Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

If you lived in Haifa, would you be getting out of town?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:20 PM
Original message
If you lived in Haifa, would you be getting out of town?
Knowing that those Hezbollah rockets could land on your head at any time, why would you hang around? Wouldn't you be getting out of town with the same urgency as the 500,000 trying to escape Beirut? These people must have ice water running thru their veins? One might think there wasn't even a war going on...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. IF I had the ability, I would probably not stay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. there is no comparison between the sparse shelling on Haifa
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 01:55 PM by tocqueville
and the appalling damage caused on Beirut. Besides the 500 000 are not fleing Beirut, they are getting there because they are pushed from the south. And in Haifa it happens to be plenty of Arab-Israeli without shelters and warning sirens, like in Nazareth BTW.








Beirut




An Israeli man looks at a hole in the roof of a house at the scene of a rocket attack in the northern city of Haifa July 23, 2006. Israel unleashed more air strikes on Lebanon and Hizbollah fired rockets at Haifa on Sunday as a senior U.N. official demanded a halt to the violence to allow aid to reach desperate civilians. REUTERS/Yonathan Weitzman (ISRAEL)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Untrue.
Hafia has warning systems and bomb shelters throughout the city, including in the Israeli Arab sectors!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. How come they always complain about the lack of it on French TV ?
probably the fifth column...

that Arab-Israeli are second class citizens is not news
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. In Haifa?
I just spoke with someone in Haifa, the sirens can be heard city-wide. You have ONE minute before impact!

As for being second-class citizens, that is not uncommon throughout the world...look at France!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The majority of Arab Israeli
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 02:16 PM by tocqueville
live in the north and in unsheltered areas even if Haifa might be a bad example. But it's true for Nazareth. Just saw an interview with the mother of the two killed children and the mayor of Nazareth : no shelters, no warning sirens.

A lot of French immigrants from Arab countries are not treated in France the way they should be, yes. But prejudice doesn't mean no access to basic facilities, that's a very different thing. Besides it's not geographical either.


In Nazareth, Arab Israelis Now at Risk
Rockets Fall Near City Long Seen as Off-Limits

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, July 18, 2006; A12

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071701420_pf.html

NAZARETH, Israel, July 17 -- The rockets landed in darkness on either side of this sacred city, long considered out of range and off-limits for the radical armed groups that have bombarded Israel's Galilee region from south Lebanon.

Out of range because Nazareth lies across a hilltop more than 20 miles south of the Lebanese border, where Hezbollah gunmen set off a new war last week by capturing two Israeli soldiers and killing eight others. Off-limits because, like the people firing the rockets, most of the residents here are Arabs.

Amin Abu Taha, a dentist with two teenage children, worried as he took a midday break outside a coffeehouse along Paulus VI Avenue. "Israel is the most powerful state in the Middle East," he said, sweating in the summer heat. "But rockets do not discriminate. This is an old story that must be resolved."

The barrage around midnight Sunday caused no casualties and it remained unclear whether Hezbollah intended to hit Nazareth or the nearby Jewish town of Nazaret Ilit. But the explosions prompted feelings of fear, despair and a touch of pride here in Israel's largest Arab city.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Do have proof of your assertions?
"The majority of Arab Israeli live in the north and in unsheltered areas even if Haifa might be a bad example."

I know about Nazareth.

So bomb shelters are "basic facilities?' That statement should tell you something! Do you know the reason why there are no sirens or shelters in Nazareth? I don't. It seems you assume it is because there is a high Arab Israeli population.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. the WP good enough ?
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 04:26 PM by tocqueville
"The roughly 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel -- one-fifth of the population -- do not serve in the army, now engaged on the northern and southern borders. They have slim representation in parliament, and receive scant government support for the kind of bunkers and warning systems that have been well used in other northern Israeli cities since the fighting began."



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not ice water.
Those people have lived their lives with the constant threats and attacks. They are not willing to pull up stakes every time an enemy of Israel attacks! Also, there are bomb shelters throughout the city, including in many private residences. It is easy for you to pass judgment on something you know nothing about! Besides, quite a few have left, many have simply sent their children and eldery to more secure locations, and some, well just like Katrina, here in the States, they don't have anywhere to go nor the resources to go!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I agree.
I believe the ones that were able to get out, got out. And the ones that stayed (or weren't able to leave), went to bomb shelters.

Bomb Shelters = Superdome/Convention Center
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. I spent several days in Kiryat Shmona, and let me tell ya....
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 01:51 PM by KzooDem
Onw would have been too many. I was visiting relatives there when all of this started. They have been used to this stuff for years. They just trot themselves to the bomb shelters and stick out their chins. Me...I was sort of freaked. I'm not saying it doesn't affect them...it does. They just have a more steely resolve in the face of this sort of thing.

It's the same thing for my relatives living in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem when there's a terrorist bombing in a cafe or market or on the bus. If they let their fear overtake them, they'd never venture out of the house.

I was in Tel Aviv a few years ago when a bus was blown up by a Palestinian just down the street from my cousin's apartment. Inside of five hours, they had the site cleaned up, even TWO NEW TREES planted. Inside of eight hours, life on the street had returned to normal and one would have never known what had transpired, save for a few shattered windows that were waiting to be replaced. And those were replaced by the following morning.

Israelis did not take a patch of desert and ruins and turn it into a world-class country in four decades because they're a bunch of wimps! :-) So yes...as a sheltered American, HELL YES I'd flee. But it doesn't surprise me one bit that the Israelis are not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. yes. they would be used to it after all these years. me, i would
probably leave, but then again if i were used to it, maybe not. it's hard to pick up and leave your home. gotta give these people credit -- all they have endured over the years.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Palestine wasn't a patch of desert and ruins..
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 02:27 PM by Scurrilous
...when the Jewish settlers arrived. That's a racist myth.



Palestine.. the people and the land:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8B6EB4AA-E7C3-49AC-9F3E-A70603635511.htm#

Palestinian villages commemorated on Google maps

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274796,00.html

"A surfer who calls himself Tamin Derby, and who claims to reside in Jenin, has documented in recent months for Google Earth hundreds of
Palestinian villages that vanished from the face of the earth in 1948. Some were replaced by new Israeli communities and towns.

"During the 1948 war between the Israelis and Arabs, 800,000 Palestinians were expelled, or escaped from their villages in Palestine, where they had lived for thousands of years. since then they have turned into refugees and their villages have been partly or completely destroyed," he wrote."

Palestine--The Suppression of an Idea

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=118&aid=160&pg=1

<snip>

"When Zionism first emerged as an organized political movement in 1897 to solve the “Jewish problem” by “ingathering” the Jews of the world in a Jewish state in Palestine, it inevitably put itself on a collision course with an already existing society in Palestine. As Nehru once put it, the Zionist scheme neglected “one not unimportant fact...Palestine was not a wilderness or an empty, uninhabited place. It was already somebody else’s home.”1 This is indisputably the central fact about Palestinian-Israeli relations, and is indispensable to interpreting Palestinian attitudes toward Israel or Israeli behavior toward the Palestinian people.

To the Palestinians, the Zionists were European settlers who, through a process of invasion by immigration, dispossessed them of their country and turned them into a nation of refugees. On the other hand, “the fact of an overwhelming indigenous Arab majority confronted the Zionists with an imposing ethical problem.”2 It was primary witness to the fact that Zionist colonization of Palestine was of necessity an act of invasion. Menachem Begin once explained the consequences of this fact. When asked during a 1969 conference in the Israeli kibbutz of Ein Hahoresh about Israel’s refusal to recognize the existence of the Palestinians, Begin replied:

My friend, take care. When you recognize the concept of “Palestine,” you demolish your right to live in Ein Hahoresh. If this is Palestine and not the land of Israel, then you are conquerors and not tillers of the land. You are invaders. If this is Palestine, then it belongs to a people who lived here before you came.
Zionist success in the colonization of Palestine and the Judaization of the country hinged, among other things, on the propagation of the belief that no one would be victimized by the Zionist scheme. This, in turn, required that awareness of the Palestinian people be suppressed.

The Zionist movement disseminated several versions of the myth of Palestinian non-existence. The first was that Palestine was a country without people. From the beginning the Zionists adopted the slogan: “A land without people for a people without land.” There are indications that the Zionist movement intended that this slogan be accepted in its literal meaning. Even Max Nordau, the British Zionist leader, seemed to have been temporarily deceived by it. The famous Jewish philosopher Martin Buber related in his memoirs: “When Max Nordau, Herzl’s second in command, first received details on the existence of an Arab population in Palestine, he came shocked to Herzl exclaiming: ‘I never realized this--we are committing an injustice."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. My uncle settled Israel after he survived the Holocaust....
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 02:08 PM by KzooDem
I have had family there for decades and know the history well, so I think I know of what I speak. No, you're right...it wasn't LITERALLY a patch of desert and ruins. But it wasn't much more than that, either. It'not a racist myth. It's called geo-political HISTORY. Try picking up a history book and enlightening your mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. Probably not at this stage of my life. I would be like old
Harry Truman who refused to leave before Mt. St. Helens erupted. That's the way I feel about things these days. If there was a meltdown at our local nuke plant I wouldn't budge.

Why younger Israelis with families don't want to evacuate I don't know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. i don't like the term "ice water running in veins". my ex husband
used to say that about me and i'm not at all a cold person. i'm very easy going and kind. i'm sure you didn't mean it the way it came out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. He did too.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. are you talking about the poster or my ex-husband?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Not your x-husband!!!
I just really had to laugh, I wasn't talking about you!! Talk about the way things come out!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. i just laughed when i read your reply.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC