this place is ghettoized, there's still considered a 'black neighbourhood' and a 'hispanic neighbourhood' and a 'white neighbourhood'. Yes, there are some diverse areas but there are still monoculture subdivisions.

You know what I feel at times? I feel at times guilt. Don't know why, but I do. Maybe because I'm male, white, anglo-saxon, protestant that with all I have heard with racial segregation and all the crap that we Euros have done to people that sometimes I feel nervous.

And now to add to the mix gender issues. I have enough personal issues dealing with so-called "traditional" male/female issues. To throw sexuality into it and all its combinations, as well as being born with the wrong gendered body ... a white anglo-saxon male just cannot comprehend it all.

Well... here's what I have learned. Stop trying to comprehend it, accept it and go with the flow. Some things you really do have to learn as you go along. Just because someone looks different from the way you are, dresses different, has a different skin colour, has different appendages - doesn't mean that they're any better or worse than you are. Try to emphathise. Try to understand. If you can't understand sometimes it's better off not understanding them and just going straight to acceptance. In some ways I think it's like faith - you have to accept your faith in your own way - and you have to accept the faith of others. Like with atheists, I think they're wrong but I understand and accept their position - I used to be atheist but my relationship with Jesus is one that gives me a lot of inner peace (but more on that another time). I don't understand Islam though, but I accept their faith as theirs and valid. It's like other things. Why is water wet? Do you understand why water is wet? Some people don't but they accept that water is wet.

Anyway. I've prattled on long enough. Mark.

[readmoreoften]

10. In fact, its even more complicated than that.

My partner is transgendered. Some of the "T"s in the LGBT community are not transsexual by transgendered. And gender identity can be especially complicated to parse between FTM (female to male) transsexuals and transgendered butches. For example, a "hard" butch lesbian may cultivate facial hair; use masculine, feminine, or gender neutral pronouns for him/her/hirself. Most FTMs don't have bottom surgery. Some transmen don't take any hormones or have any surgery at all: they have always looked passibly male and now have just found a language for themselves.

I have a hard time with the concept of "gender identity disorder". There have been millions of transgender-- as well as transsexual-- human beings throughout human history. There are the Hijras of Indian, the Zulu Insangoma, the Korean Mudang, and many gender variant people in myriad Native American tribes. These people are not disordered. The disorder begins when multigendered people are forced into a binary system.

My partner is a butch. There is no pronoun in the language to describe hir. When I talk to those who understand in my community and with allies, I call my partner by male pronouns. I say, "I love my boyfriend. He's the sweetest. He's so strong and smart and handsome." When I am alone in public, I call my partner "she" because I do not want to be invisible as a lesbian. To me, masculinity (or "butchness") doesn't just belong to biological males and some genetic males are femme. My partner wishes his chest was flatter, wishes he had more facial hair, and he's the strong, silent type. He has no problem with the fact that he has a vagina. He does not want to have surgery that will give him a penis. He would have rather been born with a penis. He is happy that he was raised with women and loves and adores them. He understands what its like to have a period. She can be a real dick when she gets cramps, too.

Is s/he suicidal without surgery? Not in her case, but s/he does go into depression because her body doesn't match its mental image of her ideal self. He would like to have more narrow hips and would like to have her breasts removed. He wishes she was more muscular. S/he would love to live in the world as a transgendered butch lesbian. But there is no place in the world for a person with that identity. People ask her (sometimes they yell across the street) are you a boy or a girl? Ze always answers, "yes." Sometimes this question is a call to violence. It is not an easy way to live. Her drivers license says female, the picture looks male. In post 9-11 America being trans is complicated.

His mental health is worst when he is afraid that he is going to be murdered. When he is escorted out of mens clothing stores by the police. When he is escorted out of the women's bathroom by the police.

In the end, I don't think that my partner has a disorder at all. I think that the world is pretty disordered when it comes to gender and sexuality.

[Zhade]

18. Great post!

Thanks for the insight - I agree that it's not a disorder.

[Arkansas Granny]

26. I hate to show my ignorance, but what is the difference between

transsexual and transgendered? I have heard both terms used, but have always thought them to be the same.

[Lib Grrrrl]

38. OK, Let Me Try To Ed-you-kate You On TG Lexicon 101...

Transgender is an umbrella term covering crossdressers, transsexuals (both pre-and post-op...as well as non-op) also covers intersex people, drag queens/kings...transgender literally means "across gender norms."

Transsexual, however, is a bit more specific...referring to people who believe they were born into the wrong body.

Not all transsexuals opt for the surgery, and some, though they want it, never manage to get it in their lifetimes, for various reasons.

Does this help?

I am, myself a transsexual...and I am also transgender.

[Arkansas Granny]

41. I see. I've only known one transsexual, female to male, but the

last time we talked he had not completed his surgery and we have lost touch since he moved out of state. This was several years ago, and at that time I had never heard the word transgender, so we had never had a chance to discuss it.

[KittyWampus]

27. I don't understand the intense focus on the physical body & stereotypical

images of whatever sex a person identifies with.

Your use of the term "binary system" seems to touch on my inability to grasp
the need to radically alter the physical body a person CHOOSE to enter upon incarnation. And why a person seems so desperate to fit into what amounts to a STEREOTYPE of male/female behavior and appearance.

Note- I read somewheres that a significant number of babies are born with sexual organs of both male/female. Until recently, parents usually opted for surgery ASAP to make child either-or... and often ending up making children unhappy later in life.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

32. It basically depends on the individual person.

Some transgendered people absolutely feel they must get surgery in order to feel whole. Others may be fine without altering their body at all or only going on hormones. It depends.

Gender is pretty much a sliding scale type situation. I pretty much consider myself neutral gendered. I'm very content with my female body, but I don't necessarily act male or female. Think feminine androgynous overall. I'm a lesbian, but I was once in a relationship with a femme gay female to male transgendered boi. For him, surgery isn't important, but it is very important for several people I know through him. He was content with simply taking testosterone. Couple that with his naturally very thin, boyish build and no one on the street would suspect him of having a female body under his clothes.

I definitely don't think that surgery should be performed on intersexed babies, becuase the doctors have picked the wrong organs on numerous occasions. That's a risk, I don't think should be taken.

[hlthe2b]

11. Educate... don't assume the worst of your fellow colleagues.

Why would the average non-transexual DUer know this? Where (if they have had no personal experience with transexuality)would they learn this? The newspapers and media, books, magazines.. all retain a convention of referring to the gender that an individual was born to until reassignment surgery has occurred. Someone noted that state law required them to be designated as the gender that they consider themselves to be and relate to, in terms of dress, while passports require the birth gender. Clearly there are no uniform conventions or acceptable conventions in these other contexts.

I sometimes use gender neutral language in these circumstances and where it does not sound ridiculous (e.g., the individual, the person), which I would likewise do, if referring to a unisex named individual (Bobby/Bobbie), whose gender I did not know.

But, the bottom line is that educating others on the issue will result in changes and allies to help you address the wider problem within society, bureaucracy, etc. Assuming people refer inappropriately to gender because they want to be insulting is not only wrong, IMO, but it eliminates an opportunity to educate and gain a proponent.


Edited for spelling/typos

[readmoreoften]

14. That's a good point.

Berating people who are honestly trying to understand a complicated issue is a terrible tactic. But I don't think that's what the OP is referring to. There are many people who enjoy poking fun at transsexuals. There are many people who think transsexuals are frivolous and ridiculous. These people enjoy their ignorance and have no intention of taking a fresh look at the realities of TG people.

[Zhade]

20. I completely agree.

However, it's not assuming the worst when a poster is told that the respectful thing to call a MtF is "she", only to have the poster deliberately use the term "he" immediately afterward.

That's just bigotry, and being an asshole.

But I agree with your post. I wasn't educated, and then I got some learnin', and now I'm hoping others will do the same.

[Lib Grrrrl]

31. Thank God For People Like You Who ARE Willing To Be Educated!!

God bless you!

This transsexual loves you!

[hlthe2b]

33. Yes, some want to remain ignorant....

or refuse to honor the simple requests of those they don't understand. I do think this is the exception among lib/progressives, though.

I'm reminded of my teen years--you know that bratty time when you "live" to expose the knowledge gaps of your parents.... My sister and I observed my late mother at a department store cosmetic counter side-by-side with an elegantly dressed transgendered female. Both of us realized that my mom likely did not have a clue, having grown up in a small rural town. So, while we set out to tease her when the subject came up sometime later, (and she did giggle at her naivete'), she reacted with the intense curiosity of those truly interested in learning more, but in a truly non-judgemental way. Had her questions been overheard by the woman, perhaps she would have been wrongly perceived as ignorant and bigotted. If so, that would have been so sad and mortifying for my mother, who never intentionally offended anyone in her life. She'd just never been aware-- in fact, had never heard of transexuality, but she had no problem accepting them. Just people, after all...:shrug:

[newsguyatl]

13. great post

k&r

[Warpy]

15. There's a male to female transgendered person in my

neighborhood. I smile and say hello.

I think that's all that's required. I don't begin to claim I understand it, but I doubt that's necessary. She's part of my neighborhood and deserves my acknowledgment and respect.

[Zhade]

21. Totally. I mean, they want to be treated the same as everyone else.

Your approach is welcoming, because I can tell you'd smile and say hello to everyone (well, maybe not hardcore freepers).

[Lib Grrrrl]

35. Excellent!

I am, without a doubt, the only male-to-female (M2F) in my rural neighborhood. The neighbors refer to me by my female name, they say hello and wave, and treat me like a regular person. That is all any of us transgender people really want. to be treated just like regular people.

contrary to some people's beliefs...what you see on Springer is NOT the norm for transgender people...that is the extreme.

Most of us just want to live quiet lives, as the gender we feel we ought to be, and not be harassed about it...to just live our lives like everyone else.

[JackBeck]

16. Beautiful post and nominated.

Not because of my "flag" but because your post responds to the meaning of liberalism.

[Lord Binky]

22. Great post!

I can understand why people want to change genders. If a person would rather live as what they feel they are more suited to, who can blame them? It takes a person of strong character to put up with the hardship that our oh-so-perfect society throws at transgendered people, or anyone that's "different".

I often wonder what it'd be like to be a woman, and I'm a straight man as far as I can tell. If I thought I'd be happier as a woman, there might be a new 6'4 woman in town.

[Mythsaje]

23. A friend used to use the term "fully sexual."

I always thought that it said it all.

[Lib Grrrrl]

24. Oh, Goddam, THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY TRANSGENDER HEART!!!

Finally...a non-transgender person who actually GETS IT...and sticks up for us!! Maybe there is hope!

I had my surgery in 2002, specifically, October 30, 2002, in Bangkok, Thailand, at Yanhee Hospital, performed by Dr Greechart Porsinsiririak...but I have ALWAYS been a female.

October 30, 2002 is my re-birthday...it is the day that my outside appearance was made congruent with my inner feelings. I did not "become a woman" on that day...I always was. But now my body matched what my heart, brain, and soul had always been!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

34. Congratulations!

:hug::hug::hug:

[Zhade]

54. No need to thank me, this is just part of being a decent liberal person.

I'm very happy for you! I'll bet you look as great as you feel, too! :hug:

[antigone382]

29. Rec'd

I've been thinking about gender, sex, and orientation a lot lately...It seems to me that society is WAY too focused on trying to categorize...you're either a man or a woman, either gay or straight (and maybe bi, but probably just confused, experimenting, or willing to f*ck anybody :sarcasm:). In my opinon gender, sex, and orientation are far more complex--and at the same time far more simple--than what we make them out to be. We turn them into a set number of options, one of which each individual must choose, when in reality gender, etc. is more of a continuum. I think very few people are honestly, totally one way or another; rather that we all fit somewhere within that scale...though we may choose not to express certain aspects of ourselves in order to avoid isolation and ridicule. I'd say that I'm "mostly" straight, and "mostly" female, but I don't totally conform to either of these labels, and I don't think many other people really do, either.

I don't know if that makes much sense...think of it like going to a fast food restaurant...you can get a combo meal with a cheeseburger (or taco or whatever), fries, and a coke...but maybe you want the cheeseburger with no pickles, chips, and a sundae instead? Or maybe you want the fries and the coke, but you have a powerful need for a chicken sandwich? If all of those items are available, but they don't have that specific option on the combo menu, you can still get it, and no one's going to treat you like a freak or a deviant just because you're not going with the more popular options. I know that's not a perfect comparison, because gender isn't just something you choose one day from a menu...but maybe that's the point...maybe we need to scrap the combo menu altogether, and just let people express themselves as they feel they were meant to be.

[Nevernose]

30. It's really hard for me, and probably for quite a few others here

I'm starting to feel a certain empathy with my parents and grandparents, who grew up and lived, respectively, during segregation and the Civil Rights movement, in the South.

After Junior High -- the worst place on Earth -- the fact that someone was gay never bothered me. Who you're schtupping just never bothered me. I just don't care. It's totally, completely irrelevant to my life. People have to tell me who's gay and who's not, because I am so totally clueless. At GAY BARS. It just doesn't matter.

When I meet a transgendered person, though, it really freaks me out unless I've gotten to know them. Unless I'm expecting it, like with the employee of a restaurant I frequent or the guy who lives down the street, it kind of upsets me. I don't know why. Intellectually, I realize that I'm not supposed to be like that -- I should not prejudge (almost rhymes with "prejudice" doesn't it?) anyone.

At this point, I don't think I can get over it. The best I can hope for is to actively try and go out of my way to internally say "Don't freak out, Nose, this is just another human being."

A lack of prejudice isn't supposed to be like that. For instance, I don't have to say that to myself when I meet a black person or a Muslim. But with transgendered people, I have to try really hard.

And this is where the reference to my grandparents comes in. I feel like if I can teach my child -- everytime she says "Was that a boy in a dress?" and I reply "Does it matter?" -- hopefully, she'll be able to teach her own children not to even ask that question.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. Little kids mistake me for a boy all the time.

I think it's the short hair or something. Little kids totally don't judge, so as long as you can say "does it matter?" your kids will grow up fine.

I'm pretty used to having kids refer to me as a boy and when the parent corrects them, the kid's always just like, "oh okay." Once a kid, flat out yelled (this took place at work), "Mom! That boy has pictures on his arms!" The mom got really embarassed and told him quietly, "that's a girl. She has tattoos on her arm." He just responded with the typical, "oh okay" then asked if he could touch the tattoo. I left him touch it and he got all proud and ran back to his mom.

One of my friends actually went to a lesbian wedding when she was 5. Her mom just told her any two grownups that loved each other could get married and that was good enough for my friend.

[Nevernose]

40. My kid's old enough to have learned gender roles

Gender norms are gained pretty fast, as I'm sure you know -- usually by the age of two or three. She'll probably still be freaked out by transgendered people, at least on a subconscious level, especially with the way out society operates.

Fights for true racial equality have been going on for two hundred years, and that's regardless of geographical orientation.

I guess what I've been getting at is that equal rights for the GLBT community might take generations, and actual equality might take centuries.

It's a good fight though, and, like all parents, I hope that my kid will grow up in a world better than the world I grew up in, and intend to do whatever is necessary to make that happen.

Honestly, I'm probably not going to change at this point -- if you're "supposed to be" one gender and are living as the otherr, it's going to bother me internally, regardless of what I know intellectually -- but I'll support y'all as best I can: by raising a kid who is better than I am.

This is a difficult cultural bias for some of us to get over, but hopefully won't be tomorrow.

Probably not what transgendered people want to hear, but the best I can do.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

42. I seem to confuse them up to about age 6.

I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian who dresses fairly androgynous usually. Basically, I can be "dykey" but I'm so not butch. If I try, I can do it in looks, but I can't act butch.

[Nevernose]

46. Two points:

Actually, one is a correction. I used the word "probably." She's ten, and has definitely learned her gender roles. Despite divorced parents and having been raised by her father (ah, kids, what can you do?).

And I am SO COMPLETELY LOST when you discuss the difference between "dykey" and "butch." :D

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

47. Okay, here's the difference to me...

I say that I'm kind of "dykey" (although dyke is still an offensive term to use unless you're gay or I know you really, really well) because I'm pierced, tattooed, short spikey hair, and prone with wearing a wife beater with shredded jeans and boots. Basically, most people can pick up that I'm gay. Butch is masculine though. I'm not masculine. If I want to I can dress the part (although I also look awesome in a cocktail dress), but I really can't act masculine. Especially if I see a spider. I will be squealing and standing on furniture.

[Lib Grrrrl]

39. Why?

Why does not gay bother you, but transgender does?

As a transsexual, I'm curious.

Because I am oriented asexual...that is, I have no sexual attraction to anyone or anything. Never have.

the few times I have had sex (and I have had it with members of both mainstream genders) I never enjoyed it...I only did it for the other person...I got no enjoyment or pleasure out of it...I just couldn't wait to get it over with already.

I slaute your willingness to be honest and to confront your obvious fears...but I'm still curious as to why you fear a person like me...I'd never harm you.

[Nevernose]

44. It's not fear exactly

It has something to do with the social norm. What, exactly, I don't know. For instance, I've had tatoos and body piercings -- BEFORE they were cool. The fact that those were against the social norm? Didn't bother me at all. My politics -- race, gender, sexual orientation, virtually everyting -- didn't bother me at all. It's just what I perceived as just, and what I was told was fair, and what I decided to transfer to my offspring.

I think gender roles are established at such an early age, though, and that has a lot to do with it. For instance, studies show that mothers (primate or human) have no inherent nurturing instinct and that among humans sex/gender plays no role in ability to parent. There ARE physiological differences in sexes beyond genitalia -- hormones and such do play a role -- but ultimately there is nothing truly signifacant.

Homosexuality is becoming more and more accetable; they are as much as ten percent of the population, and will become accepted as normal within a few generations.

I wrote a few more meandering paragraphs to answer your questions, but I erased them. The truth is: the best answer that I can give you is that I don't know.

Maybe I'm just one very early step on the road towards mankind's enlightenment? I hope so, and more power to you for being who and what you want to be.

[Lib Grrrrl]

50. I Just Wish I Understood WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE WERE SO AFRAID OF?!?!!?

It drives me completely nuts! Why should anyone give a crap what I have or don't have...under my pants? My body is mine to do with as I please, so long as it hurts no one else.

So why the hell does it matter?

People get their bodies surgically altered all the time...facelifts, tummy tucks, liposuction, etc, eetc, etc...but when I change MY body...to make it appear more as I feel it should appear...and how I feel more comfortable...people freak the fuck out.

I don't get it.

WHAT the hell is everyone so goddamned afraid of??

Christ, you'd think society was a bunch of 8 year old boys and I had the fucking cooties!

[renate]

51. I don't know whether it's necessarily anything people are AFRAID of

Well, out in the rest of the world, fear probably does come into it. But around here, I doubt it.

It's more a question of what we're used to. I'm thinking of my daughter as an example. At her young age, she has no clue that my lesbian sister's marriage (to a woman) wasn't exactly as valid in the eyes of the world as any heterosexuals' marriage, or that their divorce wasn't just as much a divorce. To say that she has no issues with non-mainstream sexuality sort of implies that there were ever any issues for her to get over--there weren't.

However, a couple of years ago she met a friend of my mom's who had recently had the male-to-female surgery and hormone treatment, but she didn't know the woman's history... and she was very uncomfortable. Believe me, she has no prejudices about anybody's sexuality (besides, she's too young to get much beyond the idea that women can marry women, men can marry men, and women can marry men) (and has never heard about the difference between sex and gender), but the unclear gender of this woman really threw her for a loop. (This may have had to do with the fact that the surgery was very recent and the woman hadn't really grown into a complete ease with her body yet... I also definitely noticed a certain tiny something different about the way she carried herself, whereas I assume that with time that awkwardness goes away.)

I guess that most of us humans' first instinct is to feel more comfortable interacting with people we can readily classify--of course that's our problem, not anybody else's, but I think that's probably the cause of what seems to be fear but is often just the wheels of our mind turning as we try to figure out whether to interact with a person as a woman or as a man (and most of us do interact a little bit differently, however silly that is).

[Lib Grrrrl]

52. Elementary, My Dear Watson....

(snip)"...but is often just the wheels of our mind turning as we try to figure out whether to interact with a person as a woman or as a man..."(/snip)

You interact with them in the gender role they obviously wish to be interacted with AS A MEMBER OF.

Who gives a crap if they might be a bit unpracticed, a bit awkward...whatever you want to call it. If the person obviously desires to be interacted with as a woman, then, out of respect to that person, that is how you should interact with them. How freaking difficult is that?

[renate]

55. Well, obviously that's what I did

Or maybe not obviously, since I didn't say so. I'm sorry--my goof. I grew up around all kinds of people with all kinds of appearances and mannerisms so I learned at my parents' knees to respond to people as they want to be responded to, and it indeed is exactly as basic as you say.

But I was talking about my daughter, who doesn't have a judgmental bone in her body. She simply had never seen anybody who dressed and looked (kind of) like a woman but spoke and carried herself like a man. It just plain confused her.

I think most people are as good-hearted and as eager to do the right thing as my daughter is, but they tend to overthink it. Sure, it seems pretty clear that if somebody has taken the trouble to have surgery to become a man or a woman, that's who they are and how they want to be treated... but evidently it's not so clear to everybody. I don't know why, but I'm sure people in wheelchairs, for example, could swap stories with you about people who try to do the right thing but end up overcompensating and maybe even being rude, though not necessarily on purpose.

There's no question that people who don't fit into a mold have to deal with some pretty annoying and ignorant behavior from the general public--and to a lesser extent that probably goes for people with tattoos or mohawks or whatever, too. I think most people try to do the right thing--but like anybody else, transgendered or tattooed or mohawked or not, we just fail sometimes.

[Lib Grrrrl]

57. I Think You Are Too Kind And Too Trusting

I DON'T think most people try to do the right thing...I think most people are CONSCIOUSLY assholes to people who are different.
Maybe this is because I've a lifetime of experience being treated like garbage by assholes. It probably even becomes somewhat a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I guess I just EXPECT to be treated like shit, because that is the way I have grown accustomed to being treated.
Sad, isn't it?

I wish I could be like you and see the good, rather than see the evil. It's just that the evil is always so easy to see...and the good isn't.

I recall one time, in an electronics store, when a young man in a wheelchair was shopping with (I assume) his mother (they looked related, and the age difference suggested mother/son relationship.) Anyway, the mother was pushing her son's wheelchair. I happened to be near them in the same aisle, looking at some gadgetry, when an employee of the store, who went 450 pounds if she went an ounce...she struggled to get past the pair with the wheelchair, and grumbled, under her breath..."I hate people in wheelchairs!"
Obviously, this woman was pissed off that the wheelchair was taking up enough of the aisle to make it difficult to get her full figure around it. Only problem was, I heard the comment. so I turned on her and said, "you better not hate people in wheelchairs, because, if you gain much more weight, you heifer, you'll end up in a wheelchair yourself!"
Totally a cruel comment for me to make, I know, but...this woman had made the first cruel comment, and it really annoyed me. Later, when I was checking out, I reported the incident to management. And on the way out, the wheelchair couple stopped by me long enough to say thanks.

Fact is...I see a lot of people being consciously cruel to others, because they inconvenience them in some way, or because they are in some way fearful of the unknown, or who knows what motivations they may have. Again, too, maybe it's just that I notice the evil more often than I notice the good.

[troubleinwinter]

58. Hallelujah.

I am glad we live in an age where some people can be as they please. At least we aren't all stuck in corsets & hoop skirts.

I am joyful when I see people living as they choose. Transsexual, transgendered, gay, lesbian or whatever, because I see it as NATURAL to them (as straight is natural to me).

I am a straight old lady, but enjoy the company of gays, lesbians and trans... and cannot understand why people feel "uncomfortable". People are people.

Why does anybody give a crap, as you say, Lib Grrl! We don't want the fundies peeping into our bedrooms to see if we are committing fellatio or cunnilingus or anal sex in our beds... ain't nobody's bidness but our own. Why should we care about what is inside another person's pants or under the skirts?

I just HATE HATE HATE this bigotry! If I dye my hair brown from blond, I don't expect everybody to second guess it. It's MY OWN DAMNED business. Would you shun me for a hair color that you "don't understand and can't quite accept" Get the fuck over it and talk to me as the PERSON I am. Gender or sexual preference is not for others to judge. It belongs to the self.

Some of the most fun times I've had were partying with lesbians. Why? Because they just happened to be fun INDIVIDUALS. I don't give a shit if people are gay or lesbian or trans. If they are able to be as they need to be, live as is proper to them and are satisfied, I take joy in it. People are as they are.... people.

Yes, some of my friends are amazed that I have no "fear" of being with lesbians. WHATTHEFUCK? I dunno what they fear. I honestly do not.

Would we sit here and say, "Well, I'm not sure... I just feel uneasy talking to a person of another color...."? No, we would be shocked if someone said it. I am shocked that there is any issue here to even be talked about in a 'liberal', 'progressive' group like this.

I suppose this thread is good. I hope some can get over their bigotry and start appreciating and celebrating and supporting diversity.

[Bluebear]

36. Anybody would be luck to date you.

When's good? :)

[ConsAreLiars]

45. Thanks for starting such an enlightened discussion. One of my kids

has gone through gender reassignment and will soon be married to his long term love. Brilliant, compassionate, competent, well-adjusted, widely respected, admirable people, both of them. It is really no more complex than having a body type that presents to others the "who I am" accurately. One simple example, my older son's credit card, still with a female name, was used to pay a restaurant bill. After a moment of confusion, double-checking the name on the card, the waiter handed the card "back" to his partner. A small thing, but an affirmation of their self identities. "I am he and she is she and we are all together." We all want to be seen and treated accordiing to "who we are." Gender identification is just one example.

[undergroundpanther]

48. painful

Being trans is painful.Why?

Every time I put on clothes I see the wrong body,I feel wrong.I feel stressed.
Every time I look in the mirror a mask that is not me peers back.
Every time I relate to a person I am seen as 2 boobs. She. Boobs.
Guys hoot like I am female I cringe because I am not female!
Guys feel threatened because I do not act like a woman,I do not give those subtle social cues women give.
I spread out I take up space.

If my boobs are not visible,I often will get called sir.
With Sir,I get treated in a way that feels normal to me.
And for just a moment, I can pretend I am not in the wrong body.
Until I get home and pull off my shirt and they are hanging there.The cow bits.And I just want to die.

[Lib Grrrrl]

49. I Feel Ya

But I'm the other way. For me, the pain was taking off the pants, and seeing an unwanted appendage.

Jeez, I often wished they could do like they did in that one Star Trek episode, where Janice Lester traded bodies with Captain Kirk. You know...just put my brain in your body, and yours in mine...we'd both be happy, normal looking, and fully functional - and fertile...in the gender we felt we belonged in!

Hell, if the Janice Lester thing had happened to me, I'd have run down to engineering as fast as my beautiful legs would carry me, and tell Scotty...ok, beam me halfway across the Galaxy, and don't tell the bitch where I've gone...sucker!! The bod's mine, now!!

ROFL!!

[Sugar Smack]

53. I think that you are a beautiful person through and through,

undergroundpanther. :hug: :pals: :yourock:

[bleedingheart]

56. I think that the environment you are raised in makes a difference

in how you treat others...no matter what sexuality, shape, race..etc

I was raised by a widowed mother who was fairly open minded. She respected people but had her "issues"....she was raised by european parents who were fearful of the "different" people and hell most of her childhood was spent with only people of her ethnic background here in the US. She didn't even speak english until she went to first grade ...and was born here.

The people I was raised around were homophobic, racist and yet they were all FDR Democrats, and Union organizers...amazing ain't it...

So when my one cousin "came out"...everyone accepted it and the homophobia is dying away. In fact 4 years ago he and his partner were joined in a civil union with much family in attendance.

When another cousin married a black man...no one disowned her...she was accepted and the racism is dying away...

When my own brother finally came out of the closet (after two suicide attempts)...it was a relief to finally see him happy.

Everyone in the family is accepting. Are all of them happy? No and not for the reasons you might think. The unhappiness stems from the fact that we know that being gay or being different in any way makes our beloved family members targets. I have often worried that my brother won't get beat up by someone just because he is gay...and that would break my mother's heart.

With regard to transsexual/transgendered folks, I am accepting and happy that they are being true to their self.

I have been lucky to have a family that has adapted, but many folks haven't been so lucky. I know a woman who just died having not spoken to her sister in over 20 years because her sister married a black man...what does that say? Meanwhile the bigoted sister went to church every day...there are folks that will not let a gay family member in the house because they staunchly believe that gayness spreads like a disease...it is really frightening how people can cling to misconceptions.

[anewdeal]

60. I'll never judge

I'll never judge what someone does to their own body ... it is their absolute right. BUT (Huge butt) I will not give someone money for them to try and surgically solve their own issues. If you're born with the wrong body, then that is your cross to bear, the same as it is for everybody. I wish I had a face that looked more like Brad Pitt's and a body like the Rock, but I don't. If I want one, it is entirely my responsibility to get one. No one else's.

[Zhade]

61. Thankfully, no one's asking you to give them money.

Your lack of judgement is enough!

[johnaries]

62. Many, many years ago when I was young and naive,

I had a co-worker that I felt very close to and respected greatly. One day just out of curiosity I asked him why he decided to be Gay. I will never forget his answer.

He said "John, when I came out my entire family disowned me and I lost every friend I ever had. If I had a choice, I would never have chosen to be Gay."

Now, whenever someone mentions that they think being gay is a choice, I ask them "when did you CHOOSE to be straight?"

[NMMNG]

63. Excellent post Zhade

I dream of a day when people don't judge others based on their sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion or whatever. I doubt I'll see that day, but I dream of it nonetheless.

[NuttyFluffers]

64. thank you, a beautiful and much needed post.

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

65. Beautiful

Thank you.