If 2-500 lb bombs were dropped on me, you could still get my fingerprints?

[SodoffBush]

Wow. That's some fingerprint expert!

But I don't get how my facial features would still be distinguishable. How does that work?

[Virginia Dare]

1. From what I understand...

it depends on how far away you are from actual impact of the bomb?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Virginia Dare]

8. Yes, I can use logic...

but I'm still having problems with the "official" story, can you possibly break it down for me?

[rpgamerd00d]

11. He was in a safehouse. alQ tipped off the US to his location.

They dropped bombs.
Zarqawi got killed.

He was likely either in a house next to the one bombed, or else he was down in a bomb shelter underneath the safehouse.

[Lerkfish]

15. and you can verify the veracity of this because......?

just curious.

You seem to be awful willing to accept the administration's version, hook line and sinker.


why?

its not like they have been truthful with us in the past.

[rpgamerd00d]

18. Its not the administrations story, its international, and its the folks...

... in our military.

[Lerkfish]

20. oh well, then. your proof is stunning.

if its our military, it must be true....like the falsified Haditha reports, like the Abu Ghraib coverup.

ok, I get it.

sheesh.

[rpgamerd00d]

21. Try google.com, look at other countries news, then get back to me

[SodoffBush]

23. Speaking of other countries, the 14 that have colluded w/rendition

don't include Switzerland, France, Belgium, or the Netherlands, IF you're looking for a vacation destination that doesn't promote torture.

[Lerkfish]

29. again, your proofs are interesting. News orgs are reporting what the

military tells them.

how does that corroborate the military version? It only repeats it.

[ShortnFiery]

85. It's not The Administrations story? It's exclusively this Executive

Branch's - in coordination with The Pentagon's ---> A #1 PsyOps B.S. Story ... the whole stinking enchilada. :(

After all the lies the * Administration has shamelessly promoted, many here will take the word of the BushBotBorg over their own lyin' eyes?

That's just sad. :cry:

BTW, the rest of The World Community is running scared and thus simply parroting the asinine Bubbas in our Pentagon.

Our Ruling Class consists of some sick Mother F**kers, aye? :thumbsdown:

[Virginia Dare]

22. So where do the helicopters come in?

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-08T075226Z_01_GEO825572_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ-ZARQAWI.xml

[rpgamerd00d]

26. Here is the video of the attack (its shot from said helicopter)

http://today.reuters.com/tv/videoChannel.aspx?storyid=f4230bb1f63151a3113673c46e7e6ed4f92b4443&src=060806_1

[Virginia Dare]

36. Okay, am I being an idiot here?

because that's not what this says...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The al Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was killed in a joint attack by U.S. helicopters and Iraqi forces, ABC news reported on Thursday.

It said U.S. helicopters hit a house near Baquba, 40 miles (65 km) north of Baghdad, at 6 p.m. local time on Wednesday.

"Zarqawi was apparently injured at first... The Americans found him. They handed him over to the Iraqis and he later died of his injuries," ABC said.

It said seven people were hit in the helicopter attack, including two women, but it was not clear how many were killed or wounded.

Isn't this a totally different story?

[rpgamerd00d]

43. ABC is the only one with the "alive but died later" story. All the rest..

... said he died in the attack.

[Lerkfish]

47. so you dismiss the report?

its a majority rules sort of thing?

first you claimed your proof was news reports. Now you dismiss them.

man I would really have loved to face you in debate class.

:)

[rpgamerd00d]

50. I neither dismiss or behold that report.

The majority of the media reported his death from the bombing.
Only ABC seems to have a story (at this moment) about him surviving the actual bombing and dying later.

That neither proves nor disproves ABCs story. For all I know, ABC has it right, and is scooping everyone else.

It would even make sense given his body's condition, that he survived the initial blast due to being out of direct proximity of the weapons.

[Lerkfish]

61. "behold"? I assume you meant a different word choice, regardless...

at first you demanded we accept in lockstep the other reports or be called conspiracy nut idiots. Now that there is a conflicting report, you have reasonably expressed doubt as to which version is correct.

guess what, that makes you a conspiracy nut idiot, like the rest of us. We reserve judgement until we know more, just like you have done.

[rpgamerd00d]

62. You are incorrect.

There are no conflicting reports.

All news media is reporting him dead.

Most say he died in the blast.
ABCs says he survived it initially and died later.

There is no conflict. He is still dead.

[Lerkfish]

67. sigh...are you intentionally being obtuse?

many of us are not questioning his death, merely the circumstances of his death and the official story. This has been explained to you repeatedly in this thread alone.

[Virginia Dare]

52. That may be true...

but I haven't sifted through every single news story, so I can't be sure, ABC is a pretty credible source and they must have gotten the story from somewhere, so that tells me there are at least two versions of the story making the rounds, and that makes me a bit skeptical.

[rpgamerd00d]

54. Why?

In one case, he died as a result of the bombing.
In the other, he survived it a short while, then died.

Why would that make you skeptical that he's dead?

[Lerkfish]

68. open your mind for one small moment: we are saying the CIRCUMSTANCES

of his death are not determinable, and that we are skeptical of the official story. The fact that there are two possible stories of his death lend support to our intitial stance of skepticism.

[Virginia Dare]

70. I'm not skeptical that he's dead...

I'm skeptical of the official version of the story.

[Lerkfish]

71. good luck trying to get that point across.

he's impervious to clarification.

[Virginia Dare]

74. In point of fact the OP was not a dispute of his death....

only raising skepticism that they could match his fingerprints.

It's much easier to prove that you've killed him if you can produce a body.

My question is, if he was dead already, why did they drop the bombs?

[rpgamerd00d]

75. And my view is that the OP disputes his death.

Maybe the OP poster can clarify.

[Lerkfish]

76. seems pretty clear to me the OP is questioning how easy it would be

to retrieve fingerprints from such a corpse.

that is very clearly in the mode of disputing identifying the body or questioning the method of death.

how you jump from there to disputing there's a corpse, perhaps goes a great distance in explaining your inability to debate these issues within this thread.

reading comprehension is more than just for breakfast anymore.

[LibertyorDeath]

87. LOL They all are......

[alfredo]

77. He appears to be laying in rubble.

[joeunderdog]

Jessica Lynch flew one in. I was never prouder to be an American.

It wasn't all easy, though. She had to grab an Underdog pill after they shot down the copter, but she rallied in time to tear the Evil Zarqawi limb from limb with her bear hands. Swear to God. Heard it on Fox.

[Lerkfish]

14. its really cute how you refer to other DUers as idiots and

conspiracy theorists.

:shrug:

so your position is that this story should be taken precisely at face value? Why?

When has this administration NOT spun or lied anything?
have you forgotten how Saddam's "capture" in the hidey hole was staged, how they fabricated the Jessica Lynch story details, and the Pat Tillman fragging?
further, even more recently, how they lied about Haditha?

The real question is why its important to you to accept without critical analysis the administration's spin on this event.

why is that IMPORTANT enough to you to start calling others idiots?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

24. what am I coping with exactly?

I agree he's dead. However, I don't buy automatically at face value the story behind his death.
It could be true, but I resent being called an idiot if I don't completely trust the official line.

sorry if that offends you in some way, but I intend to keep my reservations. After all, this is the third time we've "killed" him, and the second time we've "captured" him. I think I'll wait a bit and see if the official story pans out, thanks.

[madmunchie]

27. I'd say that you are pretty naive to accept any story on face value

If nothing else, you should have learned that nothing is as it seems with this administration in charge.

[rpgamerd00d]

32. I dont accept this story at face value. I validated it myself.

[Lerkfish]

34. how did you do that? were you there when it happened?

what are your personal sources?

[rpgamerd00d]

38. google.com

Its really not that hard.

Unlike some DUers, I actually believe the international media when they all report the same thing.

[Lerkfish]

40. your faith is impressive, when they are all quoting the same source,

the us military.

First, you tell me you know its true because the military says so, then you say because the international media says so.

Are you really incapable of understanding the concept of a singular source which controls what the media reports? Were there embedded journalists on the raid?

Then you say you personally verified it, when all you did was read news reports on google.

you really should stay out of these sorts of debates, you're not really qualified to support your assertions.

[rpgamerd00d]

46. I'm sorry, were you expecting me to post his DNA sequence?

Either you believe the international media when they all agree on a story, or you are a CT nut.
There really isnt any middle ground.

Could they all be wrong? Sure, they could be.

I could also get hit by a meteorite as I leave my house, but I don't act on that slim chance, either.

[Lerkfish]

58. you said "validated it myself", that implies more than just using google

I'm sorry, but your inability to formulate cogent arguments and express yourself clearly are severely handicapping this discussion.

[rpgamerd00d]

60. I find the story Valid. Thus, the term "validated".

I can answer your questions, but I can't understand them for you.

I find the story valid. I find it valid because its widely reported around the world from many independent media organizations, and because I saw the photos and the videos the military released.

You're just pissed because valid != proven.
That's your problem, not mine.

[Lerkfish]

66. to "validate" means to verify. that's different from saying you find a

story "valid", but even so, your reasons for finding it "valid" are still insufficient. Merely having faith that someone is not lying to you is not finding something "valid", its finding something "believable".

To actually "validate" something means you have independently found evidence to support a claim. Obviously, you are not educated enough to understand the differences in the terminology.

Ironic that you refer to US as "idiots".

[The Straight Story]

84. So, do you believe Haditha story?

Just asking.

[Lerkfish]

88. nowadays, I'm skeptical of ALL reports.

even those which seem to fit with my world view.

Some I'm more skeptical of than others, for example I automatically assume this administration is lying, and work from there. If their version is proven correct, well and good. So far, I've never been wrong counting on this administration to lie.

being a skeptic and employing critical and analytical thinking when viewing the news of the day is the more prudent path to follow, IMHO.

sorry if that messed with your rhetorical trap, pal.

[Lerkfish]

89. and, it appears my skepticism has been prudent, read:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/iraq.al.zarqawi/index.html

the "official" story is morphing and spinning as we read it.

[madmunchie]

53. Do you mean to say that the US has now influence on any of the media sourc

es in the international community? Seeing as corporations own many of the media outlets and that these same corporations are multi international.... does it really have to be spelled out to you?

[rpgamerd00d]

56. Prove that ridiculous claim, or retract it.

I'm sick of all this CT bullshit.

[Lerkfish]

69. deleted

realized the caliber of my opponent. :)

[madmunchie]

79. Sadly enough it is not bullshit, what is even sadder though is the

vast number of people's unawareness of how our world really is working in these times.

[SodoffBush]

19. MSNBC's headline is pretty funny: He's realy really dead!

LOL

[AndyA]

2. Yes, I'd like to know that too. He looks pretty good for a dead man.

You'd almost think he fell asleep at the wheel and crashed his car instead of having multiple bombs dropped on him. How could this be possible?

[rpgamerd00d]

4. He does? (pic inside)

[951-Riverside]

6. After 2 500 lb bombs.... he looks damn good

I just read somewhere that he was handed over to iraqi authorities and died a short time later

[rpgamerd00d]

7. Really? He looks dead to me.

What did you expect? Cartoonish body parts flying all over and a fine red mist?

Unless the bombs detonated literally right next to him, his body would be intact, and he would die from shock, concussion, shrapnel and the collapse of the building around him.

[951-Riverside]

31. Actually he doesn't look dead

Your opinion is based on the report that he's dead but unless proven otherwise I have no choice but to believe he dead as well but how is another issue.

What did you expect? Cartoonish body parts flying all over and a fine red mist?

Obviously you're exaggerating beyond reason, first of all that is a photo not a video and based on what I've seen in the past IMO the shrapnel, fire and explosion would have left much more damage, from this photo it looks like someone smeared blood on his cheek.

Also there seems to be a lack of blood from his mouth, eyes, ears, etc AND one more question, when did this strike occur?

[sharp_stick]

13. Bombs don't nescessarily blow you to bits

The concussion would do you in if you were say, protected by a wall or two or you could be crushed by the wall falling on you.

[SodoffBush]

16. A 5 lb bomb wouldn't do the trick?

[madmunchie]

33. Have you seen trucks, hummers and all of the limbless soldiers

from IEDs? IEDs little bombs not 2 500 lb bombs

[alfredo]

78. That differs from what was said at the press conference.

They referred to the "body" being removed to a secure location.

http://today.reuters.com/tv/videoChannel.aspx?storyId=83b7bf645346caf0aef09db1cc2204e2e056da01

[Xenotime]

5. You are right....I'm willing to bet this is all a coverup.

1000 lbs of explosives would cause more dammage. Just look at photos when a soldier shoots a civilian in the street. There is much more injury to the body.

[joeunderdog]

81. Look...just because he has Ted Williams body doesn't mean.... nt

[jerry611]

9. It spreads debris for 500 yards

That is probably what killed him.

We probably didn't know exactly which house he was in. So we just bombed the area and by luck...we got him.

[ContraBass Black]

10. Probably not, but if they're dropped on the roof of your house,

It shouldn't be too hard.

[Lerkfish]

12. more important question: how did they have his original fingerprints to

compare the two?

[Virginia Dare]

25. Well, that's an easy one...

from his prior shoplifting conviction!

:rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

28. I'd wondered about that myself.

We probably got his fingerprints when he signed on with the US government. Wikipedia (yeah, I know) says he went to Afghanistan, but got there about the time the Russians left.

Hmmm, interesting:

According to MSNBC, the Pentagon had pushed to "take out" Zarqawi's operation at least three times prior to the invasion of Iraq, but had been vetoed by the National Security Council. The council's decision was made because they thought it would make it harder to convince other countries to join the US in a coalition against Iraq. "People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president’s policy of preemption against terrorists," said former National Security Council member Roger Cressey. Former CIA official Michael Scheuer told reporters that the Bush Administration "had Mr. Zarqawi in his sights for almost every day for a year before the invasion of Iraq and he didn't shoot because they were wining and dining the French in an effort to get them to assist us in the invasion of Iraq."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarqawi

It's always a good idea to check up on Wikipedia:

Bush turned down chances to kill Zarqawi: ex-CIA spy

A former top CIA spy says the United States deliberately turned down several opportunities to kill terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the lead-up to the Iraq war.

Mike Scheuer headed the CIA's bin Laden unit for six years before resigning in 2004.

He has told the ABC's Four Corners program the Bush administration had Zarqawi in its sights almost every day for a year.

www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1627197.htm

[warrens]

44. He was in jail in Jordan several times

They fingerprint you when they arrest you, even in Jordan.

[survivor999]

30. Perhaps if you were

Wolverine :)

[Lerkfish]

35. LOL! great post!

made me laugh!

[liberalmuse]

37. A bomb did not kill this man...

He was probably captured months/years ago, and has been in one of our torture prisons until an opportune time. Anyway, it is not for us to question, only to believe. If a terrorist passport can survive an explosive plane crash and the crushing weight of two towers completely intact, then why could al Zarqawi not survive two 500 pound bombs dropped directly on top of him?

[SodoffBush]

49. That I don't doubt.

Probably the same deal with Osama.

Anyway, I don't get into conspiracy theories. It's obvious that Bush needs boogiemen, and will trot them out as needed. It's all he's got to maintain appearances that he's protecting America.

[rocktivity]

83. Zarqawi's body looks too good to have been hit by 1000 pounds of bombs

Originally posted by Liberalmuse:
A bomb did not kill this man...

I agree--he's too intact to have been buried rubble of a pair of five hundred pound bombs. Unless he (and not the six others with him) was thrown clear. And his body was found before the second bomb dropped. Unless he was killed under other circumstances and kept warmed over for PR purposes. And no fair accusing Bush of deliberately passing up previous chances to kill Zarqawi so he could invade Iraq--did anyone ever accuse Clinton of deliberately passing up chances to kill Osama?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Mr_Spock]

39. As if they landed directly on top of their heads!

C'mon, is there any common sense to be found here today? Most people killed by bombs are not blown to pieces, they are hit by flying debris or crushed when the building they are in falls on them. People reconstruct faces etc all the time.

[lebkuchen]

42. These faces didn't need reconstruction--no bombs

but were still misidentified, by their own families!

http://www.14wfie.com/global/story.asp?s=4970780&ClientType=Printable

[Mr_Spock]

51. OMG, that's so sick of you...

So all people have identical fingerprints & identical faces?

That was an example of a tragedy that happened recently, how does that make your point - other than to show that you have no shame?

[lebkuchen]

55. I think you missed the point.

Better luck next time.

[ShaneGR]

41. Depends on what kind of bomb it was....

Concussion vs Incindeary...

For example, during Vietnam US B52 bombers commonly dropped Concussion style bombs. The effect is an intense blast wave, literally all of the oxygen is sucked from the air. US troops would commonly find VC regulars sitting in the exact same positions they were in when the bomb dropped with literally no visibile burn damage. Kind of like if someone hit you in the chest with a 600 pnd sledge hammer, you're knocked unconcious and unable to breath.

Anyways, I find these people who seem to be upset that he may be dead to be an embarresment. I opposed the initial invasion, I oppose the war now, but that doesn't mean I react negatively to the killing of a vicious terrorist.

[Sadie5]

45. From the minute I saw the death photo

It looked as if he has been cleaned up for the picture. How else would you explain a corpse going through having two bombs dropped on them and a cement house in ruins around you. I only say one scratch I think.

[Virginia Dare]

48. A friend of mine in the medical profession just said...

it looked to her like he'd been beat up. She said the mark on his cheek looked like he'd been hit with the butt-end of a rifle.

This is not a whack-job conspiracy theory leftist person saying this either. She's very moderate in her beliefs, and very pro-military.

[ShortnFiery]

86. After ALL the numerous lies that This Executive Branch has

shamelessly promoted to the American People, I'm saddened that many STILL want to believe these craven thugs.

Newsflash: Our democratic leaders are GUTLESS (with rare exception) and our Executive Branch only cares about War Profiteering and the needs of the upper 2 percent of the Investor Class.

I pray each day that The Average American Wage Slaves continue to WAKE UP and *demand* our civil liberties remain intact.

WAR IS WRONG! WE MUST STOP WAGING WARS ... IT'S JUST A DEMENTED NEO-CON PNAC PROPAGANDA PLOY. :PULE:

I, PERSONALLY DISOWN THIS B.S. WAR ... ON A CONCEPT THAT PROMOTES AUTHORITARIAN RULE ... NO, LET'S RETURN TO A DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC, NOT *ENCOURAGE* THIS BUDDING OLIGARCHY.

[rpgamerd00d]

57. here is the "uncleaned" version

[Virginia Dare]

72. I don't know what picture she was looking at...

but she specifically mentioned it was the blood that made her think that.

[lebkuchen]

64. Well, the timing itself is suspect, with the public's shock over Haditha

Haditha is forcing Bush to resort to straw-grasping. He has to reimage the military post-Haditha, make it look like it is doing a magnificent job--working tirelessly, day and night (unlike himself), blahdeblah, fighting for America's freedom. Did you hear the chimp's speech, praising the hell out of our armed forces?

That alone tells me that this al Zarkawi thing is all trumped up, in an effort to sugar-coat Haditha and resuscitate the good image of the US armed forces in the public's eye. Maybe Zarkawi really is dead, maybe he isn't. But what I know for sure is, it's an escapade made to order, from the WH.

I've been voting this story a 1/2 star every chance I get.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

59. Maybe. Depends entirely

on the details.

Bombs don't vaporize everything they harm.

If it dropped on your head, nothing would be left to identify as human, let alone fingerprints.

If it dropped through a 3 story home into the basement and detonated against concrete basement walls, while you were on the top floor next to a window, sure. Theyd fine you a few hundred feet away with organ damage.

depends on the details of which we are not privy (even if we think we are)

[Minnesota Libra]

63. The remains of the building showed part of the building was underground...

......so it's very possible someone survived.

[yurbud]

65. depends on if you find the fingers.

[yurbud]

73. Remember Uday and Squashy? People doubted so Bush had a bone pulled

to show metal plate in Uday's leg.

Probably come to that here.

[ShaneGR]

80. Actually, the bombs used were a GBU-12 and a GBU-38....

The GBU-12 is indeed a 500 lb bomb, but it's a concussion bomb not an incindeary. The other bomb, the GBU-38 is a lightweight bomb, about 200lbs, also a concussive bomb. These weapons, particularly the new 38, are designed for maximum concussion of air within a small diamater. Both are laser guided. Neither would necessarily cause any burns or evident damage unless the target was within a short distance of their impact (try 10 feet).

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=2219&eeid=4972586&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt

[blatherman]

82. Incorrect info on the bombs...

GBU-12 and GBU-38 are both 500# bombs. In fact, both use the same warhead. GBU-12 is laser guided. GBU-38 is GPS aided...not laser guided. The warhead is a plain jane blast/frab weapon. Some blast, lots of frag. True statement about burn damage...