What is bisexuality?

[Nikki Stone 1]

It sounds like a no-brainer, a silly question. But I was rereading the the TG threads and wondering how much of sexual orientation is in-born and how much of it may be something else. I remember reading that most societies had some form of same-sex behavior, but it wasn't always considered deviant. Often, sexuality was fluid, with sort of a bisexuality being more normal.

I don't know how true these accounts are. Also, I do know that most people feel that they fall pretty much on one side or the other of the gay/straight divide, and that much of the gay rights movement is based on this divide being biological.

I don't know much about this, and would be interested to find out people's take on this.

Also, I think the transgender issue is quite different from sexual orientation; it's more about gender identification than sexual desire, at least that's what it seems like.

I would really be interested in learning more about this.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

1. Have you heard of the Kinsey Scale?

0- Exclusively heterosexual

1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual

2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual

3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual

4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual

5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual

6- Exclusively homosexual


Many theorize human sexuality is more of a continuum than absolutes. Bisexuality, in a strict sense would be an attraction to both genders.

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. I never saw this before.

Thanks.

What did Kinsey base this on?

[Iniquitous Bunny]

6. Years of study on sexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Kinsey

[Hippo_Tron]

54. How do you find out where you fit?

I'm definately heterosexual (I think about women in a sexual way just as much as any male) but on occasion I have thoughts about what it would be like to engage in sexual activity with a guy. It doesn't really gross me out, either. It definately doesn't turn me on like thoughts of sex with women, though, so I'm definately predominantly heterosexual. I'd say probably a 1 or a 2, although I've heard that people who have more homosexual tendancies tend to repress them and I definately don't do that. So maybe I'm a 0. Who knows...

[benburch]

2. I think we are ALL situationally bisexual...

...but that usually there is a biologically determined preference for one sex or the other. Some people have no apparent preference for either sex, or a very weak preference, and those people I would term true bisexuals.

BTW, I am bisexual myself, so I might be too close to the issue to have the proper perspective.

[Nikki Stone 1]

7. Situationally? Does that mean behavior but not hardwired orientation?

If you don't mind me asking-and if you do, just ignore this-how does being bisexual play out? Do you know you are bisexual from early on? That something is different? Or is it something that kind of takes you by surprise after you've experienced yourself as heterosexual? Sorry if this is a little garbled.

BTW, I wanted to tell you that I like your posts.

[benburch]

17. I knew I was bisexual from about age 13.

Many people have very different experiences, though.

I've known people who had NO idea they were bisexual until fairly late in their lives when they met somebody of their own sex whom they were attracted to.

I think it is a combination of choice and destiny... Neither a "lifestyle choice" as the Christian Right would have you believe, nor a hardwired biological imperative as many GBLT activists would have you believe. I think there are strong biological tendencies, but I also believe that most human beings can adapt and change in ways that transcend those tendencies.

And thank you for your kind words.

[Nikki Stone 1]

22. What I worry about is that binary: biological hardwiring/lifestyle choice

What you are positing is a little different--some biology, some choice, something else? I worry that any aspect of choice opens the door for the christofacists to send anyone in a same-sex relationship to a shrink to change their "choice".

Maybe that is one of the reasons that bisexuality is harder to talk about.

[benburch]

24. Personally...

...I think it is the hardcore heterosexuals who need the therapy.

But yes, not having it be a binary choice is problematic, but people are not binary creatures.

[Nikki Stone 1]

29. I'd have to agree with you there. :)

And people are not binary. They are also not consistent.

And yet, I have good friends who have lived in loveless marriages with men, knowing deep down that they wanted women, not men. Getting out of those marriages (usually later in life) and finding a woman meant liberation for them. That is why I have always seen gay/straight as a binary, and why the whole concept of bisexuality seemed odd to me.

[Clark2008]

48. Why?

I'm hardcore homosexual, but I have no problem with people who aren't.

Why do I need therapy? I simply just don't find women sexually appealling at all. I find men, however, simply gorgeous and always have.

[benburch]

51. Didn't say you needed therapy.

Unless, that is, you are so invested in being "hardcore" that you would be revolted with yourself if you some day met a woman who turned you on. Then you may need some therapy to be more accepting of who you are without reference to any labels.

[Clark2008]

57. Oh - well, that hasn't happened, and, if it did, it wouldn't

revolt me.

I just don't forsee it happening. I'm 36 years old and was, for 12 years, in a profession where I met tons and tons and tons of people; therefore, I'm fairly sure that it won't if it hasn't already.

But, if it did, I wouldn't find it appalling, nor, as an extremely happily-married woman (we're talking I met my soul mate - finally - and would do absolutely nothing to hurt him), would I act upon it.

[Nikki Stone 1]

66. That's how I took it

It did come off ambiguous

[ncrainbowgrrl]

53. Personally, I had no idea I could be bi- it took meeting someone...

of the Opposite sex that I was attracted to for me to re-question my sexuality. I was sure that I was a lesbian. Had come out to family, friends, and started doing campus activism.

And then I met him.
And then I had to confront my own bi-phobia that I had picked up along the way.
And then I came out as bi.
And watched as some of my "friends" rejected me
For loving
And I wanted to scream at their hypocrisy.
But remembered my own previous bi-phobia
So I said nothing

And one day, I was told that I was claiming heterosexual privilege and taking the "easy way out."
So I laughed.
Because it wasn't an easy decision for me.
The ring I wear on my finger matches his.
But only because we designed them together.

I'm as queer as a three dollar bill- and as straight as you want to see me.
And if you ask, I'll tell.
If you don't, well...
I guess there's no sense in talking about my partner; my significant other; (my husband); my mate
To some people- either gay or straight.

I'm just little old me. The girl that fell in love with the person.
Who in a voice scared and weak
told the boy her secret. (all quiet and meek.)
And he just asked "So?"

[dweller]

62. *boink*

(i couldn't 'kick' this thread)


you found Love. . . so happy for you!

dp

[Neoma]

3. From urbandictionary:

A person capable of having physical, romantic, and sexual attraction attractions towards both sexes.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bisexual

[mcctatas]

5. It's the Kinsey scale...

(on edit, looks like my post is redundant...so my new answer is bisexuals are just greedy!)
Kinsey Scale

0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6- Exclusively homosexual

always made sense to me.

[benburch]

9. Except that I do not believe 0 and 6 actually exist.

There may be people who are so messed up in the head that they THINK they are a zero or a six, though.

[Yollam]

15. A lot of people invest a lot in those identities "straight" and "gay"

And society is uncomfortable with people in between. Society is comfortable with the swishy stereotypes of "Will & Grace" or "Queer Eye", but not so comfortable with a gay man who doesn't "act gay", and not really comfortable with effeminate straight men, either. Seems like David Bowie was the only one who really got away with open bisexuality, and that was just because he was so damn cool.

[benburch]

21. I think you understand the issue completely. nt

[Nikki Stone 1]

16. So we're all a little bisexual?

THat might be politically problematic.

[benburch]

19. I believe so.

And it *is* a political problem. And it is also why open bisexuals are loved by neither the gay nor the straight communities.

[TahitiNut]

46. Well, I'm pretty close to '0' and it sometimes pisses me off.

I've had a few close lesbian friends, with a couple of whom I've discussed this very topic. While one acknowledged a very mild shrug (nothin' to write home about) to intimacy with a male, the other acknowledged the same feelings ranging from aversion to a platonic-at-best acceptance, both based on their experiences. While I recall the fairly typical preadolescent 'experimentation,' my feelings are, at the very best, a think-about-something-else-until-its-over. Now, I obviously don't think anyone is an 'expert' due to their sexual orientation, I felt that an honest and ope conversation on this topic was more valuable to me from a lesbian perspective, since it sorta 'triangulates' the very same subject: sex with males. (Besides, they were very good friends of mine in a committed relationship with each other ... and glad to be honest with their straight friend.)

It sometimes pisses me off, actually. I guess, at the core, I'm greedy. :dunce:

I think, if there's anything I've learned, it's not to paint others' attitudes in my own image - or categorize them according to my own 'rules.' I think that's probably a mistake, no matter where I might be coming from. It'd be a disservice to myself - keeping me from learning. :shrug:

[Clark2008]

50. Don't agree with you there.

I'm neither messed up, nor a mili-inch past zero.

I can fully comprehend that a woman can BE attractive, but I have no attraction to any. I can, artistically, see the beauty of the female body, but don't, personally, have any attraction to it.

Please don't make blanket generalizations about peoples' psyche when you've not met the entire world.

Edited to add: I also believe in this scale and have since I made it up in my mind at an early age, never having even heard of Kinsey until my adulthood (I seriously thought I was the only person to have thought this way, but that's a teenager for you). I just don't agree with you that people aren't absolute unless they're "messed up." I don't think anyone who's totally a "6" on this scale is "messed up," either.

[Djinn]

55. nobody made any blanket statements

I think the question asked of you was not have you ever found a woman attractive but what you would do, how you would feel, IF one day you did. If you'd be horrified then I'd agree that'd be fucked up.

So far I've never met a woman or a transexual that I've wanted to pursue a relationship with, but I acknowledge that one day I just might and that by acknowledging that possibility I perhaps wont look past someone who may well be perfect for me.

Learnt a LONG time ago to never say never, just makes you look like a dick if and when never becomes "well maybe just this once"

[Clark2008]

60. What would I do?

Neither be appalled nor act on it (because I've made a complete committment to someone else, a male, my husband/lover/soul mate).

I was merely asserting that it's never happened to me. I doubt it will and I'm not messed up if it doesn't. I didn't say it couldn't.

[Djinn]

64. Do you agree

That not acting on it if you felt it (assuming you were single obviously) because of an insistence about your sexuality would be kinda scewed though?

Just like the people who pretend to be straight, get married etc because despite being attracted to someone of the same sex would never act on it because they refuse to see themselves as anything other than 100% straight?

If you do then you agree with what was originally stated

[benburch]

56. A true zero or a true six...

...would be somebody for whom there could not possibly be a member of the appropriate opposite or same sex who could stir feelings of sexual lust.

And I simply don't believe that human brains are constructed that way - I've seen how adaptable they are, and I've experienced the surprising feelings of sexual attraction to somebody you could not ever have imagined could interest you.

So, you can continue to believe that such a woman could not possibly exist, that's OK. But I will continue to think you are mistaken..

[Clark2008]

59. OK, we'll agree to disagree

But I think you should have been more careful in your wording.

You said above that you thought people who were absolute zeros or sixes are "messed up" and that's, ultimately, what I took offense to. I don't believe anyone is "messed up" no matter where they fall on the Kinsey scale, as long as they ACCEPT where they fall for who they are.

As I also explained above, I was in a profession that required my meeting with tons of people daily for 12 years and it never happened, so I don't "foresee" it ever happening, especially now when I simply don't meet as many people. It does not mean it couldn't, but the chances are nearly nil.

[Yollam]

10. I used to be a 3, now I'm about a 2, at least in my mind.

In practice I'm a 0, but I don't have any taboos in my fantasies. :)

[Raster]

14. You go, Boy!

:pals:

[Yollam]

8. Bisexuality is totally normal.

And what is observed in many animals as "homosexual" behavior, is more aptly described as bisexual, since few animals are exclusively homosexual.

Problem is, bisexuality in practice is at odds with both the dominant family-oriented straight culture, and the gay subculture, and since any kind of promiscuity poses health risks, most sensible bisexuals end up having to choose a life partner of one gender or the other, then most self identify as straight or gay. I ended up with a member of the opposite sex, because I loved her and felt like that relationship would satisfy more of my emotional needs than a same-sex relationship would have. We've been married and faithful for 12 years, but I still consider myself bisexual, and I think trying to repress that side of oneself would not be healthful. ( I don't consider being loyal to one partner as a form of repression)

But I personally believe that most people, especially men, who are really closer to the middle of the spectrum tend to just deny that side of themselves and pose as straight, often overcompensating with a bunch of macho bullshit, then secretly cruising for men when nobody's looking. As a bisexual, the claims by straight men to be repulsed by the bodies of other men, or gay men claiming to be grossed out by women's genitalia seem really bizarre. Men and women are the same thing, only differentiated by a few hormones in the womb at a certain time. I don't see how anyone could be "grossed out" by either sex. Both are beautiful. I'm deeply grateful to have experienced both in my lifetime.

[Nikki Stone 1]

12. I really like your answer.

There is a lot for me to think about.

And it seems that bisexuality has its subversive aspect in that it cuts through the gay/straight binary. We seem to live by binary oppositions and base power systems on them.

[Yollam]

23. I want to also say - we obsess WAY too much about sex in this society.

I remember as a teen being so preoccupied by it and wanting it so badly, but then one I started being sexually active, it wasn't long before it was no big deal. I could go months without having sex and it wouldn't faze me. in fact, I went 3 years before I met my wife. And we could do it every day for a week, no biggie. It's such a miniscule part of who I am. It's weird who people make their sexuality such a cornerstone of their being, when for me, it's just a tiny facet.

But to each his own, I guess.

[Nikki Stone 1]

30. It's like a dieter and chocolate cake.

It's better to have the damned cake.

[Yollam]

32. Well, it's nice to know the cake is there and you can have it if you want

...but you don't have to obsess about it. But when it's forbidden, you suddenly want the cake, really badly.

[Nikki Stone 1]

37. Oh yeah. I've been there before.

I wonder what would happen if we just didn't freak out so much about who people loved.

[proud patriot]

11. Navajo treated homsexuality as sacred medicine

to be blessed with . I'm sure this would include
bisexual people

I forget their word for though .

[Raster]

20. nàdleehé

The Dinéh (Navaho) refer to them as nàdleehé one who is ‘transformed’, ... described people who have some degree of homosexuality as "Two-Spirit People.

http://www.tperkins.com/spiritual/two_spirit_people.html

[proud patriot]

25. Thank You

I saw a PBS special on it a few years back .

Really interesting how differing cultures
view things.

[Raster]

28. My pleasure. Thanks for being a Mod.

[mtnester]

67. I am thinking that in most cultures, they would have been automatically

assumed and given "shaman" status, am I correct? Not just in Native North American tribal culture, but across the board, going back who knows how far.

[MnFats]

13. And as Woody Allen said..

...being bisexual doubles your chances of having a date on Saturday night.....

[Zhade]

18. A bisexual is one who can love and/or is attracted to both sexes.

There, that was easy.

I consideredmyself bisexual until this week, when I realized I can love and *cough* any gender/orientation. It matters not to me.

[Toucano]

26. We have such an insane need to identify, label, categorize and explain.

All the while drawing borderlines that eventually diminish true understanding of everything.

I often wish people could just be. And accept the beingness of others.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

27. In my own experience, and this may apply to no one else,

but I find the whole ball of wax that is 'gender' to be bunk. There is nothing of me that is more female than male, more male than female. Accordingly, the factors that attract me to a person have nothing to do with their gender identification.

[Nikki Stone 1]

31. I'm a little confused by your post.

I'm not I sure I understand. Surely body parts count for something as do chromosomes? I'm probably expressing myself badly here, but isn't there something very basic about gender?

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

39. Well, I'm not the norm at all, but

no, body parts really don't count for much. Sex/gender are a lot more complex and a lot less binary than most people are really aware of. Physically, there is a spectrum of appearance, and chromosomally there are at least five sexes (xx, xy, xo, xyy, xxy), though the latter three tend to be assigned 'male' or 'female' at birth depending on the appearance of said body parts.

Anyway, I myself identify as an androgyne, neither male nor female. It's a bit like being transgender, except I know that even if I went through the whole mess of transition, I wouldn't feel any more comfortable on the other side.

The people I'm attracted to definitely fall within a 'type', just as some guys only like blondes, or some women really love foreign accents. But the only way gender plays a part in that type is that I am totally turned off by really macho men and by simpering, "helpless" women.

Everyone else's mileage may vary.

[Nikki Stone 1]

43. Thank you for your post

I am learning a lot tonight!

Do andrgynes vary biologically? In other words, is it more or less an identity thing, and body parts may vary?

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

47. Yeah, there's a lot of biological variation.

Among those who identify as androgynous, there are physically normal XX/XY individuals, there are intersex people, and there are brave souls who identified as transgender until they found out, post-transition, that being a woman didn't fit any better than being a man did (or vice versa).

At least, those are the people I've encountered - mostly online, as we have even fewer numbers than transpeople.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

33. 37% of males! I hope they come out of the closet long enough to vote!

:dem: :hi: Instances of at least one same-sex experience to orgasm:

* 37% of males
* 13% of females, http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/research/ak-data.html#homosexuality :eyes: ************************************************************************** :kick: :blush:Hmmm...This is interesting!

[begin_within]

34. It's where you buy sex.

[Djinn]

35. I know what it's not

and that's snogging another chick at a nightclub because you want the blokes to think you're hot and "out there"

Sorry off topic I know but it's something that's been shitting me lately, women kissing everywhere even though half of them would probably curl up and die if they saw two men kissing, or anyone actually treated them like they were gay.

Anyway that said, I think the "definition" has been provided here but frankly I don't care, it just doesn't occur to me AT ALL when I meet someone to even consider what gender/orientation/colour or flavour of person they generally find themselves shagging.

I couldn't care less (unless of course I want to shag them in which case it may have some bearing) So far I've found myself attracted to men, there are women I've found sexy but that's a different thing, however if I find myself one day being attracted to a woman, someone who used to be a woman/man, whatever I'd go with it, the chances of two people finding each other and being happy are pretty small, why would you cut out the possibility of that happiness when and where you find it.

As my old man said when asked how he'd feel if one of his 4 kids told them he/she was gay "If they brought home a goat I couldn't care less, as long as the goat made them happy"

[Nikki Stone 1]

40. You crack me up!

And I agree with this showing off for the guys thing. In the high school where I taught, the girls were doing this kind of thing at the guys' request, even if they really didn't want it. To me, it's got to be your own choice, your own desire. This crap about doing things to get or keep a guy is just more enprisonment.

[Djinn]

52. But havn't you heard

"This crap about doing things to get or keep a guy is just more enprisonment"

Acting and dressing like every sad old man's fantasy regardless of whether it's something you want to do is the new feminism, girl power man! :sarcasm:

It's odd cause I'm usually arguing against many feminists on the issue of sexuality, I think owning one's desire is empowering but I'm just confused as to why so many young (and not so young) girls have managed to convince themselves that their desire just happens to coincide miraculously with the editors of the lad's mags

[Nikki Stone 1]

65. I am so with you on this!

I think our young women have been sold a bill of goods.

[TygrBright]

36. Societies where sexual mores are integral to controlling the population...

...tend to focus on defining extremes to exemplify "good" and "evil." Issues of political, social, and economic power are all amenable to control through the control of sexual mores, so it's pretty common in most human societies. So common, in fact, that there is no way of establishing an objective, verifiable biological "norm" for human sexual behavior, since we've manipulated sexual patterns so extensively.

The "natural" human (a mythical creature if there ever was one) may be less subject than other primates to hormonal imperatives, but generally hormonal imperatives are going to define an unbiased "norm" for any primate species. From an evolutionary standpoint, any time the species isn't limited by extreme shortages of survival resources, it will tend toward expansion, i.e., a reproduction-focus strategy, or a pronounced tendency to heterosexual preference, as a response to competition stresses: outbreed your rivals.

In the absence of stresses from either competition OR scarcity, we would probably be more like Bonobos-- flexible, enjoying different modes of sexuality at different times in our lifecycles in response to differing circumstances. There's a case to be made for this based on anthropological profiles across a wide variety of human societies, it's a pattern that seems to repeat itself whenever there isn't a stronger cultural imperative repressing it. Early adolescence sees more same-sex orientation and experimentation, early adulthood/maturity (best time for healthy reproduction) sees a general shift to heterosexual patterns, and post-childrearing adults often renew or explore same-sex bonding behaviors.

It's not really possible to lift ourselves out of our cultural matrix and explore sexuality in any kind of 'vacuum of objectivity;' we are too much creatures of the cultural matrix, even if we are in conscious rebellion against that matrix. Kinsey's research was the best attempt to date to find some kind of objectivity, but even he was aware of the extent to which he was describing culture rather than biology.

From a biological standpoint, sex is one of the things most controlled by chemistry; I suspect that if our cultural matrix didn't imprint us so strongly the breakdown would look more like this:

20%: Humps anything that moves, might starve to death if enough willing partners available, no imperative to form pair-bonding
40%: Wild mostly-heterosexual youth, settles down to bear/raise children in pair-bond, resumes a less-vigorous but possibly more polymorphous recreational approach to sex in late maturity
20%: Essentially oriented to the pair-bond, either hetero- or homo-sexual, moderate in experimentation outside the bond, may or may not have strong parenting drive
20%: Asexual or very limited in sexual activity, may or may not seek pair-bonding but not strongly influenced by gender orientation other than as a cultural artifact

But there's no way to test the hypothesis.

speculatively,
Bright

[Nikki Stone 1]

42. Thanks! An interesting read

It is kind of odd, when you think about it, how tightly sexuality is controlled in most human societies. Animals seem to be more strictly controlled by biological cycles.

[TygrBright]

45. Not odd at all... humans are tricky and ingenious critters...

...when it comes to the basic human drives to establish control/power over one another. Smart enough to see the incredible biological force that is sexual drive for what it is: a control tool of fabulous potential. Want to accumulate property and hoard it among a priestly class under control of The Temple? Don't let your priests marry and reproduce and dissipate their energy in accumulating property and resources to support children: make 'celibacy' morally superior to sexual pair-bonding. Want to solidify political control in the hands of a few families/clans? Redefine "incest" to permit inbreeding, regardless of genetic hygeine.

Want your economy to preserve wealth in defined strata rather than transfer it freely among various strata? Restrict sexual choice as much as possible, in fact, eliminate it for half the population by putting it into the control of the other half. Want to protect your culture from the damaging influence of "outsiders" who might challenge your control? Make sure that "God" puts "marrying foreign women" right up there in the sin list. Need to expand your population to control larger territories and produce more cannon fodder to protect your control? Channel all sexual activity into reproduction only.

See? Easy. Not odd at all. Creepy as hell, but not in the least odd, given the perversity of human nature.

cynically,
Bright

[dysfunctional press]

38. it's what you have to do if you can't get it for free...

:evilgrin:

[LittleClarkie]

41. Someone once asked Boy George if he was bisexual

He said "Sure, I buy sex."

That was before he came out, of course.

[blogslut]

44. Procreaton

Let me throw a small wrench into the discussion.

When I was a young woman, I was super involved in gay culture. I was and am straight. Most of my friends were lesbian or gay or whatever.

When my male, gay friends began to look at me with procreation on their minds, I freaked out. I didn't understand how that was possible. When the gay bartender married a straight waitress friend of mine, I was confused. When my lesbian friend got married to a man and had kids, I began to question sexuality altogether.

If everyone was basically bisexual, why wasn't I?

You know what? I still don't have the answer. I am what I am. Other people are what they are. Just because you're gay/lesbian, that doesn't you want to be childless or keep your options closed to one sex. Just because you're straight, that doesn't mean you won't some day, look at someone of the same sex and change everything.

It's a mystery :)

[benburch]

49. I have a theory that you just never met the right woman.

Might NEVER meet that woman, either. And that is OK, because you would be just as accepting of yourself if that happened as you are now.

[blogslut]

61. Except for one thing

I love the cock. I love men. Then again, I've been celibate for 8 years.

I wish I could be a lesbian. It seems so much easier, with less of those damned games a gal plays with men. Just the same, I like to look at women. I can enjoy a woman's attractiveness and sensuality. But when it comes right down to it, the ladies just don't turn me on.

My thing is that I've spent way too much effort trying to find myself in someone else. I'm in the process of making my self whole. I'm digging it.

[JackDragna]

58. Never being without a date.

Badabing!

[Deja Q]

69. Is that meant to be humorous?

Go online, claim to be bisexual AND looking for a relationship.

Good luck.

[JackDragna]

70. Yes, it was.

Sorry if it hit close to home.

[LosinIt]

63. indeciveness!

[Deja Q]

68. So why have people told me oughtright I'm gay? What proof have they?