People....it's not "voter fraud"

[New Earth]

I have been fighting this framing since the 04 election, mostly in the Election Reform forum.
I still come out to the other forums and elsewhere on the internet and see people still using the phrase "voter fraud".

While there may be a few cases where the voter actually commits the fraud, what we are usually referring to around here is the bread term for any fraud in an election, which is election fraud, specifically the fraud committed by the election officials with hacked machines or shortage of machines, or suppression of voters. The bulk of the fraud in elections is fraud committed AGAINST the voters.

Most of you, I'm sure, know that the Republicans have been trying to pass laws to make it harder for citizens to vote. Trying to make it required to show ID, etc. Their so-called reason for doing this is to prevent "voter fraud", this is the term THEY use, to refer to those very few who may have been a voter committing some kind of fraud in their vote.

Can you see the difference? Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but over the years most people have agreed once it's pointed out to them.
Please please please, do not use "voter fraud" unless you are specifically referring to a voter who committed fraud. Only because --- once people get familiar with the Republicans definition of "voter fraud", and they then hear about what the real problem is (machines, etc) being referred to as "voter fraud", the issue is going to be blurry. "OMG VOTER FRAUD WAS RAMPANT IN THIS PAST ELECTION". People are going to think it was just a bunch of voters cheating in the vote somehow and not realize it was fraud committed AGAINST the voters.

Perfect example of real "voter fraud" Ann Coulter. She tried to vote in 2 different towns/precincts? Don't know the whole story but the gist of it, but that is real "voter fraud".

Anyway - not trying to tell anyone what to do but you know :shrug:

i guess it's about framing and semantics.
:spank:

[tanyev]

1. Now that you mention it, the Ann Coulter story is the perfect

opportunity to frame this.

Stolen election = Election fraud
Ann Coulter = Voter fraud

Thx for pointing it out!

[left is right]

2. Exactly right

Ann Coulter is almost certainly guilty of voter fraud. Everything else is election fraud. And isn't it amazing that both frauds were perpetrated by the same group of people?

[Jade Fox]

3. Thank you....

Yes, that framing makes all the difference in the world.

[feelthebreeze]

4. Faye...

Been following your argument since the 04 challenge by Boxer. Still holds as true today as ever. We hopefully will see a huge awakening to these fundamental issues of our vote. Don't stop beating the drum and framing the argument around those who perpetuate this anti democratic fraud. Thanks for all the years of service Faye.

[Janice325]

5. Thanks for pointing that out, Faye.

Point taken. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess I wasn't thinking,d'uh.
I can see where that's been a "pet peeve" of yours, and deservedly so. Besides, "election fraud" does sound much more serious.
I hope Ann Coulter does get convicted of "voter fraud." (and thanks to Ann for being so kind and being such a good example of "voter fraud" for us. Way to go, Ann.:rofl:)
k&r
Now, anytime I'm on a thread where "voter fraud" is used incorrectly, I'll add my two cents and say "are you referring to 'election fraud?'"

[Gormy Cuss]

6. Voter fraud: voting under false pretenses.

Election fraud: engineering a manipulation of the vote results.


Sometimes election fraud takes the form of coordinated vote fraud. I think that's where the language gets confusing. If someone arranged for people to show up at polling places and claim to be someone they're not, or arranged for the registrations of people ineligible to vote, that's election fraud. The people who filled out the ballots committed voter fraud.

There is very little unorganized voter fraud.

[patrice]

7. ANY rhetorical sloppiness can and will be used against you.

Election fraud it is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. Let's call it what it really is: election tampering

:grr:

[emulatorloo]

9. kick and nominating n/t

[johnaries]

10. See, Faye - you need to spend more time in GD.

:hi:
Of course, I should spend more time in ERD. I'll admit I haven't been there in a while. :spank:

[New Earth]

11. welll I will be here more often now

chasing down all the "voter fraud" posts like i used to in ERD :hi:

[aquart]

12. Right. NEVER let them set the language. Rephrase. Reframe. Attack.

As long as we accept their framing, we're on the defensive.

[bettyellen]

13. you go faye!

:hi:

[New Earth]

16. hi betty

is that cat..........blue? :wtf: :hi:

[bettyellen]

23. no, she's a smoked tortoise cornish rex

it came out odd on my camera phone.
but yes, those are boobs.
LOL.

[New Earth]

25. omg WTF

i didn't even notice the boobs. those are some big boobies for a cat :scared:

[bettyellen]

27. search for me and Caindy

and you'll find better pics of her and her little friend sweet pea, both recent mommies.

[hootinholler]

31. Hey B.E.

:hi:

Couldnt give Faye a hug and not you.

:hug:

-Hoot

[bettyellen]

34. tks! it's like DC all over again!

always good to see you hoot!
:HUG:

[Janice325]

14. Election fraud it is!

Thanks again, Faye. Don't let "them" (whoever they might be) drive you nuts.
Please keep up the good work.

[robbedvoter]

15. Not election fraud either - it's STOLEN ELECTION

Fraud implies a few crooked things here and there - like Illinois with Nixon. Stolen is where such fraud amounts to OVERTURNING the national result.

[New Earth]

18. stolen election is fine too

as long as it references the election, machines, etc. and not the voter (unless of course, it is a specific case where the voter is at fault)
(in my opinion)

[robbedvoter]

21. Oh, I got your point just fine - just added another.

The "voter" BS is an excuse for ID cards, literacy tests and other disenfrenchising techniques.
I was just adding the point that while fraud existed more or less in all elections, it only amounted to steals since 2000 onwards.

[MH1]

47. You can have fraud without it changing the outcome.

And it's still just as wrong.

[Patsy Stone]

17. True then

and true now! :hi:, Faye!

[mod mom]

19. I first came here (+ became aware of DU) when organizing a protest after

the '04 election in Cols OH. It was suggested that DU would reach the audience I was looking for. One of my first memories here, Faye is of you commenting on the term Election fraud NOT voter fraud. Glad your posting again instead of lurking!

Are you ready for round 2 of Huff Po?

[New Earth]

22. not sure

if and when i'm going to submit it again. i'm going to go through garybeck's election fraud DVD and see if there is anything else in there can be submitted. my video is on his DVD as well. the only thing is, the submission has to be something original. if what's on the DVD is all filled with just news pieces or just straight up video with no creative side to it, i don't think they are going to accept it. he sent me the link to d/l it but i haven't had time yet, will prob. get to that today. then maybe i'll still submit mine and he can submit one on his DVD, that way there is double the exposure, alongside RFK's new article. :bounce:

[cascadiance]

20. Another to keep separate is "campaign finance fraud"...

That's really a separate issue too when someone talks about election fraud. They really should be tackled as separate issues, as they require completely separate solutions (public financing, etc. for campaign finance fraud, accountable voting machines for election fraud). Sometimes when someone says "Clean Elections" they aren't really sure which issue that term refers to, when those who know about it know that it refers to fighting campaign financing fraud with public financing of elections.

[NoodleyAppendage]

24. I call it a "successful coup attempt".

We have been subject to 6 years of no less than a complete coup de etat by radical forces seeking to transform our representational democracy to a theocratic/fascist state.

J

[New Earth]

26. fine with me

i don't care if people call it cat piss, just don't call it voter fraud!!!!! :D

[Kip Humphrey]

28. Repeat after me: E-L-E-C-T-I-O-N fraud... Get it?

For VOTER fraud, SEE Ann Coulter!

[BlooInBloo]

41. But it's not the ELECTION that's committing the fraud!

:rofl:

[struggle4progress]

48. Perhaps "GOPer fraud" is more to your taste?

[hootinholler]

29. Hey Faye!

:hi:

How ya been girl?

:hug:

-Hoot

[New Earth]

30. good

always been lurking around here just stopped posting for a whille. thanks to Mod Mom, i've been re-inspired :)

just working, obsessing over my favorite bands, just moved a few months ago back to a town i used to live in before, waiting for my sweet prince to come and get me so we can be together :hi:

[Balbus]

32. I prefer to the term "strategize about upcoming elections"

instead of whining and making up loony stories about why we lost the last elections. But that's just me...

[New Earth]

33. sure

:eyes:

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. Can't be repeated often enough, and it looks like it will have to

be repeated ad infinitum. Sometimes an imprecise use of words can be so counter-productive.

[grace0418]

36. So what is child abuse?

I always thought it was children being abused; who knew children could be so violent?

Sorry to be snarky but I think voter fraud can also mean defrauding voters from a fair and proper counting of their votes. Anyone with half a brain can determine through context whether the person voting was being dishonest or whether they themselves were the victim. If they don't have half a brain then they probably don't give a shit about any of it. Besides, we're talking about people who think "liberal" is a dirty word because they never bothered to read the definition.

Anyway, there are lots of words and phrases in the English language that can have multiple meanings and need context in order to be properly defined. Instead of getting so hot and bothered about the proper definition of voter fraud/election fraud, let's just fight to put a stop to all of it.

[New Earth]

37. i've heard that argument before

also heard someone trying to use the "consumer fraud" phrase against me.

the main point is 'framing' the issue politically. that is a part of doing something to stop it.
if you haven't noticed, "framing" is one of the Republicans "weapons"

[grace0418]

50. Well I think I actually answered this in my other post but I'll say it

here too. I don't think this is an issue of framing. I think it's an issue of pet peeves.

[New Earth]

38. besides

aren't you the one who i asked a while back to change your sticker from "voter fraud" to "election fraud"?

you thought i made sense back then, and even changed it :shrug:

i also bought one

[grace0418]

49. I did indeed. You are correct.

And I certainly didn't want to insult anyone, so I changed the artwork when you asked me. But the more I thought about it the more I came to realize that it's just another one of those quirks of the English language that needs context. So to me both ways are correct.

My point was that this argument has become more like the work of the Grammar Police than a matter of framing, especially when the title of the thread sounds like an admonishment and the post is complete with a smiley paddling another smiley.

I'm sorry, I just don't personally agree that insisting on the phrase "election fraud" qualifies as "framing" because I believe most people who care about the issue of stolen elections understand who is doing the stealing. Even folks who have told me I am nuts for believing that the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen seem to understand that I'm not talking about my 75-yr-old neighbor sneaking in extra votes for Bush. They all know I believe BushCo committed the fraud, even if they think I'm a loon.

As far as I'm concerned, both phrases are correct, along with "election theft," "stolen election," "felony," "high crimes" and a number of other names. A stolen election by any name smells just as foul. Call it what you will, but I'm more concerned about stopping it than framing it.

[Kurovski]

39. K&R

It is what it is: ELECTION FRAUD. Most Voters are just trying to vote.

[BlooInBloo]

40. And I guess it's not "securities fraud"?

Because, after all, it's not the securities that are committing the fraud. Can you see the difference?

And I guess it's not "child abuse" either, since it's not the child that's committing the abuse. Can you see the difference?

Nor would it be an "oil embargo", since it's not the oil that's doing the embargoing...

i guess it really IS about framing and semantics.

Sheesh. Somebody shoot me now.

[New Earth]

42. you obviously didn't read the entire original post

and you don't have to be so rude.

[BlooInBloo]

43. And it's not "chicken alfredo", because it's not the CHICKEN...

... that's the alfredo after all...

And it's not "half sister", because it's not the half that's actually the sister...

:rofl:

You are right on one thing tho: I don't HAVE to be so rude.

[Justice Is Comin]

44. Vote "Rigging"

is the term we need to get out there. Nothing will identify quicker with most people.

[Canuckistanian]

45. I've never called it 'voter fraud'

And I've heard the term many times. And yes, it's a misnomer.

But that's the reason the GOP wants to use these machines or so they say. They're concerned (so they claim) that they're protecting against massive ballot stuffing or illegal voter registration by Democratic agents.

Let's try not to use that erroneous term.

[jarnocan]

46. I have occasionally goofed-but here is another concern I have

but usually I say election fraud or fruadulent elections
This thing about being fined for not turning in registrations on time -is frightening for many reasons, ONE is that the repub operatives who pretend they are holding non-partisan registration drives will be able to destroy the dem ones and just say- "oops had to do it- we didn't get them in on time".