What if all workers in the USA worked for Union Inc. and all Employers....

[hypocriteslayer]

had to hire workers on a lease basis from Union Inc. In other words Wal-Mark needs cashiers so they can rung up the sales and take the cash etc. Union Inc says a cashier for that zip code will cost you 35$/hr take it or leave it. In other words since all workers would work for Union Inc. a non-profit owned by the employees (1 share each for each worker) company. Heck we could have multiple Union Inc.'s that competed for the workers by offering them better pay and benefits and the only way to do that in a non-profit is to reduce overhead costs and run everything as lean as possible.

What do you think?

[snot]

1. Who controls Union, Inc.?

That's the critical question. The concern is that it could become essentially just another disfunctional institution.

In a sense, the unions suffer the same problems as corporations. Corporations are supposed to be run for the interests of their shareholders, but are instead run for the interests of their senior managers, because the process for selecting Directors for the Board (who hire and fire senior managers) isn't working well to ensure that the Directors really represent the interests of shareholders.

Similarly, the process within unions for selecting senior managers of the unions isn't working well to ensure that senior managers of the unions really represent the interests of their members, or at least that they represent them well.

There are two issues. One is that the checks and balances aren't working correctly to prevent self-dealing by senior management; i.e., there are too many opportunities/temptations to corruption. Another problem is competency -- the selection system isn't working well to ensure that those selected really are competent.

This really is a very serious systems problem that's affecting our government as well. I believe a systemic solution can be designed . . . we need to focus on this.

[hypocriteslayer]

3. I agree totally

Well what could be done is set one term limits for all managerial positions. Make the term one year and then the "managers" have to go and be contracted out to a client company.

Fighting human nature is terribly hard as we are connving creatures
:)

[The_Warmth]

10. .

The workers.

[Selatius]

2. Excellent idea if it weren't for "free will" getting in the way

A person has to choose to join a union before anything can happen.

Not everybody in the labor force is pro-union. In fact, many of them are hostile because of the bad reputation painted of unions in the news media over the decades.

Also, right-to-work laws act as an incentive not to pay union dues. Why? Because the law basically says this: Whatever a labor union negotiates with the employer, then workers who are not in the union should also get the same benefits as union workers. As a result, the question becomes obvious: Why should I pay union dues if I already get the same benefits by not paying?

[hypocriteslayer]

5. Make it the Law of the Land

[Selatius]

9. Yes, but you don't want the state assuming control over the economy

That's what you get if you made the central government the only authority in dealing with employers for pay and benefits. That's too frightening a consolidation of power.

For example, there's a reason why so many socialists on the left disagree with how to achieve a socialist order. They don't want what happened in China and Russia to ever happen again where a small cabal of people can determine how an entire economy is run.

Some want to consolidate decision-making power into a single point for practicality and ease, and others want to decentralize decision-making power to avoid seeing power fall into the wrong hands and avoid problems of "entrenched management."

[hypocriteslayer]

11. Maybe you have 10 Union Inc.s...

They coould all compete on who pays the better wages and benefits. Each worker is allowed to leave one Union Inc. for another at anytime. The ides needs a lot of thought and chaecks and balances, but I know it is pie in the sky, but it is nice to dream.

I really think the economy will need to tank even worse then the GD of the 30's before things are going to change.

[Selatius]

14. It's an improvement, but there are still issues.

The question still boils down to free will. If there are 10 unions, what if somebody chooses to join none because he doesn't think paying union dues is worth it? Or thinks unions are just as corrupt?

You must amend or abolish right-to-work laws so employees who choose not to contribute to a union's efforts don't automatically gain the same benefits as union workers who did contribute to the struggle. Get rid of that problem, and everybody would be better off as every worker is encouraged to speak for himself or herself or else lose out on gains.

I hate to sound raw, but there is no better education than an impacted pay check. If people saw what life is like without unions, then there'd be more people willingly choosing to join unions. Even then, it would be false to say all workers would join unions. For whatever reason, not everybody would join one. You might get representation up to 60, 70 or even 80 percent of the workforce several decades down the road from the date of the reform, however.

[hypocriteslayer]

19. Right to work laws

Who in the hell came up with that Orwellian term. Right to work is more like right to be fired and no right to work. I agree right to work laws are not good at all.

Yeah the idea has problems, but for pie in the sky it sure would be nice. But then again wouldn;t it be nice if people just treated each other like they wanted to be treated?

The golden rule if everyone followed it we would all be better off. Whether you are religous or not that is one heck of a rule. Well it has its own problems if you like being treated like crap, then you would treat others like crap.

Oh well.

Peace and thanks for pointing out the problems with the idea. Why do things have to get so complicated so quickly with any idea?

[Richard Steele]

4. I think your poorly-disguised RW strawman posts grow TIRESOME.

You asked what I think- that's what I think.

Let history be my judge.

[hypocriteslayer]

7. Huh????

I am serious. The problem is that managment and corporations control the labor market now and pit us against each other. If we all worked for a non-profit Emplyee owned corporation that had all workers then people would control labor rates.

How is this a RW Strawman?

:wtf:

[Richard Steele]

13. FYI: those of us with stars can see ALL your posts via: "SEARCH" function.

You asked me what I think, and I answered honestly.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[hypocriteslayer]

17. Guess what if I post it I mean it

Ooh did I think that I could post here at DU and no one would read them. NO, I am not that stupid. I have complicated politics. The DU site is to be supportive of progressive causes. I am supportive of a lot of progressive causes. No not all, but a lot. Are you that closed to an indepedents thoughts? As I said in the longer reply I would bet that the majority of Americans true beliefs are more a hodge podge from all directions. Purists scare me to death. Anyone that assumes that every position their party takes is correct and every position the opposing part takes is crap. That person is a looney loon!

Why do you think the majority of Americans are INDEPENDENTS. Because we are beholden to no one. Part of the problem in our two party system is that the registered D's and R's will vote for their parties candidate no matter what.

In the end I think that most of the muckety mucks in the congress and the white house are corrupt self-serving dunces. They should all be voted out. That would send a hell of a message that politics as usual are over.

Once again Peace.

[hypocriteslayer]

12. So are you the judge jury and executioner here at DU?

Very progressive to judge others. Very welcoming and really helps the cause. I throw an idea out in a brainstorming sort of way and, just like a lot of people I know all you can do is throw stones. No constructive input, constructive criticism at all.

:rant:

[Richard Steele]

15. KUDOS! What an excellent way to PROVE my "you use strawmen" point!

Thank you so much for showing DU that I am correct!

I am not a "judge", and no court in the USA would
ever allow me to sit on a JURY.

DU, as a whole, is well aware of that, and knows perfectly well that I have
never claimed to be anything of the sort.

[hypocriteslayer]

18. You are perfect for a jury..

at least from a prosecutors perspective. You would be seated and vote guilty before the opening statements.


The banter we are having is fun isn't it. I am not upset but do like to argue. So I have been told.

[hypocriteslayer]

16. An Olive Branch of Peace.....

Hi dicksteele,

If you want to know my ploitics.....
1) Haven't voted since 1996. (There all corrupt, thieves)
2) Voted for Clinton in 1996.
3) Voted for GWB I on 1992.
4) Am progressive on social and humanitarian issues.
5) Conservative in fiscal policy (Not tax and spend or cut and spend nbut spend less than we tax)
6) Believe that there are groups\countries etc who would love to take this country down.
7) Believe we have done a fine job of taking ourselves down.
8) Libertarian in personl matters (drugs, gay marriage, abortion, gun control)
9) Believe that being more efficient in our enegry use will pay dividends in our productivity, climate change, and in the pcoket book.
10) Sick of seeing the democrats piss on themselves. We need a strong Democrat party!
11) Believe Jimmy Carter was the last honest man in the White House. (And look what happens when our leaders tell us the truth about ourselves)
12) Sick of the Republicans acting as if they run the friggin' world and spending my kids money they haven't even made yet.
13) Sick of the federal government taking taxes from me and then telling the state I live in that you can have money for X if you do A. Wow let me give you all my money and you tell me how to run my life so I can get some of my money back.
14) Believe in strong Unions GLOBALLY!
15) Believe that we are headed for a HUGE disaster that is already in motion and no one can do a damn thing about it.
16) Believe that "Personhood" should be stripped from corporations.
17) All Corporations should not be taxed and no donations to politicians, no lobbying congress. No taxation then no representation. No write-offs for Management to visit politicians, no gifts etc.


So yes I do have some RW in me, but I have a lot of LW in me also. Plus libertarian, green, socialist etc.

It is called being a realist. I prepare for the worst and hope for the best! There are probably more like me in this country then any other group.

So if you still think I am some RW plant, please present your evidence.


Peace
:hug:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

21. I can't imagine that someone who hasn't bothered to vote in a decade..

..would be politically motivated enough to participate in a political forum?

Moran indeed. A few posts in and already confessing to not voting in a decade, and equating Democrats to Republicans when it comes to corruption and thievery.

[hypocriteslayer]

22. So I should just hold my nose and vote for voting sake?

I have voted in city, county and state elections every year. Just haven't been thrilled with the choices offered at the Federal level. I believe that it is wrong to just vote for someone as they are the lesser of two evils. Sometimes I wish we had a "none of the above" in elections (yes as in Brewsters Millions" I would bet that that would be the largest vote getter in National Elections.

I am so happy that I am now a Moran! It is so wonderful to be a maoran., Now I can go about my life and not worry about anything. No need to have opinions, no need to hope for a JFK or RFK to come along and actually be thrilled and happy to vote for them so the mess in Washington could finally be fixed.

Yes I equate the corruption and thievery in Washignton to both sides of the aisle. So just beacuse the Democrats corruption and thievery is much less than the Republicans it still does not make oit right. Just beacuse I have ideals it doesn;t mean I will compromise them beacuse this or that candidate belongs to this or that party, so it is ok.


Remember more people don't vote than do. So the true majority in the country are just sick and tired of pulling the lever for a mediocre candidates.

I look at my vote as something that is better not to be used then thrown away on someone I don't feel I can trust.

It must be nice to be so sure of yourself that you could never be wrong.

Have a nice day.

P.S. Notice I never resorted to calling names. Not that I care one wit of what you think of me. It would just be nice to have a tad bit of civilty in rational discourse.

[hypocriteslayer]

23. Name calling - that is soooooo progressive

Thanks for being welcoming and civil to a newbie on this board. It is greatly appreciated.


:yourock:

[silverlib]

6. The answer to immigration;;;

Your post intrigues me, as one of my best friends say the answer to immigration is not green cards, amnesty, or citizenship, but union cards for all. He says this will solve the problem. Sounds too simple. Is it?

[hypocriteslayer]

8. It could be that simple...

but as others have pointed out we must have good chaecks and balances so the "management" of the union doesn;t become corrupt.

You know the simple answer is always the best answer.