Polarization in Mexico, CALDERON's vehicle surrounded by OBRADOR group

[UTUSN]

I understand that there are well informed, committed supporters of AMLO here. As a big-tent Democratic party member I have voted for all stripes of Dem, my first preference or not, and with this as a parallel, I'm not arguing about CALDERON vs OBRADOR here, merely passing along a news item.

No link. Just saw it on Univision. CALDERON's SUV was surrounded by a group of AMLO's supporters, who were yelling, throwing the finger, kicking and hitting the vehicle. The final results won't be certified until, I think, September 6. Although some recent threads here have raised the hope that AMLO's videos proving fraud are conclusive enough to overturn the current results, it is difficult to see that happening, and either way the polarization is going to make "victory" for either side not worth having.

[Poll_Blind]

1. This and what's going on in Iraq are unfortunately blotted out...

...by the shenanigans in the Middle East. It's disturbing but, in some instances uplifting when I hear what the Left is doing to prevent a U.S.-style theft of elections in Mexico.

PB

[EFerrari]

2. I guess it's a bad idea to try to screw people out of their vote

and then drive among them.

[John Q. Citizen]

3. Why can't the Mexican people just compromise on having their vote

stolen?

Sheesh, it's only a little trifeling matter like representive government.

I hope they didn't cause any property damage to his car. That would be criminal!

[Libertino]

4. A plurality, not majority

Whoever ends up 'winning' the official count.

Either way, you cannot just dismiss the millions who voted for Calderon. They will soon also be out there in the streets. This does not look pretty.

p.s. Just because the majority of Mexicans are poor doesn't mean that they will automatically vote for Obrador. Sure, voting for Calderon (or the PRI) might go against their interests. However, that happens all the time in democracies (just look at America!)

[Laotra]

6. Indeed

Many of the poor are payed or black-mailed to vote PRI or Calderon (give your vote or loose your job etc.)

The rich and better off will not march, at least in millions, but they may try to send the army.

[UTUSN]

11. Exactly n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

19. A plurality, not majority, Just like the US in 1992?

Who said standing up for ones rights is pretty?

it's usually very ugly, standing up for ones rights.

Of course Mexico already knows the ruling party can and will steal an election. There is virtually no one in the entire country who doesn't believe the PRI stole the '88 election. (That was a plurality also) I believe this precedent has energized people to fight for this one.

On the other hand, one can just decide it's not worth the hassle, the violence, the struggle and just go home and except that your life, your home, your future is in the hands of crooks and liars.

Many make that decision. It isn't exactly pretty either, though.


PS

Thanks for cluing me in on that. I thought people voted logically, spent money logically, chose their spouses logically, etc. I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!

[UTUSN]

5. Whoever "wins" it will be a stalemate. I hope the sarcasm

wasn't aimed at my point, which is that it's going to be ugly, probably violent.

[BrotherBuzz]

12. Nobody wins as it stand now....

The worst outcome is one in which a third of the voters are left thinking the election was fraudulent or stolen. The beauty of López Obrador's position (recount) is that he offers an opportunity for closure,

[John Q. Citizen]

15. If the election was stolen, it either needs to be remedied peacefully,

violently, or both.

But it does need to be remedied.

If the people want to have representitive government, that is.

That was my point.

Many people forget that even Ghandi's "non-violent" civil disobedience against British imperialism resulted in lots of violence against Ghandis followers. They were willing to (and did) die for their convictions.

Also, there were other Indian groups violently resisting the Brits. So it put Ghandi in a good position with the Brits when they finally decided they'd had enough of Empire in India.

Any time someone stands up and says "No, you can't rip me off" it creates the very real potential for violence.

Yet, I believe that standing up and refusing to be ripped off is the right thing to do. The alternative hasn't been working very well for the majority of people in Mexico for the last 75 years.

[jsamuel]

7. no offense, but I don't come to the same conclusions as you

[druidity33]

8. me neither n/t

[IndyOp]

10. What conclusions do you reach? I could guess, probably, but... (n/t)

[IndyOp]

9. Lopez Obrador has counciled calm & he will speak sternly to

his supporters if they become violent. I support AMLO. More importantly, I support the democratic process.

Given that some ballots packs are known to have been opened since the first count (in a manner that is illegal) - it is hard to know whether the recount requested by the AMLO campaign (PRD) will reveal the votes that AMLO got on election day or whether it will reveal ballots for Calderon stuffed by PAN supporters.

AMLO is connected to the people in a way that Calderon is not.

I believe the Tribunal should listen to all evidence of election fraud as soon as the AMLO campaign is ready to present it and I believe that the Tribunal should - based on that evidence - hand the election to AMLO.

The sooner the better. I think the powers-that-be in Mexico ought read Langston Hughes’ “Harlem: A Dream Deferred”

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun
Or fester like a sore—

And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over—

Like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

[KaptBunnyPants]

13. The Left should just get over it.

They need to quit being sore-losermen, and just give in to PAN. The right wing is too riled up, even if AMLO won the recount he would never be able to govern properly. He should bide his time until the next election cycle, Calderon will be too weak to pass his agenda anyway so the left should just give up without fighting the probable election fraud. /sarcasm

Seriously - did anyone else get a flashback to 2000 after hearing all this liberal handwringing about "OMG, we should just give up or people will think we're mean". That anyone can still argue for civility in response to a stolen election is startling.

edit: clarity

[UTUSN]

14. CALDERON will be just as gridlocked as FOX has been

I said so in the o.p. I hope your sarcasm was aimed elsewhere.

[KaptBunnyPants]

17. "...polarization is going to make "victory" ... not worth having"

I hate seeing that argument again, I don't buy it. Not after 2000, when Bush was supposed to be gridlocked. The nation, the House, and the Senate, were all evenly divided, and all the calm voiced talking heads on NPR and other so called liberal outlets were urging everyone to bide thier time. "What can Bush do? He lost the popular vote, he has slim majorities in the House and Senate, sure he'll be president, but he won't get anything accomplished and he'll be out in 4 years." Give right wingers long enough in power, and they will find ways to abuse it, which is what AMLO is accusing Fox of doing. If AMLO and his supporters believe this election was stolen, and they have every reason to, being concillatory is the absolute last thing they should do. If they steal this election and get away with it, they will be even better at it the next time. So unless the people of Mexico want to see the rise of a PRI-like period of PAN dominance, they had better start fighting it now.

[UTUSN]

20. I am talking about Mexico, today, and the potential for violence

As somebody posted above, the PAN people are not street fighters. Their force will be with the govenment's army doing violence on the underclass. FOX has been rated a failure for being gridlocked. Instead of you and me flailing at each other, if every single eligible voter would vote there would not be any Repuke in office here or any PAN/PRI over there. Elections that are close enough to steal happen because more people DON'T VOTE.

As I said in the o.p., I was attempting to keep from this thread being flames about PAN vs PRD, which is what your post is about. I was talking about the violence that is very possible to be done on the Mexican people.

[EFerrari]

16. "liberal handwringing"? LOL!

That's just hilarious.

We have every indication that our federal election was rigged. Any Democrat who isn't all over this isn't really paying attention.

I have no problem whatsoever being "mean" if it means my vote and yours are counted.

:)

[KaptBunnyPants]

18. I agree.

My post was perhaps poorly worded. And sarcasm is hard when people can't hear the tone of your voice...

[rman]

21. not the videos

The evidence is in the statistical improbability of last minute results from remote districts coming in at up to 100 to 1 in favor of Calderon, while the first 95% of results were approximately 1 to 1, several % in favor of Obrador.

Furthermore, i don't think this incident is creating polarization, or a result of a recent polarization, but rather that it is a result of many decades of polarization that results from suppression of the will of the people by a wealthy and influential corporate elite that has received more than a little help from the US government.

That said, i sure hope the people can control themselves and limit themselves to giving the finger and kicking vehicles.