I Won't Vote For a Dem in the Primary Who Unequivocally Supports Israel

[JCMach1]

Sorry, but I am drawing a line in the sand here. Too many people have been hurt and lives destroyed because the US has continued its policy of unthinkingly supporting EVERY action of the Israeli government.

Sure, I have a right to defend myself against you if you attack me. But, does that give you a right to kill my family too? Afterall, I live in the same house.

I will not give my support to any Democratic primary candidate who supports such policies.

[liberal N proud]

1. Good luck, there seems to be something about both parties that has them

attracted to Israel.
I don't understand what it is. What ever Israel does, the US government regardless of party in control supports them.

[JCMach1]

2. I drew the line on Iraq during the last primary... I just am not going

to support candidates who support violent stupidity of any stripe.

and yes, I am pissed at both Feingold and Clinton because they were both people I was looking at seriously...

[burythehatchet]

12. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[LoZoccolo]

3. Why are you voting for the guy who unequivocally supports Hezbollah?

:eyes:

[cantstandbush]

4. Nice try. But I'll let the OP speak for his or herself. nt

[Wonk]

6. Black and White thinking

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

[LoZoccolo]

8. Exactly my point.

"Unequivocally."

[JVS]

50. I think it was intended as a joke

[JCMach1]

7. It's about supporting violence and I am sick of Dems doing this...

My position has been consistent... I did not support anyone who voted for the Iraq War Resolution in the 2004 primaries.

[JVS]

49. Because Allah is great!

I always vote for people who unequivocally support Hezbollah! ;-)

[LostinVA]

83. That's not what the OP said... or meant n/t

[Radical Activist]

85. "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists"

Yeah, sounds familiar.

[jrd200x]

5. Supporting them doesn't mean agreein with everything

they do.

I support them - although I think some of their decisions are pretty dumb. Although, if I were constantly being bombed in my buses, pizza parlors, hotels, and streets I probably would make a lot of decicions the world thought were dumb.

Their incursion into Lebanon is justified if only because over 60 rockets have been fired into Israel in the last week alone.

Perhaps we should support them because:

- they're the only democracy in the region
- they give us a lot of free intelligence
- they fight terrorists there and serve as a buffer to the US
- they've been picked on enough over the last 50 years
- they're the enemy of our enemy (and believe me, our enemy isn't Iraq. Its Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, and yes, "Palestine."

[JCMach1]

10. Read the wording of my post... and grasp the word 'unequivocally'

[jrd200x]

13. Thanks for the lesson Mr. Teacher.

now grasp the point.

ALl of the other countries in that part of the world want to KILL YOU. Israel is the only one that doesn't.

Grasp that jack.

[Wonk]

16. Yeah? You're saying the 25,000 US citizens, 40,000 Canadians, 20,000

French, and others who are currently in Lebanon were in more danger from the Lebanese prior to the Israeli escalation of hostilities than they are now from the Israelis? That sure seems to be what you're saying, and I don't buy it.

[jrd200x]

17. That seems like what I'm saying? Huh?

I didn't say anything like that. Your post seems like babbling.

I'm talking about the indigenous people.

[LostinVA]

86. No need to be so rude to posters

Seriously, you're not reacting to anything they're saying... you are just being discourteous. Why? There's no reason for that.

[JCMach1]

18. Funny how I as an American was able to travel freely to Lebanon

talk to anyone I wanted and go anywhere I wanted without ever being under any threat...

And yes, I was in the Bekaa valley about one month ago (just before the previous Israeli attacks on Lebanon)...

Yeah, they want to kill me :sarcasm:

[saracat]

36. That is absolute crap.

And if you think it helps Israel to disparage the rest of the region you are as bonkers as Bush. Israel is every bit as guilty as the rest their are NO innicent countries here. This bloodbath hs to be stopped and Israel has to be condemned right along with everyone else.

[Tesha]

54. And *WHY* do they all want to kill us? Hmmm???? (NT)

[lumpy]

70. "All of the other countries.....want to kill you"

A very broad statement covering every citizen of every other country in the Mideast Spread the hate by all means, right?

[LostinVA]

84. That is totally not true

Good grief. The ME rhetoric on DU is going through the freaking roof lately...

And, that "lesson" he gave you was true -- that one word he used makes a big difference in the meaning of that sentence.

[Ignoramus]

94. A country can't kill anyone

A country is a geographical area.

Unless you are refering to earth quakes maybe. California wants to kill you.

[Wonk]

11. Bzzzt! Wrong. Lebanon's current gov't was democratically elected too. nt

[jrd200x]

14. Yes, just recently

and several candidates were murdered.

A shining example. I'm not sure you can claim that they're the same thing. More like Iraq's democracy.

[JCMach1]

20. Absolutely wrong... Lebanon was on the verge

of finally putting the entire civil war and aftermath to bed... Bush's lack of support for the Lebanon HE created will destroy US influence for years... How can they trust US now? They were our allies and we sold them down the river so the Israelis can punish Hezbollah!

[Clark2008]

28. Former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin was murdered -

by one of his own countrymen.

Assassinations in politics have been happening since the first elections.

And - I'm sorry, but my son's family in Jordan does not wish to kill me. :eyes:

[Scurrilous]

53. "...and several candidates were murdered."

As was an Israeli Prime Minister. Does that take the shine off Israel's example?

[Clark2008]

25. A couple of things:

- They're not the only democracy in the region: Palestine recently had elections (you could stretch it and include Iraq, but that's just the United States East, so they don't really count). Pakistan is also a democracy.

- The Jordanians also give us free intelligence and, their police force, run by the military, has the distinct honor of twarting both the millennium terrorist attacks and a more recent planned attack in the region last year. This force is arguably better than the Moussad these days.

- One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. To many embattled Arabs, Hezbollah are freedom fighters who provide much-needed social services.

- The Israelis have also done their fair share of "picking" on their neighbors in the past 50 years.

- My enemy isn't any of those countries - I may not like some of their leadership, but, quite honestly, most of their leaders are placed by the U.S. In fact, if we'd leave well enough alone, we'd see the people overthrow the royal family in Saudi Arabia.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Liberal Democracy Is More Than Having Elections

It also theoretically includes such things that we take for granted as due process and habeas corpus.
Actually, habeas corpus is what separates a free people from an un-free people

And Pakistan is a military government with the window dressings of a democracy:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6807



It is no more a democracy than Somoza's Nicaragua, Marcos's Philippines, and Batista's Cuba.

[Critters2]

72. Yeah, calling Pakistan a democracy is a stretch

But, when it comes to habeas corpus, Israel is no angel, either.

[misanthrope]

96. But...

...if the House of Saud is overthrown, it will play havoc with oil supplies. THAT'S why we don't want true democracy taking root in the region. Same reason we marched into the Gulf in '91 to put a Kuwaiti oligarchy back in power.

[misanthrope]

95. Hmmm...

..."They're the only democracy in the region?"

Their form of democracy is something I don't think you would want to see here, but ShrubCo might. Why? Because it's actually more of a theocracy in which those not belonging to the favored and dominant religion have diminished rights. Is that what we're looking for here? Is that where we want to pass out tacit approval? Is that what we're trying to spread around the world?

If so, if we're comfortable going down that road, then prepare yourselves because as the Falwells and Robertsons start running things here, it will be not only the Muslims who become de jure second-class American citizens, but also Jews.

[MadMaddie]

9. I agree to a point....when you were growing up did your mom do

like my mom and tell you to hold your nose while you took that nasty cough syrup?

Hold your nose....

I fucking despise the way that the Dem leaders are choosing sides in the conflict....a conflict that was started 50 years ago after WWII...

But if you want to punish the Dems who are supporting war mongering of any kind...November is not the time to do it....We may hate the Repugs for sticking to whatever the party line is but they win.....

We have no choice but to win in November because the Constitution and the soul of this country is at stake....this is no longer a game....we can not pull votes from Dems that can win....(you are indirectly supporting the Repuglicans)this is the Nader effect...we can't afford to lose...

I know each of you are going to vote your conscious....I know short term we are notorious for getting sidetracked...please stay focused and punish the Dems after we get the House and/or the Senate back in November...

Peace my friends!!!

[jrd200x]

15. here here. nice post

I can't stand the way liberals bicker over minor points.

That's why we can't win

[JCMach1]

22. Nice to see that Imperialist/Globalist foreign policy is now a minor point

must have missed that memo...

[lumpy]

71. People who pretend to be Democrats

and refer to themselves as 'we' on a Demo. forum are the ones I can't stand. Take the route out of the forest jack.

[stepnw1f]

74. It's Pathetic...

dishonesty from the get-go.

[stepnw1f]

73. "We"... lololol

"I can't stand the way liberals bicker over minor points.

That's why we can't win"

I doubt there is a "we". Nice try...

[LostinVA]

87. Yup... I noticed that, too

[JVS]

51. The OP was talking about the primaries, that's not November

[symbolman]

19. I won't support violence and this madness created by Bush/Rove

which is being aided and abetted by some Democrats. You are either FOR slaughtering innocents or against it, and I am against it.

Why has no one created a Terror Response Team of killers that KILL the Terrorists RESPONSIBLE for their acts?

The rest of us deserve PEACE and SAFETY.

Wiping out whole cultures and countries when there is a terrorist attack or hostage situation needs to STOP NOW. We have the capacity, the skill, the trained troops to do this, and this is exactly what should have been done after 911 as well.

I'm not accepting this insanity anymore, it has to be called for what it is, mindless slaughter with no diplomacy utilized in the least, and in case anyone hasn't noticed it sure seems to be catching on, thanks to Bush/Rove/Cheney's contribution to death and mayhem, which they've used the media to rename, Peace and Prosperity.

WE END WARS. It's the American way.

WHERE is the talk of a PEACEFUL solution? Hillary? NOPE.

[gizmo1979]

79. If they don't harbor terrorists

they won't get blown up.If you elect a government and they are in bed with the bad guys bad things are bound to happen.Israel is trying to protect their people they don't have alot of options.Civilians are going to die.

[symbolman]

89. Aren't WE Harboring Terrorists?

Like Bush and Cheney and Rove and the rest of them?

SO does that mean that WE deserve to get blown up? Are WE in bed with the bad guys just for being called "American", we are associated with these psychopatic serial killers like Bush and Cheney and Rove..

The only difference is WHO has the GUNS and MONEY, and no scruples.

And that is WRONG and needs to be called that.. there is NO excuse for Slaughtering of innocent people.. I have a 18 month old child and let me tell you when I see ANY little kids killed my heart screams for them and their parents.

Where the hell is the EMPATHY, has it been drummed OUT of us? Are we even HUMAN anymore?

I want another planet, let them bomb the shit out of each other here, go nuts, and I'm taking the kids with me :)

[malaise]

92. I'm with you brother

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/clin-j19.shtml

[Sugarcoated]

21. Oh Christ.

Knock yourself out.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. gotta list?

[JCMach1]

24. Not at this point, just weighing Sen. Clinton's latest offerings

I just want to hear someone say... supporting the Israeli people doesn't mean supporting every action of their government...

Is that such a difficult thing?

[Behind the Aegis]

27. So address it with her.

Do not assume that support for Israel is support for all of Israeli policies. I support a free Palestine, but I don't support everything their fledgling government does by any stretch!

[serryjw]

29. What are you doing in AUE?

RU an EX-PAT or in the military? I don't totally disagree with you but I'm running out of candidates.
Between the wars, the patriots act and immigration, I have no idea who to support anymore

[mikelgb]

30. No.

I support the Israeli people. I do not support the terrorist gov't.
I support the Lebanese people. I do not support Hizbullah's terrorist leaders.

Fuck the Israeli gov't.
Fuck Bush.

Cease-Fire Now!

[PaDem]

26. I'd be inclined to agree with you............

but then that would mean I didn't vote.

[mmonk]

31. Good luck with that.

Rachel Corrie. American. Crushed to death by a U.S. made Israeli Army bulldozer March 16th, 2003 in Rafah, Gaza Strip

[never_get_over_it]

33. OMG - I've never seen a picture of Rachel Corrie

but I was deeply moved by what happened to her and even sent a sympathy card to her family - which I have never done before - meaning sending a card to total strangers - how pathetically stupid this all is

[mmonk]

34. Not stupid at all.

Very nice in fact.

[wellst0nev0ter]

80. Doncha Remember? She's A Stoopid Anti-American Ditz

and deserved to die, or something along that line.

At least that's what I gathered from the flamewars at the time.

[blonndee]

81. And in the last few days too...

stupid, and a terrorist sympathizer who killed herself to be a "martyr." So say some hateful people right here at DU. :puke:

[mmonk]

88. Yep. I received a dose of that yesterday.

So I feel a few more images coming.

[bullimiami]

32. i dont like it either. a lot of democrats are not setting well with me

right now.

i need balance. fair and equal treatment for all.

[Mr_Spock]

35. I'm sick of it too, but there are MUCH bigger issues

and certainly not enough good Dems to knock down over this issue.

[mmonk]

38. Well, at least we hope so

(meaning that I hope this doesn't blow up into the world war some want). The military industrial complex is straining all our resources and our constitution isn't working very well right now.

[pitohui]

37. well i sort of have to disagree

i don't know quite what you mean by "unequivocally" supporting such policies but the reality is that israel is a tiny nation w. little in the way of natural resources other than its human brainpower and will to survive, surrounded by numerous and populous nations with tons of natural resources that boldly say they would like to see it wiped from the earth

in such a position they have no choice but to defend themselves v. aggressively -- the chihuahua has to bark and snap to defend itself where the pit bull might get by w. just shooting a dirty look at a potential threat

it is the american tradition to defend the underdog and we also owe a great debt to the many jewish people who have contributed so much to usa -- einstein is the great example but there are many others, esp. in the scientific and technical fields

finally it is simple reality that the guys who flew the planes into our buildings weren't jewish or israeli guys, and it is simple politics that it is going to be easier to explain to the average voter why we should be helping israel (our ally who has shared experience of terror) rather than those who appear to have links to the other side

we can't fight israel's battles for them but ultimately they are an ally and they are owed some support if not "unequivocal" support

[mmonk]

39. unequivocal and some are two very different words.

The people that flew into our buildings were Saudi Arabian, at last check, an ally and financed in part by the head of Pakistan's ISI, another ally.

Israel I believe sent forbidden weapons items (in reference to China) in our deals with them to China.

Unequivocal isn't prudent.

[pitohui]

42. there are allies and there are allies

anyone who thinks saudi arabia and pakistan are our allies is some high level gov't official who needs to get out more, in my tiny humble opinion they are not allies but more an example of "keeping your enemies closer"

israel is our ally down to the bone

you are technically correct of course! unequivocal and some are v. different words but...i don't know where the OP draws the line nor do i believe we have ever given israel "unequivocal" support

i'm just saying i am going to give our democratic candidates a good bit of leeway on this

[Solon]

43. Israel is an ally?

How many of their spies have been caught by our government and now in prison again? Also, what about the U.S.S Liberty, and no, don't tell me they didn't know that was a US ship, they knew, and didn't care. One of only two nations that fired upon our ships and wasn't punished for it, oddly enough the other country was Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq.

[mmonk]

57. I'm sure Israel would risk everything for us

and do anything to protect our citizens.

[bling bling]

40. Let's all do that! None of us should vote for any Dems!!!

Unless they stand lock-step with our personal ideals on every, and I mean EVERY issue.

That'll show them. Good idea! Let's make this our new campaign strategy this year. We've only got 2 1/2 months left, so it would be wise to spend as much of that time as possible voicing our contempt at our own team and threatening to not vote for them over *one* thing we disagree with.

[mmonk]

41. Don't make too light of taking a stand for what's right.

That's what's wrong in America today. Not enough do.

[bling bling]

44. I disagree completely.

What's wrong with America is that capitalism and democracy are colliding. Corporations have figured out that infiltrating our government and our media is good for business. They are currently infiltrating the science and education and judicial sectors. We're so close to becoming powerless against this monstrous machine that it's terrifying. I worry about my little girl all the time. What kind of world will she have when she's my age? Will we have bankrupted her generation? Will she and her peers have to toil through life competing for the few basic resources they have left? Will she have to suffer because of the greed and corruption of this government? I don't know the answer, but I'm fearful. We have GOT to work it out and figure out how to get these oil thugs OUT of our government. They're killing our country, they're killing our world.

The whole entire world hates Bush. They think our country has lost it's mind. We are HORRIBLE at protecting the environment, and that effects everybody. We are economically fragile, and that affects everybody. We are invading other countries based on lies and disregarding the international laws of torture and that affects everybody. Do you think the rest of the world will look on approvingly if we don't vote for a Dem because of that particular Dem's personal view on whether Israel is doing the right thing or not? That is NOT taking a stand. It's being bull-headed and thoughtless and selfish.

We need to stay in reality. We can hold the Dem's feet to the fire once we get them in office and gain some/any power over this nightmare. The situation is ominous. We shouldn't be fooling around and labeling it righteousnouss.

[Stardust]

45. Yeah! We HAVE to keep our eyes on the prize//

[mmonk]

48. What if the prize is the same foreign policy?

Rachel Corrie.
Where is the party of Carter and others that seek a peaceful working world?

[Stardust]

59. Hopefully there are some "Carters" still left in the Democratic Party.You

*know* there aren't any on the other side. Without control of the House...well, you know the rest.

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. The OP says "in the Primary"

All Democrats should vote in primaries for candidates who represent their views best. If that means putting one issue above all others, that's still fair enough. But instead, you could just misrepresent that as "stand lock-step with our personal ideals on every, and I mean EVERY issue", and attack a strawman.

[bling bling]

93. I guess you could call it a strawman.

I call it sarcastic. Why does that matter? I think it was obvious I wasn't being literal or serious.

If you think it's A-ok or even perhaps noble to use one issue to judge whether you'll vote for a particular Dem, then fine. That's your opinion. You obviously have company in that viewpoint.

Personally, I think it's far more reasonable and in everyone's best interest to vote for the candidate who represents us as a party on a wider range of issues.

Maybe one Democrat in the primaries strongly supports Israel but also strongly supports women's reproductive rights, civil rights, environmental protections, etc. Maybe the other Democrat in the primary shares the viewpoint of the OP on Israel, but is also in favor of amending the constitution to discriminate against gays, and supports the anti-abortionist position. Before you call "strawman" there ARE Democrats in office who have those views.

At this time, I think we should discourage people from using this forum to broadcast their threats against Dems when the reasoning behind it is based on an extremely limited, narrow, and especially controversial viewpoint. Not that the poster doesn't have the *right* to do it. Of course he/she does. But I have the right also and the desire to do what I think is best and rebut the argument. Now that we're getting closer to the elections, I believe that we should encourage a little bit more level-headedness and perspective for the big picture in regards to how we vote -- rather than encourage the constant, various threats from individual dems that boil down to "I won't vote for ANY Democrat who doesn't stand for X" (and that happens around here *constantly* lately, at least daily).

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I don't know about "unequivocally". But I find nothing in, for example,

Senator Feingold's statement on the current matter that I disagree with.

[mmonk]

52. But plenty missing.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. You said that. I didn't. Russ was supposed to bring up Rachel Corrie?

Uh Huh. Well, shit- here you are, having a discussion about the situation, and you haven't mentioned every single Israeli who has died a bloody death at the hands of a Palestinian suicide bomber. What's with the glaring, deliberate omission, there?

I'm well aware of who Rachel Corrie was, TYVM. I also find portrayals of the situation from the folks who use her as some kind of icon to be horribly one-sided. I'm sure, if I looked, I could find pictures of Israeli babies and small children whose bodies were horribly disfigured and mutilated by nails from a bomb in a falafel stand, for example. I could even stick them at the end of every post I make on the subject.

If the Palestinians had truly (as some so desperately want to assert) been waging a MLK-style, Ghandiesque non-violent struggle for liberation all these years, the arguments put forth by those people might hang together. Of course, if that were the case, I'm pretty sure The Palestinians would have a state by now. Unfortunately that has not been the situation, not in the least- and as although the details surrounding her death are disputed, as unfortunate as Ms. Corrie's circumstances clearly were.. to portray them as occurring in some kind of vacuum is disingenuousness of the worst sort.

[mmonk]

64. Likewise the other way around.

I didn't realize I was saying Russ should bring up Rachel Corrie. Putting words into my mouth? I will give this to Russ. He asked for restraint in the response where Clinton did not. I'm ok with him. I don't think the majority of the people dying in Lebanon right now are Hezbollah. Correct me if that is incorrect.

[Warren DeMontague]

65. We agree, I think. I happen to think Israel has overreacted. I especially

think the indiscriminate nature of the shit they've been doing in Lebanon is totally counterproductive, not to mention wrong.

But that doesn't mean Israel doesn't have any right to defend themselves. Doesn't mean Hezbollah (a "resistance" organization that has been resisting -what?- since 2000?) didn't needlessly start this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers from inside Israel, and asking for imprisoned "heroes" like Samir Kuntar in return.

As far as your post, you stated that there was a lot Russ didn't say, and posted a picture of Rachel Corrie. Apparently the two weren't related. My bad.

[mmonk]

67. Sorry,

I post her picture quite a bit and it doesn't have anything to do with each post. I catch a lot of flack for it but I think it was an unnecessary murder and not a suicide matyrdom. I share her distaste for bulldozing homes and sending the inhabitants to some sort of reservation and giving the land to someone else (dehumanizing). I'm not a fan of collective guilt and punishment either.

I think Hezbollah is nothing but a terrorist organization to kill Israelis and Jews worldwide. I wish somehow that it had been made to disarm.

I wish somehow that innocent Lebanese didn't have to die and I don't want a wider regional conflict and so my wish is not an overtly heavyhanded response (nor do I want the U.S. as a combatant or anything the administration will use to further its protracted war dreams). I wish we were in the peace broker business again instead of where we are.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. Amazing what a difference it made when we had President Gives-a-shit,

instead of Commander Hasn't-got-a-brain.

[mmonk]

78. Amen to that.

[cali]

55. I know exactly what you mean

I want a candidate who has the guts to say that we must take the interests of both sides in account. It's not much, but such a statement would indicate that the person had an interest in looking at the situation in a fair minded way.

[ecstatic]

56. Where does Kerry stand on this?

Is he taking the most popular stance, as usual? See, the the problem is, ever since 911, our elected Democrats have started to just take the most popular stance and its getting really irritating trying to figure out whether they truly believe what they're saying or they're just trying to keep their job.

[politicasista]

60. We should not single out one Dem

We should wonder where every Dem (DC outsiders included) stands on this.

[dogday]

82. I am concerned more with Iraq and our soldiers

My son and others who have been fighting there for years... Any Democrat that wants to bring them home and stop this war has my vote... As far as Israel goes, I really could not care less which side chooses what... To me, they are both culpable of their actions and they both have made bad decisions that have hurt their own people....

And Yes I will say it, I still support Feingold.. I am more interested in what is going on here right now.. We have enough of our own problems.....

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

62. Apologia for wanton destruction and killing of innocents bothers me, too.

Even if it's for Israel's actions.

[SammyWinstonJack]

63. I will vote for any Dem at anytime, I am a loyal Democrat. I will always

be one.

[NotGivingUp]

90. holy shit! you're one of THEM! you can't blindly follow ANY party!!!!!!

[AtomicKitten]

66. Good luck finding someone who breaks from the herd on Israel.

The Dems are in lockstep.

The lunatics are in charge and those who could stop them are in a coma on this crisis.

[NotGivingUp]

91. they're one and the same.

[WI_DEM]

68. Then you probably won't be voting democratic

[watercolors]

69. No more money to Israel!

I feel the same, we have carried them long enough.

[Swamp Rat]

75. !