sex offender laws need to be changed.

[catmother]

i'm watching MSNBC and this man is on. he is a sex offender. when he was 24 he had consentual sex with a 16 year old. he did not know that she was under age. he served 5 years and now has this "scarlet letter" attached to him.

now back when i was 17 i lost my virginity to a 28 year old man. it was consentual. should he have gone to jail? i don't even know if he knew my age but it wouldn't have mattered.

back when i was young (a long time ago) many young girls (under 18) had older boyfriends who they were having sex with.

comments?

[Blue_In_AK]

1. Yep - been there, done that.

I could have put away a few guys, too. Also -- and I'm not saying whether I think this is bad or good -- what constitutes "lack of consent" these days is a lot different than it used to be. We didn't have such a term as "date rape." I probably could have made a few mil off of some of the "sexual harassment" I endured in the workplace, as well.

[catmother]

2. doesn't it seem like we're moving backwards?

[Blue_In_AK]

4. I think much more distinction needs to be drawn

between the truly predatory sexual offenders and the guys that just get caught up in this sort of thing. Also distinctions needs to be made between pedophiles and rapists of whatever degree. From what I know, these are two are completely separate issues, yet they're lumped together. Blanket condemnation of all sex offenders as untreatable, and the resulting shunning by the community, really ticks me off.

[catmother]

10. interesting. i was just telling my husband the other day about

a boss that i had. i was 17. of course, they didn't know that when they hired me. it was 1959. whenever i went over to my boss' desk (he was about 60) he would put his hand under my skirt and say "if i were 20 years younger i would throw you a lay that could kill you". i didn't dare say anything. i wanted to keep my job.

[Blue_In_AK]

15. My first boss out of college was like that, too...

I was 21, so not a minor, but the guy was in his 40s and used to come up behind me and try to kiss my neck all the time and actually chased me around my desk a few times - just like in the movies. He was so repulsive.

[catmother]

17. my boss was repulsive too. he always had bad breath. the

funny thing was i was still a virgin and he was talking to me like that.

[catmother]

3. my sister started having sex at 15. when she was about 17

she was having sex with a guy in his late 20s. when he found out that she wasn't on the pill he told her to tell our mom that her period was irregular and that the doctor woulld prescribe the pill.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

6. personally, I agree with you.....

People have a real tendency to be absolutist about sex-- they tend to forget the degree to which sex often muddles judgement and common sense for ordinary people, people who are not psychopaths or sexual predators, or people who just express garden variety selfishness in their sexual conduct. That's not laudable, but is it criminal?

I was molested as a child by a neighbor while visiting my grandmother-- behavior that even in those days was criminal. I've argued on a couple of occasions that, quite frankly, I was not harmed and bear the man no ill will. I suspect that he simply didn't know what else to do with his desires, and he was as much a victim as I was. But many instances of sexual "transgressions" are far more ambiguous than that, with one or both participants being somewhat confused about what is happening, what the expectations are, what the other participant wants, what constitutes consent under different circumstances, etc.

[texastoast]

7. When you are about 14

You know what you are doing. Some kids know younger than that. I certainly did and lost my virginity to a much older man when I was a "child."

Kings and queens have ruled at these tender ages, yes, with guidance, but give kids credit. As long as it is not truly rape, it is not rape when a teenager has consensual sex with older people. Nope, not for me anyway. I would not have wanted to file charges and would have been really pissed if my parents had.

Katherine Hepburn wrote an anecdote about when she and a friend would walk home. The neighborhood flasher (whom everyone knew and warned their children about) caught the two girls walking one time and showed them his pee-pee and ran off. Both prepubescent, the girls just laughed and laughed and told their friends. Their mothers scolded them for thinking it was so funny. End of drama.

Methinks we are a nutty, nutty bunch heading back to Victoriana when all things sexual were publicly suppressed and things were really very brutal behind closed doors.

[Clark2008]

57. King and queens may have ruled at those ages, but you'll

find that most were immature and the country's suffered as a result.

Did I want to have sex at 14 - oh, yes, as long as my partner was Pete Townshend or Paul McCartney (and I was a teenager in the 80s - these men were my father's age, but I found them MUCH more interesting than Duran Duran).

Did I? No. And I'm damn glad I didn't. I didn't lose my virginity until I was nearly 18 and with a very steady boyfriend.

I'm not a prude about sex - ask my husband. But, I DO think it's done too much, too often and not with the right people. It can be animalistic, don't get me wrong, but, to be done right, it requires some maturity.

I don't advocate going back to the Victorian Era, by any means, but I do think we need to better enable our children to WAIT. Afterall, the consequences of sex, even with using birth control, can mean a lifetime of catering to someone you don't want (either a spouse OR a child OR both), a lifetime of caring for a disease or it can result in a death sentence.

Sex is a very, very good thing - but shouldn't be shared with everyone you meet. Heck, I made my now husband sit up and take notice because I didn't hop into bed with him the first night I met him even though the attraction was thick like butter and sweet like honey - or even the first several dates. In other words, I made him chase me until I caught him. ;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Agreed.

Oh, I almost forgot...

:popcorn:

[Sapere aude]

9. I met a girl who told me she was 18. We went out several times.

I did not have sex with her since I wanted to get to know her better. I wasn't a wam bam thank you mam kind of guy. A few weeks after we started going together she told me she was 15! I was 21! Man was I glad I got to know her first.

[catmother]

12. when my son was 19 he brought home his girlfriend. i knew that

they were having sex. i didn't know she was 16 and he was not her first. i saw pictures of her when she was 13 and she looked 18.

[Sapere aude]

19. I'm not trying to sound like bragging but after that there were several

other "young" girls who came on to me. I was freaked for a time because so many young girls were hitting on older guys back then. You had to be really careful and check their drivers licenses. Maybe the girls were just trying to grow up fast or something, I don't know.

[catmother]

21. it's insane. when you're in the "throws of passion" you don't

think about asking for proof of age.

[5X]

11. All of the above sited 'sex offenders'* would now have to...

register and in Oklahoma could not live within
2000 feet of a school, daycare, or playground.
This makes the whole city of Tulsa off limits.

edit: * if caught.

[hughee99]

14. Don't forget about the guys who got drunk one night

and took a piss in the bushes of the parking lot.

[sable302]

16. That's half of Tulsa right there

Everyone's in danger of exile now. (not that exile from Tulsa's that bad - as a former Tulsan - just wouldn't want it to happen that way)

[catmother]

18. you know. my husband used to do that all the time. he wasn't

drunk. he just needed to pee. he said one time when he was a kid they were supposed to have a family outing the next day. well he took a piss out of his upstairs window and his mother thought it was raining and that they would have to cancel plans. lol

[sable302]

13. good luck with any of this

We've all been in sex crime freak-out mode for years now.

Didn't I hear somewhere that rapes are down 85% per capita from where they were in the 70's, and that's with increased reporting.
Wouldn't know it the way people run around scared all the time.

[mongo]

20. Not to mention

That in many states prostitution and indecent exposure can get you on the list.

The sex offender registries, the restrictions on where a person can live once they have served their time, etc., are all just a way to get us used to this sort of treatment.

Who will be the next group to be put on a list? Drug offenders? All felons? How can you ever have served your sentence, if once you get out all your neighbors know what you did?

[catmother]

29. exactly. if an adult rapes a child like many of them have i say

those are the sex offenders. lock them up and throw away the key.

[novalib]

22. "Consentual Sex" Between a 24-Year-Old and a 16-Year-Old???

The thought of a 24-year-old man and a 16-year old girl is just REVOLTING!

16-year-old CHILDREN are NOT capable of giving consent to older ADULTS!

I know several people who have been emotionally scarred -- FOR LIFE!! -- by older adults who made them think they were "consenting" to sex when they were 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16!!

LEAVE THE LAW AS IT IS!!

We MUST PROTECT the CHILDREN!!!!

[sable302]

23. What about an

18 YEAR OLD "MAN" AND A 16 YEAR OLD GIRL

BOTH STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL

WOULD YOU YELL AS MUCH ABOUT THAT

[novalib]

26. I Believe Some States Have Sensible Laws That

I believe that some states have sensible laws the permit consentual sex between children who are within one or two years of each other.

I don't have much of a problem with that.

BUT I have a REAL problem with the notion that a CHILD can "consent" to sex with someone 10 or 20 or 30 years older.

I've seen too many people who still bear the scars of such emotional abuse.

[sable302]

28. I don't think anybody here is wanting children to be abused

I do think there is, however, a recognition that we've gotten overzealous in calling everything a sex crime and treating all such crimes the same.

I, for one, don't think that your 26 year old and 16 year old scenario (illegal as it may be - depending on the circumstances mind you) should be treated the same way as serial rapist or even peeing in the bushes outside the bar at night, but as it is piratically all crimes that involve any part of the body are called sex crimes and are all treated (post release) the same way. A life sentence of exile.

[catmother]

33. exactly. another one i heard today was a girl was 17 and i

think the boy was 15. she gave him consentual oral sex. now years later she's labelled a sex offender.

[Clark2008]

58. Most states have a three-year buffer.

In other words, if the man is 18 and the teen is 15 or above, it's not statutory rape. Or if the woman is 19 and the teen is 16 or even 20 and 17.

Many thinking state legislators know that there are couples of that certain age where one day you're a minor and the next you're an adult, but it doesn't change your puppy love.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

24. 13 yr olds can marry in certain states in some circumstances.

in others, 15 yr old girls and 16 yr old guys.
and in at least one state, 14 yr old females can marry with parents' consent.

[catmother]

25. many 16 year olds are quite mature. like i said i was 17 and the

man was 28. at 16 i wasn't ready, but at 17 i was. my sister was ready at 15. she has no emotional scars.

[novalib]

27. I Would Prefer to PROTECT

I'm glad for you and your sister.

But I would certainly NOT favor relaxing the laws, even though you and your sister turned out OK.

At 14, 15, or 16, CHILDREN (with some exceptions) are SIMPLY TO VULNERABLE.

I would prefer to err on the side of PROTECTING the most vulnerable among us!

[sable302]

30. erring on the side of protection

can be a serious error. Religious extremists want to keep women and girls locked away to protect them (called respecting them and so forth). I guess you could say that we're heading in that direction, though. Perhaps if it saves one girl from abuse it would all be worth it. :sarcasm:

[catmother]

41. yes. religious extremists like jimmy swaggert -- remember

that perverted bastard -- got caught with his "pants down" a few times.

[sable302]

42. yes, but the point is protection

The 'if it saves one it is all worth it' sounds great on tv, but it makes no sense even from a utilitarian point of view.

You can always clamp down more and more. There's no end to it, really.

[novalib]

46. What Are YOU Talking About??!!

"You can always clamp down more and more"!!!!

More and more!!

No one here is advocating "clamping down" more and more!!!

Some of us are advocating enforcing the laws as we laways have.

And protecting innocent children the way we always have.

I HAVE SEEN THE EFFECTS OF ADULT SEXUAL ABUSE ON CHILDREN!!

IT IS HORRIBLE -- and it NEVER really goes away!!!

[sable302]

52. I'm not talking about allowing abuse on children

I'm talking about the need to not treat everything that we can call a sex crime the exact same
way.

But now, I'm tired of being yelled at. Whatever it is you've seen has made you very rigid and volatile when it comes to this issue. I'm sorry you were offended by the Dr. Laura thing, but it's still a fair comparison, I think.

[mike_c]

53. with respect, novalib....

I'm one of those folks who was "abused" as a child. It doesn't always leave scars, there is nothing inevitable about "horrible effects." As far as I'm aware, I was not harmed (and the abuse was homosexual, while I'm hetero, for what it's worth). I would not chose to repeat it, but the fact that it happened just isn't that big a deal. As for it never going away-- just about the only time I ever think about it is when commenting on it in threads like this one about sexual abuse. I did go through a brief time a couple of decades ago when I had to come to grips with being embarrassed about its homosexual nature, but that's not harm-- it's simply understanding, perhaps understanding something I would not have chosen, but there it is. All of the usual power issues were in play, but I was not harmed and at this end of my life, I'm not even really very embarrassed to talk about it anymore. It was sadder for the other guy, IMO.

[woo me with science]

56. I appreciate your having the courage to say this.

It is almost religion in the trauma industry in this country that every type of molestation is exactly the same, and being touched or looked at sexually in any way if you are under 18 (even if you are 17 years and 11 months old) will inevitably and horribly scar you for life. To suggest that some victims can be resilient, or that not everyone will need a lifetime of therapy, or that not every offender deserves exactly the same level of punishment, is to challenge the basic tenets of that religion.

The zeal to treat every offender the same is a serious problem that gets in the way of focusing resources where they are needed most, and identifying and punishing the worst predators. It also has the risk of teaching victims that their lives are scarred forever, no matter what the real circumstances of their abuse were. Although things are slowly changing for the better, a lot of what has been promoted as therapy for trauma over the past 20 years has probably made a lot of people worse rather than better.

[sable302]

59. wow

a voice of reason. you posted what I wanted to say. you just wrote it down so much better than I could.

[novalib]

43. You Don't Have to be a Religious Extremist

I'm no religious extremist.

And you don't have to be a religious extremist to want to protect CHILDREN from sexual predators!!

CHILDREN are immature -- THEY ARE NOT ADULTS!!!!!!!!

That is why we do not let them vote. That is also why we do not let them consume alcohol. It is also why they cannot purchase tobacco.

Surely if someone under 18 is unable to exercise discretion when it comes to purchasing alcohol or tobacco, they CANNOT give consent to have sex with an adult 10 or 20 or 30 years older.

And, yes, I recognize that SOME children under 18 are mature enough to purchase and use tobacco and alcohol responsibly. And there are, no doubt, some children who would vote more intelligently than lots of people over 18.

BUT laws that base maturity on AGE seem reasonable enough to me, especially when it comes to things like PROTECTING the most vulnerable among us from sexual predators!

[sable302]

48. do you even read my posts?

My POINT is NOT that WE shouldn't PROTECT children FROM predators!!!

It just seems you would want to protect a 16 year old from his/her 24 year old boyfriend/girlfriend or the shrubbery from someone's urine the EXACT same way as you would protect women and children from a SERIAL pedofile rapist! Life sentence on the sex offender reporting roles, no way to be a full member of society, life ruined for good.

You would ruin one innocent life to protect another, and that just makes no sense to me. And, lots of innocent people have their lives needlessly ruined over this issue.

Now, I can envision your argument at this point. It's something like 'but why don't you want to protect the children. I'm talking about protecting the children'

Holy cow! I have children. I WANT to protect children. Everybody does! Let's do it in a sane way, not a Taliban scarlet letter, lock them up, I don't care what they did, it's all worth it if we can think of the world as just an eeentsy bit safer sort of way.

Irrational fear is irrational fear no matter where you find it, even on a liberal board like this one.

[kiahzero]

31. You've got a nice little fantasy going on there.

Plenty of those pure 16 year olds that are "SIMPLY TO VULNERABLE" are already having sex. It isn't exactly a new thing for people that age to be having sex, either.

But I'll get out of the way of your "think of the children" spiel.

[guinivere]

32. I don't think of 16 year olds as children.

Not yet adults, but certainly not children.

[catmother]

34. i agree. and from what i hear kids are having sex younger

and younger -- and all the oral sex -- that they say isn't "sex".

[sable302]

35. It's a doctor laura line

I used to listen to her, and she would rag on 18 year old boys about having sex with their 16 year old girlfriends saying things like 'how do you explain your having sex with a SIXTEEN YEAR OLD CHILD!" As if the 18 year old boy is now a full fledged man or something. Half the time he was still in High School and just wanted a little bit of advice, but she'd treat them like sex offenders or something.

So, it sounds like Dr Laura to me, but I can't see why she'd be posting on a liberal board like this.

[catmother]

36. i wouldn't take any advice from doctor laura.

[sable302]

38. I'll take advice from her

as soon as I decide I want to learn how to scream at people in public and make them feel like absolute crap. She's good at that, and they keep coming back for more.

[catmother]

39. makes you wonder doesn't it? like the people who go on

dr. phil.

[novalib]

45. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!!!

I am certainly NOT Dr. Lara!

I frankly resent the implication that I even THINK llike that lowlife vermin!

[sable302]

49. I believe you that you don't think like her

But, you are beginning to sound like her.

[novalib]

44. How About When it Comes to Other Adult Activities

You don't consider 16-year-olds to be children?

Would you be in favor, then, of allowing 16-year-olds to do the following adult things:

Vote
Enter into Binding Contracts
Purchase and Consume Alcohol
Purchase and Consume Tobacco
Join the Military Without the Consent of Their Parents

??????
!!!!!!

[guinivere]

50. A 16 year old can drive a car, and have a job.

They can sign themselves up for the military while still in high school for when they graduate.

What then, is the age you would consider someone an adult?

I know a couple of people that are 28 and about 40 that act like children. Age does not make one mature and able to handle life.

[alarimer]

47. 8 years is a HUGE difference to a 16 year old.

That man had no buisness being with a 16 year old. none. It is a sex crime and he did time for it, rightfully so. Now what he did is not that same as if he molested a 10 year old, so I don't believe he should be on a registry (other than having to reveal to his employers that he committed a felony, the way other felons have to).

[catmother]

51. he did not know that she was 16. have you seen some of these

young girls?

[Guaranteed]

37. If this was another original post, taking the opposite view, the whole

tone of this thread would be different.

In other words, I've never seen this many people on DU standing up for people that have sex with minors. To be honest, though, it's not that surprising, because this is not a black-and-white issue.

[catmother]

40. no it's not a black and white issue. there's plenty of grey there.

[woo me with science]

54. Not to mention that we are dealing with a system with limited resources.

Every time you label teens who have sex with their girlfriends, or men who were duped by girls who lied about their age, as dangerous predators and subject them to the very same consequences as the people who target and molest little children, the efficiency with which we can track, convict, and punish the truly dangerous offenders is reduced.

The sexual hysteria in this country is really amazing to see. There is a whole political movement that seems driven to return us to a culture in which all women are perceived as helpless victims and all men are predators. We need to be able to make common sense distinctions here.

[catmother]

60. you're absolutely right. it's sexual hysteria.

[Mythsaje]

55. Before I even read the thread, I can tell you this...

My wife would heartily concur with you...and, as far as it goes, my first sexual experience was with a woman nearly twice my age at the tender age of 14. I don't believe it caused me any harm, but what do I know?

I know these kinds of threads vanish quickly, so...

[uppityperson]

61. "sex offence" can be any of these, need different outcomes

Here is a quick listing of sex things that I can think of, some are illegal, some not, some have been, some never have been. Depending on what you do, punishment should be different.

sex with partner within 3 yrs of your age, same sex
sex with partner within 3 yrs of your age, opposite sex
sex with partner within 3 yrs of your age, same race
sex with partner within 3 yrs of your age, another race
sex with partner NOT within 3 yrs of your age (each of the above categories)
public weinie wagging/masturbation/penis pumps meant to intimidate people via voyeurism
public weinie wagging/masturbation/penis pumps NOT meant to intimidate people, hoping no one will notice
sex with family member, unwilling
sex with family member, willing (yes, even kissing cousins are illegal some places)
violence masquerading as sex (can be some of the above categories)
Many more categories but it is a quick list.

Consensual sex should be fine. The age thing gets into intimidation, taking advantage of someone, I don't consider that necessarily consensual.

[SensibleAmerican]

62. 17 is legal in most states

However, the basis of stringent sexual offender laws hinges upon the explosion of sexual predators over the Internet, I believe. Even Canada is raising its age of consent from 14 to 16 in an effort to combat sexual predators from using Canada as some sort of haven.

As far as sexual offenders having to register, I believe citizens have the right to protect their families from threats in the community even at the potential expense of restricting opportunities for sex offenders to reenter the community, which probably wasn't going to happen anyways considering employers always could access your criminal record.

Recividism for sex crime has dropped consistently after Megan's Laws were enacted.