Anyone who supports Israel's actions

[DoYouEverWonder]

against the people of Lebanon is playing right into Rove's hands.

We are being 9-11'd and we don't even know it.

The escalation of the ME conflict is right out of Rove's play book. It is a brilliant move.

Once again Americans are at each others throats.

The building opposition to the War in Iraq, has been split very effectively split with about half supporting Israel right to do whatever the fuck they please.

No one, no country has the right to invade another country and bomb them to smithereens. No one. Not Israel, not the USA, not Russia, no one.

In the meantime, BushCo has the distraction they desperately needed and while everyone is fighting with each other they continue to solidify their grip on power. If anyone thinks Bush intends to leave office at the end of his term, think again. This crew has no intention of ever leaving office.

[Swamp Rat]

1. !

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. I bet Rove

Grover and Perle are burning the telephone wires lately.

[Swamp Rat]

4. All part of the PNAC plan, Stan.

[Dhalgren]

You're absolutely right!

Now anti-war progressives are asking, "Why do you hate Israel?" This has driven a wedge into the Democratic Party and anti-war movement and it was done on purpose. As I asked in another thread, what does Israel expect to gain from this action? No good answer is ever given. I think you just gave the best answer I have heard, yet...

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Bush is using the Israelis

just like his daddy used the Cubans for decades.

Bush doesn't care if they all kill each other, has a matter of fact he's probably hoping they will.

Nothing would make his base happier then to see the destruction of the Temple Mount.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Sadly, I think you have a point

And I'm hearing the same kind of rhetoric over this issue as I've heard from the RW defense of the Iraq invasion, eg, "Israel has a right to defend themselves against terrorism!". It's so much the same -- Israel's response being disproportionate to the act which supposedly instigated the current offensive, no clear strategy for when "victory" will be achieved, accusing those who oppose the bombing of Lebanon of supporting terrorism, et al ad infinitum. It shocks me to hear so many DUers sound like war-banging freepers, especially those who, at least until now, considered themselves anti-war progressives.

Congratulations to those who have played right into the hands of the PNAC cabal. WAR is NOT the answer. Not in Iraq, not in Lebanon.

Will we never learn? (sigh)

[KittyWampus]

37. Steve Clemons posits Israel is trying to screw w/ US foreign policy

by over-reacting.

It has reduced our options in the ME.

[theHandpuppet]

44. Or expanded them, depending upon your point of view

From all the war banging propaganda I've been hearing via the American media, this may have just provided the Bushreich the excuse they were looking for to attack Iran, either by drawing out the Iranians by attacking Syria or more directly, as the "source" for the current conflict. And these aims could be achieved by proxy (Israel) with American support or by us directly. This is a lose-lose situation unless you're a born again PNACer.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

3. Oh for fuck's sake.

The world does not revolve around the United States and Karl Rove. Not everything is a Bushco plot. Jesus, the Middle East has its own probelms, entirely separate from Bush/Rove.

[cali]

5. Amen!

Can we get much sillier than posts like that?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. And Americans wonder...

...why the rest of the world thinks they're self-centered.

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. If you haven't been listening to the news lately

Many people in Bush's WH see no difference between US and Israeli interests and it is no longer us and them but rather 'we' when they speak about the conflict.

Open your eyes. This is all about US manipulation. It's just the Israeli's don't understand that they are going to get screwed too.

That's why Bush was eating PORK last week. He can't wait to see WWIII in the Middle East and the sooner they all kill each the better.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. Sorry, no.

I live outside of the US and I'll be damned if I'm going to view every fucking event in this world through the same lens, whether that lens is apropriate or not.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. Then you don't know how bad it is

Believe me it's bad.

FAUX News 24/7 everywhere you go and most people believe them. I even have to correct my own parents who are lifelong liberal Dems about the crap they hear and think is true.

[zanne]

23. Exactly. You don't know the U.S. media anymore nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

52. I do, in fact, know the American media.

I still stay very much on top of what's going on in the US, and I travel there frequently. I'm well aware of Fox, CNN's turn towards Fox-ism, etc, etc, etc. Yes, it sucks. But it doesn't have anything to do with the current situation in the Middle East, except to Americans.

[Occulus]

65. You really ought to know that that's exactly how this guy and his base

both think and act. I've been doing everything I can to learn as much as possible about this whole group of people for several hours a day since before his first election. If you don't think he and his are capable of such manipulation, please believe me, you are dangeously uninformed. In their minds, such is just fine, because they're doing the "right" thing, according to their whacked-out religious beliefs (and don't say religion plays no part in the ME conflicts over the centuries; we all know it does and always has).

These people are nuts. They and theirs actually believe they can incite Biblical Armageddon and by their own personal actions force Jesus to return. I mean that literally; they actually do believe such and will do everything in their quite considerable power to make that happen. It's the end of result of fundamentalism gone completely batshit, over-the-top crazy, and they're in charge of world events to a large extent. If you're not frightened of that to the point of being the color of new milk, in all honesty, you should be.

If one doesn't fully understand the lens they're looking through at the rest of the world, one can't comprehend their actions at all. Understanding their actions comes through realizing one single, very simple truth: they want a full-scale ME war, and badly. Following that, well, make up your own mind, but I'd say they would do things (what things? anything they think they can justify) to reach that "goal".

And it's all in the name of their religion. Sound familiar?

That sucking sound is the irony.....

[AntiFascist]

68. I have to agree with this...

it does seem to be a win-win situation for Israeli wingnuts and the neocons. Former Likudniks probably want to force the US into taking action in their conflict, claiming it is for their "defense." Neocons see this as a prime opportunity to play to their religious base as a last ditch attempt to open the PNAC plan. Faux News can't wait for the chance to televise the great conflict of Gog vs. Megog! Think of the ratings...

[Dhalgren]

30. I agree with you that the Mideast is a continuing and long-lived

problem, that has its own labyrinthine motivations, but there is still the question of why Israel is doing what it is doing. If Israel had stuck to bombing Hezbollah to smithereens there would not be nearly the international outcry that is now the case. Most people would have said that this was a conflict between Israel and Hezbollah and that Hezbollah has asked for it. But by attacking innocent Lebanese - Christian, Druze, Sunni, et al - Israel seems to be intentionally bringing an onus upon themselves that even sane Israelis are protesting against. Again, what do they hope to gain beyond their own vilification? Who is helped by this action and who is hurt? And why?

And don't give me any "Lebanon needs to clean up their own house" crap. The Israelis are fully cognizant of what the Lebanese government is capable of and not. The Israelis know how much and little power the Lebanese government has.

To me, this looks like an attempt to draw Syria and Iran into a shooting war - and that suits the Dictator just fine. If we get into a bombing war with Syria and/or Iran then the Democrats can kiss November good-bye...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. Actually, it appears that most Israelis are supporting this...

...at least for now. And I'm basing that on a variety of international news sources. I have an idea of why Israel is doing this. I believe that at this point Israel and Hezbollah are playing a game of chicken, nothing more. Each is trying to make the other blink first. Eventually either the Israelis or the Lebanese are going to get fed up to the point of demanding an end to this from their respective combatants. Each side is trying to make that happen to the other side first.

Pitiful, but that's my asessment.

[zanne]

20. It won't seem silly come November.

We have to start fighting the propaganda now, or the Republicans will win by a landslide. Wait and see.

[cali]

31. I disagree

i think the repukes are in deep shit, and the mess in the mid east doesn't help them.

[zanne]

32. Well, I can only hope you're right....

But I don't think so.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. That why they need another

9-11 type event. Not necessarily another terrorist attack because that trick won't work anymore. But War in the ME will do just fine. See how many DEMS are lining up to support Israel that oppose Bush on the War in Iraq? Sure makes it a lot harder to oppose the War on Terra when you get Israel involved.

[sellitman]

51. I completely disagree

I support Israel and I am completely against the Iraq war and Tree 43. They are two separate wars fought for different reasons involving 4 different countries or groups of people.

You could of just as easily said that Tree 43 was behind the Hezbollah's capturing of israeli troops and the rocket bombing of Haifa. (Which would be equally ridiculous.)

I'm not saying the Repukes won't find a way to distract us but this ain't it.

[theHandpuppet]

21. While the conspiracy premise may be flawed, the results are the same...

... and so is the rhetoric I've been reading on these fora. So no, I don't think the OP's observations are "silly". IMHO the PNACers are probably pissing their pants with glee over this sorry turn of events. Someone just borrowed a page from their playbook.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. This action would not be taking place right now

if BushCo didn't give the green light.

[jonnyblitz]

26. exactly. We had a hand in this crime against humanity Israel

is perpetrating.

[Little Star]

36. Bush's green light on this is

what needs to be understood here on DU. This government wants this war if they didn't it wouldn't be happening. It's like the good cop (usa), bad cop (israel) routine. When will americans including some here on DU get it???

[goclark]

70. It has the RepubliCONS fingerprints all over it.

IMO.

I have tried to stay out of this debate because I realize that some, understandably, have Strong feelings.

Well I have strong feelings too.

Feelings that Bush doesn't give a snap about Israel/The Middle East or anyone else but his power hungry buddies.

They see it as a football game and they have now given Israel the Ball so that the WH can get some rest in Iraq.

It is a game play for the November Football Games in 06.

He doesn't care about the people of Israel! He doesn't care!

I bet if they had a Nixon Like Tape Recorder at the WH, we will learn the real story in 40 years.

[jdlh8894]

8. Thanks!

My Alcoa stock just went up again.

[malaise]

18. You must be fairly sick

is you're looking at stocks while innocents are being slaughtered.

[cali]

22. So everyone and everything

in this country should come to a screeching halt because innocents are dying. Innocents are dying all over the world all the time. I sure didn't notice you expressing similar outrage over Sudan.

[rman]

41. nice hyperbole

[Lerkfish]

12. agreed, HOWEVER, I do not put it past Rove and Bushco to EXPLOIT

this situation to their own agenda.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. Exploitation is different than causing the situation in the first place.

n/t

[Lerkfish]

19. um..dude, I NEVER said that.

unless you were directing that at someone else?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. The response was to your msg...

...however I think the message of the message, if you will, was directed at the OP. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Wasn't my intention.

[Lerkfish]

40. follow the thread, I was responding to YOUR post, and agreeing

but adding a "however".

Its hard to follow a thread here, sometimes. :)

[H2O Man]

28. Correct.

More, there are other forces within the administration that play greater roles in the US policy in the Middle East than Bush. (Rove plays no role; he does, of course, exploit the fear and violence.)

It is worth people's time to study the formation of the neoconservative movement. It began in the time of the "Six Day War." There is fascinating documentation of this in Taylor Branch's final book on America in the King years, "At Canaan's Edge."

While I appreciate the OP's warning that the conflict will be exploited by the parasite Karl Rove, it is perhaps more important that we consider placing it within the context of the neoconservative agenda within the USA. This, of course, includes the efforts to expand US involvement in violence in the Middle East. It is worth remembering that the AIPAC spy scandal, which involves the same cast of criminals as the Plame scandal, was about the effort to initiate a war with Iran. We should look closely at the folks involved in that episode.

[Lerkfish]

46. H20 MAN! where u been?

I've been missing your input in various threads. I keep getting fooled by someone who uses your same avatar.

[chimpymustgo]

84. H20 Man - excelllent post. Thank you this all, and all the insights,

information and perspective you bring to DU.

[leveymg]

102. You're right, there's a larger agenda driving this.

Plamegate-OSP-AIPAC was an plan that got sidetracked by the career CIA and Joint Chiefs of Staff. This Hezb'allah-Lebanon-Syria route is an alternate route to the same end: Iran's oil.

If you look at the central images being projected by the media, it comes down to "Iranian missiles" versus "US F-16s". Viewed in the dehumanized context of the weapons being used and the ultimate goal, the Lebanese and Israelis really aren't the key players here, at all. In the BushCo-Saudi petrofascist world view, Israel is also expendible.

This is leading to the next great prize: Iranian oil.

[Jawja]

57. And that's exactly what

they are going to do. Their henchmen in the media are already out there framing the issue as "WW III" and "Iran and Syria are responsible" and "great opportunity to take care of Iran" etc.

I believe that Israel and U.S. are working together on this in order to get their wider war, per the PNAC agenda.

[Clarkie1]

86. delete. nt

[Iktomiwicasa]

99. Abso-fucking-lutely

I hope Israel wipes the floor with Hezbollah.

[seafan]

10. Succinct and spot-on post, DoYouEverWonder. While we are fighting each

other over this escalating ME conflict...

..while we are outraged over *'s embryonic stem cell research veto yesterday..

..followed by new outrages by these criminals on a daily basis...

...time is bleeding away to address how we will have an accurate vote count in November, now less than 3.5 months from now.


When there is chaos, they will steal. And they are trying to distract us as long as they can, so they can run out the clock on any chance we have of an accurate election. And our chances of this are dying before our eyes if we do not act.


In the meantime, BushCo has the distraction they desperately needed and while everyone is fighting with each other they continue to solidify their grip on power. If anyone thinks Bush intends to leave office at the end of his term, think again. This crew has no intention of ever leaving office.

To repeat: This crew has no intention of ever leaving office.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. While after 6 years

we still have not managed to fix election law so that everyone is guaranteed that their vote is counted.

Yep, timing is everything here. That's why all the Dems seem to be in hiding at the moment.

[TomClash]

24. Israel's adventure in Lebanon has nothing to do with Rove

Ohmert is gambling that he can crush - or at least severely weaken - Hezbollah, restraining Iranian influence in southern Lebanon. The US is not putting pressure on him because it supposedly serves US purposes to pressure Iran and Syria. I think the attack is a mistake for many reasons. But this is Israel's deal. Splitting the American people has nothing to do with it.

Bush has to leave under the 22d Amendment - or he will be physically removed. Believe me, there are plenty of people willing to do just that.

Of course, Cheney could run for President.

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. When members of Bush's administration

are the same people who write Israeli policy, then you can be sure Rove is very involved. Rove may not be a PNAC principal, but he and Bush certainly sold their souls to that devil or Georgie Boy would still be looking for oil in TX.

BushCo/PNAC needs War in the ME NOW, just like they needed their Pearl Harbor event on 9-11.

[TomClash]

72. This reads like an excuse to let Israel and Hezbollah off the hook nt

[Rosemary2205]

27. HAHAHAHAHAHA

That was a joke right? I mean, you can't possibly actually think Hezbollah and Israel are in cahoots on an anti-Democrat Rovian conspiracy. :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. You've never read a 'Clean Break'?

A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm

Following is a report prepared by The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies’ "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000." The main substantive ideas in this paper emerge from a discussion in which prominent opinion makers, including Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser participated. The report, entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," is the framework for a series of follow-up reports on strategy.

Israel has a large problem. Labor Zionism, which for 70 years has dominated the Zionist movement, has generated a stalled and shackled economy. Efforts to salvage Israel’s socialist institutions—which include pursuing supranational over national sovereignty and pursuing a peace process that embraces the slogan, "New Middle East"—undermine the legitimacy of the nation and lead Israel into strategic paralysis and the previous government’s "peace process." That peace process obscured the evidence of eroding national critical mass— including a palpable sense of national exhaustion—and forfeited strategic initiative. The loss of national critical mass was illustrated best by Israel’s efforts to draw in the United States to sell unpopular policies domestically, to agree to negotiate sovereignty over its capital, and to respond with resignation to a spate of terror so intense and tragic that it deterred Israelis from engaging in normal daily functions, such as commuting to work in buses.

Benjamin Netanyahu’s government comes in with a new set of ideas. While there are those who will counsel continuity, Israel has the opportunity to make a clean break; it can forge a peace process and strategy based on an entirely new intellectual foundation, one that restores strategic initiative and provides the nation the room to engage every possible energy on rebuilding Zionism, the starting point of which must be economic reform. To secure the nation’s streets and borders in the immediate future, Israel can:


http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

[arwalden]

29. Reynolds Wrap?

<< This crew has no intention of ever leaving office. >>

[truth2power]

53. If I might borrow one of Dear Leader's phrases

that's appropos, here: "Just wait."

I'll take a piece of tin-foil, please. Thanks. :tinfoilhat:

[MadHound]

34. Whether or not this is at Rove's direction

It plays right into the hands of the PNAC folks, and has a great potential to allow them to carry out the second stage of their plan, ie invasion and occupation of Iran and Syria. This is why Bush is refusing to step in and stop the slaughter. This is why Rice has no definitive date to try and go mediate a cease fire(not like I'm expecting her to succeed, or even try hard). This is why we see the ghastly spectre of not just Bushco, but their RW propaganda machine cheering Israel on as the slaughter of the innocents continue.

Bushco is hoping that Syria and/or Iran are finally provoked into taking up arms, and thus be able to swoop in and "come to the aid" of their ally Israel.

And yes, this whole issue neatly divides Democrats/liberals in order that once again Bushco can conquer. It also diverts the public's attention away from Iraq, where the war continues to slog on, with death and destruction being the only result.

No, this may or may not be the work of Rove, but Bushco couldn't have asked for a better ploy even if Rove had planned it all from day one.

[deaniac21]

38. Your knowledge of geopolitics is self evident!

[earth mom]

42. I agree-with everything....

And those who think that Bush Co had no part in this, might want to think again. Just who finances Israel? Hmm?

And Congress? They've checked out completely by voting for this crap. I had a dream the other night that all the members of Congress were inside the U.S. mint stealing ALL the money. It was a chaotic scene and all I could do was watch while feeing like our society, our country and our way of life is completely gone, over, stick a fork in it, done.

Get ready to start saying "King George"...

[Rosemary2205]

43. Do you really believe

Rove got Hezbollah to nab and murder IDF?

I can see them using it to their advantage but to say Rove is behind ALL of it?

[Lerkfish]

47. actually, I think they intentionally destabilized the region, the details

take care of themselves once you do that.

In other words, I agree that I don't think they directed Hezbollah or even Israel DIRECTLY, but they created the stability vacuum that permits this kind of chaos to erupt.

and I think that's intentional, very. the PNAC agenda requires sweeping hegemony of the region and that can't happen if you have robust and stable govt. in place, you have to tear down existing govts. to replace them with your own or vassals of your own.

[DoYouEverWonder]

93. I did not say Rove

was behind ALL of it. Of course not. He's more of a nuts and bolts guy who deals with implementing the US political side of the equation. The grand masters of this whole operation are Rummie and Cheney and the Neocons that they've aligned themselves with.

[Ian David]

45. Self-delete

[spanone]

48. According to the governing slime balls all bets are off for terrorism.

Whatever it takes. Kill Kill Kill. Kill Kids. Kill Elderly. Kill Women. Whatever it take. Kill.

[bloom]

50. "We are being 9-11'd..."

That's how I've been seeing it.

And I think any justification of bombing countries to smithereens - including bringing up the holocaust - is nonsense.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. The huge difference here is that we weren't attacked by Iraq

Israel didn't start this one. Hezbollah did.

I think their reaction has been too strong -- not because I give a damn about Hezbollah, I don't. But because I think their reaction is likely to cause further problems for Israel w/o succeeding in ridding the world of Hezbollah.

The deaths of innocent civilians -- on both sides -- is horrendous. There simply must be a better way. But Hezbollah is neither victim nor some sort of freedom fighters. They are terrorists. They are vile. They deserve no support from any quarter whatsoever.

[theHandpuppet]

55. No, we were attacked by Saudi nationals

Some 15 of the 19 9-11 hjackers were Saudis. Osama himself is a Saudi. Monies which are used by al-Qaeda are provided by or laundered by Saudis (and it is supected that at least some members of the Royal family may be funneling money to al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.)

So when do we invade SA? Should we bomb the shit out of SA, destroy their infrastructure, blockade their ports, and hold their government responsible for the presence of extremists in their country? Oh right -- Saudi Arabia has lots of oil, doesn't it, and huge investments in U.S. banks, properties and corporations.

How about Yemen? Yemenis affiliated with al-Qaeda have targeted U.S. interests in Yemen, including the October 2000 bombing of the navy destroyer U.S.S. Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden . When does the wholesale bombing begin?

Yes, we could go on and on, nation by nation. Reducing entire countries to rubble has worked so well in Afghanistan and Iraq, hasn't it.

IT DOESN"T FURKING MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!

[JerseygirlCT]

60. I don't disagree that there must be a better way

I don't think the current way is going to help provide a better situation for Israel, either.

And the Saudis? Creeps. You'll not find a big fan here of that regime.

But that's my point. Israel didn't look around, decide on easy pickins and attack Lebanon.

They were attacked, they responded. That's a difference scenario than our attack on Iraq.

[theHandpuppet]

67. You're still missing my point

But I get the feeling some folks never will.

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. Were the Israeli soldiers

who were captured, ah excuse me, kidnapped on Israeli soil or Lebanese soil?

[Fredda Weinberg]

58. On the Israeli side n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

59. I believe the area

is disputed territory that is claimed by Lebanon.

[Lurking Dem]

63. Disputed by whom?

They were kidnapped from behind the line. Hezbollah (not Lebanon) considers the whole of Israel disputed territory and refers to every Israeli town as a "settlement".

[DoYouEverWonder]

64. Well then I guess it depends

on a person's POV.

Since Israel was created in 1948, they had to take someone's land in order to exist.

[JerseygirlCT]

71. And if you're going to use those standards, then you could

spend an awful lot of time re-drawing maps all over the world. Figuring out Europe alone could take years.

This is the way things work. And the whole area would be better off if the rest of the middle east just accepted a simple fact: Israel exists and isn't going anywhere.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Israeli soil nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

62. And how many Palestinians

sitting in Israeli prisons have been kidnapped?

How about the 100's prisoners at Guantanamo? Oh that's right, the US and Israel don't do kidnappings?

[Fredda Weinberg]

66. Kidnapped means held for ransom, doesn't it?

Israel didn't announce terms for the prisoners' release - it's Hamas and Hezbollah that are taking hostages.

[DoYouEverWonder]

94. Then I guess you can't say

the IDF soldiers were kidnapped either. POW's yes. Kidnap victims? That's a bit of a stretch.

[leftchick]

69. you are right on DYEW

and the proof comes out of Gonzales' yap every time he defends bush's "inherent powers as a war prez". If anyone thinks they have ANY plan of letting a Democrat into the white house after all of this consolidation of power for the executive branch. Well, I have some lovely property in Texas to sell you.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. .

:tinfoilhat:

[DoYouEverWonder]

92. Sure beats

wearing blinders.

[Behind the Aegis]

100. what if you are wearing both?

[DoYouEverWonder]

101. I'd probably

end up with a migrane most of the time.

(Good to see you have you're sense of humor intact this morning.)

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. Riiiight. Hezbollah and KKKRove and the psycho are all in cahoots

TOGETHER. :rofl::rofl:

[Emit]

75. Question?

I wasn't here during the lead up to the Iraq invasion -- came here after the 2004 (s)election --

Were there pro-war discussions here? I mean in terms of DUers supporting the invasion of Iraq.

Thanks if anyone knows and can shed some light.

[DoYouEverWonder]

83. From what I remember

the only ones supporting the Invasion of Iraq were usually freepers.

[Posteritatis]

76. So, if we're not with you, we're against you? (n/t)

[stepnw1f]

78. dumb

[Posteritatis]

79. I am floored and destroyed by your crushing refutation. Well-played. (nt)

[stepnw1f]

81. Well... you didn't have to reply

but you did... so it did something to you.

[stepnw1f]

77. Playing into the Neo-con Agenda That's for Sure

Sad... so many liberals are just as hawkish about Israel as the Bush supporters are about the actions of the US in Iraq.

[DanCa]

80. What Rove wants is too divide us on the issue

Just in time for the November midterms. I wont dance too his tune, will you?

[DoYouEverWonder]

82. I try to step on their toes

as often as possible.

[DanCa]

89. Dance puppets dance

Nice Gepato, nice Gepato :D) :wink: :hug:

[MGD]

85. Conspiracy theories are intricate self-reinforcing neurotic constructions

created as a means of avoiding certain uncomfortable realities such as the reality that everything is completely out of fucking control and nobody has a handle on it. I don't think that this is Rove's doing. It's just the usual wonderful world of chaos that we live in.

[DoYouEverWonder]

91. The chaos is on purpose

and it is part of the PNAC plan. You should read what the Neocons like Ledeen and Perle write about. They're stated goal from the being has been to destabilize the Middle East.


“Stability is an unworthy American mission, and a misleading concept to boot. We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia; we want things to change. The real issue is not whether, but how to destabilize.” - Michael Ledeen, Wall Street Journal, 9/4/2002

[Clarkie1]

87. Congratulations, you win the myopia award! nt

[whosinpower]

88. This is not going to help bush in the long term

Just my take on the matter.

He is now known as a total and complete idiot with no diplomatic skills whatsoever.

His utter lack of leadership is abhorrently apparent. He wants the "shit" to stop but he cannot call Syria himself can he???? The supposed leader of the free world cannot pick up the phone and tell Syria to get Hizbollah to stop.......instead Bush would like to tell Kofi to do it. Think about it for a moment. Bush is powerless.

His lack of a diplomatic solution will be seen as a weakness - not a strength.

[Dark]

90. "No one, no country has the right to. . .bomb them to smithereens."

Except Hamas and Hezbollah, according to you.

[DoYouEverWonder]

95. Neither Hamas or Hezbolla

has the ability to bomb anyone to smithereens. Nor have I claimed anywhere in this thread that anyone has that right.

[Dark]

96. Uh, they've been bombing Israelis to smithereens for a while.

They just don't use high tech equipment to do it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

97. So as long as you use high tech equipment

it's okay?

[lostinacause]

98. You’re wrong! The conflict in the Middle East sends a message that

Bush is doing a bad job; that it is fact less stable despite the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Roadmap to Peace. Furthermore the instability will increase gas prices something that has been a throne in his side for some time. (It’s pitiful how much this is hurting his image given that he has little control over it and given the other things that he has had control over that has gone poorly.)