Two 500 ton bombs? What is left to identify? n/t

[cantstandbush]

[theHandpuppet]

1. Yeah, just saw the pics

Evidently Zarqawi left his fingertips behind.

[neoblues]

4. So they have his fingerprints?

I'd hate to imagine some of the body parts they'd get to pick from--and multiple person's parts to boot.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Apparently

They are reporting he was identified via fingerprints and other body scars.

[neoblues]

2. Only make sense...

What could be left? Maybe part of a finger, kneecap, tooth? Even then they'd need his DNA...

[malaise]

3. Another priceless moment

I had the same thought. Maybe it was Zarqawi version 101, 102, 0r 103.

[displacedtexan]

5. Easily explained...

The bombing took place in the town of Oh Right Sure!

[izzie]

6. Since I hardly believe anything this gov. tells me I am not

even sure there was one man leading that mess over there. I have c-span on the nuts are really out in force on this one. Frankly I am happy to see a killer gone if he is. These people are really acting odd about this killing. It is like a sex thing with them I swear.

[Catch22Dem]

7. You mean 500lb not ton, right?

I don't think we have any a/c which carry 500 ton bombs.

[madokie]

8. The equivalent of 500 tons of TNT, is what the 500 tons is in reference of

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. That would be a nuclear bomb, then

No, I think it was 500lb. No explosive is orders of magnitude more powerful than TNT, and no plane can drop 50 tons in one go.

[Sailor for Warner]

10. You don't need too much to get a positive ID

If they already had an idea that he was in there, they probably were able to get in there and ID the bodies pretty quick because they knew what they were looking for. I have knew one of the hostages that were beheaded and have lost 10 buddies to date over there. I am pretty damn happy that this scumbag is dead.

[Maru Kitteh]

52. I'm happy this gives you some satisfaction, I truly am but I doubt Z's

death will put a dent in the violence and death in the black effing hole of insanity that is the Iraq we've created. More buddies, sons, fathers and lovers will die. More "collateral damage" as in dead babies will be born, killed by us and avenged by their relatives. Dog meet tail - tail, dog.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. Absolutely Correct

This has to be 2 quarter-ton bombs. There isn't a plane in existence that could carry a one million pound bomb, let alone two of them. One would be 12 times the weight of the plane!
The Professor

[malaise]

15. Nice coincidence

that they showed us a tape from him a few weeks ago. I'm waiting from reports later in the day. I believe nothing that this regime says.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. You & Me Both

But, a 500 pound bomb would kill someone (whoever it is) just as thoroughly as a 500 ton bomb! Dead is dead!
The Professor

[madokie]

28. maybe this will help

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives.htm


Relative effectiveness factor (R.E. factor) is a measurement of an explosive's power for military demolitions purposes. It measures the detonating velocity relative to that of TNT, which has an R.E. factor of 1.00. TNT equivalent is a measure of the energy released from the detonation of a nuclear weapon, or from the explosion of a given quantity of fissionable material, in terms of the amount of TNT (trinitrotoluene) which could release the same amount of energy when exploded. The twelve-kiloton Hiroshima atomic bomb had had a blast effect alone equivalent to some twenty-five million pounds of TNT-that's million.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. If A Nuke Yes

But, since seismologists and satellite monitors from China, Russia, France, et al would have detected the vibrational, heat and X-ray signatures from a nuclear blast, that would be the front page news today!

RDX and HMX, which are the most commonly used HX's in aerial munitions, carry only a slight increase in explosive force per unit mass over TNT. They are denser and are more age stable than TNT, which is why they have supplanted TNT in most munitions. (More density means same weight in a smaller, easier to direct and easier to carry bomb. More stability means longer living munitions.)

A 500# bomb is a pretty big device. That would do a whole lot of damage. A 500 ton bomb, at about 240kg/cubic foot (sorry to mix units) would require the bomb to be 2000 cubic feet. That would be 40 feet long by 8 feet in diameter! I don't know that we even have a plane that would fit that, let alone get off the ground with a million pound payload!

The Professor

[madokie]

43. in searching for this info I read that c4 has 4 times the explosive power

of tnt for said amount :shrug:
I stand by my saying that a 500 ton bomb is the equivalent of 500 tons of tnt in explosive power not in weight. I am having a hard time finding a link but I will keep looking.

[ProfessorGAC]

46. Then You Found Bad Information

C4 does not have that level of energy. Chemical explosives are restricted to the total bond energy of the molecule. That's it! You cannot derive more energy than in the complete combustion of the entire molecule provides based upon heat of combustion.

The total bond energy of C4 is about 25% higher than TNT. That's mostly because there is free oxygen (not bound to the nitrogen molcule), which is derived from the ethylene oxide used in its synthesis. I can send you the details. (By email, i would guess, since i can't send chemical formulas and energy state equations over PM's.)

Yes, you're right the tonnage is based upon a TNT equivalent. If that's all you meant, then we agree completely. Still, there is no way a single chemical explosive can be delivered to provide 500 metric tons of TNT power. We have no such delivery system.

Even if you're information about C4 was correct (and it's not), the bomb would still have to weigh one-quarter of a million pounds! The "blockbusters" used in WWII on Germany (particular on Berlin and Munich) were ONE TON bombs! One ton!!! And those weren't TNT. Those were PETN which is a slightly higher energy level solid than TNT.

Side Note: I have expertise in the manufacture of explosive chemicals and in their applications. In fact, i helped the decon and elimination of obsolete ordinance at the defunct arsenal near my house about 8 years ago. I took my first ordinance classes with the A.C.E. back in the mid-to late 70's. So, i'm just trying to help.

The Professor

[madokie]

50. no problem, I'm all ears and eyes

peace

[Swamp Rat]

11. That's about million pounds apiece right?

Find me an airplane - on Earth - that can carry even one 500 ton bomb. A B-52 Stratofortress can only carry about 35 short tons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-52_Stratofortress

[Warren Stupidity]

13. 500 lbs not tons

But how exactly do they id him? Do they have his DNA on file? Dental records? Fingerprints?

Anyway this means little or nothing unless one buys into the theory that the insurgency is a bunch of foreign fighters or lead by foreigners like Zarqawi, and that the loss of Zarqawi will result in them all giving up and going home. Sorry if I am not buying that horse.

[Sailor for Warner]

16. Most of the leaders and people training these guys

Are foreign fighters, that is a fact. It does not mean that the Iraqi's will not eventually assume leadership of their own resistance movement but for the time being the people doing all of the training and planning are for the most part Jordanians or Yemeni's. With a HUGE "middle management" of Iraqi fighters who are maybe not ready for leadership of the movement. I dont think it will have a huge impact but one can hope if you knock off the educated and more tacically adept heads of the movement, you will be able to prevent the attacks of the less experienced schlups below them. But Im an optimist at heart, I guess that makes me a pariah in this place.

[sendero]

17. No...

... it will just make you flat fucking wrong, like everyone who thinks like you has been for 3 years now. Just wrong.

[maine_raptor]

18. Not a Pariah, but a realist, in my opinion.

And Welcome to DU!

The only problem with your theory is that in combat one learns quickly. I have always been of the opinion that Iraq is a giant training camp.

When you write: "I don't think it will have a huge impact but one can hope if you knock off the educated and more tactically adept heads of the movement, you will be able to prevent the attacks of the less experienced schleps below them", you forget a huge difference between our culture and theirs. To us, the killing of a leader would tend to discourage the followers, but to them it calls for further revenge. If you kill one member of a family, then you have made an enemy of that family down to the 7th or 8th cousin.

[Sailor for Warner]

26. Oh I am all over the cultural difference

I understand that, it is the issue of a bunch of foreigners without local connections. But the collateral damage mst be considered.

[maine_raptor]

45. Yes, and I saw in another that that you are currently in the military.

First; Thank you for your service. I know that might seem trite, but I do mean it.

Collateral Damage is a natural by-product of war. A nasty, dirty thing, and even more so when it happens within a culture that looks upon retaliation as a natural by-product also. And being an occupying power just adds fuel to the fire.

I can understand the rational for using a "surgical strike" to take the SOB out. He vowed not to be taken alive and was very likely heavily armed with good backup. Our side takes a lot fewer casualties that way using such tactics, which is a good thing.

But a couple of 500's I would consider a bit much.

With PCM's being what they are today, I would think a little less oomph would be in order.

That would help with the CD.

[lectrobyte]

32. Really? How do you "know" that? The same way we knew were the

WMDs were? Can I ask you two questions: Why do you think we went into Iraq? Do you really think killing a leader makes that big a difference when every smart bomb mis-targetting or collateral killing is probably creating more "insurgents"?

[Sailor for Warner]

33. I honestly dont care why we went anymore

I think it is a moot point and dont think it makes a difference at this point. And I talked about the point of collateral damage, I UNDERSTAND THAT THAT HAS AN EFFECT! However, just as killing one leader will not immediately stop the violence, the collateral damage will not immediately give rise to an army of thousands of terrorists. War is not arithmetic, it is more like calculus, lots of factors.

[lectrobyte]

36. Fair enough. And welcome to DU! I assume you are in the Navy

and I want to thank you for your service to our country.

[Sailor for Warner]

37. Yup

and thank you, I am sorry, I hate cyber-screaming. :)

[Virginia Dare]

47. Welcome to DU....

I think it's always good to have some insight from somebody who's "been there".

I assume you are a fellow Virginian? And which Warner are you for?
;)

[Sailor for Warner]

51. Well if I were for John Warner

I sure as hell wouldnt be here :)

But no, Im a Floridian again but I lived in VA for 5 years under ol' Mark. It was good times.
:)

[Virginia Dare]

53. OMG, from Mark Warner to Jebby Bush?

You poor thing.

I'd like to see Mark Warner make a good run, I think he will be a welcome voice in the Democratic Party. There are many here who don't like him because they think he's too much of a centrist, but I agree, he was a very good Governor, and I am interested to see what sort of Presidential campaign he's going to run.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. He was in jail in Jordan in the 90s

so they should have fingerprints, and maybe dental records. DNA might be more of a stretch, but even that is possible.

I agree that this doesn't mean the end of foreign fighters in Iraq, let alone the insurgency. It might have an effect on foreign fighter recruitment, though - he was their biggest publicity.

[Nevernose]

23. "They" are saying fingerprints, possibly DNA from relatives

Of course, they've killed him 47 times already, so who knows at this point?

[matcom]

19. well they COULD pull an intact passport out of the WTC on 9/11

to PROVE who did it :sarcasm:

[Philosoraptor]

24. Read Headline. Respond. Get a Doggy Treat.

Maybe the got a sample from one of Z's relatives. Hell all you need is a drop of blood right? A magic Bullet maybe?

[Fuzz]

20. They should have used 4 500 lb bombs

and let Pat Robertson leg press them out the bomb doors while singing 'Onward Christian Soldiers'.

[wicket]

35. LOL!

:rofl:

[DemonFighterLives]

38. Ya got me

:rofl:

[JNelson6563]

39. clever

:toast:

[malaise]

25. Lots of collateral damage

expect to hear of several innocents Iraqis living nearby who have been slaughtered.

[jbnow]

27. I wonder why air strikes

are so frequent once we are fighting insurgency and are not at war with Iraq.

If we are after really bad criminals here and suspect/know where they are we send in a swarm of policeman to surround and take them, we don't bomb the house or apartment they are in.

Why don't we have soldiers burst in to get the bad guys in Iraq?

Why is collateral damage so much more acceptable there than it would be here?

[lectrobyte]

29. I've lost the link, but there was an article a while back on our changes

in tactics. Supposedly our troops are in more of a "hunker down" mode around the green zone and airport to prevent more losses to snipers and IEDs.

[malaise]

30. They don't care

'You're with me or you're against me' and if you're in the way tough.
Edit - sp.

[Sailor for Warner]

34. Yes they do care, there are plenty of soldiers and commanders

who care alot.

[malaise]

48. How many times has he been killed

before and how many innocent Iraqis died as collateral damage in those occasions.
Look over 100,000 Iraqis are dead after their homeland was invaded in an illegal war so saying they care has no meaning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1380301

[bdamomma]

31. Yes, how many innocent civilians were also killed

with this so called Zarqawi's death, when is Osama coming out with his next video.

[oasis]

41. T.V. general says that explosives may not have been used. The weight

of the bomb was enough to collapse the building and crush the intended target.

[htuttle]

42. Oh, that's a good one...

[oasis]

44. Actually, it was MSNBC's Col. Jacobs who said it.

[deaniac21]

49. Two 100,000 pound bombs. That was one huge airplane.