Are Hezbollah and Israel morally equivalent?

[Clarkie1]

In order to have any serious discussion of the current crises, we need a starting point. Many here argue that Israel and Hezbollah are morally equivalent. Instead of debating that point, let's just consider a question that I think will put the issue to rest:




If Hezbollah had nuclear weapons, and Israel did not, what do you think would happen?

[voter x]

1. YOU MUST BE KIDDING!!!!

Rethink this post....please.

[Renew Deal]

2. Why?

because you disagree?

[voter x]

3. Because

you are comparing a nation trying to preserve its existence to a terrorist faction that wants to destroy it. Tell me where the comparisons really are?

[Renew Deal]

5. There are none

[bloom]

36. huh?

You have the Palestinians who have trying to preserve what they had left of their country - with the "terroristic" Israelis trying to destroy everything they have.

And you have the Israelis who figure that it's their country now and think that the "terroristic" Palestinians are trying to destroy everything they have.

And you don't see any comparisons?

[voter x]

44. Which country was that?

Are you talking about the nation of Palestine? Preserve what?

The "terroristic" victims of the Holocaust who were slaughtered by the millions, trying to find a safe homeland, are destroying everything they have?

[bloom]

61. I am sure that the people who were living there

wanted to preserve their olive groves and their life where they had lived- probably for generations. To you they are not even people. What does that say?

Maybe you believe the lie that says that there was nobody living there when the Jews started relocating. Some people do. Makes the inconvenient truth of Israel's atrocities easier to dismiss.

It's always easier to think of the others who are the bad guys. It must be the German's fault that the Palestinians had their lands taken away and were killed if they didn't relocate. That's it.

[voter x]

63. go on and enlighten me with your knowledge....

"Maybe you believe the lie that says that there was nobody living there when the Jews started relocating. Some people do. Makes the inconvenient truth of Israel's atrocities easier to dismiss."

No, I believe that my people have been inhabiting that area for centuries. Nation upon nation has tried to remove the mark of the nations of Samaria and Judea. Look there, in the sand, there's your proof, we call it the wailing wall. It was built before "your" messiah" brought peace to the world.

"It's always easier to think of the others who are the bad guys. It must be the German's fault that the Palestinians had their lands taken away and were killed if they didn't relocate. That's it."

There were fewer then 60,000 arabs displaced in the area in 1948. Most of the Philistines currently inhabitting the region are Jordanian and Syrian refugees, relocated with the intent to overpopulate the area with non-Jews.

[bloom]

64. As if you would believe anything other than the propaganda

you've been taught.

[voter x]

65. oh really...

then I must go back and tell my hebrew school teachers, Rabbis, fellow students and congregants that it was all propaganda.

I know the difference.

You insult my existence as a Jew, and intelligence as an American. (not to mention DU'er)

I should question my beliefs because an Arab faction rooted in another Arab nation is being rooted out and destroyed? Fuck that.

Jews have been here for centuries, and we will continue to persevere, despite the ingnorance and hatred you and your kind display.

Sorry you can't understand what being Jewish means, but you can't.

[bloom]

73. Well you know what

nobody is saying that you shouldn't be here.

You are just assuming that people hate you and people of your ethnicity. It feeds victimhood.

Guess what - ALL countries/groups teach selectively. Mostly propaganda. Why Howard Zinn wrote his People's History. It's the same concept. History as the point of view & the myths that support the powerful - not the POV of the oppressed.

You might start by reading this (I'm sure you will think that it is all lies - but look up Balfour and Jabotinsky yourself).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_25144.html

Balfour himself would say in 1919, "In Palestine, we do not even propose to consult the inhabitants of the country and (Zionism's) immediate needs and hopes for the future are much more important than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who presently inhabit Palestine."

In 1923, Vladimir Jabotinsky (a founder of Zionism) wrote "The Iron Wall," an essay that laid out a direct comparison of expropriation of the Arabs with the genocide of the indigenous people of North America:

"There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the native population. Such an event has never occurred.
<snip>

"It matters not what kind of words we use to explain our colonization. Colonization has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by every Jew and by every Arab. Colonization has only one goal. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible. It has been necessary to carry on colonization against the will of the Palestinian Arabs and the same condition exists now.

"Even an agreement with non-Palestinians represents the same kind of fantasy. In order for Arab nationalists of Baghdad and Mecca and Damascus to agree to pay so serious a price they would have to refuse to maintain the Arab character of Palestine.

"We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall through which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy."

That pretty well disputes any of your notions that there was nothing to preserve. That the people there were "relocated with the intent to overpopulate the area with non-Jews".

Seems to me Sharon is known for his atrocities - you might look that up, too. If your teachers never mentioned it.

There is not some thing where the Jews are all good or all bad and everyone else is all bad or all good. There are bad and good all over the place.

But people ought to see atrocities for what they are. And right now - the bombing of Lebanon is an atrocity.

[voter x]

74. thanks for educating me...

actually I am an avid reader of Jabotinsky and many of the early Zionist. I don't agree with them either. My analogy would favor the native americans and the jews sharing more like qualities.

I stand firm by the fact that it is NOT LEBANON, THE LEBANESE PEOPLE WHO WE ARE TARGETING, BUT THE COCKROACHES THAT ARE INFESTING THEIR COUNTRY.

Is that so hard to understand?

One Truth and Not Two
by Uri Zvi Greenberg

(interpreted from Hebrew by Laurence Cramer)

Your Rabbis taught: A land is bought with money
You buy the land and work it with a hoe.
And I say: A land is not bought with money
And with a hoe you also dig and bury the dead.
And I say: A land is conquered with blood.
And only when conquered with blood is hallowed to the people
With the holiness of the blood.
And only one who follows after the cannon in the field,
Thus wins the right to follow after his good plow
On this, the field that was conquered.
And only such a field gives nourishing and healthy bread
And the house which arises on its hill is truly a fortress and a temple,
Because in this field there is honorable blood.
Your Rabbis taught: The messiah will come in future generations:
And Judea will arise without fire and without blood.
It will arise with every tree, with every additional house.
And I say: If your generation will be slow
And will not grasp in its hands and forcibly mold its future
And in fire will not come with the Shield of David
And in blood will not come with its horses saddled -
The Messiah will not come even in a far off generation.
Judea will not arise.
And you will be living slaves to every foreign ruler.
Your houses will be straw for the sparks of every wicked one.
And your trees will be cut down with their ripe fruit.
And a man will react the same as a babe
To the sword of the enemy -
And only your ramblings will remain - yours...
And your statue, an eternal curse.
Your Rabbis taught: There is one truth for the nations:
Blood for blood - but it is not a truth for Jews.
And I say: There is one truth and not two.
As there is one sun and as there are not two Jerusalems.
It was written in the Law of Conquest of Moses and Joshua
Until the last of my kings and my traitors have consumed.
And there will be a day when from the river of Egypt until the Euphrates
And from the sea until the mountain passes of Moav my boys will go up
And they will call my enemies and my haters to the last battle.
And the blood will decide: Who is the only ruler here.


eom.

[Leopolds Ghost]

84. Perhaps that's why Israelis also dislike Palestinian christians, since..

...us Christians don't believe such nonsense. "A land must be bought with blood" my ass. You must be quite a fan of Deuteronomy.

As for parallels between Israelis and Native Americans, there are many. Both were victims of genocide, and both perpetrated ethnic cleansing and killing against nearby tribes who were related to them in order to carve out a niche elsewhere (see: Iroqois Confederacy, Aztecs, Sioux, Navajo, in fact pretty much all the most famous and successful Indian nations got started by persecuting, killing or torturing their neighbors. You have to take the good with the bad... That's how the Hurons got mostly wiped out after they converted to Christianity, and stopped believing in the whole blood-and-soil stuff which Israelis and Arabs apparently subscribe to.)

Now, Westerners did the same thing and worse. Does that make it right?

[liberalhistorian]

94. Bullshit it isn't the Lebanese people they're targeting!

The destruction of residential areas, critical infrastructure, the means to the production of critical supplies like food and milk, the deaths and wounding of hundreds of civilians, etc., etc. BULLSHIT that they're trying to "save" the Lebanese people and not targeting them!

[Critters2]

78. Jews left, for whatever reason, after the Bar Kochba uprising

In the intervening 2000 years, the Palestinians lived there. They were there when refugees began arriving after WWII. It was their land, and it was taken from them.

And you might ask your Hebrew teachers and rabbis what the Tanakh means when it teaches "an eye for an eye". Because, it sure as hell doesn't mean what Israel is doing to Lebanon.

G-d may have given the land to Israel, but G-d also gave the law, with the understanding that possession of the land is contingent on keeping the law. Israel does not ahve license to kill with impunity.

[TankLV]

100. And for how many THOUSANDS of years were the Jews there?

A lot longer than THAT!

[Critters2]

122. That will matter when you move away from wherever you live,

and let the Native Americans have their land back.

All peoples invade, all people are invaded. You don't have the right to show up thousands of years later and ask for your land back. Do you seriously think that the Pomeranians who live where my ancestors used to would just give me that land back?

It was the Palestinians' land. How do I know? They were living on it!!!

And again, possession of the land of Israel was always contingent on keeping the Law. Read the prophets--especially passages about how to treat sojourners and foreigners, and again, that "eye for an eye" stuff.

[Critters2]

125. Actually, it probably wasn't a lot longer than that

at the outside, Hebrews were on the land for about the same amount of time that they were gone in the Diaspora. It's possible they weren't there that long. But no reasonable scholar believes they were the "a lot longer than that". Remember, by the Hebrew calendar, history stretches back less than 7000 years. Take into consideration the exile, the generations in Egypt, the time before Abraham arrived in Canaan, and you don't have a whole lot of time for Jews to have been on the land.

I don't take scripture literally, but historians don't think Jews were there as long as you seem to think they were, either.

[Critters2]

126. Again, you're wrong on your history

The Wailing Wall is the Western foundation wall of Herod's temple. Built slightly before Jesus' life, but not much. The second temple, of which the Wailing Wall is a remnant, is contemporary with Jesus. Indeed, he worshipped there. And it was fairly new at the time.

And 60,000 displaced persons doesn't strike you as a problem?

[voter x]

130. thanks, I too love Wikipedia.

:eyes:

yes, Herod did build retaining walls around the temple mount, where stood the second temple, which began construction around 517 B.C.E. or B.C. .....

-we are so far off topic at this point-

[Critters2]

132. Wikipedia, Hell

I do history and theology for a living.

Herod the Great built the Western Wall, to support his huge additions to the temple. The Wailing Wall ain't all that old, historically speaking. And it WASN'T there long before Jesus.

To return to topic...what role does keeping the Law play in keeping the land? Any thoughts?

[voter x]

135. sure,

I'm not orthodox, and don't adhere to the Halachic law as law of the land, however, there is a covenant that we made with Hashem, and to the people of Israel he gave the land of Canaan.

Truth be told, I feel in my opinion, that we need a homeland to preserve our heritage. Perseverance is a trait deeply ingrained in the Jewish psyche. After thousands of years of persecution, why can we not keep a few miles of land for ourselves?

I hate the thought of innocent people dying at the hands of any government.

Jews have been slaughtered for centuries, without provocation. Thanks to technology and military strength, now the couple million Jews (maybe 13 million worldwide) in Israel have a chance against the BILLION arabs, surrounding them on every side.

Simply put, we aren't here as society's footstools any longer.

-Jason

[Critters2]

136. A covenant is a two-way street

According to the Tanakh, the exile of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) was caused by that kingdom putting its trust in military might (trusting an alliance with Assyria and Egypt over G-d's ability to protect it). Judah placed religious dogma and ritual over care for the poor and other acts of kindness in terms of importance. Result:exile (loss of the land). You don't just get the land because Hashem says so. Israel is required to be above reproach ethically.

One of those ethical principles in war is proportionality...an eye for an eye... nothing more than one eye for one eye. That would hardly make Israel a footstool. But you don't get to be more powerful than other nations, either.

If history (and scripture) is any indicator, the actions Israel is taking will cost it the land.

[voter x]

137. unfortunately

that has been the routine.

But, there are some of us who have lived their life in accordance to what we believe to be Hashem's will. There is a place for us, and that is our homeland, Israel. Eye for and Eye or not, we have to take every measure to secure it.

Regardless of the size of Israel's might, there are still 1.31 billion Muslims. What are our chances?

[Critters2]

141. Rationalizing violations of Torah won't help

Nor will military might. The thing that always amazes me about torah is that it really is so very wise. The kind of military overkill that Israel is demonstrating now was the rule before Moses received the Law. With the Law came proportionality. It really is a brilliant measure of restraint--you hurt me, I hurt you just as bad, but no worse. It allows for a release of anger and punishment, but it doesn't allow for escalation. Why Israel can't see the wisdom of this I don't understand. But Israel violates this at her peril.

The people of G-D are not allowed to be the meanest mother on the block!

[voter x]

142. the last thing I do

is rationalize violations of the torah. 613 commandments, but how many are still relevant? Again, I'm conservative and believe that the discourse in the torah needs to be addressed in contemporary methods.

If Israel, the nation of people, not the state, behaved along the guidance of the books of Moses, then we wouldnt be in this situation.

But there I go spouting off about " My beliefs" which apparently are worthless to many here without lengthy exposition and historical rhetoric.

[Critters2]

143. Who said anything about lengthy exposition?

You don't get to blast the bejeezus out of a country because some of its residents kidnapped your soldiers. You get to kidnap some soldiers. Period. How hard is that?

[voter x]

150. not you,

Critter, but look around.

so, tit for tat, we struck back, and they reciprocated. Here we are. This is far from the last time, but, hopefully this won't escalate to complete regional warfare.

[Critters2]

152. I hope it won't

but I fear it will.

Shalom.

[Hawkowl]

121. You are MISTAKEN

Did you realize that nearly half of all Israeli citizens are ARABS? How is this possible? When the UN created Israel in 1947, the surrounding Arab countries immediately attacked to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The Arabs that stayed in their homes in Israel, were allowed to stay, the ones that fled or joined the attacking Arabs, they are the "refugees". Try to read a little history. It puts things in better context.

Does this justify Israel's current actions? No. It does explain the war that has existed for nearly 60 years.

[liberalhistorian]

93. It's damn past time to

quit invoking the Holocaust as justification for everything Israel does, including treating another race as subhuman, the way Jews were treated.

[martymar64]

146. The oppressed have become the oppressors

If you could only see the irony in their situation. They were the victims of a genocide attempt only to try genocide on another group less than a century later.

[voter x]

151. genocide on what scale?

"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.<1>"
Raphael Lemkin

So then Nagasaki and Hiroshima qualify as genocide as well, no?

[omenapoint]

119. Amen!

Hezbollah is evil.

[pcoresearch]

133. FIND THE FACTS

i'm not particularily taking sides here, but the one thing that needs to be said is this,

to most people isreal=good, hamas/hezbollah=bad. i obviously don't know everything so i will just say this. the wertenized media is the reason we think this. calling isreali's soldiers and everyone else terroriists or "militants". this imply's that the "militant" groups are only out to attack civilians without cause.

in this particular situation, hizbollah attacked isreali soldiers!!! no civilians. and in relation, isreal bombed the bierut airport and has killed more than 100 civilians!!!

if we were taking score it would look like this

Hizbolah
isreali soldiers killed = 2-5
isreali civilians killed = 4
total isreali's killed = maybe 10

Isreal
hizbollah soldiers killed = 10+ (i really have no clue right now so i apologize for my bad info)
lebanese civilians killed = 100+
total = 110+

if i were looking at these stats i would think differently. but the point to my post is, don't consider one group good and one bad simply because people tel you to. FIND THE FACTS!!!

[AnOhioan]

91. The OP learned a very biased polling technique

Also very obvious.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clarkie1]

6. The length of that red bar is a measure of the level naivite here on DU.

I'm glad to see at least it's shorter than the other bar.

[Bretttido]

9. Well its good to see you setup a poll just so you could belittle anyone

that didn't vote the way you wanted... (I didn't even vote btw)

[T Town Jake]

12. Exactly right. Excellent poll, btw.

:thumbsup:

[Scurrilous]

40. I too am disgusted to see DUers...

...take the Hezbollah view.

[Leopolds Ghost]

85. I'm disgusted with anti-semitism in general.

Unfortunately, Israel suffers from a lesser form of anti-semitism directed outwards at their Arab (Semitic) neighbors. Sort of a form of reverse racism, since Israelis and Palestinians are so closely related. But the only real comparison between Israel and her neighbors is when Israel and Hezbollah engage in conventional warfare -- which is what is happening now.

[TankLV]

101. Me too, unfortunately.

And quite shocked.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bretttido]

7. This is nothing but flamebait.

[bryant69]

10. Because it is better for us to avoid ugly truths

We must endevor to preserve our illusions at all costs.

[voter x]

20. the History of the Jews

is no Illusion.

[bryant69]

30. OK. I don't know you are talking about, but ok.

[voter x]

35. in reference to your illusion comment

I might have misunderstood, but it sounds like you were saying the OP had a point, and that preserving illusions was wht some of us were attemtping to do here.....I may be taking this issue too personally....

[liberalhistorian]

95. Which gives them NO right to turn around and

do the same thing to another race!

[Critters2]

134. Not another race

They're both Semitic.

[Pepper32]

37. I agree n/t

[stepnw1f]

45. I Agree (nt)

[bryant69]

8. This may get locked

Any serious discussion of the Israel / Palestinian / Hezbollah conflict leads to hurt feelings and anger and name calling.

But the answer is there is no way of knowing; assuming nothing changed but Hezbollah got handed the bomb by a third party, there's little reason to think they would show restraint. I assume they would threaten to use it before actually using it; but if Israel and the west did not acceed to their demands, they would probably use it.

THere is no way for Hezzbolah or Hamas to get all that they want without eliminating Israel. There is a way for Israel to get what it wants without eliminating the Palestinian people. That's not to say Israel has acted morally in all situations - they haven't.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[leftofthedial]

11. what's with the bait and switch?

that's a far more complex question than can be addressed in a binary poll.

[cigsandcoffee]

13. If Hezbolla had nukes, the question would be answered in one word...

Kaboom.

[MGD]

29. They are hate-filled religious fanatics and wouldn't hesitate to use nukes

if it achieved their goal of finally destroying Zion. There is no doubt.

[TankLV]

102. No doubt about it. That is their goal, too.

The distruction of the state of Israel.

It says it in their "charter".

Someone else posted it countless times here.

But why let a little inconvenient TRUTH get in the way of a good argument?

[Clarkie1]

14. Actually, the question posted is not complex.

It is quite a simple question.

The solutions to the current crises are complex, but answers to complex problems require a firm grounding in more basic, simple truths.

[bryant69]

While I generally agree with you; there are no basic simple truths

The very idea of basic simple truths is a lie.

Bryant

[leftofthedial]

18. the question in the poll is not the question in the subject line

for starters, Hezbollah is a resistance movement and a political party, not a country.

Personally, I do not think they would use nukes preemptively if they had them.

[cigsandcoffee]

21. What gives you faith in their moderation?

[leftofthedial]

24. they are politically astute

and, if recent history is any indication, Hezbollah is FAR more restrained than Israel, who have been stomping all over Palestine like jack-booted storm troopers.

[cigsandcoffee]

39. What on earth makes you think they're politically astute?

If it wasn't for the valuable support of bleeding heart nutjobs around the world, they wouldn't bother being political at all.

[leftofthedial]

48. "bleeding heart nutjobs" -??

go kill a stray kitten. it'll make you feel better. I promise.

[cigsandcoffee]

51. I'll define "bleeding heart nutjobs."

People who are so ass-backward and unaware that they'll find common cause with repressive and violent Islamist terrorist organizations like Hamas or Hezbolla so that they can feel they are rooting for a valiant underdog. They're morons, but oh so useful to the people who want to perpetuate the killing.

As to your kitten comment, I'll just leave that silliness be.

[leftofthedial]

53. I never stated common cause with EITHER side in this conflict

Both sides are contemptible.

I still do not believe that Hezbollah (the most successful political force in Lebanon, one of the most powerful in Syria as well) would preemptively use nukes if they had them. They have used terror tactics to achieve political goals. So has Israel. Israel is proving right now that they can cause mass destruction using conventional weapons.

[cigsandcoffee]

55. What do you think Hezbolla wants?

There is nothing moderate about their primary declared goal - that Israel cease to exist. Give them nukes, and that mission statement is realized. It's really that simple.

[leftofthedial]

56. hezbollah wants the same thing Likud wants--

power.

[burythehatchet]

62. and only war guarantees power

[cali]

71. bullshit.

You need to do some research. H'zbollah isn't coy about their aims.

[leftofthedial]

77. And Likud is hardly coy about theirs. Hezbollah aren't nice guys

but like any political organization, for example, the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, or Likud, one must be careful to distinguish between their actions and their rhetoric. Plus, like all political organizations, their rhetoric changes depending on the target audience.

You don't have the slightest idea how much or what kind of "research" I've done. Neither Hezbollah nor Likud are to be cheered.

[Leopolds Ghost]

87. Let's not forget that Likud wants to wipe Palestine off the map.

And drive its people across the Jordan River.

Hard-core Zionism is a very reactionary philosopy. As the name implies, Gaza, Judea and Samaria has been populated by non-Jews since well before the Roman occupation. There are reasons Israel and Samaria separated.

The reason the same neighborhoods are populated primarily by non-Jews today is simple -- historical inertia. Most of the Jews who returned to Palestine/Israel are the descendents of the brothers of the very same Canaanites who became Samaritans and later became quote-unquote "Arab" Christians/Muslims. To the extent that the Jewish refugees of Europe are authentically Jewish descendants, science has shown that Canaanite or Semitic ancestry is the only thread tying the Israelis and Palestinians together. From a historical, ethnographical point of view, this is an inter-familial feud.

[TankLV]

103. Ahh - revisionst history masquerading as fact again.

Nice try - but we know the truth.

[leftofthedial]

112. who is "we"

and what "truth" do you know?

[coalition_unwilling]

57. Thank you for telling it like it is. It sickens me that so many

DU'ers who can recognize injustice everywhere else (like South Africa, for example) can't recognize it here.

[cali]

70. Yeah, they're so

restrained that in 1994 they bombed a Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires- like that's really connected to the fighting in the mideast. 95 died in that little exercise of restraint. They also bombed the Israeli embassy there, killing 29. Yes i realize that was 12 years ago, but that's not exactly ancient history. This defense of H'zbollah is ludicrous. While I may harshly criticize Israel, I will never align myself with Taliban style fundamentalists.

From The Council on Foreign Relations:

"What major attacks is Hezbollah responsible for?
Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s;
the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;
the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane’s pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;
two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina—the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five).
a July 2006 raid on a border post in northern Israel in which two Israeli soldiers were taken captive. The abductions sparked an Israeli military campaign against Lebanon to which Hezbollah responded by firing rockets across the Lebanese border into Israel."

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/

[leftofthedial]

79. by comparison to Likud's Israel

that is equivalent restraint

[JVS]

67. Because they know that if they nuke Israel, they won't be able to...

inhabit it either.

[Mandate My Ass]

22. Sounds like the same rationale Bush used to invade iraq

A nonexistent anticipated threat based on subjective judgement of the enemy and what they would do if they could.

[Bretttido]

23. Exactly

[martymar64]

147. Its a push poll

Therefore, its Bullshit.

[T Town Jake]

Nothing "complex" about it:

the simple fact is that if Hezbollah possessed nuclear weapons they would not hesitate to use them against Israel. It is THAT cut and dried.

[leftofthedial]

49. and you know this how?

what restraint has Israel shown in the region?

none recently.

[T Town Jake]

58. Ah, change the subject. Neato "debate" tactic...

...I had to give it up in about the eighth grade, though, when this maturity thing started coming on...

[leftofthedial]

68. Mr. Mature, based on what neato evidence

do you claim that Hezbollah would use nukes?

would they use them preemptively?

congratulations on making it through eighth grade. :thumbsup:

[TankLV]

105. Oh, I dunno -

the countless buss bombings and car bombings of INNOCENT Israeli men, women and children in Israeli cities, towns and villages over the past - oh - 60 years or so?

Name one instance where Israel did that. Just one.

[leftofthedial]

115. Israel uses their military to attack Palestinian communities

and Arab communities and Lebanese communities, destroying infrastructure and killing civilians

I condemn them for it.

Hezbollah uses civilians and explosives to attack Israeli communities, destroying infrastructure and killing civilians

I condemn them for it.

Name just one instance when Hezbollah bulldozed an Israeli settlement. Just one.

:shrug:

[TankLV]

104. Israel already has nukes. It's a proven fact. They have already shown

restraint.

History bears this out.

Sorry to be the bearer of "bad" news to you, or rather and inconvenient TRUTH!

[Dhalgren]

15. If Hezbollah were a nation with nukes and Israel was a small

militia in the corner of a neighboring country, Hezbollah would not nuke Israel.

[cigsandcoffee]

19. Indeed. Because any Jews not killed would have long since fled.

Hezbolla is not moderate in their aims. Don't pretend they are.

[Dhalgren]

26. The "aims" of a nation and the "aims" of a small militia are not the

same. Don't pretend they are.

[cigsandcoffee]

32. Hexbolla is far from a "small militia"

They are funded and backed by Iran, enjoy parliamentary representation, and control all of Southern Lebanon. We're not talking about a loose coalition of nutjobs in the Michigan wilderness here.

[Dhalgren]

33. We may not be "talking" it, but we aren't far from it...

[cigsandcoffee]

38. We're light years from it.

Hezbolla is to a "small militia" what the USA is to the Isle of St. Kitts. Don't kid yourself.

[Dhalgren]

41. The only people kidding themselves here, is the "Israelis firsters"

"What if the Hezbollah were giants and could step on the Israelis? Would they?" Umm...I don't know Margo, whata you think? Bullshit...

[leftofthedial]

69. compared to Israel, Hezbollah is small

if their situations were reversed, do you think Hezbollah would use nukes?

despite your rabid hatred for Hezbollah, determining "moral equivalency" (the subject of the OP) requires an examination of BOTH parties.

[MGD]

25. That wasn't a choice though.

All things remaining equal, I believe with 100% conviction Hezbolla would use the nuke on Israel if they had it. I don't think the ramifications would concern them for a second.

[leftofthedial]

80. by "all things remaining equal," do you mean remaining as they are

or if Hezbollah and Israel had equal power?

Not flaming or anything, just seeking clarification.

[MGD]

82. I mean if everything else remained unchanged

Hezbollah wouldn't hesitate to use nukes on Israel. Just MHO.

[leftofthedial]

86. We disagree.

Using nukes preemptively would be the ultimate losing scenario for Hezbollah AND for all their sponsors.

They are not stupid.

[MGD]

88. They are committed to destroying Israel

It's practically their raison d'etre. As for their sponsors, I understand your thinking but I still think the lure of solving the "Jewish problem" once and for all in the middle east would be more temptation than any of them could handle. These people are fanatical in their beliefs; the extermination of Israel isn't just some kind of nationalist idea that they seek to capitalize upon, it is their hate filled stated agenda. History proves that hatred like that leads to things like genocide.

[leftofthedial]

110. It would take multiple nukes to "solve" the Jewish problem

nukes are far more effective as deterrents and as threats than as strategic weapons.

nuking Israel would be sure suicide for Hezbollah. It would mean almost immediate destruction of major cities and targets in Syria, Iran and possibly other countrie as well.

so if Hezbollah is blind with hatred and a desire for destruction of Israel, why didn't they use their missiles before now?

Why? Because it would have been politically unwise. It makes sense now because of Israel's extreme tactics.

[TankLV]

106. Yes. They are. Stupid. Very Stupid.

The past has born this out.

[leftofthedial]

111. evidence?

[martymar64]

148. But they don't and never will have nukes.

The whole premise is hypothetical bullshit.
How about this?

If the Palestinians renoiunced all violence and decided to engage in passive resistance, would the Israelis stop opressing them and abandon their illegal settlements? Or would they ratchet up the oppression and start firing up the ovens and showers for their Palestinian victims to bring about their "Final Solution to the Paleastinian Problem".

[whosinpower]

16. I don't know Hezbollah

So I can't definitavely answer that.

However - the true power of nuclear weapons is not in the using of them. It is the bargaining tool of owning them. Perhaps it would force Israel to be more conciliatory - go back to its 1949(???) borders etc, allow displaced palestinians back or whatever the grievances really are.....see I am not even sure what it is all about.

Perhaps there would be a big black hole where the middle east used to be, and radiation poisoning for the rest of the planet to contend with.

[maxsolomon]

17. reality is not black & white

stop trying to make it so.

it is a GOP tactic.

[cali]

27. unintentionally, one of the funnier remarks

I've seen in a while. DU is filled to the brim with Manichean thinking. We do a lot of black and white thinking around these parts. It has zippo to do with a GOP tactic.

[maxsolomon]

47. yeah, its a crack up

the GOP has been reducing everything into simplistic "with us or agin us" arguments as long as i've been voting - 24 years now.

the inability of the american voting public to see past this is killing our nation & planet.

[Bretttido]

28. But but but... what about the Axis of EVIL???

[tocqueville]

31. it's not a question of "morality" but of "realpolitik"

If the Hezbollah had nukes they wouldn't use them, not because they didn't want to, but because they wouldn't take the risk of being nuked. You don't nuke your neighbour. If the Hezbollah had nukes, there wouldn't be a conflict and a settlement with Israel would already have been reached.

If the Hezbollah had nukes they would probably bully all their Sunni neighbours and probably threaten Saudi Arabia
which of course would acquire nukes very rapidly (btw they are already in the procees of doing it).

If the Hezbollah had nukes, Iran had nukes and Iraq had never been invaded.

Morality : if you want to be in peace from Western influence and bully your neighbour, have nukes. Not to use them, but to feel and act as a major player.

[azurnoir]

34. Maybe it should be asked

what stops Israel from nuking Hezbollah (at least in Lebanon)? Could it be that the distance between the two would guarantee mutual destruction with one bomb? Israel is only about 200 to 250 miles north to south. If either nuked the the other the nuclear "fallout" would affect both.

[bloom]

42. The question doesn't make sense

because if Hezbolla had the superior military force - there would be a different situation over there.

Nukes are never a good idea close to where one lives. It would be like Connecticut bombing Rhode Island. That doesn't make sense either.

[PHXModerate]

43. hEZBOLLAH IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION

DON'T you think Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and Israel is a nation trying to live in peace?

There's a big difference.

[Laotra]

59. No. n/t

[ThomCat]

76. Israel has never made a serious effort to live in peace.

They want military dominance. Their idea of peace is that everyone else is beaten into the mud.

[TankLV]

108. I can't believe you two.

There is no use in further discussin this issue with you both then.

You know nothing.

You have removed all doubt.

[ThomCat]

117. We know history.

You know nationalistic dogma.

[Libertino]

46. A Just War doesn't justify ANY means

Obviously, you cannot compare Israel with Hezbollah.(one is a nation, the other a terrorist organization)

Nevertheless, just because Israel(or more accurately, the current government) is a nation and has a right to defend itself does not make it immune from acting in unjust ways.

There is a lot of room for criticism.

[Laotra]

60. "Just war"

is one of the most loathsome Christian inventions. There is no such thing. Blessed are the peace makers.

[ShortnFiery]

72. Correction: Hezbollah is an ORGANIZATION, part of which holds political

power in Lebanon's "democratically elected" government.

I don't buy into "white and black" logic. Part of what hezbollah does on the political and public works areas HELPS their people.

[burythehatchet]

50. What is this, crappy poll day on DU?

[Laotra]

52. Moral equivalence

To quote Chomsky: there is no such thing.

[xultar]

54. I belive the Israel will be the first to drop a nuclear weapon.

[MGD]

89. Only in the face of annihilation IMO.

If they are backed into such a corner, they will definitely use their nuclear weapons.

[TankLV]

109. Why? They already have it, and have yet to use it.

Israel has proven itself.

The TERRORISTS have proven otherwise.

We only have history to back us up.

If what some of you wackos were correct, since Israel has had nukes for some time now, Israel would have used them alread by your logic.

This had not happened.

The TERRORISTS do not yet have nukes. They are constantly trying to get them. There sole reason is to wipe Israel off the map. Just what do you all think this means?

This proves the latter scenerio as the correct one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. How about Hezbollah and the Continental Regulars?

Didn't George Washington once cross the Delaware and kidnap a bunch of Hessians?

[Lilith Velkor]

83. *snarf*

:spray:

[fujiyama]

81. It's impossible to know for sure

but Hezbollah is a violent religiously fanatic terrorist group. I wouldn't trust them with nukes. I don't like Likud having control of nukes either, but so far they haven't used them. Plus, I don't view the leaders of Israel as suicidal, as the fallout in such a small vicinity couldn't be good for Israel either.

Unfortunately, Hezbollah has also taken advantage of the political vaacum in Lebanon and has grown in power as a political force.

The Lebanese government is obviously inept and impotent to stop Hezbollah in any meaningful way, but Israel's recent incursion will be a temporary "victory" at best. As more civilians get killed on the Lebanese side, support for the group will likely rise. I'm not convinced that this will hurt Hezbollah in the long run...

[mmonk]

90. Oh geez, another talking point

that can be used to absolve Israel of its heavy handedness. I hate Hezbollah. I generally support America supporting Israel in general. But I must confess I'm losing that feeling.

[rug]

92. This is the stupidest thing I've seen since Bush groped the Chancellor.

[Zhade]

96. What a bullshit poll.

First off, an honest poll would say "Israeli government", not Israel, as it's clear to anyone with half a brain that not all Israelis support the Israeli government's aggression against Lebanon.

[mmonk]

98. True

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

99. I can't believe anybody would believe that first one!

I am totally speechless!

And it explains alot.

Mainly, how IGNORANT these persons are!

[Dr Fate]

107. Would the survivors use their sticks & stones against the other survivors?

After all, WWIV will be fought with sticks & stones...

THAT is my starting point.

[Clarkie1]

113. 33%. Incredible, absolutely incredible.

Just...incredible.

I am reminded of the root of the word...literally meaning "having no credibility."

[Freedom_Aflaim]

114. Hezbolla. Moral. Restraint

LMAO

I'm suprised my computer didnt blow up with those 3 words in one sentence.

[norml]

123. It wouldn't be "Moral Restraint". It would be an understanding...

that the rules of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) still apply, for whomever used such weapons, and for whomever supplied them.

[oc2002]

116. that is a silly poll.

if Hezbola had the nukes Israel had, it would be Hezbola that would be in control of Palestine(now called Israel).

Israel would not even exist to be bombed!

[leftofthedial]

118. guess what?

It appears that Jews and Muslims even hate one another on DU.

I wish there were more atheists.

[Clarkie1]

124. What does that have to do with the OP? nt

[leftofthedial]

153. it has to do with our collective inability

to discuss the OP without attacking one another

[El Fuego]

120. Hezbollah exists only to destroy Israel. It's their mission statement.

[ShortnFiery]

128. There are PRODUCTIVE and LIFE-PROMOTING aspects to some segments

of Hezbollah. No I don't buy into the meme. Not at all. No one organization is either PURE EVIL nor PURE CHARITY.

[El Fuego]

129. Their own words

Hizbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said:

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel. Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation. "



http://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/issue14/intnews/israel.html

[ShortnFiery]

131. Well here's a clue: Israel best WORK WITH them more because

as hard as they try, as many billions they are given in weapons from the USA, the will NOT ... I say again: They will NOT kill them all. Talking With and integrating more within their culture JUST MAY help to START bridging this large gap in culture and human understanding.

But no, bombing them into the Stone Age only breeds more Terrorists. Gee, it's beyond time ... way beyond time to learn that hard, but TRUE lesson. :(

[atomicdawg38]

127. It doesnt shock me

Awwww won't bother. However, I believe Israel is doing the right thing.

[noonwitch]

138. Israel has not vowed to wipe a whole people out

Hezbollah has vowed to destroy Israel, despite the numerous Palestineans who also live in the areas they are launching missles into.

[martymar64]

149. But that's their intent, whether they say explicitly or not

Why do the settlements keep growing in the West Bank?

[cracksquirrel]

139. #2

This poll shows me that the majority of DUers ARE in fact sane rational people.
Or DU is controlled by the zionists/aliens/lizzard-men-from-the-center-of-the-earth just like the MSM.
:sarcasm:

[MoseyWalker]

140. I don't know, but think this

Nuclear weapons would be a desperate measure by a desperate people. On both sides. Israel has immense military might, and has not had to pull that option yet, because they have not gotten desperate. Hezbollah, and with the destruction of their country, by extension, the general Lebanese population, may become desperate. May become.

Hezbollah wants to annilate Israel, and Israel wants to annilate Hezbollah. Both are willing to kill civilians at random in those efforts. It seems to be the accepted method of warfare these days. Hezbollah kidnaps Israeli soldiers. Israel takes thousands of possibly Hezbollah Lebanese, and locks them up for decades without charges.

They both are foolish, cruel, inhumane and indefensible.

[izzybeans]

144. I've got a survey construction book you can borrow.

It will help.

[bridgit]

145. Israel would cease to exist...