I believe Bush* plans to PRINT MONEY to cover spending. Hyperinflation!!!

[benburch]

Folks,

In addition to the debt topping 8.18 TRILLION DOLLARS, that is 8,180,000,000,000.00 by February, the Treasury Department has stopped reporting on M3, the number that reports the amount of federal reserve notes in circulation.

The unmistakable conclusion is that Bush plans to finance his petty fascism with the federal printing presses!

The effect of this will be swift and unavoidable; Hyperinflation. The value of all dollars in circulation or in various instruments will be diluted by the ratio of dollars printed to those "legitimately" in circulation.

This is essentially a hidden tax on all those who hold dollars, and a tax on all those with fixed incomes or in jobs where a pay rise to compensate for inflation is unlikely.

This is what Germany's Weimar Republic did which created the chaos that gave Hitler his opportunity to consolidate his power. At the height of the Weimar Republic hyperinflation, you needed a wagonload of banknotes to go buy food!

This is where WE are headed folks, and you may note that many of America's wealthiest people have been moving their dollars into Euros, Yen, commodities, and gold, and have been doing so for some time.

My only question; ARE WE GONNA RUN THESE CRIMINALS OUT OR NOT?

-Ben

[FlemingsGhost]

1. Bring. It. On.

Revolution!

[Flabbergasted]

7. The issue with revolution

The issue with revolution is you end up with a govt as corrupt as before or worse. Clarify this before your begin.

[benburch]

8. That was not the case in 1776...

it took almost two centuries to bring America down to this low point.

[FlemingsGhost]

9. Beat me to it, ben.

So many forget our own history when shuddering, and repelling the idea of revolution.

[Flabbergasted]

11. History?

The Romantic Notion that American Politics have not been corrupt till now.....

The difference now is free flow of info over the internet and extreme two party polarization.

What I'm saying is we better have a damn good idea what were aiming for before we start.

[FlemingsGhost]

13. Of course. I agree, wholeheartedly.

Most revolutions fail, simply because they lack a practical, fundamental objective of how society will be governed, there on in. Spontaneous, reactionary uprisings yield little change, in the end.

[Warpy]

25. Exactly, we got lucky once. It won't happen again

because instead of a simple country full of agrarian farmers with a small merchant class we now have a very complex country with a full blown aristocracy. Those boys aint gonna let go. They're just gonna change uniforms.

We still have enough vestiges of the rule of law to reassert the framework that has held this country together for two centuries. Let's hope it's not too late to use them. It's a self correcting system that acts when enough of us demand it.

[FlemingsGhost]

29. I disagree.

I think the U.S. could benefit greatly from a parliamentary system of governace, while still keeping the current basic framework, in tact. European nations provide numerous revolutionary changes to study and emmulate. I don't think it's an accident that most eventually evolved towards establishing a parliamentary apparatus that encourages coalition legislation.

Of course, such models are not perfect, but it appears to be the historical evolution of a democratic society, and I personally believe it has much more potential and general oversite than the "Good Cop/Bad Cop" ruse that's being passed off as "democratic," here in the U.S.

[julianer]

56. Parliaments are not necessarily any better

It is merely a form of government that is suitable for capitalism. Indeed the structures of government and law have evolved to meet the needs of capital.

In feudal times kings and barons ruled but, with the development of financial systems and banking the forms of government were restrictive of capital and had to go. So the 'glorius revolution' of 1688 in England, the French revolution of 1789 and of course the American revolution were all about changing the forms of government to allow wealthy non-kings and non-barons to rise to the top of the economic and political pile.

We don't need more parliamentary systems - we need democracy that is representative of people rather than representative of capital. In short we need an end to capitalism.

[sweetheart]

59. I agree after years living in both systems

The parliamentary system allows the citizens franchise, even fringe citizens, and this makes the
government more answerable to the "whole" population, something that "liberty" is all about after all.

With a bankrupt corporatocracy, perhaps there is indeed an opportunity to upgrade the
constitution so that the US is no longer running DOS 1.0

[nashville_brook]

27. not necessarily revolution. not necessarily 'worse.' it's up to us.

i want to know why i can't generate power off the underground streams around my house and sell it back to the utility co. i want to know why i can't get tax credits for making my house energy effcient and energy productive.

i want to know why people still have to commute to work.

i want to know why school hours and work hours are different.

i want to know why we haven't evolved yet. evolution before revolution.

[FlemingsGhost]

30. Evolution *is* revolution. (n/t)

Flem.

[benburch]

31. Ghandi shows us how to revolt when the opposition is superior in power.

Refuse.

If you work for the federal government, quit, or slow down.

If you work for a federal contractor, quit, or slow down..

The only ethical choice left to us is to withhold our labor. Atlas must Shrug.

[FlemingsGhost]

34. Yes! ... all we have left is how we earn and spend money

Still very fertile ground to make a statement.

Personally, I would love to see a tax revolt. It's bloodless, and would cripple the fascists. Alas, Americans still feel that have too much to lose. That will likely change ...

[benburch]

36. Tax revolt gives them a pretext to arrest people.

Quitting does not.

[gordianot]

43. You are correct but I am not sure that will happen this time.

It worked in India, the former Soviet Block, Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement, I am not sure about Joe Six Pack.

There are some very deluded (self centered, impatient, barely literate) people in this country looking to scapegoat someone. They are ripe for a demagogue who can construct a coherent sentence.

[julianer]

57. I agree entirely

It is the system that drives our behaviour and, put simply, if someone can make a profit out of fuel inefficiency and waste then things won't change.

Why not include mini generators in the water supply system - every time you use some water a little generator turns and provides some (tiny amount) of power to the grid? In the main arteries this would be quite a substantial amount. Because it would eat into the profits of power suppliers.

If we lived in a democracy we could decide such things for ourselves.

[brokensymmetry]

2. I agree with your analysis - kicked & nominated.

The significance of the Fed ceasing publication of M3 data can hardly be overstated.

The 2006 elections are pivotal; we need to get the House back so we can at least slow the juggernaut.

[Rainscents]

3. American people are going to get rude awakening!

[applegrove]

4. No - he knows the Chinese will just keep sucking up more and more.

Plus he can count on more trade with China to keep prices down. At the same time workers in the USA will have to face lower wages - and this is supposed to balance inflation caused by debt & oil.

Why all the government spendind has to be outside the country (full employment and dollars floating around in many hands inside the country would cause inflation). War it is!

[julianer]

58. That is the crucial point

If money is printed then the value of foreign debt holding reduces, leading to the countries holding US debt to want to offload, leading to the need to print more money, leading to....

So it is nothing more than a very short term 'solution' that is merely destabilising the tightrope walker even more.

[applegrove]

63. But there is a bugaboo in the system. China & others are growing so

fast that they want to hold foreign currency. And the US dollar is linga franka - the international currency. Because of its fiat values (acceptability around the world). And places like China are not going to be upping their dollar relatively to the USA one - because they want to quickly integrate all rural people into their industrial manufacturing sector - so they keep their yen artificially low - to allow for the massive transfer of farmers to workers at the fastest pace possbile.

As long as they do this - America can get away with more debt without paying the price.

As long as oil remains not $200 a barrel - as long as workers in the US face lower wages (or go into business for themselves instead of working for a company). As long as government spending is reduced inside the USA (as in closing down public schools) and increased in wars outside the USA - the stock markets will continue to roar.

So what are the wealthy sacrificing in the USA? Everyone else in the country are adjusting to huge changes and doing their part.

[FloridaPat]

5. That is also the same month the Iran bouse comes on line, unless

we invade it first. Oil will be starting to trade in Euros.

But it shouldn't matter - the ecnomy is in good shape, unemployment is tiny - just a bunch of lazy laggards sitting around watch TV. Things are going well in Iraq. We'll own those oil fields soon. Probably they don't want to spend the money on research. You know how usless scientific research is to the realm.

[serryjw]

19. By George.... .you got it!

Pat read this.Be sure to link over to the articles on Iran's oil Bourse and the significance to the US dollar! ( middle of page)
http://prudentinvestor.blogspot.com/2005/11/unpleasant-trend-fed-counters-by.html

[FloridaPat]

49. You've ruined my week you know. I had no idea what this was until

this week and the article you linked too. My God, what in the world are they doing to our country? How are they getting away with this? * has uped the money supply 40% since he got in office!

[Flabbergasted]

6. I heard this recently as well!

The only thing that is keeping America Intact at this point is people still having a consistant purchase power. An act like this would cause massive riots and protests. Martial law would be the only option at that point.

[sarcasmo]

10. Welcome to D/U Flabbergasted

You will find many of us here at D/U who believe in the Martial Law theory.

[Flabbergasted]

12. What?

You must be saying that its the goal of the Bush administration right?

[laylah]

15. Many of us believe

it would "...be much easier if were a dick-tater".

Welcome to one of the last sane places in this country of ours.

Jenn

edited 'cuz I can :evilgrin:

[sarcasmo]

21. Some of us have been saying that for quite some time.

[BamaBecky]

14. Plus THIS - and what does THIS mean?????

Rothschild to leave gold market <<Click here

Last Updated: Thursday, 15 April, 2004, 13:29 GMT 14:29 UK

NM Rothschild, one of the City's oldest merchant banks, has decided that profit takes precedence over history and is to withdraw from London's gold market.

[hvn_nbr_2]

16. I don't think they're *planning* a hyperinflation, but it's likely anyway

I think they're planning an inflation and think they can control it. I thought that as soon as they announced stopping M3 reporting, but I had been thinking they'd probably do it even before that announcement. The announcement made me sure.

The only thing going well in the economy is housing, and that can't go forever without the rest of the economy. If housing prices fall, then the whole economy will go in the dumpster. The only way they can prop up housing (and the economy) and deal with the federal debt is inflation. This evil cabal probably also thinks it's an added benefit to screw people on Social Security and other low fixed incomes.

They probably think they can control it, but they're playing with fire.

[RC]

23. Housing is not doing well.

New construction is dropping. The cost of owning is going up.
I know 2 people in different parts of the country that are hurting. One because they can't sell their old house and the other because they can't keep the old place rented. Taxes, condo fees, specials, everything is going up.

[AllegroRondo]

61. Housing accounted for almost 7% of GDP last year

(heard on NPR yesterday morning)

That is more than tech accounted for at the height of the late 90's boom, and is unsustainable. It doesnt mean that the housing market will crash, but you can definitely expect home sales to fall this year.

[librechik]

17. this is what happens when you have a leader with ignorance and contempt

for history. They repeat old, much repeated mistakes that even morons would avoid.
Can we say Argentina?

[FloridaPat]

50. But how in the world did he get this far? Yeah, I know -family connections

and money. Is America that stupid/star-struck/gullible/whatever that someone like this actually has not only a chance to make a good living being an incompetent failure, but acutally make it to the White House to screw up the most powerful and one of the richest countries in the world? And 40% MOL think he's doing a good job?

[librechik]

54. it's a mystery

and a travesty

[oregonindy]

18. go on down the rabbit hole...careful though you might not like the ending

1. The federal reserve is not a federal agency..its private banks
http://www.rense.com/general29/ringring.htm

2. inflation has eaten away buying power from the dollar since the inception of the federal reserve
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

3. constitution says only gold and silver as money
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/gnazzo/2005/silver1.html


4. the change in your pocket is pretty much worthless metal unless its 1964 and earlier
http://www.coinflation.com

5. illegal for banks to loan credit
http://www.suijuris.net/forum/showthread.php?t=718


ask yourself what is money and where does it come from then research it

[nashville_brook]

22. then ask yourself what your LABOR really is

what's its value derived from?

what's a life worth?

what would happen if some little technological advance rendered YOU irrelevant?

what do we do when there's no more labor needed? garden? make things?

these bunnies have been running lose in my mind for a while.

[banana republican]

20. Great I can pay off my Mortgage and make a milliion on the sale of

my home....

[RC]

26. Sell it to whom...?

[benburch]

28. The rich bastards with the gold and Euros. nt

[RC]

32. Aaah, so they can tear it down and build casinos.

Got'cha.

[benburch]

33. Or rent it back to us forever, keeping the USA poor for the rest of time.

The whole USA becomes a company town.

[Justice Is Comin]

24. We're on a rocket sled to

the 1929 great depression.

[earth mom]

39. I've been thinking the same thing for awhile now....

here comes The Great Depression 2! :scared:

[Sydnie]

35. Gates got out weeks ago

Changed over to Euro's. Follow the big money men, they will show us the way to protect what we can. Time to buy some Euros!

[benburch]

37. And Warren Buffet is hedging in gold. nt

[Cleita]

38. I knew this was coming before you even mentioned it.

Having lived in countries who covered their debts by issuing paper money, I was wondering when they were going to get around to it. They wouldn't be good banana republic crooks if they didn't have this little move up their sleeves. It also makes your debts easy to pay off, but your life savings worthless. So much for the health savings accounts and the retirement savings accounts eh?

I have been waiting for one of my savings to mature to invest in euros myself. I hope I am not too late. No, I am not rich. I just have a little retirement nest egg.

[Taxloss]

40. I doubt it.

Inflation aids those with debts and harms those with holdings. It would hurt the rich to inflate, unless they divested, which would destroy the economy to no-one's benefit. Foreign holders of currency would sell pronto. Besides, isn't that decision in the hands of the Federal Reserve, not Bushco?

[Cleita]

41. Ha, ha, ha, The Federal Reserve. n/t

[Taxloss]

42. Thank you, John Maynard Keynes. n/t

[Cleita]

45. The Federal Reserve is in the hands of the Bushistas.

Really, it is. It took them the first term, but they did it.

[Taxloss]

46. Nevertheless, it seems a counter-intuitive thing to do.

Why just wreck the American economy? Out of spite? I mean, it's in poor enough shape right now. Collapsing it doesn't seem to be in their interest.

[Cleita]

48. I, nor you are wrecking the economy, they are.

Those who are pulling the strings already are in sweet places. What makes you think they care about us. Our economy is nothing to them anymore other than what they can exploit to the end and make us subservient.

[rman]

60. Inflation in the 1920's didn't exactly hurt the rich -

nor did the subsequent depression hurt the rich.
In both eras the poor got poorer and the rich got richer.

http://www.amatecon.com/gd/gdcandc.html

[robcon]

44. There is no 'printing of money' to finance the debt.

The quote "The significance of the Fed ceasing publication of M3 data can hardly be overstated." is silly.

No economist has trusted M3 for a decade or two, since so much of U.S. currency is in foreign countries, and has no relevance to the U.S. economy. The total amount of currency is a tiny amount of the U.S. money supply, and is not accurately measurable. Giving up on M3 is a recognition of what economists have been doing for a long time.

[davepc]

64. misreply

wrong spot

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

47. I've pondered this as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5602012

[Telly Savalas]

51. Pure speculation.

Our nation's debt/GDP ratio is bad, but it's been worse:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200505190008

12 years of GOP rule from '81 through '92 made it even worse than it is now, but a few years of a Democratic presidency was all it took to reverse that trend.

As was pointed out above, the M3 issue is irrelevant, and the money supply isn't expanded by printing money.

So it really looks like predictions of hyperinflation are coming out of thin air. The dollar will probably take a bit of a beating against the Euro for the remainder of Bush's presidency as a result of his idiotic fiscal policy, but there's really nothing to suggest that hyperinflation will arise.

What's with all the apocalyptic prophecies at DU? Between Iraq, the health care crisis, poverty, the discarding of the 4th Amendment, and the denial of civil rights to the GLBT community, don't we have enough real problems to tackle without having to invent new ones?

[onenote]

66. apocalyptic (and uninformed)

I'm amazed at the number of folks that blindly accept doomsday posts despite any number of posts that point out the doomsday fallacy. Admittedly, given some of the crap that is real, I can understand how people will accept the worst possible interpretation of everything. But inventing rebuttable concerns only undermines our ability to convince people of the legitimacy of the real concerns.

onenote

[EVDebs]

52. We've become just like Argentina. Way to go Greedspan !

[Blue Velvet]

53. Jesus - these "people" do have all the bases covered, don't they?!

(people is in quotes because I'm not altogether sure about their humanity)

But seriously, it seems like this administration actually TRYING to foment revolution at this point... Sheesh.

[texpatriot2004]

55. Thank you BenBurch for this thread nm

[pat_k]

62. Article -- Asset Hyperflation ( insidious effects of rarely discussed)

Asset Hyperflation
http://www.investmentrarities.com/bestofjimcook07-04-05.html

This article makes some points about the insidious effects of inflation that we rarely hear.

As noted in the article, inflation severs the the link between effort and productivity. The vast majority suffer while footing the bill for the "winners."

A couple quotes from the article:

"In a free enterprise system, with an honest and stable money, there is dominantly a close link between effort and productivity, on the one hand, and economic reward on the other. Inflation severs this link. Reward comes to depend less and less on effort and production, and more and more on successful gambling and luck."

"It is not merely that inflation breeds dishonesty in a nation. Inflation is itself a dishonest act on the part of government, and sets the example for private citizens. When modern governments inflate by increasing the paper-money supply, directly or indirectly, they do in principle what kings once did when they clipped coins. Diluting the money supply with paper is the moral equivalent of diluting the milk supply with water. Notwithstanding all the pious pretenses of governments that inflation is some evil visitation from without, inflation is practically always the result of deliberate governmental policy."

Mr. Hazlitt concluded his case against inflation. "It is harmful because it depreciates the value of the monetary unit, raises everybody’s cost of living, imposes what is in effect a tax on the poorest….wipes out the value of past savings, discourages future savings, redistributes wealth and income wantonly, encourages and rewards speculation and gambling at the expense of thrift and work, undermines confidence in the justice of a free enterprise system, and corrupts public and private morals."

[davepc]

65. Print money to pay off the debt? huh?

And do what, pay the nations creditors by sending over a guy with a silver mettle suitcases handcuffed to his arm?

The actual amount of paper money in the money supply is pretty low as a percentage of the total amount of money in circulation.

The Fed ending reporting on M3 has nothing to do with plans to print more greenbacks. Its virtually impossible to calculate the amount of M3 out there because so much is in foreign countries. Why should the Fed waste time and resources producing a number that is unreliable and understood to be woefully inaccurate.

Furthermore, M3 has virtually nothing to do with printed currency. M0, that is paper bills and coins in circulation is about $680 billion. M1 and M2 are about 1.4 TRILLION and 6.5 TRILLION respectively.

I'll worry when the Goverment announces they are no longer converting a private bank electronic credit for a printed bank note on a one for one basis.