Simple Question: How do you think of the Rich?

[BrentWill4U]

Are they MOSTLY good people who work hard, are talented, and happened to be in the right place at the right time (or happen to be born into or get it by luck, but not by cheating) OR are they MOSTLY people who have unfairly gamed the system to their advantage.

[ret5hd]

1. they are MOSTLY heirs to the fortunes...

their ancestors accumulated. And then, out of the sense of entitlement that such an upbringing instills, have the gall to bitch about paying taxes on the fortunes they have inherited.

[slide to the left]

75. not true

my family could be considered rich, however my parents worked up from NOTHING, raised me and my brother while going to school. The both now have their MBAs and lots of money. They are two of the most generous people I know. And I will not inherit the money bc they plan on spending it all before they die. It's thiers and I think they should.

Also, my dad's family (his dad's dad) was old money oil but it all got taken away from them.

[ret5hd]

77. how does your personal circumstance verify or discredit a statement...

made about a group of peoiple? Get a clue.

[Yupster]

79. Not in my experience

I work with "the rich" every day.

They are mostly small business owners or retired people who used to be middle class but are now rich.

What I mean by rich is people with $ 1-5 million. I don't know more than a handful of people with more than that.

Offhand I can't think of anyone I know who inherited their millions.

[mark414]

2. eat the rich to feed the poor!

no i'm kidding...sort of

there's nothing wrong with rich people because they're just like everyone else. some are great wonderful people and some are cocksuckers. my grandpa's pretty rich, and he's one of the best guys in the world.

what bothers me is that we have a system (capitalism) that requires that there be rich and there be poor, otherwise it wouldn't work. what bothers me is that being rich is equated with being successful and admirable and that hey we should listen to him cause he's rich. it bothers me that people make a fortune doing nothing but manipulating money and the stock market and contribute shit to society. it bothers me that people have billions of dollars in personal wealth...nobody should have that much money so long as people are hungry and in need of basic elements of survival. but i'm a dirty socialist, so what do i know?

[Erika]

12. Christ was a socialist who washed the feet of his followers

Never be ashamed of being a socialist.

[Mythsaje]

3. I imagine they're like everyone else...

Some good, some bad.

Of course, if you've got a lot of money, when you're bad, you're REALLY bad.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrentWill4U]

13. No, I am a Democrat..

Always have been one, and always will be one. I believe in a society that provides a social safety net for its poor, one that insures that children have health care, and one in which education is a right. I do, however, believe in the free market, so I am not as far to the left as some of you, but I am and will ALWAYS be a democrat.

[Erika]

16. Then you should know the democratic stand of societal needs

[me b zola]

33. Thank you for your answer

Isn't, though, the free market a lie? Doesn't unbrideled capitalism lead to feudalism? I agree with your stated belief that there should be a social safety net--any nation or state that does not provide one, imo, is a sick, dark place and unlikey to be democratic. Unregulated capitalism leads to the type of corruption & depravity that we now see @ every level of governance, decimating our social safety net.

[blm]

66. And it just so happens GOP free-marketers are fascists and shredding the

safety net. And some people who call themselves Democrats are helping them in some areas.

[Sannum]

5. My grandparents are what most would consider very wealthy

They started from nothing and built their wealth through farming. Looking at them, you would never guess that they were worth what they are. They live in a small farm house. The land, though, is where the money is. I have not seen nor do I really expect to inherit anything, though I must admit, it would be nice to not have to worry about money.

Like anything, it depends on the person. I know rich people who are nice and poor people who are assholes.

[Yupster]

80. That's pretty typical

I work with many families with $ 3 million or so wealth and most of them you'd never know were rich. They live in the same homes, drive the same cars, etc.

[Erika]

6. Many who are rich from inheritances have no way to

identify with the needy. Kind of like W. They think if they give $ to charity, and get the tax deduction, they've done their Godly duty to the poor.

[Jara sang]

7. EVERY wealthy person on the planet

is wealthy at the expense of those who live in poverty.

[mark414]

8. yeah that's what i was trying to say

i just wasn't able to do it so succinctly

[Erika]

9. Kind of like the minimum wage not being raised for 9 years

Someone is making the profits without sharing them with the workers.

[LSK]

36. you being able to afford a computer do it at the expense of poverty

How far do you want to link things??? If you want to say that about the rich, I can say the same about you depending on how far I dig and how ridiculous I want to link things.

[Quantess]

58. Sort of, yes.

That's kind of like saying Bush is 100% incompetent. No, these statements are closer to 95% true, in both cases.

[napi21]

84. I don't believe that at all!

There are "old Money" rich, who mostly inherited their wealth, and there's "new oney" rich who are in many catagories. Some had a great idea and made a successful business; some worked for a business, made the right decisions, or kissed the right a**, and rose to a high level of success; and yes some built their wealth on thcks of USING other people, treating them like sh*t, and milking the company of all it's assets to their own advantage.

It's really incorrect to say all are wealthy at the cost of the poor.

[Fleshdancer]

10. Like everyone else. Some are wonderful, some are asses.

:shrug:

[ProgressiveEconomist]

78. How sensible! I agree wholeheartedly

[Bill McBlueState]

11. what do you think?

Normally when you ask a question on DU, you should provide your own answer either in the OP or soon after in a follow-up.

[BrentWill4U]

17. I think the rich are generally people that..

Either won life's lottery and were born to rich parents or were hard working and talented people that were in the right place at the right time. However, I don't think of them as evil.

[Erika]

20. Did anyone call them evil other than your implication?

Have you read the party platform?

[BrentWill4U]

25. Yes, actually I have...

But this isn't a question about that, is it?

[Erika]

29. Where? That is the question. Here on DU?

I don't think so.

[BrentWill4U]

30. No, you asked me if I have...

Read the Party platform. I assumed you were talking about the Democratic Party Platform (Though I have read the GOP Platform, also). The answer is yes, I have read it. But you are right, not on this website.

[hfojvt]

32. so there are no crooks?

No people who got rich because they, for example, got people addicted to cigarettes and made a ton of money in that business? No companies that promoted war and then got very profitable insider contracts to manage and rebuild? No PT Barnums who fleeced all those suckers born every minute? No companies like American Payday Loans which exploit the desperate or the foolish? There are no people who climbed the ladder by kissing a$$ and back-stabbing and being tigers in the office jungle? That's hard work, but it's not hard work that is some kind of virtue or benefit to humanity.

[BrentWill4U]

35. Oh there are..

I just don't think the majority are. As I don't think the majority of all Americans are crooks.

[hfojvt]

39. in some of the examples I gave

what they did was perfectly legal, if also perfectly immoral. That is the perfect crook, especially since money gives people the power to determine what the laws are. Payday loans are perfectly legal loan sharking. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly are not doing anything illegal with their shows, but they are still a$$hats. As liars and hate mongers, what they do is bad for society. But standard corporate practice does the same thing on the world scale. As a guy with three working computers I am fairly wealthy, and this hard-drive I am using gave somebody, who put it together in China, cancer, because it would reduce profits or increase prices to care about a worker's health.

[Yupster]

82. There certainly are

just like middle class people who issed their way to mid level jobs and poor people who sell drugs to kids.

There are bad in every group for sure.

[Quantess]

53. Can I add some html to your statement?

"However, I don't think of them as evil".

Well, lah-deee-dah, Scarlett!
:spank:

[SmokingJacket]

69. I don't think of them as "evil," either, but...

If you have a lot of money these days, it's almost always because you WANT a lot of money. You have to focus most of your energy on MAKING or KEEPING MONEY. (There are exceptions, of course: like overnight rock stars.) In many cases, you have to take advantage of people and exploit them. You have to convince an old woman to invest her money in *your* company, even if it isn't necessarily to her advantage, or you have to sell a piece of property you know is overpriced. You have to pay workers who are working as hard as you LESS than they're worth. You have to invest in a pharmaceutical company that is totally ripping off cancer patients. Etc.

Many people are rich because they are willing to be ruthless to get there. A lot of us could be rich if we wanted to -- I'm pretty smart, and I had access to a great education, and I have no doubt that I could have been rich if that was something I cared about. Once I came close to marrying a rich guy. If money meant that much to me, I probably would have done it.

However -- I actually kind of hate money. I have some friends who inherited a lot, but they're not the happiest people in the world -- in fact, they're fucked up.

Poverty SUCKS, not having medical care is DEADLY, and a life just struggling to survive is a misery. But having just enough so you don't have to worry about it constantly is the ideal, in my opinion. Too much more than that, and you have to sacrifice too much time, too many relationships, and/or your soul to get it.

[tyedyeto]

14. I don't give a fuck how they earned their millions...

but ask Congress to address Minimum Wage laws. There has not been an increase in the federal minimum wage since 1997...

Isn't it about time there is?

[unkachuck]

15. they are....

....scummy, filthy leaches sucking the life-blood from everyone....they're not worthy of licking the boots of the homeless and down-troddened they produce....

[Erika]

19. Chuckle, chuckle n/t

[Quantess]

56. Oh yeah? I take offense at that.

I would surmise that you are also disingenuous. See, now you know I'm elitist, because I use big words.

[u4ic]

18. It would depend on how they earned it

and what they do with it. (eg Soros vs Walton family)

[CoffeeCat]

21. I don't believe that you can generalize...

There are evil bastards and horrendous witches who fall on ALL levels of the socioeconmic scale.

Conversely, there are very compassionate and giving people who are rich, middle class and poor.

You can't generalize and stereotype--based on income.

Many people who are rich work very hard, and they are very talented. However, some rich people didn't do anything to get the money they have. Also--there are many working poor and middle class people in this country who work DAMN hard. Some work three jobs. Many single mothers work two jobs and take care of children--working just as many hours as a wealthy CEO. Many stay-at-home mothers make no income--but their skills and patience profoundly impact the lives of their children.

Also, many poor people or working class people may be talented--but they may not be nationally recognized for it--in the same way that rich CEOs, authors, stockbrokers or media personality are.

I don't agree with the underlying suppositions of the initial question. This shouldn't be a devils/angels question---because the question forces people to make a false choice about people based on income. I don't think it can be done.

I don't think this is a valid question.

[Erika]

22. Amen n/t

[Patchuli]

23. I think of

George W. Bush and Paris Hilton. In other words, I see WORTHLESS people who were born lucky. If either of those two had to earn a living, it would be pathetic.

[Erika]

27. Nor did they ever have the exposure to the needs of the poor

nor did they try to alleviate the suffering.

[OnionPatch]

24. They are both

Success is a combination of hard work, talent and plain old good luck. Of course those who have never run into any real hard luck will tell you they did it themselves and anyone can do it too.

[Cleita]

26. What kind of rich are you referring to?

Many of the rich who made it themselves are actually still poor when you compare them to the really rich and souless on this planet. The Queen of England, Sultan of Brunei and Fortune 500 billionaires fall into the category that I consider filthy rich and should be made to pay taxes for the privilege of being rich. Then we can scale down to maybe five billion.

Anyone with under five billion in assets really isn't that rich because they can be ruined by wrong decisions. Think of Michael Jackson, who was teetering on the edge of losing it all not too long ago. To be really filthy rich, you have to be able to make all the stupid mistakes and be able to buy everthing you want, throw it away and be able to buy it all over again, in other words to be the biggest waster of all, and still have an estate that grows in spite of you.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. I could make some pretty dumb mistakes with 5 billion

And still be pretty well off.

[calmblueocean]

47. EXACTLY. There's rich and then there's wealthy.

There are a lot of people in America who think they're wealthy because they live in a big house.

These people are largely middle class.

Then you have the segment of people who think they're wealthy because they live in a big house AND can afford to buy all the creature comforts they want -- the latest iPod, the nice vacation, the new car. These people have high paying careers, and they think that having a high paying career makes them wealthy. Of course, it doesn't. Anyone who has to work for a living isn't wealthy.

The truly wealthy are that elite 1% that do little but watch their investments grow. They may have jobs, but they are only comfortable sinecures in the upper echelons of business, taken for show.

One of the biggest problems in America today is that the people who still work for a living vote for policies created to benefit those who don't. I think there are lots of rich people who got there simply by putting their nose to the grindstone and making good choices, but almost by definition, none of the truly wealthy are there by merit. They're simply the beneficiaries of dynastic wealth.

[Selatius]

28. I reject the premise of your thread; it's a false dichotomy

Just because a person who does not become rich through honest work and perseverence does not necessarily mean he won it through fraud and deceit. Some people are born into wealth and privilege. Others become wealthy through happenstance such as winning the Powerball jackpot.

[LibDemAlways]

31. I can only comment on the few wealthy people

I know personally.

A few years back I befriended a woman who had "married money." Her husband is one of five children of parents who are loaded. Their wealth was partly inherited/partly the benefit of the husband's Stanford education and success as a lawyer. None of the five children has amounted to anything. One works for a rich uncle. One has mental issues and doesn't work at all. One is a homemaker who has dedicated her life to scientology. The other two are in their 50's and sponge off their parents. At this point they are all basically waiting for the parents to "pass on" so they can divvy up the considerable spoils. I'd say they are rich by accident of birth and have done nada to earn or deserve it.

Another rich guy I know comes from considerably more humble circumstances. After graduating from Penn State, he came out to Southern Cal. and took a job handling the finances for a law firm. One of the clients of the firm was a Hollywood talent agency. My friend befriended the agency people and was hired by them as their chief financial officer. Through the agency, he met a couple of production company executives, who in turn hired him to handle finances and negotiations for them. Now he makes huge dollars - owns several homes, expensive cars, pays for expensive private school tuition for his daughter and ice skating lessons with Michelle Kwan's coach. None of that comes cheap. I don't begrudge him his money because it is the result of a lot of hard work - mixed with luck and being in the right place at the right time.

Example #3 is my cousin's husband who came from an upper middle class family, went to Northwestern, and happened to be the roommate of a guy whose father was a Hollywood producer. He was an English major who wanted to become a tv writer, one job where you have to know somebody to get a foot in the door. The roommate's father arranged for him to come out to LA, helped him get an agent and his first job - writing for the sitcom "Third Rock From the Sun." Today he has many producer credits under his belt and lives quite lavishly for someone in his early 30's. I don't think he's any genious as a comedy writer, but he sure as hell managed to be in the right place at the right time.

I think there are as many paths to riches as there are rich people. One thing they all share in common is a desire to make and have more. None of the rich people I know gives much to charity, and they all vote Republican.

[calmblueocean]

48. Really interesting post.

I don't know that I'd agree with the idea that there are as many paths to riches as there are rich people -- it seems to me you either earn it, or you don't. But I appreciated the detail of your stories, and how they made the subject more concrete.

[Erika]

51. Do those who inherit riches earn them? n/t

[calmblueocean]

57. No.

Dynastic wealth isn't earned.

[Quantess]

59. Of course! That's HOT! Like Paris Hilton!

Can you imagine how like, HOT! everything would be if everyone could be Paris Hilton!! B-) :puke: B-) :puke: B-) :puke: B-) :puke:

[LSK]

34. some worked hard, some lucked out, some inherited it

[LynneSin]

37. You cannot lump everyone who makes more than you into one category

And I find it disheartening for any DUer out there to automatically lump anyone who happens to have/make money as some form of evil.

[Erika]

38. You needn't be disheartened. NO DU'r linked them to evil

[LynneSin]

40. No but what next? What do you think of the Blacks? The Jews?

Perhaps the original poster was well meaning with the intent of the thread but all this does is bring out a subset of DU that distrusts anyone who makes even a bit more than they do as a segment of the party that is somehow morally corrupt.

Like any race, class, creed, religion or other defining group you will find the those that give a bad name to their group and the other 99.5% of them average folks like you and me

[Erika]

49. I'm sorry, I don't see that here. You do?

I've only been here since 2001. Perhaps you see something I don't?

[LynneSin]

61. I'm not saying it happens - I'm saying that's the type of question

that we're asking - to judge an entire subset of people based on a distinguishing characteristic. I equate a post where we are asked to pass judgement on those who are rich no better than if I started a thread asking what you thought of Jews or African-Americans

Judge the person not the lump sum group that defines who they are

[BrentWill4U]

76. If you review the thread...

It is a rather large "subset" that believe that the rich are inherently immoral in one-way or the other. I don’t believe this would be the same for any other group, besides perhaps Republicans.

[Sannum]

41. exactly

I don't like sweeping generalizations. I don't expect to inherit a penny from anyone, but if I do, would I suddenly become an evil bitch? Um...no. I would be the same person exactly. I could not see that there would be any difference whatsoever.

[BushOut06]

43. I don't usually think of them at all

I dunno, what kind of question is that? I'm trying to get by in my own life, trying to find myself a job, etc. I don't really think about rich folks too much - unless one of them wants to offer me a job.

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. They are equally split between...

... people who inherited their wealth, and sociopathic amoral types who gamed the system.

I find the groupings odd. What do talented people who work hard have in common with people who inherited?

[McCamy Taylor]

45. Parasites.

No one needs more than a certain ammount of goods. After that point, they should start giving to charity.

The only excuse to amass capital is if you plan to invest it in something like a politcal party, artistic venture, charitable venture something like that and in most cases you would be better off putting the money in a tax exempt foundation as you save it up so you would not be rich anyway.

[LynneSin]

62. You are no different than the racists & homophobes of the repuke party

sorry - that bothers you for me saying that so be it. But it bothers me that you have labeled an entire group of people as some sort of plague on society. I know people who have done well in life and ALL of them do not fit the blatant, disrespectful pre-judgmental comment you've made. Judging a group of people based on a set criteria is just absolutely wrong. There are rich people who fit exactly what you have described but that doesn't mean that everyone who happens to make more than you do are inherently evil as your description

I see nothing but envy in your post - which is NOT a very noble or progressive value.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. What do you think about Jesus?

He said rich people go to hell.

[LittleClarkie]

46. Haven't known many

Would have to judge them on a rich person by rich person basis. I would try not to judge them merely for BEING rich, however.

So I guess I'm not sure I can answer your question.

[Balbus]

50. With envy.

[Erika]

52. With much wealth comes much responsibility

As were told to the Kennedy boys. Envy?

[alittlelark]

54. Define 'rich'.

I'm in Silicon Valley and have 1 billionaire friend, 10+ multi-millionair friends, many 1-2 million friends.....


What is 'rich'?

[NAO]

55. Mostly inherited; Depends on definition; The Invisible "SUPER-RICH"

Most people, rich, poor, or middle class have inherited their financial standing from their family. Parental income is THE strongest predictor of personal income.

Of course, different people mean vastly different things by "RICH". Some people living (?!?) on minimum wage consider people who earn $75/K year to be "rich". There are some people who earn $225K/year who consider themselves to be "middle-class" or even "struggling".

Personally, I consider someone to be rich if they can subsist entirely off of the labor of others, without producing anything themselves. So someone who lives off of interest or dividends or a trust is rich, even if they only receive $50/K year. On the other hand, someone who MUST work to keep money coming in, is not "rich" in this sense even if they are earning $1 million/year.

If you live off of capital, you are rich. If you must sell your labor to capital, you are not rich, even if you earn an astronomical salary.

The Super Rich are out of Sight
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Superrich.html

[conflictgirl]

60. It's not as simple as those choices

I don't believe that hard work and talent alone is enough to make someone rich - I have known way too many people who both worked very hard and had a lot of talent that just didn't become rich/wealthy from it. I think a lot of it has the element of being in the right place at the right time, or having luck.

One thing I have observed in my experience is that when you grow up working class, the kind of things you learn about how to get by in the workplace are TOTALLY different than what people learn when they grow up in upper-middle-class families. For example: I grew up solidly working class. I am trying to establish myself now in my jobs as a freelance writer and a writing teacher for local community-education program, and in the past two months I have successfully negotiated wage increases for myself. No one ever taught me to negotiate for better pay. In fact, the message I got was the opposite: I was always taught that basically you take whatever pay or raises your boss gives you, on the boss' schedule, and you don't ever negotiate because you might get fired and lord knows you can't afford that risk. Ten years ago when I was working in offices, I had an experience of getting a 6-CENT hourly raise despite getting a perfect performance review. I considered myself lucky to have the job, period, and it never occurred to me that I could negotiate.

Similarly, when you grow up working class, in my experience, you don't learn much about how to network with people. Networking is almost a dirty word, as it's viewed similar to using people for what they can do for you. I am learning how to network now and in fact, most of the jobs I've gotten lately have been the result of someone I knew. I had to figure it out on my own that calling on people I know for connections to get jobs wasn't calculating or manipulative or unethical. Most people in the working class still use the newspaper to get jobs. My husband has been unemployed since February and still relies on the help-wanted ads in the paper.

I think that it is this unofficial knowledge that wealthy kids grow up with that reinforces their social position. If you grow up wealthy, chances are your parents have connections that you can draw upon as well (speaking in generalizations). It IS totally possible to go from a working-class background to successful, wealthier professional - but I do believe it's the exception. I don't think it's the fault of the working class for not using these more effective techniques to get ahead - how could it be, when nobody's ever clued them in to it, and has often advised them to do the exact opposite?

Similarly, I don't believe that most rich people get there by cheating. However, one thing I have noticed in my previous jobs where I had customer contact with people of different socioeconomic classes is that richer people are more likely to try to get out of paying for things. If they're not happy with their service somewhere, they seem more likely to refuse to pay. This may be a huge generalization and it's just my experience. But, for example, when I worked as an office manager for a landscape company, the customers refusing to pay for services rendered on grounds that they weren't happy with the service from the neighborhood with the $500,000 homes outnumbered those from the $100,000 houses who refused, by about a 3:1 ratio. I've often wondered how many situations that happens in, and if that contributes to how they keep more of their money.

[LynneSin]

63. self delete

DELETE

[Bill McBlueState]

64. they're a mix of people, like any group

Some of them are honest; others are crooks. Some of them are hard-working; others are lucky. But I don't think anyone deserves automatic respect because they're wealthy. Certain strains of conservative thought and conservative religion suggest that rich people are inherently better than poor people, but there's no basis for believing that.

[blm]

65. Why are you focus-grouping us with Frank Luntz worded questions?

And how long do you plan to keep this up?

[LWolf]

67. I believe the rich

are rich because they started life with extra advantages that others didn't, or because they were willing to screw people over on their climb to the top, or to stay at the top.

Some advantages that give people a head start might include:

more intellectual development from an educated home

Support and tuition through college/trade school

Help with funding/financing first home

Start-up funds for independent business

Some of those advantages may sound middle-class; I'm not sure. For me, the middle-class was "rich" as I grew up and began life. I have a degree, a career, a home, and I still don't consider myself to be part of the "middle-class."

The rich may be good people, or not. I think you can find people of all flavors in every class.

[Yupster]

83. My parents

were just plain savers.

Since the 1940's they saved money every paycheck no matter how little they made. They invested pretty well though conservatively.

When they retired they had a little over $ 1 million. Then they sold their home in New York City and all the sudden had $ 2 million.

They still live very modestly and now after 20 years of retirement, they have over $ 3 million.

I have a hard time thinking that they stole from anyone or got any special advantages. My mother's father died when she was a child and her mother worked as a maid. My father's father owned a brush shop which was put out of business by the hated plastic. Mt father went into the WWII navy and was able to get a draftsman's job after the war without any college.

Seems kind of stupid to paint them as bad people somehow.

[DireStrike]

68. I don't know a breakdown on luck/criminality, but....

I do know that there after a certain point, people do not deserve their wealth and cannot do anything to deserve that amount of wealth. I firmly believe we need a maximum wage and possibly wealth taxes.

[WilliamPitt]

70. The top 1% of wage-earners pay for 27% of the country via taxes

This does not, of course, include the super-rich and corporations, who have tax shelters for their tax shelters.

Like anything else, talking about "the rich" lumps a large group of disparate people under a generalized umbrella.

What do I think of the rich? I think they should pay a larger tax burden so the middle class and working poor can send their kids to school. That's about it. I'd need to meet them all individually to make a better assessment.

[ComerPerro]

71. UNLIKE republicans, I don't automatically respect people if they are rich

[Swamp Rat]

72. Enemies of Humanity and Mother Earth. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. They're like poor people. Only lucky.

And more of them are spoiled.

[leanin_green]

81. Losers with money. n/t