Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'

[The Straight Story]

Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'

POSTED: 5:09 pm EDT June 19, 2006
UPDATED: 7:11 pm EDT June 19, 2006

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The divine Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.

Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.

http://www.local6.com/family/9393768/detail.html

[evlbstrd]

1. How about Rock, Paper, Scissors?

[ComerPerro]

3. was wondering that myself

[rosesaylavee]

4. HA

:rofl:

[Roland99]

21. They could join the USARPS!

http://www.usarps.com/site/index.php


I watched that on A&E even! :)

[slackmaster]

23. Glad to know I'm not the only one with a mind that twisted

I was raised Presbyterian. Now I'm just Presbyopic.

[Burma Jones]

24. As an Ordained Presbyterian Ruling Elder

Long ago lapsed into -shudder- secular humanism, I must say that was the first thing I thought of.......

[woo me with science]

27. BWAH! Excellent! nt

[guinivere]

28. hee hee

Will they have to rewrite all the hymns and prayers?

[ComerPerro]

2. And since liberals aer so godless and anti-religion, conservatieves

have no one to blame this on but themselves.

[rosesaylavee]

8. Are Presbyterians considered liberal as a group?

I thought they were fairly conservative.

edit for spelling

[ComerPerro]

9. Not sure, but my point was mainly

"Hey, conservatives complain that liberals are godless, so any changes within the church can't be blamed on us since we don't go"

[rosesaylavee]

16. I bet there are some Presybterians here

I am a Unitarian Universalist so this is a mute issue with me personally. UUs just aren't into that trinitarian thing. We lost that argument, oh, about 1500 yrs ago.

[wishlist]

17. Presbyterian USA is liberal (Presb Church of America is right wing branch

Interesting news since I have attended services and a study group at a Presb USA church nearby and found the members to be very open minded about theology as well as lifestyle choices. I may go back and check it out some more, as they have outstanding music programs too.

Presbyterian Church of America though is a right wing splinter group (Ann Coulter attends one of their churches in NYC) which prefers male domination and does not allow women to be pastors, deacons or elders and most certainly does not approve of considering a female perspective.

[LittleClarkie]

26. I was shocked to find there were liberal Baptists

I think they are the American Baptists.

And there are of course liberal Lutherans. ELCA

Yeah, we're godless.

[Ilsa]

19. Yeah, they tend to stay pretty open-minded about

many issues.

Watch out for some of the other Presbyterian groups though. There are some that have "Evangelical" in their name, etc, and they are very conservative, and don't allow women ministers, etc. much less any tacit approval of alternative lifestyles.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

20. Presbyters I think are generally liberal. At the very least

Freepers hate them so they must do something that makes sense.

[xmas74]

22. They're considered to be mainline.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

25. After I read your post I got to doing some surfing for a better answer

I found this little jewel that certainly echos my sentiments.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060614/cm_huffpost/022942;_ylt=Am9XAPC2F5XmQK.BA79AaIqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3YWFzYnA2BHNlYwM3NDI-

To further attest that Presbyterians can't be all bad here is the freeper reaction to this article.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1649287/posts

Both are really a good read.

[niyad]

5. Maiden, Mother, Crone-the ORIGINAL trinity

[WinkyDink]

12. Precisely. Then the Female (shades of Dan Brown, but seriously)

was written out, and somehow the Ideal Holy Family became a Father, Son, and...Ghost?? WTH?

[Spacemom]

14. Absolutely

[Matariki]

15. bah. that's a modern new age interpretation of 'old religion'

too much sloppy 'scholarship' by the likes of Barbara Walker. in fact it's a division that always bugged me, as if womanhood should be measured by their child-bearing age/ability. not to mention projecting that onto Deity.

[maxsolomon]

6. God, Son, & Divine Spirit?

Jesus being literally the Son of God makes this exercise in gender neutrality kinda difficult.

If God made Mary pregnant, then "he" must have God-sperm. But Mary may not have provided the ovum, merely the womb. So God could (should?) be asexual & Jesus the result of Parthenogenesis or Gynogenesis.

But Jesus definitely was a guy. I think.

[tocqueville]

7. how about the trinity site...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. My Sufi order

has had gender neutral prayers for years.

http://www.churchofall.us/prayers.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Whatever imagery works is what ppl should use, as long as it helps

you get in touch with that feeling that there is 'more' out there.

[xchrom]

13. i was hoping that before the old pope kicked the miter...

he would elevate mary to redeemer.

but many of us already refer to the holy spirit as she.

and god as well god and not father.

[Radical Activist]

18. Honestly, this is why people become Mormon, Pentecostal

and other similar religions. Many people want a church that knows what it stands for and at least claims to be consistent in those beliefs. The same way that many people want politicians who stand for something. If something was a divine truth 2,000 years ago, then its a divine truth today, or else it was never a divine truth.

But I'm glad to see what little is left of the Presbyterian church is moving in a more liberal direction.

[WoodrowFan]

29. here's the original PC(USA) report.

here's the original PC(USA) report.

http://www.pcusa.org/theologyandworship/issues/trinityfinal.pdf

and yeah, I'm a PC (USA) elder as well, though not currently on Session... I'll reserve judgement until I've read the report and the minority report as well (once it comes out) but my initial gut reaction was similar to Radical Activist's...

This is from a news story from the "Presbyterian Outlook"

“The doctrine of the Trinity is the summary of the gospel,” in declaring that God is love in three distinct but inseparable persons, said Daniel Migliore, a theology professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and a member of that working group.

Migliore told the assembly that the paper affirms the traditional names of “Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” but does not preclude other designations, “mined from Scripture,” that also “express truly but imperfectly something of the reality of the triune God.”

The report describes the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” language as the “anchor” for Trinitarian images. But it also refers to other imaginative ways of thinking of the Trinity – such as “compassionate mother,” drawn from Isaiah; “beloved child,” drawn from Matthew; and “life-giving womb,” also from Isaiah.