Democrats! Never defend. Never explain. Attack, attack, attack!

[kpete]

FROM FIREDOGLAKE:
By TRex

Listen to me, Democrats! Never defend. Never explain. Attack, attack, attack!
When a right-winger accuses you of something, back up, reframe, ignore the charges, just ATTACK. How hard can this be? Ann Coulter doesn’t waste her time defending herself against our accusations. Neither does Rush Limbaugh. They launch their attacks and the terms of the debate are set from there, and once again, as liberals, we are bringing knives to a gun fight.

To whit:

A Republican says, "All you liberals are cut-and-run traitors! You don’t support the troops!"

Instead of frantically beginning to tap dance and show that you’re not a traitor and that you do support the troops, you fire back, "Why are you Republicans such cowards? Your leaders are all draft-dodgers who’ve never fired a shot at anything but a bunch of canned quails and old lawyers. You’re using the troops as human shields against the midterm elections! Do you like seeing our brave men and women in uniform slaughtered and killed? Or are you just too much of a coward to face the consequences of your failed policies in Iraq? Which is it? Do you just hate the soldiers or do you hate your constituents?

Much more at:
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/22/late-nite-fdl-press-the-eject-and-give-me-the-tape/#comments

[AX10]

1. Kick and Recomended!

[Brigid]

2. Love it! Love it!

Recommended. :evilgrin:

[itzamirakul]

64. Along with many others, I have been preaching this "attack"

tactic since right after 911, when the Republicans began their attack on Democrats as being nonpatriotic. Those of us in favor of this tactic, really supported it during the Kerry "swiftboating."

Unfortunately, we have many soft-hearted, generous-minded members of our party who do not believe in this tactic and who want us to remain "above the fray" and not "stoop to using the GOP tactics" back on them. It is this divide that allows the Repubs to say we are unstable and weak. Our centrist members don't seem to mind these charges as long as we remain "just and honorable" while being "slain" in the press and at the polls. So we end up fighting each other rather than fighting the other party. We call each other worse names than we ever call the Repubs.

[femrap]

76. Karl Rove counts on the Dems to be

nice, civil, and polite. "The Dems are too nice to fight."

I'm like you, itzamirakul, a fighter. Some people aren't. So I ask the Dems....why can't we have both? Let those of us who are fighters, fight. And those who prefer politeness, be polite. What's wrong with that?

But I think we all have to agree that what we've been doing has not worked. And remember a campaign is different from everyday governing. Negativity is remembered THREE times as much as positivity. That's just how it is. We need to fight like there is no tomorrow in this '06 campaign. Cuz if we don't get SUBPOENA POWER with this election, I think we're beyond toast. We'll be fried.

It's now or never.

Lots of us are not afraid to play with Karl on the playground. I enjoy taking down the bully.

[Jed Dilligan]

96. I wish I could recommend THIS post

You're right on target. Yes, the cable-news analysts will squawk that this doesn't play well with the voters, the voters don't like all this negativity. But that's just brainwashing.

The other key is not to use focus groups to change our tactics mid-campaign.

[USA_1]

133. AGREE 100 %

I have said the same thing a number of times on this forum only to be ignored. If the Dems want to win this is what they will have to do. If they persist in political sissiness, they will continue to lose one election after another.

There simply is no other course.

[Cocoa]

3. if they do that, we lose

the dems are bravely defending legitimate political discourse against the RW who has been trying to destroy it.

Once legitimate political discourse is completely killed off in this country, we enter very dangerous times.

[cantstandbush]

11. No, it will force them to deal with issues if we beat them at their own

game. I've been saying this for years. The dittoheads and others out there like them who can not think critically only think and believe what the person who screams the loudest says. I agree with the original poster, this is the way to fight back. People won't even remember most of what is alleged but they will remember how confident, strong and uncowardly the screamer appears. That's what most people vote for, the fiercest screamers. It has nothing to do with truth (as you should be able to tell from the polls that show 60% still believe Iraq had WMDs and that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, as Cheney and other continue to scream.) The Rethugs have called Dems cowards and that label sticks because the Dems don't scream back "What conflict did you serve in?" Dems need to live up to the "angry tag" they laid on us a while back. You're damn right we are angry! Angry about our soldiers dying becuase we were lied to by the administration. Angry that the most wealthy keep getting tax breaks and Fed subsidies while working Americans can't get a minimum wage increase. and on and on. We need to do some name calling, screaming, scratching, and bitchin!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

15. We are losing anyway, as far as I can tell

why not embarass the assholes while we lose

[eleny]

17. But there are some truths here that can be used in polite discourse

I would turn it around on them by saying that the Dems are to be heeded because more of them have actually fought in battles. While many Repubs stayed out of the military or past wars, many Dems were in the thick of it. Now, Repubs are hiding behind soldiers to win the next elections while Dems are looking at the situation from the soldiers side of things. Because they *were* soldiers.

I suppose it's how you frame it. I think you're right about keeping it civil. Hard to do when Republican truths are so shocking.

One question posed by one of Randi's callers of yesterday was to ask Republicans: "What's in it for *you*?". So she started asking wingnuts to call her and answer that question. It's a show stopper. I like it since we know there's nothing in this war for the working class.

[Pachamama]

29. I tend to agree with the strategy of attack back and disagree that we lose

by doing that...I think the reality is that legitimate political discourse in this country was destroyed the day that Bush was selected to be the President by the SCOTUS. We are already in a very dangerious times and if we don't start fighting back, then its going to be even more dangerous for all of us.

[sendero]

59. It was destroyed..

.... long before that.

Politics is now a game-show to most Americans. I agree with the OP, 100%.

[WinkyDink]

60. I believe we lost the other way, no? Congress, Executive Branch, .....

[Beelzebud]

61. MUST.. KEEP... POWDER.... DRY... AT... ALL.... COSTS!!!!!

[Mr_Spock]

74. You are completely missing the point.

The point is, there is NO dialog so long as we are in defensive mode. We look weak and people do not hear us. That old attitude is destroying this party - there's a time to back off and and time to fight. If we don't fight, we lose - just ask the founding fathers who had to finally decide to take up arms against Britain.

[SmokingJacket]

86. We've already lost. Time to try something different. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

94. Two things: Legitimate political discourse is already dead, and

we are in very dangerous times.

[Joe Chi Minh]

100. You misunderstand the situation completely.

Rational, adult, even half-honest, political discourse, is never, never, never initiated by this brood of Republicans. Do you really think they are truth-seekers? Open to persuasion?

What you see as a "bona fide" basis for rational and civilised political discourse on their part are simply talking points, patently skewed, biased, perverse, outrageous, shameless, surreal. You thereby allow these operatives to frame the discourse so that you are always on the back foot, always trying to "explain yourself". You are the client. They are the Man. Despite the fact that they consistently peddle nothing but the most outrageous lies and bullshit, which any sensible person (I'm sorry if this offends you) would be embarrassed and ashamed not to immediately identify as infantile mendacity.

Do you want to argue that Democrats are not conspiracy theorists concerning the most recent Presidential election(s), with Republicans who peddle this piffle? If so, you are a patsy for the Big Lie, and one of the people they rely on to do their work for them.

Instead of the seemingly myriad patchwork of criminality in different forms of electoral fraud and voter suppression bringing about this administration's immediate and dramatic downfall in total and utter disgrace, in the eyes of an astonished public, they have been able to use its very scale and variegation as a platform for accusing their accusers of being "conspiracy theorists"! Believe me, in the developed world, it could only happen in the US.

The incredulity in this context could not differ more starkly. The incredulity of Western Europeans would be that the Republicans would have had the lunatic audacity to try and pull such a plethora of surreal stunts. Normally criminals do their utmost to act invisibly, leave as little evidence as possible behind, and generally, guard the utmost secrecy concerning their felonies. Minimalism is the watchword. But with "our friends", even their secrecy is an offence against secrecy! Like the protestations of Ernest Partridge's "beneficiary" of the drug-sniffer dog's persistent interest. Not that either he or the Republicans have a choice!

Here, you have the most open and unabashed criminality, and total reliance on a criminally derelict MSM to continue to suppress the whole business to the best of their ability; and also a significant, criminally partisan, desperately unethical judiciary to do the same. Neither wants to know.... still less for you to know. The Big Lie can only work, as long as that Berlin Wall holds.

Now, do you really think it is reasonable to take THEIR accusations seriously? Yet, in the US, it seems, there are possibly STILL many people for whom the hard evidence, no matter how voluminous, no matter how copious and cogently corroborated, and for whom the circumstantial evidence, no matter how conclusively, damningly incontrovertible, still fall for that Big Lie.

[Notoverit]

122. How about defending principles, beliefs rather than "discourse?"

Discourse vs shouting never works anyway. Ask any battered wife.

[calmblueocean]

124. I agree.

Yesterday I was in line at the bank, and saw a clip on CNN of Chuck Hagel condemning Rove's tactics. He said, in part:

"This debate should transcend cynical attempts to turn public frustration with the war in Iraq into an electoral advantage. It should be taken more seriously than to simply retreat into focus-group tested buzz words and phrases like 'cut and run,' catchy political slogans that debase the seriousness of war."

I totally agree. Our Congress is almost a cartoon as it is. If we shake off the last vestiges of rational discussion, we've lost everything.

[madmusic]

4. Recommended

[rwheeler31]

5. Why don't we call the

FCC when they spout??

[wanpete]

6. Excellent kpete! I like it and think that it's very effective....tired of

dancing...walk tall and carry a big stick dems!

[kpete]

9. are we related?

[wanpete]

23. I consider that a compliment kpete! I love your posts and the rock

solid info and energy you bring to the DU. As far as I'm concerned, we are family!

:yourock: :yourock:

[autorank]

7. That's what Democrats SHOULD do...but is it "prudent?" K&R

Somebody might get upset,forget to recycle the newpaper...and that would be bad.

There are exactly two big issues

--emerging tyranny,i.e., wars built on lies, stolen elections, Quislings in Congress, etc.

and

--the end of the world as we know it through global climate change and what we do about it.

Everything else is subordinate.

There needs to be non stop 7/24 attack supporting these issues...now.

Good news-Dean gets it on election fraud. Next,he'll get it on the environment.

Great sentiment and post.

[Clyde39]

8. I'm sick of hearing---- "You liberals"

The LTTE seem to have this theme on a daily basis, almost.

[EVDebs]

72. "Godless Liberals", per Coulter. R's suckled from her teat

lack the milk of human kindness. Wonder why.

Mon freres, DU and the Founding Father's Freemasonic background of tolerance, equality, and liberty (a.k.a. Liberty, Equality, Fraternity) is more linked to The Great Architect of the Universe than any illusionary pharisaic display of "piety" the Republicans put out.

The conservatives "religion" induces vomiting in the words of the Savior, Revelation 3:14-22 , he will vomit them out:

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Conservatives also are lacking in judgement, mercy and faith

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol33/htm/xiii.htm

""...so as to make a display of extraordinary zeal for piety at the least possible expense."" Yes, the conservatives are modern-day scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites. On display for all to see.

[Change has come]

10. and unless you step on a kitten's tail...

Don't APOLOGIZE!

:patriot:

[Kurovski]

12. I predict 72 recommends for this thread...

anybody wanna FIGHT about it?! ;-)

R

[Kurovski]

135. The estimate was exactly half.

Proof that when you go conservative on a guess, just as in politics, you end up getting it all wrong.

[sandnsea]

13. Call out their failed policies

No matter what they say, you point to their failed policies and demand answers to fix them, not empty slogans. And absolutely we should stop defending ourselves against their attacks, we shouldn't talk about them at all except to snort or scoff. It's got nothing to do with any high road, it has to do with choosing the fights we want to have. You do not argue with liars, some of us have been saying that for a few years now. Glad some folks finally get it.

[femrap]

81. Yea...snorting and scoffing!

It's all in our ATTITUDE, don't you think? The pugs and rove have had the 'whammie' on us for so long that we have been cowed into a defensive and scared existence. Imagine being a Dem in DC and listening to those pugs on a daily basis and in person. The Dems (most of them) have been worn down and some possibly threatened/blackmailed into servitude.

I remember watching 'Now' with Bill Moyers right after the '04 Election...Grover Norquist was on. He told the Dems that they were 'castrated...and to stop peeing on the furniture.' I can't wait until he and Ralph Reed are indicted. I'm sorry but that type of comment deserves an angry, biting, attacking response...not a polite one.

These pug men are going to destroy our Democracy and our Constitution if we don't get SUBPOENA POWER in '06. It's now or never, folks. Keep this in mind when talking to pugs. We're fighting for our lives now....and the very planet's existence, IMHO.

[sandnsea]

103. See, this is how I'd handle that

With a square look in the eye, a little smirk, and "remember Grover, animals are at their most dangerous when backed into a corner."

Then refocus on the failed Iraq war, Osama bin fogotten, monstrous debt, wage stagnation, health care crisis, global warming, oil prices - and "watcha gonna do".

We don't have to get nasty and attack, just scoff at their empty attacks, point out their failures, and demand they have real solutions to clean it up. Because they don't have solutions and will implode on their own failures, dysfunctional people always do. Then we just pick up with our solutions and move on. You stick to that strategy, and eventually the majority will follow.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. Would someone please explain to me why we aren't doing this?

I agree completely.

[Stinky The Clown]

16. Gee ... thaat's called 'tough talk'. We don't like tough

But we sure as shit better learn it.

K&R

[fooj]

18. Right on!

:applause:

[AtomicKitten]

19. absolutely

Rove is going after the Dems' strength -- Bush's Iraq -- and the Dems are falling into the trap.
Cut and run, my ass. They have got to come to grips with the fact that we are dealing with junior high school mentality (GOP+MSM) and we need to step up the caustic rhetoric in sound byte size and repeat it over and over and over and over and over again. Surely Rove has taught us that lesson.

[flaminbats]

20. is war really hell?

but naturally the war on terrorism is only the will of God..:crazy:

Republican taxcuts may undermine the war in Iraq, but never mind who pays for it or who dies..patriotism is all that matters.

Who cares that 9/11 happened when Bush was in office?..Democrats are soft on terrorism! Who cares if Republicans sold these chemical weapons to Iraq?..at least Saddam Hussein is dead! Who cares if our men and woman are dying in Iraq?..at least Republicans like attending the funerals! Who cares if Bush doesn't have an exit strategy?..at least Republicans don't like to lose!

[robinlynne]

21. I love "we are bringing knives to a gunfight." That sums up the past 6 yrs

[bleever]

39. And H2O Man cited another powerful metaphor here:

I have compared DU to an airplane from an old story I learned many years ago. It is from Ouspensky's "The Fourth Way," in which he describes a man who hooks two draft horses to an airplane and uses it as a carriage. Then he learns to turn the engine on, and uses the plane like a car. But he doesn't realize that the plane can fly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1483158#1483604

[Joe Chi Minh]

101. Marvellous! Surely the ultimate metaphor!

[Senator]

47. 16 years -- at least

...that's how long I've been repeating it.

Gingrich's GOPAC spews-letter brought the first "gun." And DC Dems are still unable to match their convictions with their rhetoric.

--

[upi402]

22. AGREED!!!!

Making nice is for the party that refuses to win. America is too dumbed down and has the hots for hate. It's the hand we are playing, so lets play already!

[doc03]

24. I agree 100% it's about time Democrats fight back

and tell it like it is. Bring up the fact that the Bush family gave us the Savings and Loan crisis. That Bush 41 said that if we occupied Iraq that we would have the mess we are in now. That the whole administration Ran and Hid when it was their time to serve. If a Democrat came out and told these assholes off I guarantee the working people would start supporting Democrats again.

[racaulk]

25. Damn straight!!!

We need to spend our time calling them to the mat to defend their hypocrisy, warmongering, and corruption, instead of trying to debate the issues and defend baseless claims and talking points on their terms! Fight back, damnit!!!

K&R, baby!

:kick:

[earth mom]

26. ReTHUGS think dems are a bunch of wimps.

I agree that we need to prove the bastards WRONG! :grr:

[kentuck]

27. Under normal condition, civil discourse would be appropriate...

However, these are not "normal times". We have an opposition that aims to knock you down and grind their boot in your face. We must fight back accordingly.

[ConsAreLiars]

28. I was sickened by watching Dems all talking about "cut and run"

and how it wasn't what they meant. Every time they repeated it or came up with some lame ass analog like Kerry's pathetic "stay and pay" they reinforced the Rovian lie. Are they really that stupid? Or what? The Corporatists' #1 party chooses the tune and the Corporatists' #2 party dances like marionettes.

If they want to truly serve the interests of the people they MUST start telling the straight truth about the PNAC plan and Corporate fascism. But there's not much money and a fair bit of danger in taking the side of the people.

[ArmchairMeme]

69. PNAC

I see that PNAC has melted into the woodwork. I read last week that they moved back into AEI. What's happening here?

[PerfectSage]

30. Your too nice.

If a republican told me: 'I was a traitor who didn't support the troops'. I'd ask'em: When was the last time someone told you to take your piece of shit opinions and shove'em up you piece of shit ass, motherfucker?

The secret to a good offense is an infinite amount of contempt.

[Polemicist]

31. Always first, reject the right wing premise....

Thereby shattering their frame and replacing it with your own frame. And don't ever use their slogan in replying to anything they say. If you do, you have given up the high ground.

Such as the "cut and run" frame. When confronted with such an accusation, simply say, "Democrats have never and will never back away from Defending America". And never say the words, "cut and run" that's their frame. Take it away.

Then re-frame the debate. "The American people realize that the GOP's reckless incompetence which pushed us into the war in Iraq was a mistake." The new frame is "Republican reckless incompetence".

"Democrats are going to increase our nation's security by redistributing our forces to where they can actually be effective in fighting the war on terror."

In any discussion with right wingers, you must always reject their premise and re-frame the debate. For as anyone who has spent any time debating with right wing radicals realizes, most all their framing points are false to begin with. It's very easy to reject them and re-frame.

[bleever]

42. Very well put.

:thumbsup:

[senseandsensibility]

32. kick

Can someone send this to the Dem leadership?

[Sleepless In NY]

35. Let repubs explain their "CUT AND RUN" on NY & DC.

Repubs came to NY for their RNC 2004 convention and talked about nothing but 9/11, oh the tears..... "Never forget" as if any NY'er ever could. They exploited the tragedy of 9/11 shamelessly for their own political gain.

Well, The election is over folks, so what do they do? They CUT Homeland Security and Bio Chemical funds to NY & DC

So who forgot 9/11? Bush & the republicans, they pulled a real "CUT AND RUN" on the 2 areas that took the full brunt of 9/11.


Why the democrats don't hit them squarely in the face with this, is beyond me. Let repubs explain their "CUT AND RUN" on NY & DC. Between this and chertoff's fiasco with Katrina, Democrats should be calling for chertoff's head.

Another thing..it was two democrats FDR & TRUMAN who managed to win WW2 and the peace, by intelligent pre and post war planning with their allies.

Yet I've seen 2 bush family members who can't even handle Iraq.


Saigon fell to the communists on Nixon/Fords watch, this after Nixon was elected twice, where he had plenty of time to put his "secret plan to end the war in Vietnam" in place, before he had to resign in his 2nd term...but never did.

As for Coulter & the 9/11 widows...she has neither a husband or a child...so how would she know what's it like to lose either? And as for her remarks that NY'ers would "surrender to the terrorists" I didn't see any mass exodus out of NY after 9/11. People stood their ground and unlike Ann and her ilk...they didnt go running to buy plastic and duct tape. And neither did any of the states most effected by 9/11 vote for bush in the 2004 election....We "remember 9/11" alright...it happened on bush's incompetent watch. We have no illusions about bush protecting anything.

Bin Laden is free, the Anthrax terrorists is free, The USS Cole bombers have escaped from prison and are free...so this is the republican "plan" to combat terrorism? Well guess what? it sucks.

This thread is so on target...time to attack repuke weaknessess, God knows, there are many.

[ninkasi]

50. Excellent post, Sleepless in NY

You've brought up some very useful points. As far as the idiotic phrase "stay the course", I have yet to find a Republican who could tell me what the course is. Things get worse and worse, so wouldn't that suggest we've lost our way, and it's time to change direction?

[jillan]

45. Amen to that!

we need to send it.

[itzamirakul]

65. What damned Dem leadership? (sarcasm) nt

[senseandsensibility]

87. exactly

sad, but true. I was struggling for the correct term, but I see that I missed. Any ideas where we should send it? Anybody?

[oasis]

33. Yellow bellied, draft dodging, awol, sons of bitches.

[Bretttido]

34. I agree whole-heartedly! Stay on the offensive and the debate is yours

You don't win a boxing match by blocking punches and hoping your opponent gets weak. You bust a left and a right and keep smacking the hell out of them till they land on their ass!

[maxfisher]

36. If you were a democrat in mississippi...

You would know how lame this republican light bulsshit is. If you are a veteran and your opponent wasn't , go mediaval on this bullshit. Jesus H. You have the upper hand, your opinion is legit, veterans have the right to tell me about war. I would never talk like rove does to kerry. Kerry should have put on his old combat boots, and said" Fuck you candyass, fat fucks screaming for war. Put your ass on the line and we'll talk. How DARE YOU! HOW DARE YOU! keery would have CARRIED the SOUTH. When those fucks called him out, and he didn't say DICK. He lost that moment!!!

[maxfisher]

38. sorry about my spelling ,

I am drunk , and live in Mississippi . We are RIGHT< WE REPRESENT THE PEOPLE> IF we didn't look like cowtowing PUSSIES < WE WOULD NEVER LOSE!

[bleever]

37. Count me in.

The fuck-ups can't demand apologies from anyone.

They can have a little space in which to try to apologize their way out of their incompetence, but my time is all about what they've messed up, with reckless disregard for what works, while they go on with their crony capitalist ski vacation.

They need to have the public perception focused on: Dems Divided! That's the big story!


Not the fact that Democratic Senators, like the majority of Americans, are looking for a way to hand the keys back to the Iraqis and wish them luck, so no more men come home in boxes.

I'm sick of hearing people trying to tell me why the Democrats will always get it wrong.

Some people are heavily invested in the story that Democrats aren't good at elections, can't get united, and will always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The perception managers want Democrats to feel helpless, to portay them to Independents as weak, and to portray them to Republicans as the weird kid who always gets his lunch money stolen.

To hell with that.

If someone needs to convince you that you're weak, it means they're afraid.

[maxfisher]

40. cheerleaders, not soldiers

these tough talking cheerleaders, always wanting war. None of them served, these nancy boys were all cheerleaders. Look at their freaking hair! All repressed homos. no offense, it's the closeted, repressed mam's boys we specialize here that kill me.

[bleever]

41. My friends who are homosexual

are not characterized by weakness. Just the opposite.

But people who want to villianize, to deny, to establish some "ideal", are the ones who do the most damage, eh?

[jillan]

43. Democrats have nothing to defend. They need to be answering to us.

Time for the dems to hold their heads up high, and make the repugs answer to us.

K & R!

[autorank]

44. On hemmed-in ground, resort to stratagem. On desperate ground, fight..

Here's how we got here.

26. Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with
superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes,
no calamity need be feared. (XI, 26)

We abandoned the superstitions "management" fed us
through the Corporate Media and saw clearly the
rapidly emerging tyranny.

We are on seemingly hopeless ground, armed only with the
knowledge of the easily exposed reality and its destructive force.

50. On hemmed-in ground, I would block any way
of retreat. On desperate ground, I would proclaim
to my soldiers the hopelessness of saving their lives.

We're surrounded and facing defeat...the response is to fight as
though we have everything to lose.

51. For it is the soldier's disposition to offer
an obstinate resistance when surrounded, to fight hard
when he cannot help himself, and to obey promptly when he
has fallen into danger. (XI,50 & 51)

Ancient metaphor, excellent advice.


http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html

[PerfectSage]

93. I've been reading Sun Tzu latety too.

9. The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom,
sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.

'Stay the course' = George Bush is a stupid, incompetent, moral coward who blew the short window of opportunity in 2003 to bring stability to Iraq and now I can't admit I'm a stupid fuckup.


11. Now the general is the bulwark of the State;
if the bulwark is complete at all points; the State will
be strong; if the bulwark is defective, the State will
be weak.

Now who thinks the Bush/Cheney bulwark is defective? The only war these idiots will win is the war on wearing out the walls of Uncle Sam's rectum by spending the country into the toilet with all those nobid Halliburton contracts. 'Stay the course' = 'Loot and spinners'

Finally, the War on Terrorism is the Republican frame, reframe it as the War of Neocon Aggression.

[Snaggletooth]

134. Better yet, acknowledge that the war is over, just like Shrubya said.

Now, when are we going to end the Occupation of Iraq?

Technically, Congress never declared war on Iraq, and they are the only ones with the LEGAL (as in Constitutional) right to do so. Let's take away BushCo's fictitious fig leaf...no, Mr. Bush the sequel, you are not the War Preznit, you are the Illegal Occupation Pretender; playing blood for money make-believe games at the world's expense.

We have to stop implicitly acknowledging the lie; that this is a legitimate war. It gives the impression that we agree...that truth is whatever the neo-Khans say it is.

Snaggletooth the Crone

[Paradise]

46. K & R n/t

[Reckon]

48. Great point

I'm seeing the Dems go on the offensive a little bit more the last few days.

[Klukie]

49. This is dead on!

I love it. I am starting to learn that sometimes you just have to bite back. This is one of those times.

[JNelson6563]

51. Great stuff Pete!

You post so much good stuff in recent months, when I see something from you I know it's going to be well worth the read.

:toast:

[marions ghost]

52. Democrat/Liberals

often try to 'take the high road.' That's not working now. The opposition has become so ruthless and aggressive that they just expect Dems to be pushovers. It's our defined role as abused "spouses" (or children) to their Domineering Father. There is no way out but to fight fire with fire. We need to put our fighters out front and center and support them.

Liberals/Dems need to stop being punching bags. We may need assertiveness training, media training (learning how not to amplify the lies), anger management techniques...all that personal empowerment stuff ...seriously. But also we need to learn how to play our best cards as a group. Workshops/support groups for liberal group action such as Moveon has promoted are to the point IMO.

We need to stop taking this abuse. We have the numbers. We are up against a Goliath of twisted evil and corruption. Instead of 'fighting them over there'--we're gonna have to fight the evil right here at home. Home-grown...and it's out-of-control.

[rndmprsn]

53. been saying this for years... K+R'd

[greiner3]

54. Lately;

I just start spouting filth and cursing. Case in point; I was posting a reply the other day to a freeper's response to a youtube video. Instead of a consise and thoughtful counter explanation, I wrote a 100 word 'your penis is so small...' response. I went back a little while later and another freeper wrote to my response 'I didn't read anywhere that sex was part of this...' Duh, neither are the responses that your side puts up. Not sexual, but in the 'it don't mean a thing catagory.' Screw them. They can't use curse or cuss words because their sites are run by fundies. But does that mean we'll be prayed against and wink out of existence? Bring it on! Oops, maybe not the best come back in this day and time :rofl:

[femrap]

88. 'your penis is so small' rant....LOL!

And to continue in that vein....why can't we return to Jeff Gannon/Guckert? Why was a homosexual Male Escort who specializes in Military men at the WH so OFTEN? Why?

In bringing this up, I am NOT insulting my gay male friends. It's just another way that the WH is showing extreme hypocrisy. They denounce gay marriage, but Jeff Gannon/Guckert visits the WH. But no one says a thing....remember? Then Gannon/Guckert is on the cover of The Advocate...rove and this WH are evil incarnate....no shame, no morals, and would do anything to win.

I don't think the WH gang is closeted....I think they are sexually perverted sadists/mashocists. I even worry about w's dog.

[HootieMcBoob]

55. Best thing I've read in ages

Thanks to Kpete for posting it and many many thanks to Trex at Fire Dog Lake for writing it.

Fire Dog Lake is fast becoming one of my favorite blogs. It has some of the best writing out there.

Yesterday Jane Hamsher's mother passed away.

This is a link to the announcement on the site in case anyone from DU would like to drop by and offer their condolences. http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/22/sorrow/

[mod mom]

56. Too bad their pundits dismiss the netroots instead of listening to reason.

FDL is correct-they should be on the attack on so many fronts, yet they couldn't even agree on the Iraq War, desite a majority of the American people against it.

[Bosso 63]

57. Tora! Tora! Tora!

The elephant is wounded, it is now most vulnerable and most dangerous, but now is the time to drive in the stake in it's evil heart. Everything is on the line, and the Democrats keep trying to use logic against the delusional. The only way they can win, is if they can keep us swinging at the shadows. Its time to stay sharp and stay focused.

[malaise]

58. About time n/t

[dogday]

62. Absolutely, it's about time

There are so many bad things the Republicans have done, we should not have any problem with picking them apart with their actions...

The cut n run slogan needs to be counter-acted with the stay n pay slogan....

[Boxerfan]

63. BINGO! I Can't reccomend a thread more than once-Darn

This should be in the front lobe of every Democrat who has to "converse" with a righty...Never ever give an inch or conceded an error. They will invariably try & use said issue as a wedge-Guaranteed!

[verse18]

66. Another good thing about this type of strategy

is that it brings the truth to light. Right-wingers' arguements are nothing but logical fallicies used to evade the real issues.

Reframe, reframe, reframe and let the true issues be debated.

[lonestarnot]

67. Totally agree here. This has been my methodology for some time now.

And it is fun to watch their faces turn pale, their tails tuck between their legs and scurry off into the sunset.

[Maven]

68. Best post EVER

I have to start reading firedoglake.

[Midlodemocrat]

70. Awesome! Thanks, kpete!

[Lautremont]

71. "Never retract, never retreat, never apologize.

Just get the thing done and let them howl."

That's Nellie McClung, I believe, a pioneering Canadian suffragette. They're wise words and ought to have been embraced by the left long ago.

[Mr_Spock]

73. I'm all about this philosophy

I'm not going to get defensive ever again to these lying pigs.

[hiphopnation]

75. :::chills::::

k&r

couldn't have said it better

[amb123]

77. Harry Truman said it best.

"Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive. And don't ever apologize for anything."

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[dogday]

79. That describes the Republicans very well

That is why they attack, attack, attack, never answer any questions, and accuse everyone of doing what they themselves do....

[Brigid]

91. Truman is exactly right.

He would have made a great military officer.

[Raksha]

114. That's my sig line on another forum

and I do my best to live up to it.

[madokie]

78. They need to realize there is no sacred cows and to take no prisoners

this is war for America, no time to make nice.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

80. k&r

[Raster]

82. Kick it, Baybeee!

:kick:

[Ian_rd]

83. It's too obvious a strategy, the Dems will never go for it (nt)

[IndependentVoice]

84. You really hit the nail on the head gj man

:toast:

[wiggs]

85. Agree. Get Rude Pundit to write our talking points. nt

[Roland99]

89. Ever notice how quickly a CON backs down when confronted?

[treestar]

116. Yes, and they quickly start whining and playing the victim

Very soon they are claiming they are being "stopped" from stating their opinion. They equate mere opposition with "censorship." Arguing against them alone is enough to get them feeling persecuted.

[Brigid]

90. On another political board I visit,

we have members from both the left and the right. Over the three years I have been a member there, I have always been amused by their blindness and stupidity. It doesn't matter how logical you try to be, it doesn't matter how sound you make your arguments -- they are not going to be dissuaded from their blind worship of *.

There is one member in particular who thinks he's some sort of great conservative philosopher or something. He uses big words and elegent sentence structure to hide his basically extreme right-wing beliefs, but he doesn't fool me. What he really wants is for us Dems to play nice, and not to bother them with our ideas because we are morally inferior, especially if we support abortion rights. He tries to convince us that * is not the entirety of the Repug party, and that we should not take Ann Coulter so seriously. He says he "loses respect" for those of us who declare that we will not be voting for any Republican for any office ever again. As if having his respect is somehow important! :eyes: I told him athat I don't care if * is not the whole of his party, they need to pay a heavy political price for inflicting eigtht years of that man on us. The other night he chided me for saying that I hated * with a purple passion. He said that as a Christian he cannot hate anyone, and that is not something a Christian should say about another. I about fell off my chair laughing. I told him I hate * and don't care what he thinks about it.

What I have learned is that playing nice just doesn't work. If any of you are still, for any reason, clinging to the idea that it does, forget it about it -- at least in the area of politics, where we are dealing with a deadly enemy who will do anything to crush us. It's hard to wrap your head around that idea, but it's true, unfortunately. :(

[Jed Dilligan]

97. LOL

"There is one member in particular who thinks he's some sort of great conservative philosopher or something. He uses big words and elegent sentence structure to hide his basically extreme right-wing beliefs, but he doesn't fool me."

Man, do I know this type! They've been showing up here lately in the guise of "Socratic" debaters.

[Blue Velvet]

92. Recommended! I LOVE this (at)tac(k)tic!

Destroy (or throw out) their frame and build a new one! And paint a few new pictures while yer at it!

[opihimoimoi]

95. I agree, been doing it for years....Where is the Beef?

[Brigid]

98. Where's the beef?

Here ya go:

[opihimoimoi]

112. Things would have been so much nicer if this man had the Oval Office

America got robbed in more ways than one...

[paulk]

99. the problem is not so much Dems fighting back

the problem is that our mainstream media has become a wholly owned subsidary of the RNC. The Republicans always get to frame the debate not because of their tactics, but because the MSM does it for them.

And the MSM can be counted on to twist and spin anything a Democrat says to reflect back in a negative way - or to fit into whatever meme the RNC is pushing about a particular issue. Or they can be counted on to completely ignore what a Democrat says if they're unable to spin it.

Time and again on DU I've seen posters ask why Democrat A or B hasn't said or done anything about an issue when in fact, they have. You just don't get to hear about it.

[mojowork_n]

102. Are we Pod People? Daleks?

Actually, I don't disagree with this at all, but I think it's worth taking a minute to drill this comparison down a little.

Well-paid spokespersons for the Busheviks, like Coulter and Limbaugh and Hannity and the rest, aren't journalists. They're don't address "issues", or any real-world, practical concerns any of their listeners may have.

What they do is exploit the naivete, naked self-interest and reptile-brain subconscious prejudices of their audience (or the lowest common denominator of that audience, on which their appeal is based), to twist any and all real-world issues into Republican talking points.

What they are is full-time propagandists, who've taken an existing art form and transformed it into a facade of ***newsiness***. (Apologies to Mr. Colbert.)

They're salespeople. Shamelessly ripping off the best patter-song verbal riffs from the Carnival Barker/Atlantic City Boardwalk school of hucksterism, they're really no different from the pitchmen who sell baldness cures and boner pills on late night TV info-mercials. The mostly white, mostly male, ill-educated-and-proud-of-it knobs who follow their line, pulling the lever as they're told on election day, are a robot army of republican daleks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek


They believe they've been transformed into "winners" by these hucksters, even as they vote against their own self-interest, because these guys always stay on message and never giving up on closing a sale.

So I'm a little concerned about any attempt to compete directly. (Like getting involved in the proverbial pissing contest with a skunk, there is a tipping point at which the skunk must automatically lose. He's a skunk, after all. You just don't go there.)

All that being said, though, we *do* need better debating strategies and a healthy dose of attitude. Getting everyone on our side "on message" is always going to take more work and effort, just to penetrate the fog and noise from the other side.

I was sort of encouraged by this front page story in my local paper, this morning:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=439958

but annoyed by the framing, which looks even worse in print than it will on your electrons. The Bushevik spokesperson from the Realtor's Association is given first-billing in the quote/reaction column, and also shows up at the article's conclusion.

I would encourage anyone with practical ideas to log in to the new website:

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/

with suggestions, feedback and commentary.

[tgnyc]

Word life.

[tgnyc]

104. Word life.

[Ganja Ninja]

105. Yes exactly!

Stop worrying about fighting fair. Don't bother to answer their stupid accusations. Win if you can and cheat if you must. That's how they fight and we need to fight them the same way. We need to stop worrying about "becoming like them". We're in a fight for our lives and IT WILL get bloody before it ends.

[Cetacea]

106. Kick and Recomended!

Rovian psychology. Tried, tested, and true.

[Cronus Protagonist]

107. LOVE. IT.

WERD!



Educate A Freeper - Flaunt Your Opinions!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Jeffersons Ghost]

108. kick

[SiouxJ]

109. Republicans are cowards who always send someone else to do their fighting

You're right. We need to just attack back. It's plain and simple - ignore what they are saying and attack back; just like they do.

You can add emphasis to your point if whomever you are talking to is under 42 (they just raised the enlistment age), by asking them why they aren't over there fighting if they believe in this cause so much.

[motocicleta]

110. Absolutely.

That tactic, along with electoral malfeasance, is the only thing that the rw has going for it, yet the strategy has worked. We must fight fire with fire.

[novalib]

111. HALLELUJAH!!!!

I've been saying this and saying this for YEARS!!

Put the Bush Cabal Regime Thugs and their boot-licking croneys on the DEFENSIVE -- and NEVER EVER let up!!

Do NOT give them any mercy!

Never forget what they have done and what they are doing!

They are MONSTERS!! EVIL monsters that want to destroy ALL that we hold dear!

ATTACK!! ALWAYS ALWAYS ATTACK!!

[tinfoil tiaras]

113. AMEN!

Just K&Red...

[tbyg52]

115. Virtual kick

I don't have enough posts..... ;->

[Raine]

117. YES, YES, YES and

NEVER EVER apologize...NEVER!

[lonestarnot]

118. Woooodamnwhooo! Kick'n ass and takin' names! 125! R's

KICK ASS! WOOOOOHOOOOO! :woohoo:

[Harry Monroe]

119. Fighting fire with fire

It's sad that it's come down to this, but civility just doesn't get the point across anymore. If we are to beat these assholes at their own game, we must play by their rules. A sorry state indeed when we must use the equivalent of a smack upside the head to get a point across.

[Harry Monroe]

120. Or to put it more succinctly..

...a swift kick in the balls. But that's what it takes nowdays with so much crap competing for JoeSixpack's attention. To drag him from his latest "reality" show and get him to think, we need to be as vocal and shrill as Ann the Man Coulter. Come to think of it, Ann really deserves a kick in the balls as well!!

[senseandsensibility]

121. another kick

Any ideas out there where we should send this? I just feel we should make the effort to send it somewhere, to someone. Pelosi? Reid? Dean? Other?

[Imagevision]

123. Bush legacy, failed policies in Iraq...just for openers...!

[Cha]

125. KBNR!

:kick:

[Uncle Joe]

126. Ok kpete, you win today's best post award, at least by me.

Kicked and recommended!

:kick:

[Cetacea]

127. Add a pinch of subtle character assasination...

Great Post.

[liberalla]

128. Loved reading this.

We need this posted everyday. This message needs to be internalized. It doesn't come natural for me to do this, but I agree it's a necessary change in tactics.

Bookmarked

[Liberal_Dog]

129. Boo Yeah!!!

The best defense is a good offense.

[paparush]

130. Hey, that's the way to SMOKE 'EM OUT OF THEIR HOLES!!

[Burried News]

131. If we are not victorious ... let no man come back alive. nt

[bleever]

132. I regret

that I have but one recommendation to give to this thread.


:patriot:

[senseandsensibility]

136. Me, too

But I want everyone on DU to see this, so here's a kick for those that haven't.