Roger Ebert: I am a liberal, but I do not intend this as a...

[LaPera]

review reflecting any kind of politics. It reflects the truth as I understand it, and it represents, I believe, agreement among the world's experts.


An Inconvenient Truth

I want to write this review so every reader will begin it and finish it.

Global warming is real.

It is caused by human activity.

Mankind and its governments must begin immediate action to halt and reverse it.

If we do nothing, in about 10 years the planet may reach a "tipping point" and begin a slide toward destruction of our civilization and most of the other species on this planet.

After that point is reached, it would be too late for any action.

These facts are stated by Al Gore in the documentary "An Inconvenient Truth." Forget he ever ran for office. Consider him a concerned man speaking out on the approaching crisis. "There is no controversy about these facts," he says in the film. "Out of 925 recent articles in peer-review scientific journals about global warming, there was no disagreement. Zero."

He stands on a stage before a vast screen, in front of an audience. The documentary is based on a speech he has been developing for six years, and is supported by dramatic visuals. He shows the famous photograph "Earthrise," taken from space by the first American astronauts. Then he shows a series of later space photographs, clearly indicating that glaciers and lakes are shrinking, snows are melting, shorelines are retreating.

He provides statistics: The 10 warmest years in history were in the last 14 years. Last year South America experienced its first hurricane. Japan and the Pacific are setting records for typhoons. Hurricane Katrina passed over Florida, doubled back over the Gulf, picked up strength from unusually warm Gulf waters, and went from Category 3 to Category 5. There are changes in the Gulf Stream and the jet stream. Cores of polar ice show that carbon dioxide is much, much higher than ever before in a quarter of a million years. It was once thought that such things went in cycles. Gore stands in front of a graph showing the ups and downs of carbon dioxide over the centuries. Yes, there is a cyclical pattern. Then, in recent years, the graph turns up and keeps going up, higher and higher, off the chart.

The primary man-made cause of global warming is the burning of fossil fuels. We are taking energy stored over hundreds of millions of years in the form of coal, gas and oil, and releasing it suddenly. This causes global warming, and there is a pass-along effect. Since glaciers and snow reflect sunlight but sea water absorbs it, the more the ice melts, the more of the sun's energy is retained by the sea.

(Please read the rest of Ebert's excellent review)

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060601/REVIEWS/60517002/-1/email_headlines

[saltpoint]

1. Ebert's ok in my book. Good writer, good politics.

[LaPera]

2. Only Ebert can write the perfect testimonial for this important film.

[dysfunctional press]

3. face it folks- things aren't going to change in time to avert disaster

in the words of steve buscemi in "armageddon": "...it's time to embrace the horror."

not enough people are going to believe the evidence until it's too late to do anything about it- and it might even be too late already.

i don't intend to go out of my way to add to the problem, and i'll even do my part in pretending that we can really make a difference- even though we really won't.

there is one thing to look forward to in all this- we'll get to see mother nature put on some good shows, as she goes about scouring us off her skin.

hope you enjoy the show- you paid for it...
:popcorn:

[LaPera]

4. A sad, but real & excellently put post... and your so right...

"we'll get to see mother nature put on some good shows, as she goes about scouring us off her skin."

I always thought it was going to be nuclear war (and that also looks to be very soon) that would doom our species in my time...But it looks like its going to be a close race with mother nature.

:cry:

[ElboRuum]

5. We don't need majorities to realize the truth...

...in order to do something about it.

If our society left everything to the stubborn and often ignorant majority we would never have:

1) Entered WWII and defeated the Axis
2) Orbited the earth let alone gone to the moon
3) Saw the rise of what we now call modern music (rock, rap, hip-hop, etc.)
4) Tried to pass a civil rights amendment
5) Passed environmental measures to close the ozone hole

If our society leaves everything to those very same, we end up staying still, and in fact regressing. Everything that this country finds valuable that has come to pass over its history has always been led by a minority of very concerned people.

[dysfunctional press]

15. the minority doesn't stand a chance on this one.

by the time enough people realize what the problem is, it'll be too late.

as i said, there are already a lot of scientists who believe we've already crossed the point of no return.

and without the majority of the earth's population on board, it's going to be over, in an unstoppable way.

[ElboRuum]

19. Sorry...

I believe the second you say that things are already beyond repair, they are, whether or not the reality matches the presumption. The minority never stands a chance, not just in this case. When they succeed, we are left to wonder how they managed.

Think of it this way...

1) Consumers pollute.
2) Companies that make consumer products that pollute. They also pollute themselves.
3) Companies respond to market pressure, because it their reason for being is to turn a profit.
4) Most consumers ARE a hell of a lot more concerned about the environment than our leadership would have us believe. Even the biggest environmental slob wouldn't mind getting a few extra miles-per-gallon, especially in the $3 a gallon age.

Thus, if there is a market segment interested in, say, greater mileage and alternative fuels (there is), the market will respond to it. Where do you think all of these hybrid models are coming from? You give a person a reason to buy something green with more than just being green for its own sake, you just made it profitable, companies will chase it, and the energy companies will either be forced to invest in other forms of energy because their profits from oil will sag, OR, they'll simply charge more for their product, driving people towards alternatives to pure gasoline driven vehicles.

This market segment doesn't need to be the majority to make this happen. We don't need the buy-in of the majority because they'll come along soon anyway through the mere dry facts of personal economics. If a minority of people give the car manufacturers and all other pollutionary enablers reason to believe that they stand to make a profit from green technology, they'll provide it.

The 90's proved that environmental concern is good business. Even the selfish and unconcerned notice when there are fewer bills in their pocket. To motivate, sometimes you just need to speak to people in terms they understand.

[dysfunctional press]

23. the economics of it takes time...

time the planet just doesn't have.

i've heard it quoted several times that over the next 10 years, china alone is predicted to put more CO2 into the atmosphere than has already been put into the atmosphere by humans since the start of the industrial revolution.

and that's just china.

even if we stopped ALL fossil fuel usage TOMORROW, it would take something like 40-50 years before climate change started reversing- and you can bet the farm that we aren't going to be stopping anytime soon. Maybe...if either the greenland or west antarctic ice sheets were to slip into the sea, and raise ocean levels 20+ feet, peopel might start to take notice.

as it is, we've got no kids whose future i'd have to worry about, and a big screen tv with CNN...i'm ready to watch as things begin to fall apart.
:popcorn:

[bigmonkey]

25. A perfectly positioned response.

"All I care about is my tv and my snacks."

[dysfunctional press]

29. that's not all i care about...

i forgot to mention my comfy chair.

[ElboRuum]

53. Not a very informed view...

Every step we take now LENGTHENS the time we have. Even small efforts matter.

And I thought I was a disaffected nihilist... you, my friend, take the taco. :eyes:

Good luck with that whole couch potato thing...

[CanSocDem]

27. Good one...!!

"1) Consumers pollute.
2) Companies that make consumer products that pollute."

ergo, capitalism causes global warming.

[ElboRuum]

No, good one right back atcha...

1) Consumers pollute.
2) Companies that make consumer products that pollute. They also pollute themselves.
3) Companies respond to market pressure, because it their reason for being is to turn a profit.
4) Most consumers ARE a hell of a lot more concerned about the environment than our leadership would have us believe. Even the biggest environmental slob wouldn't mind getting a few extra miles-per-gallon, especially in the $3 a gallon age.

ergo, capitalism can solve it as well.

[Tactical Progressive]

69. The "free-market" is comin' ta save us!

Is that Gary Cooper in the town square at high noon? No! It's the free market. Yaaayyyyy!

[ElboRuum]

71. Your cynicism is droll...

I suppose you expect our angelic government to start "crackin' down on them pah-lootin' industries with reggilations?"

BWA. HA. HA.

Consumers are going to be the ones who clean up the environment through market pressures. Government and industry are on the same page: make a buck. Say what you want about capitalism, but if you start learning how to use it to your advantage instead of bagging on it, you'll understand how giving the consumer a reason to demand green is the only way you'll get the otherwise environmentally selfish to buy in. Talk to them in terms that matter to them.

Waiting for an enviro-regime to regulate the shit out of polluting industries and invest tax dollars toward the rapid development of alt energy is the real pipe dream.

[Ganja Ninja]

17. I agree I think we're already past the tipping point.

Global warming is accelerating. Greenhouse gas emissions are going up every year. We needed to start 10 years ago to reverse the trend. As it is we haven't even begun to start the process that could eventually reverse the trend.

One day a major American city like Miami will be flooded by the combination of only a high tide and a stiff wind.
One day an exceptionally warm rain storm will hit Greenland or Antarctica and sea levels will rise by several inches in less than a month.

As more and more ice melts there's less and less of it to melt. Just like a beer cooler the less ice there is the cooler the faster it gets warm.

Eventually temporary flooding will become permanent flooding. No amount of effort will be able to save some of the low lying areas.

It will happen and the only question is how soon

[dysfunctional press]

18. i want dramatic change in my lifetime.

call me selfish, but i just love a good show of force by nature.

miami's days are numbered.

[Ganja Ninja]

20. I've seen Gore's presentation that this film is based on.

There's a whole lot more than Miami that will be lost. It's pretty scary when you think of all the people that will be displaced. Anyone who is in their 20's or younger will almost certainly see it. People that are 50 years old or older may live long enough to see it themselves if the predictions in the film are too conservative. In about 20 to 25 years the shit starts to hit the fan. How fast it progresses from there depends on what happens between now and then.

[dysfunctional press]

22. i'm hoping it happens A LOT quicker than they expect.

i'm 45, and i don't want to miss out on the theatre.

[bigmonkey]

26. OK.

You're selfish. Incredibly, evangelistically selfish.

[dysfunctional press]

28. oh, well...

i guess that makes me just as human as everyone else :hi:

[bigmonkey]

33. No.

Other folks are not cynically trying to promote selfishness and detachment about these issues (except Republicans, that is.) You have over 1600 posts since joining at the beginning of this year. You may be a troll. You might not. But your behavior is still very strange and selfish.

[dysfunctional press]

34. oh well...

i guess it kinda sucks then, living in a free and open society where everyone is free to express themselves and their opinions, huh?

[bigmonkey]

39. No, it doesn't.

You and I get to have this discussion. What I'm complaining about with posts like your #3 (I misidentified it as #5, I think), is that you are trying to use discouragement to stifle and disparage productive action. You sure are energized about defending your right to speak for someone who pretends that this is all useless. Why would anyone be so energetic about doing that?

[dysfunctional press]

41. because it is useless.

but as a i said- if people want to go green now, as a way of feeling good about themselves, that's their perogative- but pretending that they're "saving the planet" is just that- pretend.

[bigmonkey]

44. You just won't give up with the unsupported, definitive assertions.

This is precisely the arrogance of certainty that I was referring to. I have to conclude that you are intent on sabotaging this kind of discussion. I would think that you'd have to pay a person quite a bit to get them to do this so consistently and energetically. At least I've kept you busy, so that you couldn't disrupt other threads of this type.

[dysfunctional press]

48. there are other threads of this type...?

thanks for the heads-up- i've got some looking and sabotaging to do...

[conflictgirl]

76. So if you were on a boat with a major leak in it and couldn't swim

Would you try to patch the hole, even if the odds of succeeding weren't good? Or would you just figure it was too late to fix it and try to enjoy whatever time you had left?

I don't really understand the idea that since we're already screwed, there's no point in trying. I don't think it's about whether or not my efforts will succeed. It's that I don't want to contribute to the problem by thinking things are hopeless. For every person who assumes it's too late to do anything, when you combine them together that further decreases the odds of turning things around.

[shadowknows69]

32. People have been screaming this for decades

now we have ten years left you really think anyone is going to listen in time? not while there is money to be made from shitting where we sleep. If there's an encylopedia galactica out there in the vast reaches of infinity I shudder to think what the article on homo sapiens would read. "Humans-Good idea, didn't go anywhere."

[shadowknows69]

30. Yep, our Mother is going to give us

the mother of all spankings. Kids who don't clean their rooms get punished.

[gauguin57]

6. I love these lines from the review ...

"... In 39 years, I have never written these words in a movie review, but here they are: You owe it to yourself to see this film. If you do not, and you have grandchildren, you should explain to them why you decided not to.

"Am I acting as an advocate in this review? Yes, I am. I believe that to be "impartial" and "balanced" on global warming means one must take a position like Gore's. There is no other view that can be defended. ..."

[patricia92243]

7. Is this just the same presentation Gore has made on C-Span and FSTV?

I have seen it several times. I was looking forward to the movie,but if it is just the same thing again..... Has anybody else seen the TV presentation and then seen the movie? Are they the same thing?

It is not in my city until the end of the month, but I would like to know ahead of time.

Thanks

[NYCGirl]

8. It has parts of the presentation but the film is much more. NT

[bigmonkey]

9. About posts 4 and 5.

(This is a rant. I'm desperate, I don't usually get this way.)

I've been trying to understand what it is about pronouncements like this that makes me angry. I understand that the posters may be sincere, I would agree they certainly are entitled to say what they like, and they may even think that they are advancing the discussion by being "more honest" than folks who don't make such statements. They may feel relieved that finally they have a place to vent.
So, that said, I think I've found what makes me angry: it's the colossal arrogance. These are complicated phenomena, there are billions of people involved, there are folks who have spent entire lifetimes studying this situation in detail, many, many people are trying very hard to fix this, and yet none of that matters to these posters. Here's the problem - they can't possibly know enough to be so certain about this, certain that there is nothing but failure and decay and destruction ahead. Only an infallible prophet could, and I've never heard of such a thing really existing, and I'm no hardheaded atheist. So, I will ask them directly: Could you please consider a little humility? You are literally dismissing the entire human race with a wave of your (rhetorical) hand!
There are a lot of people, myself included, who are made much less effective the more we hear these imperious (yes, imperious) pronouncements of doom. You imply that you know human nature, but you don't seem to realize you have your thumb on the scale - you are actively making those you profess to have common cause with wither in their determination. Since these are anonymous fora we only know you through your posts, in the main, but posts like this are precisely the kind of discouragement that disruptive, but professional-grade, wingnuts would make - can we consider you such? Or, if you aren't deliberately disrupting, you could mitigate the effect you are having by posting with some sort of disclaimer, something like a wail_on/wail_off statement, but no, you have to elevate yourself by pretending that your statements are definitive.
Help us. You say you are on our side. Stop it.

(End of rant.)

[LaPera]

10. No "definitives" were spoken as gospel...That's for each to decide...

for themselves, in a forum of many ideas, truth's and bullshit!!! How my visions as I see them(or it)while agreeing with the previous poster, was taken by me, as his thoughts and nothing more. I could of just as easily disagreed, However, I didn't, and applauded his frankness & honesty...It's not going to affect mine or anyone else's world, except, perhaps, yours...To be perfectly honest I'm sick of people who want only a cute positive on every aspect of their being & life and the future, no reality and facts allowed...What a fine line one must walk to please you...Do I have that power to fuck with your mind and the humans race as a whole? I don't think so. I don't mean to be cold, heartless nor an asshole...but you pointed your finger at me, it's your problem to deal with...I simply gave my opinion as many here do, I'm truly sorry I offended you...I had no idea there was only a censored philosophy that you see as tasteful, allowed...We are ALL quite different. My thoughts and feelings have absolutely no, none, zero, definitive outcome what so ever...

This from my own personal feelings, from 50 years of thought, caring, perception and dedication to the political & environmental world around me...nothing more. Because I can't offer nothing more than my feelings from what I see, seen, analyze and the very obvious absolutes...like them or not...I particularly don't. However, I'm not going to pretend I don't see what to me is quite an evolution of stupidity and greed of progression...that to me is inevitable because all humans are inherit to greed, granted, each to different degrees, including you...I gave my opinion...who's to say your dedication will bring the desired results & outcome we ALL so desperate want to achieve. Does what I say or feel really have any impact to any-one's initiative, hopes and dreams. No! In so much as unlike you I refuse to hide my head in the sand.

For you to assume that I have given up, or will not continue to keep trying and working towards real solutions to the day I die (and indeed, I am quite sure how) is clearly misconstrued and a misinterpretation on your part. I could of easily said your "rant" was full of false hope, deception and misleading with no basis of fact...But I wouldn't be so crude as to indulge or belittle your beliefs & feelings, I would only offer you mine.

I do try to give every effort possible, as I am mentally and physically capable of doing and will continue to do so, along with my sincerest hopes, wishes & dreams...which are worth about as much as mine or yours predictions!

[dysfunctional press]

16. what i would consider colossal arrogance-

thinking that you have the right to tell others how, when, and in what manner to utilize their 1st amendment rights.

that, and thinking that a short post on an insignifigant(in the grand scheme of things) webboard is going to change the world.

[bigmonkey]

21. In your previous posts you said:

#3 - "face it folks- things aren't going to change in time to avert disaster
in the words of steve buscemi in "armageddon": "...it's time to embrace the horror."
#15 - "the minority doesn't stand a chance on this one.
by the time enough people realize what the problem is, it'll be too late."

Can you really maintain that these statements are not hortatory? You are not telling folks what to think, or how to behave?

Still, I will admit it's a consistent perspective you have - all is lost, nothing matters, all talk is useless, action is just
pretending, others will eventually realize that I am right.

You're concealing your essential human decency under a heavy, dark cloud, and you want others to join you, that's what I see. And say, with my First Amendment rights.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigmonkey]

36. And neither am I jeering at anyone trying to mitigate this disaster.

I leave that for the "Me first" type of jerks. I would never say you had anything in common with them. You can consider that on your own.

[dysfunctional press]

38. the time for "mitigating this disaster" is long past...

and everyone that's ever driven a car or lived the consumer lifestyle is equally guilty.

and if some people want to feel good about themselves for jumping on the bandwagon at the last minute- that's their perogative.

lots of people have whistled past the graveyard their entire lives- why should they stop now?

[bigmonkey]

40. Still with the pronouncements.

What is up with you? You can't possibly be knowlegable enough to be sure of this.

[dysfunctional press]

42. i'm knowledable enough to have read a lot on the subject...

and i agree with those who admit that we've most likely already passed the point of no return.
and it was those of us living the "american dream" that helped put us over the top...

:hi:
thanks, folks!

[bigmonkey]

47. How handy a conclusion.

Now you can sit in your comfy chair, with your snacks, and watch the tv (your chararcterization of yourself, not mine) and watch the destruction of civilization. And, at the same time, think that you're so smart that you're above it all, it's pointless to lift a finger, and jeer at anyone who wants to try to help. Are you really proud of taking this position?

[dysfunctional press]

51. am i proud of being a realist?

yes.

just as proud as those people who would have others waste their time and energies for the sole purpose of a false sense of satisfaction re: saving the planet.

[bigmonkey]

54. You're not a realist.

You're just calling yourself that. The reality is that you can't possibly know whether or how this disaster will unfold, and so disparaging efforts to help is self-indulgent, not to say self-destructive. Where is the safe place you'll be watching tv from?

I think we're all in this together, whether folks like you think so or not.

[dysfunctional press]

62. we were together in getting things to go to hell.

and just as you say that i can't possibly know whether or how this disaster will unfold- neither can the people who do/advocate a more "green" lifestyle know that anything they're doing will bring about their desired results- it's ALL a crapshoot.
and since it's a free country, we're all entitled to pursue our idea of happiness, within the bounds of the law.
i intend to pursue my happiness in my manner- you're free to pursue it in yours.

and even though they aren't covered by our constitution, you can bet that the other countries in the world will be pursuing their happiness as well. and since the u.s. has spent many decades using 25% of the world's resources with about 5% of the population- how can we begrudge the developing nations their shot at using up resources and polluting the environment to pursue their happiness- at the same rate that we did for lo so many years?

embrace the horror- it's coming, and there's not a damn thing we'll (or you'll) be able to do about it.

[bigmonkey]

66. Don't try to make me complicit in your despair.

It's not all a crapshoot. Lord, you really are portraying yourself as a very lazy thinker, I hope that's incorrect. You argue like a Republican. You may be one, visiting the sensible humans over here, and enjoying yourself by spreading a gospel of despair and sarcasm. I reiterate my question, where is the safe place you'll be watching TV from? Why the reveling in destruction?

[bigmonkey]

67. Does this title mean that your nihilism actually springs from guilt?

Under the bravado, you actually care? You could at least be brave about it, and stop hiding in the TV.

[ElboRuum]

55. Realist?

Only a small minority of climatologists believe that we've reached the point of no return. Just say you don't care. It's a lot more honest than claiming you're a realist about this.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigmonkey]

45. You are responding to my posts.

With energy. Look in the mirror yourself. You are the one who says this all is just blather, not me.

[LaPera]

46. What are you talking about? Are you just trying to increase your posts?

I wasn't the one crying like a five year old over someones opinion...

[bigmonkey]

49. My last response.

Thought I was replying to QuestionAll. Didn't see you jump in.
I just see this vocal, assertive despair as an obstacle, and I want to confront it. I _don't_ see this just as talk.

[dysfunctional press]

52. it's not just talk...

there's typing involved too.

[bigmonkey]

58. This is a conversation.

People can be convinced of things. Minds can change. What do you think, it's just "everybody say what they think", and then on to the next topic? That's just distributed advertising, not conversation. I don't have a problem being affected by someone else's statement, but you do, evidently. Why?
And I'm not the pope, I deny that completely.

[Lilith Velkor]

74. Don't you realize that nihilism causes global warming?

Gosh, if only all those environmental doomsayers hadn't been shouted down and marginalized a generation ago, we wouldn't be in this mess! :sarcasm:

[bigmonkey]

84. Would it make you mad if I agreed with you?

I do, at least partially. A lot of people who would otherwise have been sympathetic were too lazy to think this kind of thing through 30 years ago. In addition to those, you also have the right-wing crazies and the paid-for campaigns that brought the science into question in the public mind. The environmental damage has unfolded pretty much as predicted, sometimes a little slower, sometimes not so visible from the U.S. Time for a rethink?

[Lilith Velkor]

86. No, but I will point out

That Democratic Underground has rules regarding civility, specifically:

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

Do not accuse entire groups of people on Democratic Underground of being conservative disruptors, or post messages which spread this type of suspicion.

Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member.

If you do not like someone, please be aware that you have the option of putting that person on your ignore list. Just click the ignore icon on one of their posts.

*******

I would suggest that taking these rules under advisement would make this board more enjoyable, and encourage you to do so. Goodnight.

[Iowa]

35. Wait a minute....

You said:

"About posts 4 and 5.... There are a lot of people, myself included, who are made much less effective the more we hear these imperious (yes, imperious) pronouncements of doom."


Doom? I think you had better go back and read post #5 again. Did you read ElboRuumm's comments before maligning his post? He lays out reasons for hope. He makes no "pronouncements of doom".

[bigmonkey]

37. I apologize. You are correct.

I meant 3 and 4. These fora move so fast. The posts by QuestionAll and LaPera at the top. Sorry, ElboRuumm. Mea culpa.

[ElboRuum]

61. No problem... n/t

[Mr_Spock]

50. Thanks for that thought-provoking rant

I am getting a little tired of the doom and gloomers here as well (you watch, this phrase will be used on O'Reily tomorrow). It is all too easy for people to pile on and take the rhetoric to it's most extreme, but what does this actually accomplish? For the converted, it's fun; for those on the margins, it likely will not have the desired effect and may turn many off to the issue. I think you hit on something here - these folks are secretly like the end-timers on the right - they want to see an apocalypse occur to once and for all prove that the left was correct. Of course, the far right religious endtimer nuts will claim the same.

This is a ridiculous paradigm and most people don't even see it.

[bigmonkey]

56. I've got a simple aim here.

I'm just tired of letting the nihilists have the field uncontested. We may come through this, albeit it's unlikely we'll come through unscathed. But to give up, that's just foolish.

[Mr_Spock]

57. Thats why I go out of my way to praise the common sense folks

who dare to take on the tin-foil hatters (are they like mad-hatters?). A lot of people will read your post and nod - "glad someone is making some sense here and trying to see the big picture" and move on, not wanting to get flamed for agreeing with you.

Sometimes I just can't take it any more. I get a lot of "atta boy" PM's from folks when I bother to take on the nihilists, I only wish more people would chip in and help us add a little balance to some of these topics.

[bigmonkey]

59. Should we start an "Anti-Nihilsts Club?"

I'm quite serious. What could we do? For some reason, I'm energized about this. I'm sick of nihilism being the last word, and I'm actually suspecting that, at least some of the time, these might be folks who have an agenda of discouragement.

[Mr_Spock]

60. I'll sign up

I'm starting to make lists of the haters and tin-foil hat nihilists. I think I will make a positive list of those who fight the good fight and who at least try to apply a little common sense & logic before spouting off. I mean, I have bad days for sure, I'm not perfect, but when someone slaps me in the face and says "snap out of it", I usually acknowledge I'm having a bad day and sometimes will even thank them for yelling at me. I can't stand people who seem to be having a "bad life" and who can't stop telling us how we're all gonna die any day now if we don't do what they think is the solution. That's just emotional blackmail and I'm effing sick of it. I love the "your violating my first amendment rights" argument that you get when you challenge many of these folks. I get that one often too. As if the 1st amendment says that nobody can challenge another persons assertments :eyes: - makes me sick to my stomach.

Consider me an ally - I hope we don't disagree on too many issues :rofl:

[bigmonkey]

64. Hmm.

Lists. Problematic in some contexts, but might be helpful here.

I think it unlikely we disagree on too many things. Thanks for the background on the nihilism lay-of-the-land from your perspective. The confirmation is nice.

I think that I understand now why the Romans taught Rhetoric. I don't admire the Romans much, they were bloodthirsty and cruel, but the fact that they felt that the upper classes needed Rhetoric instruction to me shows that they may have been running into some of the same crazy, but superficially logical, kinds of argumentation that we see today. They could rule, and rape, much of the world and not cause the end of human civilization, but I think that will no longer fly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. Expect a lot more of it.

For years they said that there's no such thing as global warming and now that it's proven there is they're going to switch to "well it's too late to doing anything about it."

Anything to keep from admitting they were wrong and taking responsibility.

[bigmonkey]

70. It's actually a widespread pattern.

Let me share it with you. Let's say Mr. Unscrupulo has agreed to something, but he has no intention of doing it. One strategy he may employ is in three stages:

1) All inquiries about the agreement are premature. "It's too early, I'm working on it, stop bothering me."
2) "Can't you see I'm busy right now? I don't have time to talk about it." Emergencies may be trumped up, or exaggerated, to get this to seem plausible.
3) "It's too late, it's no longer possible. Why are you holding on to the past? Deal with it."

You're right, they've already used up the first two. Luckily for those trying to actually do something, all three stages are lies. That doesn't mean that we're in the clear, but it does mean that once we realize Mr. Unscrupulo is completely unreliable, something can actually get done. It's the waiting on Mr. Unscruplo's response that gives his strategy its power.

(edited for missing word in second sentence)

[ComerPerro]

11. Its funny, because even conservatives who are forced to admit it is real

still won't say it is caused (or at least sped up) by man.


They just seem to be incapable of admitting to themselves that corporations might be hurting our environment.

In their minds, large corporations can do no wrong.

After all, if Global Warming were indeed caused by man and pollution, the "Free Market" would correct this, right?

[supernova]

12. In conservos' minds institutions

of any stripe (excepting the gov't, oddly) can do no wrong. It's a blind faith in organizations that is the conservatives' downfall.

[ComerPerro]

14. and now, even the governent can do now wrong

[Cha]

13. Kick for

reading later!

[earth mom]

24. Recommended-Thanks for posting-this is too damn important to ignore!

p.s. reTHUGlicans can't handle the truth about the very real and cold hard fact of global warming and will expose themselves on this issue because it has the potential to hurt their stock portfolio. :eyes:

[LaPera]

63. I had to...And thank you for your insight to greed as the cause!

You are correct!

[IronLionZion]

65. Is this ever coming to mainstream theaters?

ARGH! I want to see this.

The first I heard of it, was a preview for it in a mainstream theater when I went to see The Sentinel.

[Rainscents]

72. Yes... It's coming to theater where I live, next Friday!!!

I can't wait to see it!

[Danocrat]

73. I agree with QuestionAll whole-heartedly

It's time to sit back and watch the show and have a good laugh. Gore would have been the perfect president for the time period and people like us tried to warn you of what would happen. I started to warn people back in the Reagan era but more adamantly, in 2000, when some of us saw the way things were going. And I kept it up too but when I told you it was time to get out the guns and start a march to DC, you deleted my posts here. That's why I don't post here anymore.

You brought it on yourselves and you'll probably delete this post too but I don't care. You were warned of what would happen and did nothing and people like me are tired of trying and have nothing to look forward to anymore after the chaos reigns except to say, "I told you so" to the people that laughed at us and deleted our posts.

Now it will only accelerate from here on in. A Bush clone will be appointed by the Rove/Cheney/Diebold mechanism and all you will have is death and destruction to look forward to. Do you get it now--it's over, it has been over for a few years now. Thanks for playing and have a nice day.

[Danocrat]

75. Well

Aren't you going to delete my post? What's changed from a few years ago?

[bigmonkey]

81. So, I'll ask you too.

Where is the safe place you're going to watch this on the TV? Don't you have children, or nephews, or nieces, or some investment in the future? You say "You brought it on yourselves", so you're implying that you've known all along that this would happen. Now, now that more and more people will actually be receptive to the message, this is the time to quit and dedicate the rest of your life to snarkiness? What happened in your life to make you so bitter that you are willing to wave genocide onto the earth?

To paraphrase the song, quit holding out and re-join the human race for a while. By your own admission you have nothing but the TV left. Stop sabotaging other people's efforts.

[Danocrat]

87. A safe place? Are you kidding me?

My, my , my , where do I start?

First of all, anybody could have seen what was going to happen. All you had to do was read the quite legitimate PNAC documents at the time. But people like me tried to tell you about them and you laughed, we lost all our friends and family because of our outrage, and were labeled conspiracy theorists.

Whem Bush picked Cheney as VP. Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense, didn't you even think for one minute that something was wrong? When he nominated losing candidates to his cabinet like Ashcroft and Spnecer Abraham, and they were confirmed, didn't you think that the world had totally gone askew? Well the joke is on you because it has all come home to roost now. Even when this Administration put the authors of the PNAC documents into power, into the Administration, you still laughed. Is it any wonder we, the people that tried to warn you, did go away to wait for this day?

Yes, I have neices and nephews. And a lot of them voted for bush. They laugh at me also. What can I say? I'm the crazy conspiracy theorist uncle. Now just live with the world your silence has created. That's all you have to do now--while I laugh at you.

Am I insane? Wouldn't you be by now?

[bigmonkey]

88. I sympathize, so much you wouldn't believe it.

You're blaming me, but I was with you on all that stuff. When the Iraq war started, I had just arrived in Japan to visit a friend. He and I argued the whole time I was there. He kept saying things like "Saddam had to go, or that Bush couldn't really be that bad, that the PNAC documents didn't really say that, and so forth." He's not a winger, but he was snowed by the regular media portrayal of this insane misrule.

But, he's since apologized to me, and now knows better. I agree with you, I felt also that anybody could have seen this coming. It seemed to me that the vote for the Iraq war was a disaster the minute it happened, and I couldn't believe that the people in Washington could be so gullible.

I wasn't silent. Maybe people think of me as the crazy conspiracist uncle too. There's not a single thing you mention that I didn't agonize over, talk about (even with strangers sometimes), and try to convince people to pay attention to. Demonstrations. Letters. Meetings. Groups. I didn't laugh, except to make the info I was carrying a little easier for others to swallow. Remember, the Bushies were trying to minimize our effect the whole time. I put to you that part of the feeling you have that people were silent is the effect of their media policies, and so not necessarily reality-based.

But here's the crucial point: you're still here. I'm still here. We can still make a difference, so we should keep trying. _Because_ people like you and me were speaking out back then, now lots more people are receptive, and the formerly receptive are active or fed up. The fruit of those efforts was delayed, and diffused, but here it is. This is not the time to give up, and I'm just asking you, if you can't get out of despair, at least stop pushing it on others.

Like Howard Dean says, it feels better to fight and lose than not to fight and give up. Another maxim that has kept me going, although I am not a violent guy in any way, is: "You can't just roll over and die, you have to _make_ them kill you." (Like I said, I take it metaphorically.) This struggle is one of attrition, like the movement against the war in Vietnam. Each action doesn't do much by itself, but they build over time. These are tragic times, but something good may spring from them later, if we can survive. So even just making survival more likely is a worthwhile effort. We have to be willing to stay in the way. They want you to give up, don't give them what they want.

[Deja Q]

77. 30 years people have talked... so why has nothing major been done?

Money.

Can't see beyond money.

[Danocrat]

78. Maybe

it is time for capitalism to end then. Ever since Reagan introduced greed into capitalism, it took a turn for the worse. Well that and favoring corporations by deregulating (and allowing them to make government policy.)

[NYCGirl]

79. We can have both capitalism and a healthy planet. The two are not

mutually exclusive. It will take work and political will, which, as Al Gore says, "is a renewable resource."

[bigmonkey]

83. I think we can have the positives of capitalism.

But human civilization should be for humans, not for the sake of imaginary people like Halliburton and Exxon.

[high density]

80. It sounds like a great film

What's it going to take for it to move out of independent theaters?!?!

The theater list PDFs at the movie's website seems to be FUBAR at the moment, too.

[Cha]

82. SWEET!

"When I said I was going to a press screening of "An Inconvenient Truth," a friend said, "Al Gore talking about the environment! Bor...ing!" This is not a boring film. The director, Davis Guggenheim, uses words, images and Gore's concise litany of facts to build a film that is fascinating and relentless. In 39 years, I have never written these words in a movie review, but here they are: You owe it to yourself to see this film. If you do not, and you have grandchildren, you should explain to them why you decided not to."

Much more better than what frank rich had to say about Gore.

Roger Ebert's opinion I value.

[Maven]

85. Thanks for posting, and for reminding me to see this movie

I haven't had time, I'm sorry to say. But it sounds like a perfect choice for a Sat. matinee. ;)

Edit: rec

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

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