Here is a poll that absolutely BEGS to be DUed!!!

[MnFats]

http://www.ird-renew.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=368795


The Institute for Religion and Democracy, a right-wing religious zealot outfit, asks if it was appropriate for a United Methodist Church official to call for Bush's impeachment!!!

Come on DU!!!! Go DU!!

[wryter2000]

1. Kick

I didn't see results. Was I supposed to?

[MnFats]

5. yes. have another look n/t

[Oceansaway]

2. done...n/t

[Nimrod2005]

3. Kick....Needs our help folks...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

4. Done. nt

[saltpoint]

6. Done. right now Winkler is getting whomped, by almost 2/3rds.

Round up a posse and ride out to rescue this guy!

[azmouse]

7. done

Poll
United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment. 34.1%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it. 3.3%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment. 62.6%

[buff2]

8. Done!

Must not be that many voting........62% thinks bu$hitler shouldn't be impeached? That is unreal. Paid hacks working that poll I would imagine. :puke:

[BlooInBloo]

9. Ack - I don't mean to be traitorous, but...

... I thought we were all up in arms when republican church people advocated on matters political - was I just dreaming?

Unless there's something I'm not understanding, I'm inclined to select the impeach-good-church-dude-sayin-it-bad option.

Am I missing something? Or is this like the faith-based-truthout business, where we adhere to certain principles only when it's in our (short-term) interest to do so?

[Vincardog]

26. There is a little difference between influencing an election and

stating a legal face. It immoral to call for the end of the chimp's murderous ways.

[BlooInBloo]

71. Ok - DUers really don't have any principles...

... except when convenient...

"Situational principles" they could be called, perhaps.

"Princples for THEE, not for ME" as an alternative.

Thanks for clarifying!

[Vincardog]

73. Do ya always think in Black/White all/Nothing terms? Do you not see any

difference between preaching against a murderous thug or advocating for a candidate?

BTW you can no more judge all of DU by my comments that I can judge all of anything by your comments.

[BlooInBloo]

74. I see a principle of separation between church and state....

... which DUers were more than happy to defend when the republicans were using churches for advocacy.

And now that someone on OUR side is doing the same, the principle can, well, go straight to hell, as far as DUers seem to be concerned.

I love y'all, and I would love to see gw impeached as much as any, but I think it's awful, and hypocritical, for DUers to endorse the same behavior that they browbeat republicans for.

[Vincardog]

77. Would you feel better it the preacher said gwB will go to hell?

Separation of Church and state is to protect the state from the church. Do you not see any difference between a moral stand that the evil murderous preznit be removed and the political action to ELECT him?

[BlooInBloo]

78. Just lemme get it straight - when republicans do it, it's WRONG...

... but when we do it, it's RIGHT.

I believe that one of the conditions of the tax-exempt status of churches is that they not act as political advocates. I believe there is good reason for this. I believe that when republican sympathizing churches do it, it's wrong. I believe that when Democratic-sympathizing churches do it, it's wrong.

I would prefer not to have churches at all - lolol - but by god, if we're gonna have 'em, KEEP THEM THE FUCK OUT OF POLITICS. The entire subject called "history" is little more than a tract on how bad it is for churches and politics to hook-up.

For me, the import of the principle is based on real-world practicality, and its effects, while longer-term and longer in developing, far, far outweigh the shorter term effects of a murderous jackass in the White House.

If we give up our principles, what's left to protect? We then become Hobbesian creatures, for whom "life is nasty, brutish, and short".

America is a collection of (evolving, but with some stability) PRINCIPLES. Believers in America BY DEFINITION seek to defend those principles - not tear them down.

[Vincardog]

79. And? Expressing a moral judgment, outside of election politics is

equal to advocation for a party and candidate during a an election cycle?
You are outraged at an invalid comparison. You over generalize and reach invalid conclusions.

Do you see any difference?

If not ignore is your friend.

[BlooInBloo]

86. Rationalizing hypocrisy. We really are no better than republicans.

[DTinAZ]

90. you *are* missing something

There shouldn't be a global prohibition against all "church people" expressing their opinions on political matters. The line gets crossed when it comes from the pulpit in worship services, or from the pastor of a church to his/her "flock" in a church newsletter. This was a speech made by an officer of an administrative wing of the denomination that's specifically involved in issue advocacy ("lobbying" if you will), made at an ecumenical gathering. In other words, he wasn't telling all Methodists that they should impeach Il Dunce...he was expressing that as part of a solution to ending war, and expressing it to other church leaders.

Would you have wanted Dietrich Bonhoeffer to remain quiet about Hitler?

DT

[peacebird]

10. needs some more help DU!

[Grebrook]

11. 55% no, damn, keep working people

[Immad2]

12. Done and current results... needs DU help!

United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
38.9%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
4.4%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
56.7%

[zippy890]

13. 41.9% no

[pnorman]

14. For the record, I voted NO.

"President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it." That's consistent with my beliefs concerning separation between Church and State(Unless they're ready to waive their tax-exempt status).

But if that's a "right-wing religious zealot outfit", these are some startling figures:

Poll
United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?
No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
28.5%
President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
2.4%
Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
69.1%

The firmest of Dubya's bases, the Theocratic one, is brginning to crumble. Praise God/YWVH, Allah!!

pnorman

[MnFats]

24. Look around that site a bit. there's troubling stuff there...

...especially their "watch" efforts on politically incorrect churches, such as the episcopalians, the methodists and the presbyterians. they want to "renew" these churches in THEIR mold.
...there's also other disturbing stuff that indicates they want a theocracy...

[DTinAZ]

45. evangelicals in mainline clothing

I know a lot about this outfit....they're funded by Richard Mellon Scaife, the guy who funded the Whitewater Investigation, Ken Starr, and a lot of other evil crap! The head of their Methodist attack wing is former CIA. They go way back...they supported Ollie North's activities, for example.

DT

[otherlander]

59. Done. 63.4% No, call for impeachment is right.

[pnorman]

68. I'm DELIGHTED beyond measure that such people voted that way,

but I'll stick to my previously stated opinion.

pnorman

[texastoast]

15. Voted for inappropriate

I think the minister could call for Bush's impeachment, as a citizen, but not as someone preaching from the pulpit of a tax-exempt organization.

I'll turn in the Baptists for doing telling their congregation to vote for Bush, and I would be a hypocrite for not turning in a different denomination for politicking from the pulpit, even though I happen to agree with their stance.

[acmavm]

16. I don't care who calls for impeachment. They're all right.

United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
46%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
5.5%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
48.5%

[FtWayneBlue]

17. done.

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
46%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
5.5%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
48.5%

It looks like 51.5% of respondents agree - Bush should be impeached.

[hwmnbn]

18. It's neck & neck .......

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
46.9%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
5.4%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
47.7%

[movonne]

19. done

[me b zola]

20. I voted 'no'

results right now are going back and forth between yes & no. Go get 'em, DUers!

[proud patriot]

21. glad to help, one woman one vote

[Cha]

22. WE're a wee

bit ahead at this point!

And you're so right..It is just begging to be DUed!

[cry baby]

23. 48% no, he is right to bring up impeachment! nt

[Booster]

25. Done and a little kick.

[DesertRat]

27. Done. Copy and paste the url into your browser

so they don't know how many responses came from DU. I do this with all polls. :evilgrin:

[FreeStateDemocrat]

28. 49,8% he was right to ask for the impeachment ot the bastard.

[longship]

29. Good show. Let's keep it up.

52.8% - No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
6.2% - President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
41% - Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.

That's 59% voting for impeachment!!
:woohoo:

At 4:17 PM PDT

:kick:ed

[cmd]

30. done. Glad to help. n/t

[teamster633]

31. done

United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
53.8%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
6%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
40.1%

[rhino47]

32. Done

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
54.2%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
6.5%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
39.3%

[IntravenousDemilo]

33. I chose the middle one.

Yes Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it. Separation of church and state, and all that.

[DTinAZ]

52. Not me...answer #1 is just fine!

It's not that black and white. Preachers in pulpits, on the local level, are the ones who shouldn't be partisans, but this guy is the head of the United Methodist General Board of Church and Society, and he was at an ecumenical gathering, speaking the truth. He didn't preach this in a church, and he didn't publish this in a denomination newsletter.

DT

[stevedeshazer]

34. No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.

Now 55.5%!

[biscotti]

35. Done

[Barad Simith]

36. 57.1%

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment ... 57.1%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it ... 6.8%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment ... 36.1%

[YankeyMCC]

37. I think perhaps it was inappropriate

I think it's fine for religious leaders to state their political positions and even talk to others in their religious community about it.

What I object to is the use of their position to dictate to their religious community how those individuals must act or vote.

For example taking a position that someone who votes for women's rights is not allowed communion. Or in this case calling Bush's impeachment a "a religious imperative" - no it's not a religious imperative it's a legal (and perhaps moral imperative but in this nation it's the legal aspect that's important when discussing impeachment) and members of his church have a right to be free of this sort of religious and emotional blackmail.

If he wants to discuss the immorality of the war based on their shared religious principals that's fine and good IMO but to dictate a political position or action is completely inappropriate - at least in this nation and any nation where people are supposed to be free and equal under the law no matter their religion or lack of religion.

I never read the actual statement so I don't know if it crossed the line and therefore I didn't vote in the poll but if it was indeed phrased as a "a religious imperative" for the people of his church then it was inappropriate.

[DTinAZ]

49. it wasn't a published statement

This is in response to a speech made at the Ecumenical Advocacy Days, and reported on in the American Spectator by Mark Tooley, the head of the wing of the IRD dedicated to pushing the Methodist Church *way* to the religious right. He's former CIA, and has been sending his minions (spys) to various Methodist functions for years, lest anyone say anything that vaguely reflects the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

DT

[SPKrazy]

38. Bush Should Be Impeached But It Is Wrong For A Church Official To Say It

what's good for the goose is good for the gander

I raise hell about RW preachers telling their flocks who to vote for and making political statements from the pulpit.

Now the same has to be true for our side.

He needs to go, (Bush) but Methodist Church should not be asking for it to happen and maintain their tax exempt status anymore than any RW Church or figure should be pushing for impeachment of Clinton or whatever.

[DTinAZ]

48. He's not in the pulpit

This is different...he's the General Secretary of the UMC General Board of Church and Society. He's not speaking to a congregation. He heads an organization that deals with the wrongs of our society, and if the * administration isn't at the top of the list of what's wrong with our society, I don't know what is!

DT

[Mr_Spock]

39. dune

[dalaigh lllama]

40. Done 66% say impeach the bastard

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
58.7%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
7.3%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
34.1%

[Iowa]

41. Done.... 60.3% say no, he was right to call for impeachment.

[toandme]

42. Done!

[cynthia]

43. done!

60.4% voted No, it is not inappropriate to call for impeachment!

:kick:

[diamondsndust]

44. Done....

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
60.8%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
8.1%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
31%

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. NO....61% 8.1% Winkler was right , but inappropriate ... 30.9% wrong

United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?
No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
61%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
8.1%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
30.9%

[Catchawave]

47. 61% support !

[guinivere]

50. done

[DTinAZ]

51. I've got an anti-IRD website of my own...

...my site is:

http://umaction.org

The Methodist wing of the Institute for Religion and Democracy (whose poll we're DUing), is named "UM Action," and they abandoned "umaction.org" years ago, so I formed "United Methodists Affirming Christ's Teachings in our Nation" (UMACTION) and put up a site.

DT

[LaPera]

53. Looks like Bush's poll numbers 63% disapprove 29% approve 8% undecided

But actual numbers for this particular poll(so far)...

62.1% No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.-

29.7% Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.-

8.2% President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say -

[DTinAZ]

54. related links from the UM GBCS website

Timeline of GBCS Responses to the War in Iraq:

http://www.umc-gbcs.org/timeline

Global Security: Alternatives to the War on Terror

A speech at Ecumenical Advocacy Days, Arlington, VA
Jim Winkler, GBCS General Secretary

Keynote Address delivered by Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist General Board of Church & Society at the Global Security Track of Ecumenical Advocacy Days
March 11, 2006, Arlington, VA

http://www.umc-gbcs.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=fsJNK0PKJrH&b=969371&content_id=%7B15ABC01D-752D-4FB1-98FF-6B09A2744850%7D¬oc=1

(scroll down to "alternative" #7 -- this is what the IRD is bitching about)

DT

[madmusic]

55. Separation of Church and State isn't getting much respect n/t

[DTinAZ]

91. bzzzzzzt...wrong....thanks for playing

Would you have wanted Dietrich Bonhoeffer to remain quiet about Hitler? Don't think in such black and white terms. Separation of church and state is not absolute...there are, however, specific lines that should not be crossed, and Winkler most certainly did NOT cross one.

DT

[yellerpup]

56. Latest...

United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?
No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
63.1%
President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
8%
Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
28.9%

[Cameron27]

57. No ---- 63.2%

Winkler wrong 28.9%

[Jeffersons Ghost]

58. I was thinking another dumb poll, even if the headline is intreuging...

but the poll was as irresistable as the headline. here's the tally:
63.6%
President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
7.8%
Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
28.6%

[Vidar]

60. done

[Faryn Balyncd]

61. done

thanks

[upi402]

62. WOW! 63.7% say impeach *

[Hekate]

63. Link doesn't work for me: I get "system cannot find the file specified"

But good luck to all the rest of you!

Hekate

[upi402]

65. It works for me, must be a cookies thing

:shrug:

[Erika]

64. done n/t

[Pastiche423]

66. Voted

64.3% voted NO Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.

[RagingInMiami]

67. You nailed it

"Just begs to be DUed."

I did my part.


United Methodist Church chief lobbyist Jim Winkler has advocated the impeachment of President Bush, denouncing the "war ON terror" as the "war OF terror" and has called Bush's removal a religious imperative. Are such actions by a church official inappropriate, given they do not reflect a stated position of the United Methodist Church?


No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
64.4%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
8%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
27.6%

[RebelOne]

69. 64.8% Winkler is right.

[NMMNG]

70. Done.

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
65%

President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
7.9%

Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
27.2%



Hey, if the slimy bastard can use the churches to get himself elected, why can't the churches call for his impeachment? :shrug:

[Maestro]

72. Done

And I grew up in the United Methodist Church. It's nice to see that from an organized religious group.

[tibbir]

75. Done

Still over 64% day he was right to call for impeachment. :bounce:

[samsingh]

76. done

anyone know what the results are?

[BeatleBoot]

80. Jim Winkler - any relation to The Fonz?

Henry Winkler?

Just askin'

:shrug:

[bigwillq]

81. I voted but

it didn't show me any results.

[eleny]

82. Same here

[bigwillq]

84. What's up with that????

:shrug:

[eleny]

85. Maybe they've noticed the flood of votes

Btw, when I go to vote in a poll, I usually reload the page just in case votes from DU visitors are blocked.

[DTinAZ]

87. then keep voting until you see the results screen

because there's indeed something wrong with their web voting script....I had to vote seven or eight times until it finally "took" and I was presented with results. This was using Internet Explorer (not by choice), because when I tried to vote using FireFox, it never did seem to "take" and my selection kept disappearing.

So, my suggestion is to use IE to go to:

http://ird-renew.org

click on the "Vote" button on the "Weekly Poll" in the left-hand column, and then keep submitting your vote (the first choice, of course) until you're presented with a results screen.

DT

[B Calm]

83. Done..eom

[Liberal In Texas]

88. Done. 65% NO.

No. Jim Winkler is right to call for Bush's impeachment.
65%
President Bush should be impeached, but it is inappropriate for a church official to say it.
7.8%
Winkler was wrong to call for Bush's impeachment.
27.2%

[ProgressivePatriot]

89. Done. 65% n/t

[Poiuyt]

92. Winkler is right - 65.4%