If we lose this year's elections, there may not be an election in 2008.

[Cyrano]

Unless we can win either the house or senate this year, I don't believe we will see a presidential election in 2008. For the past six years, the Bush/Cheney mob and their cohorts in congress have done whatever they wanted to do without any restraints on them.

Two questions: (1)Why would they give up power? (2)Who's going to make them give it up?

These pigs have used power like a kid in a candy shop, they love it, and they can't get enough of it. They can do what they want to, when they want to, and to whomever they want to do it to.

They've proved to us time and again that they have no moral boundaries in their use and abuse of that power. Gee, isn't it great to invade any country you feel like invading? Snoop into anyone's conversations and financial affairs? Being able to detain anyone at will for any reason that pops into your head? Hell, you can even disappear them to one of your undisclosed torture chambers. Want to kill them? No problem.

Enumerating a full list of their abuses of power is virtually impossible as they've been doing it one or more times a day, every single day, for five and a half years now. And those are just the ones we know about.

And let's not forget the words that King George himself uttered. "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, as long as I'm the dictator." Anyone think the sociopath didn't mean those words?

So who's going to make them give up their power? The media? The courts? Don't hold your breath. Can We The People force them to give it up? Aside from all the Audie Murphy types who have a cache of guns and other exotic weapons, I don't think so. King George, Darth Cheney and their henchmen own the police, the military, the means to eavesdrop on us anywhere, anytime, and the ability to infiltrate any group that tries to organize an armed rebellion. Small groups could cause some damage, but doing away with our dictatorship would remain a fantasy.

Everyone who thinks the above scenario isn't possible is fooling themselves. Canceling an election would be no problem for them. A MIHOP incident followed by a declaration of martial law and a "temporary" suspension of elections would be all that would be needed.

So how would they finally be removed from power? Well, the rest of the world might band together and try to overthrow them. But that would result in the launching of every nuclear weapon in our arsenal. The fundies would get their Armageddon.

The other possibility is a military coup. If this were to happen, it would be a tossup of whether the generals would retain power or reestablish the rule of law and what used to be our constitutional government.

So let's hear why you think I'm wrong (or right).


(Edited for spelling.)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

1. I long for the day when I would have thought what you said was

insane. Not anymore. That is why it seems so important to me to tie the Republicans to Bush's crimes at every single chance.

Rubberstampers.

I wish we could be in charge of the media campaigns.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

2. PS - There wasn't really an election in 04 n/t

[kcass1954]

29. Or in 2000 either. n/t

[madokie]

3. My gut tells me you are so right. we have one more time to get it right

and '06 is it.

[CanonRay]

4. On my bad days, I think the same thing.

Remeber, Hitler was elected, too. I'm trying to stay optimisitc, but if we lose in '06 and can't impeach this guy, I fear for our democracy.

[AlinPA]

5. We are going to beat the pigs in '08. If we don't, it will be because

they have taken control of the voting machines. Then your scenario is entirely possible. They totally own the broadcast media now, but we can still work around it.

[zeemike]

6. Anything is possible in an Orwellian world

Although I think that they will hold on to the pretext of a transition of power and have a new figurehead president, but the power behind it remains the same.
But this november will be the test of your theory. If they get by with stealing another election it is all over for us.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Why would they bother to cancel 2008, now that they have

their theft methods perfected? The sheep will fall for it again. Why rock the boat with a formal cancellation when the outcome is assured?

[SmokingJacket]

17. Right -- keep everything as normal-looking as possible.

They've managed to get everything they want without doing anything that stirs people up too much, which cancelling the election certainly would.

[OKNancy]

8. Just so readers will know that not everyone here is so pessimistic

There will be elections in 2008. We also have a good chance to do well in 2006.
We have had troubled times before and still had elections. We had elections during the height of the Civil War, which was the most tumultuous time in our history.

There won't be a coup either. In order for such things to happen, you have to have the will of the people. It doesn't matter if you are a Democrat or a Republican, there would never be support for such a thing, be it calling off elections or a coup of some sort.

[AlinPA]

10. Yes, but in the past we did not have the sort of arrogance and disdain

we see now in the rpigs. These people are pigs and crazed with power. Don't forget they own the major means of communications : TV. (The idiot box)

[OKNancy]

11. I'll make a bet with anyone on DU, if you are still here in 2008

$100.00 to DU if there are no elections in 2008

Anyone?

---
If the Republicans have so much power, how do we know so much about what they are up to?
What I intend to do is not sit around and wring my hands, but actually work the system and do what I can to elect Democrats.

[Cyrano]

13. There's a difference between pessimism and realism.

Give me one iota of evidence that contradicts the scenario I've laid out above. Today's situation can't be compared to the Civil War. Back then, the North was united, as was the South. This time, it's the government itself that is the enemy of us all.

And as far as your thinking that a coup would require the will of the people, nothing has required our input, permission, or will for five and a half years now. Do you think a coup could be prevented with fairy dust or wishful thinking?

I find the scenario I've laid out above abhorrent. But why would Bush, Cheney, or any of the rest of the criminals who have stolen our country care what you or I think?

I wish you'd refute what I've laid out with something other than the power of positive thinking. Tell me why and how I'm wrong.

(P.S. I've got to get some chores done. I'll reply to your reply as soon as possible.)

[OKNancy]

26. It's not just you or I. Repubicans and Democrats alike

would never stand for such a thing.
God I hope we win big in 2006 and 2008 for more reasons than you could ever guess.

[rinsd]

35. Realism equals cancelled elections?

How stupid would that be? Why not just steal them again?

"Back then, the North was united, as was the South"

United? What history did you learn? Not familiar with Maryland? The draft riots? The uneasy alliance of some of the union? The Copperheads? And the South also had its conflicts especially in the creation of the Confederate government.

"
And as far as your thinking that a coup would require the will of the people, nothing has required our input, permission, or will for five and a half years now. "

Really things like the Iraq War which had over 70% to start? Or the Patriot Act which was grudingly supported? Or the 2002 & 2004 elections which while tainted still showed a great deal of support for these policies.

"Give me one iota of evidence that contradicts the scenario I've laid out above."

Straw man. It is your supposition and leap of faith that makes the argument in the first place.

There will be no cancelled elections. It doesn't even make sense when looked through the frame you have provided. Why eliminate the semblance of consent of the people? Why would an election that one can control represent any serious obstacle to complete domination?

[Cyrano]

41. Well, I guess I can breath more easily now that you've informed me that

there will be no canceled elections.

What I laid out in the original post was a possible scenario, not a prediction of what will be.

As far as your take on a united North and a united South during the Civil War, of course there were exceptions which is to be expected.

And I stand by the statement that a coup would not require the will of the people. The reference to a coup meant a military coup to take the Bushies out of office. And if they decided to pull one off, who's to stop them?

I do, however, agree with you that they could go on just stealing future elections as they have with past ones. This would be the rational thing to do. The problem is, we're not talking about rational people. We're talking about thugs who want it all and if they can't have it, they'll take it by any means necessary.

None of us wants to see that original scenario come about. But I've learned to expect the worst from the sociopaths who are holding all the levers of power.

[blues90]

25. if the black boxes still exist then who knows

look , i don't have any faith in elections anymore . We have had 5 years to try to do something to make certain elections were fair . In 2004 the black boxes gave bush the votes and since then more states have these damn things . RFK jr has the artical in rolling stone and as of right now this is about the only thing out there that may bring awarness and this will only help the dems or progressives the reugs like stealing elections .

I have never seen so much going on daily in politics in my entire 57 years , this seems to have no end with all the wrong doings and all the horrors that continue on .

Whether or not there are 08 elections if we don't fix the voting system we then have no control over the outcome , we need to prevent this from happening again not try to fix it after . You know we won in 2000 and 04 and look where we are now . How much proof does one need to know where the problem lies .

If you are still young and in november and 08 the dems are win and are true to their people then you may have some hope for a reasonable future . If not and you are past 40 you will never see a change before you die . look at all the damage done to the middle class and blue collar worker and the poor are just out of the picture more than ever . Where the hell are all the new jobs going to come from to replace all the ones lost and still many more will go before bush is gone .

So if the midterms are stolen and no one protests in great numbers the we are sunk and will continue toward a full dictatorship and be doomed .

I hope I'm wrong but logic based on what has and is happening tell me I'm not . We let them go too far and now what ? An election is just that , you still have to find ways to fix this mess and it's a big one folks , real big .

[acmejack]

9. I still anticipate some excuse to initiate martial law before the election

[raccoon]

12. I could easily see the US not having an election in 2008.

The junta considered that in 2004.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/elec-j13.shtml

Not that there was a real presidential election in 2004 anyway. Or 2000.

[Neecy]

14. I think your scenario is entirely possible

A couple of days ago, there was an article in LBN about the financial records spying. There was an administration quote that Bush was 'exercising his emergency economic powers'. Huh?

Now, it's possible that they think the PA gives them the legal means to do this (I doubt it) but when has this administration ever used the term 'emergency powers'? This is a term that dictatorships use when they're seizing power. We should be very concerned that this term is being introduced - it's like they're getting us used to the idea of 'emergency powers'...and notice they've substituted this for 'war powers'. Alarm bells should be going off about this. They can declare anything an 'emergency' and do anything, like cancel elections and whatnot.

[BuhByeChimp]

15. I don't think this would happen.

King George may spend us into a third world country, but democrats, republicans, independents, etc., would rise up and depose King George if he tried to retain the Presidency.

[Cyrano]

27. I hope you're right, but given the backbone we've seen in congress to

date, I'm skeptical about their doing anything.

If the thugs in power had tried to pull off everything they've done within a period of a month or two, you would have heard congress, the media and everyone else screaming their heads off. But their much smarter than that and have been using the "boiling frog" approach.

[hogwyld]

36. Why would the pukes rise up?

They have their boy in power, and from the few pugs I know, they would love to have King George in power forever, or until the rapture comes and gets them...

[rockymountaindem]

16. People were saying the same thing before the 2004 election

that Bushco would find some reason to suspend the election, etc. It didn't happen then, it isn't happening now, and so I doubt it will happen in the future. I just think you're plain wrong on this.

[JCMach1]

18. and we know how well 2004 turned-out...

There are many ways to steal an election...

We may not see a real election again in our lifetimes...

[FUGW]

20. Your probably right,

I just hope they don't get tired of stealing the elections because it could get ugly than.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi FUGW!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[FUGW]

19. In the movie The Trails of Henry Kissinger Alexander Haig said

In the movie The Trails of Henry Kissinger Alexander Haig said, should we have just sat back and watched as communism took hold in our hemisphere just because the Chilean people were irresponsible enough to elect a Communist president. If they try it here they will justify it by saying the American people are not responsible enough to choose their leadership. They will than say we will do it for you. I wonder who they will pick?

[knitter4democracy]

22. Al Haig's evil. I can't stand him.

He said that the four martyred churchwomen ran a roadblock in El Salvador when they were kidnapped, brutally beaten, raped, murdered, and left in a ditch to rot. He basically said that they deserved it, and our government did nothing.

[knitter4democracy]

21. Even Stalin still had elections.

We'll still have elections--the votes just won't be counted correctly, and we'll have little choice on whom to vote for. They'll still happen, though, to make people think that everything's okay.

[lonestarnot]

23. Well then we'd be with the status quo and no one will notice any diff.

[deaniac21]

24. Very dramatic.

[Cyrano]

28. The point is that I fear that our democracy may be gone for good.

Your badly mistaken if you think I posted this for dramatic purposes.

[deaniac21]

30. Your is a pronoun.

[Cyrano]

32. You're absolutely right. Let me know when you have something

meaningful to say and I'll pay attention. Until then, adios.

[deaniac21]

43. Very dramatic.

[Clarkie1]

31. Congratulatons, you win the hyperbole award today! nt

[Cyrano]

33. And you are to be congratulated for making a meaningful

contribution to this discussion. If you don't agree with me, fine. But at least attempt to disagree by dissecting what you consider to be the flaws in the scenario I've laid out.

[rinsd]

34. A different post repeats the theme but is more detailed

[Cyrano]

38. Please be more specific. Do you have a link?

[rinsd]

40. Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1531119&mesg_id=1533887

Though I have to apologize a little for the tone. I was in the midst of something heated.

My basic point is even assuming the worst why bother cancelling elections? It just does not make sense.

[Cyrano]

44. Sorry. I thought you were referring to a different thread. I responded

to your post a little while ago and while I don't agree with all of it, you're right that they don't have to go to the extreme lengths that I posed. However, I believe that given the choice between finesse and violence, the Bushies will always choose violence. They have a need to prove how macho they are (as long as it's someone else's blood being spilled).

[lutefisk]

37. Military coup? The regime has spent 5 years purging the military

The way they have strategically concentrated unchecked power throughout the federal government and filled critical positions with (usually unqualified) loyalists is enough evidence for me to believe "they" do not intend to give up control of this country. What are they going to do- just hand over the monster they've created to someone outside the family??

[titoresque]

39. I agree with everything you've said except.......

why are we fooling ourselves to think that there will be a real election this year? We're not going to "win" house or senate......and if we do it's only because it's planned that way. Not because we won.
Why rig 2 or more elections and then quit rigging them? Shit, they've gotten away with worse, why stop now?

[Hubert Flottz]

42. You've got that Reich!