15 years for looting liquor during Katrina disaster.

[Eric J in MN]

From
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/06/29/katrina-looters.html

Three people convicted of looting a liquor store in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina last year were given the harshest sentence possible in a Louisiana court on Wednesday.

The three were convicted on May 2 of stealing 27 bottles of wine and liquor, six cases of beer and a case of wine coolers over the course of a week after the storm first hit. Coralnelle Little, Rhonda McGowen, and Paul C. Pearson, all of Kenner, La., received 15-year sentences. The district judge said he wanted to send a message with the sentences.

Pearson's lawyer called the sentences "excessive" and said he would appeal.

==============================

During an emergency, when no one is around to sell goods, it should be legal to take cheap goods from stores. These three people don't deserve a day in prison, let alone 15 years. They saw their homes wiped out and needed and drink when there wasn't a clerk to sell the alcohol.

[Quakerfriend]

1. HOW ABOUT A SENTENCE FOR *CO. and his ilk!

He's at McCain's BD party licking icing off his fingers and pretending to play the guitar!

Every day my blood boils more furiously!

[Kagemusha]

2. I totally disagree about legal to take goods from stores but

I do think that this sentence is completely excessive.

[Eric J in MN]

3. If they had taken food instead of alcohol, would you still want them

prosecuted?

[stevedeshazer]

18. Beer is food

n/t

[4_TN_TITANS]

71. LOL... I'm proof of that... n/t

[Kagemusha]

26. Look, not prosecuting vs. making it legal is a HUGE difference.

It's like the difference between pardoning a crime and legalizing all similar crimes. I just can't support the latter.

Now if these people were using alcoholic drinks as an alternative to water, the sentence is monstrous. If it's 'a few guys needing a drink', it's illegal, but not worth 15 years. I don't understand why what I'm saying is so horrible.

[MercutioATC]

33. Who uses alcohol as a water substitute?? It dehydrates you.

Let's forget that idea...it doesn't fly.

[Kagemusha]

49. Wine was used by early river explorers. But um, not the point I think

I don't necessarily agree that drinking a glass of wine results in a net loss of water. I'd happily agree without any statistics whatsoever that a glass of potable water is a lot better in a survival situation. Going after an alcoholic beverage out of desperation is not impossible... it's just unlikely to the point of not being credible. Alas, the judge probably took that into consideration in slapping on the deliberately cruel and excessive 15 year sentence.

[MercutioATC]

65. ANY ingested alcohol results in a net loss of water.

Alcohol dehydrates you. Period.

http://www.jrussellshealth.com/alcweath.html


That aside, yes, 15 years was too much.

[Beaverhausen]

68. Maybe all the water had already been taken

this is insane.

[MercutioATC]

69. So it makes sense to further dehydrate yourself?

Show me that all of the water, all of the fruit juice, all of the canned fruit and vegetables...essentially all of the non-alcoholic stuff was gone and I might buy that explanation.

Until then, these people were just looking for free booze. It's not survival, it's capitalizing on a state of emergency for personal gain.

[Beaverhausen]

70. How do you know that this wasn't all there was left?

I'm sorry but you are simply heartless. You have no idea about the situation these people faced.

[MercutioATC]

72. How do you know it was? The volume of alcohol taken says something.

They didn't grab a six-pack because they were dying of thirst. They tried to run off with cases of liquor. If you really want to believe that the entire store had been stripped EXCEPT for the booze, that's your perogative. The fact that they only stole alcohol says something about intent to me.


...this isn't the first time you've called me "heartless". I'm sure it won't be the last.

[SensibleAmerican]

42. Taking food as a neccessity is not illegal

As the participants are acting under duress.

[me b zola]

43. That depends upon what race you are

We watched together as an online forum and saw the media treat whites as though they were surviving when they gathered food, and blacks called looters for the same behavior.

Everyone in NO was under duress, but media coverage and "justice" were seperate and unequal.

[Kagemusha]

48. I read the original thread with those allegations. What I gathered was

the behavior was not the same - per se. But it was similar. Similar enough that you couldn't floss between the two. Having said that, the same source didn't produce both versions so you had one part of the media saying one thing and another part of the media saying something else. People just see the "MSM" as a single identity and voila, a politically convenient myth was born. Though, a myth grounded in what I would call a very poor use of words to describe the *whites* - as far as I'm concerned, it's looting. I'm willing to pardon looting in an emergency... but I'm not willing to call it anything but looting, for whites or anyone else, IMVHO.

I just wanted to say that once - and take the flames now - because on this forum I don't see it as useful or appropriate to make a habit of it. But to me, you treat people the same. Period.

[fortyfeetunder]

53. Ah yes, findng vs. looting.

I haven't read the article yet -- so these weren't the folks that found the liquor?

[Kagemusha]

63. Wish this article had more facts on the case. It's inhibiting.

So that said, a related article mentioned that one of the three people convicted was later hired by the store she was accused of looting. So they likely were all well aware of the location of this liquor shop and went to where they knew there'd be abandoned booze.

You jogged my memory, though... the original reason that there was finding vs. looting is because in the "finding" case, reporters did not see how a store had originally been busted open, but in the case of "looting", viewed by separate reporters, a black woman tossed a brick through a window to shall we say, aid the process of "finding" along. In spite of that, people decided they were 'the same behavior' and condemned prima facia racist reporting.

I understand, but I don't have to disagree with what my two eyes read on the DU thread as this was breaking.

[MissWaverly]

8. some of those stores were declared total losses

and the owners said that they were open to survivors, many who had nothing and were in a life
or death situation, some of these people may have taken this booty just to sell to help them
get away. I have never been in a life or death situation like that, though I was in a burning
building twice, you just don't know how you are going to react. I must admit I was very scared
trying to exit an eight story building that had been torched by some wacko.

[MissWaverly]

4. What do you get for looting a entire country

according to Greg Palast in Armed Madhouse, page 75

"In all, 363 tons of U.S. currency were shipped to Iraq. Where did the cash go?"

Oh, you have an (R) after your name, oh, it's okay, let's beat up on these dems over in
the corner, one of them has a bottle of Jim Beam in his pocket. HEY YOU!

[BrownOak]

27. Re-elected apparently n/t

[Selatius]

5. Hell, as a libertarian socialist, I'd say what they did was justified.

I'd rather drink liquor and bottles of water than polluted river water or tap water any day of the year. With no functioning government and no functioning economy, mutual cooperation is really the only thing you have left, and if that means breaking windows to take liquor, food, water, the things needed for living, then it should be done. I would've followed Anarchist principles if I were planted in such a desperate situation, and several groups of people did. Small food distribution co-ops emerged, and several groups banded together to share what limited resources there while the city was still under water.

[MercutioATC]

7. Liquor is not a survival need...it actually dehydrates you.

I think the sentence is excessive, but looting liquor is a LOT different than looting food or clothing.

[Selatius]

11. Oh, I think it was.

80 percent of the city was underwater. All that water and none of it was drinkable because of sewage and chemical toxins. I'd get my hands on any drinkable liquid I could find. Even if that liquor proves to dehydrate you, I hardly would say that's an excuse to let it go as alcohol also has antiseptic qualities on wounds and can be used as fuel for cooking fires if the proof content is high enough.

In the end, I agree the sentence is harsh in any case. If they had taken the alcohol and used it how I just described it, then yeah, I'd agree completely. I'd agree less so though if they simply did it to get buzzed; I'll admit.

[Triana]

37. Agreeing w/ MercutioATC here...

The sentence is excessive. However, if they were stealing food or clothing instead of liquor, I think that should be totally allowed in such circumstances - for survival - with zero penalty. But ya don't need booze to survive.

[Kerrytravelers]

38. You're right! You don't need booze to survive.

I wonder if these people knew that, though. They might, in a panic, think "it's liquid. It might work." In a desperate situation, I might think the same thing if I think something is better than nothing. Plus, it's better than the sewer water. I hope I'm never in a position to have to make choices like that.

[Kerrytravelers]

6. If I were a betting person, I'd put money on the bet that those convicted

were not white or wealthy.

:shrug: Just a guess.

[MercutioATC]

9. How many white wealthy people loot liquor stores?

(I only used "white" because it was part of your post)

Of COURSE the people who were convicted weren't wealthy. Wealthy people don't loot liquor stores.

[Kerrytravelers]

12. You're right. Wealthy people don't "loot."

The white people or those more wealthy were "scavenging" for their families. The poor and people who aren't white are the "looters."

I'll never forget how hateful that news coverage was by certain "news" channels.

[MercutioATC]

16. The media aside, I'm talking about economics, not race.

Poor white people loot, too. I was simply pointing out that wealthy people don't loot OR scavenge, so it's ridiculous to say "If I were a betting person, I'd put money on the bet that those convicted were not white or wealthy." Of COURSE they weren't wealthy...

[dysfunctional press]

19. that is not necessarily true- not by a long shot.

just look what bush and his buddies have done to our treasury.

but beyond that- i've known plenty of very wealthy people who would have been among the first to 'take advantage' of any situation where chaos reigns.
not only would they be looting- they'd organize & pay people to loot for them as well.

[Kerrytravelers]

22. So, you were being serious in your reply and actually picking apart

an off-handed remark?

Ok. :shrug:


I mean, if we really want to be nit-picky, by definition, looting is taking items and scavenging is finding items when looking them... so, wealthy people actually can, by definition, loot or scavenge. If stranded in a life or death situation, I would guess that wealthy people could quickly learn how to loot or scavenge. I was referring to the way the media- in particular faux news- referred to the victims of the hurricane.

[MercutioATC]

31. No, I was objecting to the innuendo.

The suggestion was that only poor non-whites get convicted of looting...the wealthy don't.

I'm simply observing that the reason for that is probably that only the financially disadvantaged loot (bacause the wealthy have no reason to loot).

[Kerrytravelers]

35. I'm thinking that if this disaster struck so many wealthy people, before

help arrived, if they "looted," they wouldn't be tried. It would be assumed that they were taking things because they needed them. But when poor people take things, it's stealing. Kind of like if you're wealthy and kinda crazy acting, you're "extrinsic," but if you're poor, you're just plain nuts.

[raccoon]

61. "Wealthy people don't "loot." " Well, yes, they do,

but they don't loot liquor stores.

Just corporations, as Kenny Lay and many others did.

[MercutioATC]

66. That's not what we're talking about here and you know it.

There's a specific legal issue we're discussing here. White-collar crime is not "looting" and more than murder is.

[LittleClarkie]

10. I wonder if the cops who were stealing Red Cross goods and hording them

will do any time.

[Kerrytravelers]

14. Of course not.

It was only the poor black residents who will be tried for "looting." :grr:

[Webster Green]

13. That sentence is unbelievably cruel...

That isn't right.

[Swamp Rat]

21. "That sentence is unbelievably cruel" - I don't know how else to put it.

It doesn't surprise me, though. I know Kenner and Metairie very well (suburbs of New Orleans where the earliest white flight landed). There are 15 yr old David Duke signs still visible in those areas, where one might encounter the very worst of humanity... cookie cutter, banal 'evil.'

[Rex]

15. Better to 'find' things, then 'loot' things.

And over in this corner - Rush 'just can't get arrested' Limpballs! :eyes:

[uppityperson]

17. link to LBN earlier today, and a bit more of another article

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2363060

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/westbank/index.ssf?/base/news-2/1151567340128240.xml&coll=1

A Jefferson Parish sheriff's deputy testified he was alerted to the liquor aisle by the clinking sound of bottles and caught the three with carts loaded with the liquor and beer. The defense attorneys argued that the store already was ransacked, and their clients did not leave the business with looted goods.

Little, McGowen and Pearson each testified that they were not looting, but they offered conflicting accounts of matters such as who drove to the store.

Pearson, who had a clean criminal history, testified he went to the store to get insulin for his ailing mother, who stayed home through the storm and was running low on her medication. Deputies later confirmed Pearson's story and delivered the insulin to his mother, according to testimony.

Released from jail on bond, Little was later hired by the same store she was accused of looting, the store manager testified.

[Kerrytravelers]

23. If the very store then turned around and hired her, she can't be that big

of a threat to the safety of the community. :eyes:

[uppityperson]

29. Seems like that to me also. I don't understand this.

[MercutioATC]

34. It's not a matter of being a threat, its a punishment for breaking the law

...and yes, I do feel that the sentence was excessive.

[ContraBass Black]

44. What?

How did that even make it to trial?

[lonestarnot]

20. There's some bushitler for ya.

[pauliedangerously]

24. A wise judge.....

...would have just billed them for the booze and the court costs. I think if I had taken the booze I would have left an IOU.

[tyedyeto]

25. In memorium of Raging in Miami, I recommend this thread n/t

[mnhtnbb]

41. Um, did I miss something? What happened to Raging in Miami?

[Bluebear]

47. He is back, thankfully.

Some high adventure last night, don't ask :)

[RagingInMiami]

76. I got banned because I went a little overboard the other night

over this story. I probably shouldn't mix booze with political discussions. But Skinner forgave me and allowed me back on.

[RagingInMiami]

75. Thanks, man, but I'm back

It was just a temporary cooling off period. I probably shouldn't enter GD when I've been drinking.

[tyedyeto]

77. Glad you're back

I've admired your posts from afar and could not believe it when I saw the tombstone.

[ladjf]

28. Basically, they salvaged abandoned goods.

[MercutioATC]

32. Ummm...no. They looted liquor stores.

Had they taken things they needed to survive, I'd have never charged them (or at least let them off with a slap on the wrist).

While the sentence DOES seem excessive to me, these people were looting liquor. That's not survival, that's opportunism...and it should be viewed differently, IMO.

[OzarkDem]

59. Sentence should have been similar to shoplifting

60 days in jail, community service, probation and 1 yr. of AA meetings.

[MercutioATC]

64. Perhaps a little stiffer than that, but certainly not 15 years.

This was more than shoplifting, it was looting during a time of civil emergency. I can understand that the courts would want to illustrate the difference (plus, the law in LA is different for looting than it is for shoplifting).

The judge had the option to sentence them to the legal minimum, which (if I'm not mistaken) is three years. He chose to give them the maximum. Even three years would have been steep for this crime...15 years is certainly too much.

[TheFarseer]

30. That was one hell of alot quicker than Ken Lay

and that other douche bag got for stealing those people's retirement money and tell me which one is more serious? People get less for murdering other people. These people are locked up for 15 years and Tom Delay's stupid ass is still running around free.

[Kerrytravelers]

36. ken lay has money and powerful lawyers...

... and the BFEE as supporters. These people only had their poverty to speak for them.

[Fountain79]

39. I'm sorry...but how necessary is alcohol really? n/t

[info being]

52. Have you no heart at all?

[Fountain79]

54. For what?

People that feel that they can use a disaster to rob others? No...

[OzarkDem]

58. Sorry, 15 years is still wrong

Judge them as you wish, but they don't deserve that kind of sentence for looting a store.

[Fountain79]

74. I will be shocked if they serve 3 years of it.. n/t

[mnhtnbb]

40. Should have been fined cost of goods and given community service.

[Blue_Tires]

45. hopefully this will be an easy appeal

[Canuckistanian]

46. Anyone ever consider another possibility?

Booze is a commodity. And, as such, can be traded for other commodities. Such as food or medicine.

Amazing what's considered valuable when "normal society" breaks down.

It's something we should never lose sight of.

[Kagemusha]

50. Yeah, that makes the motive to steal quite great

and society's motive to stop looting from fuelling the complete breakdown of normal society all that much more imperative.

I'd actually be less sympathetic, not more, if a defendant tried that reason on me.

[raccoon]

62. An excellent point. In the post-nuclear war novel ALAS BABYLON,

booze was used to trade.

[info being]

51. If only they were in a free country, like France

15 years? Indescribably injustice.

[porphyrian]

55. Yeah, that's justice. - n/t

[htuttle]

56. They should have embezzled a few billion dollars from the elderly instead

They'd have gotten a LOT less time...

[Kerrytravelers]

73. Down is up and war is peace in shrubbie's world.

:rofl:

Embezzle a few billion, a virtual slap on the wrists. Take some booze during a hurricane- WATCH OUT!

[OzarkDem]

57. Yet Bernard Kerik gets a misdemeanor for a $200,000 bribe

The Duke-Stir only got 8 yrs.

:wtf:

[Atman]

60. John Rowland got 12 months-and-a-day for ripping off CT of millions of $$

But he was a wealthy white republican friend of Bush's. Just sayin.

[Truthiness Inspector]

67. Sentence is too harsh

They sure made off with a lot of booze, but 15 years? :wow:

[Mace_Windex]

78. please.....

This is ridiculous. First off, leaving aside the fact that they should have evacuated with everyone else, in a state of emergency, when they needed to be quick, think on their toes, find supplies that would help them survive, why did they loot and steal alcohol, which slows you down, impares your judgement, and actually dehydrates you, making you more thirsty?

These weren't people trying to survive. They were people who just wanted to "party."

[Eric J in MN]

79. If they wanted to party,

that doesn't mean that they belong behind bars.

People taking goods from an abandoned store doesn't prove that they're a threat to society.