Is this the dirty little secret about our schools?

[hedgehog]

Actually, it's a two parter.

1. My observation is that schools in some Northern states New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut) tend to have higher standards so passing high school courses there are like passing junior college courses elsewhere.

2. Even in those states, the schools are not equipped to reach out to kids unless there are adults in the home willing and able to encourage learning. I'm not talking about force-feeding the kids, I'm talking about expecting kids to apply themselves and learn to read and do simple arithmetic, maybe enjoy learning a second language, etc. I see parents every day who passively discourage their kids because the parents view the school as the enemy. My kids are doing great, but too many others are dropping out. I'm glad my kids are getting a solid education, but we have to find a way to reach the other kids, too.


It seems to me that 90% of the current ho-haw feeds into a cash industry (test makers and tutors) designed to calm suburban parents while utterly failing to help the kids who aren't being served. Of course, as long as politicians can focus on relatively low cost standardized testing, they don't have to come up with the cash for smaller class sizes or anything else that might make a real difference! Also, as long as x% of the kids meet the standard in Texas or Florida, no one bothers to ask or notice that the standards in those states are well below the standards in other states!(That's based on the comments from kids I know who've been in both systems and relate that classes are several grade levels behind what was expected in New York)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. The current hoo haw is about enriching the test designers,

and has nothing to do with teaching children. When I taught in the 70s and 80s, you could see the start of this trend--salesmen would come by the district every so often with the "sure-fire" method of making sure all kids learned. It was based on concepts that weren't well thought out, and didn't take into account human nature. The one thing they all had in common was contempt for the classroom teacher; they painted him/her as incompetant know-nothings.

If a child comes from a home that doesn't value learning, they will have a tougher time than those children that come from homes where learning is valued. One interesting thing I found was that these values weren't necessarily tied to family income.

[Greyhound]

4. and don't forget the dismantling of any public education system.

We (little people) are to be relegated to corporate indoctrination camp, and further, we are to pay for it. :dunce:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. which is one reason I got out of teaching

by the early '90s, I was not allowed to assess the needs of my students and teach them in the way I felt they would learn. I was required to mainly teach to tests, and it disgusted me.

[Greyhound]

9. I have seven friends/acquaintances that are teachers in public

systems, and every one of them has told me exactly the same thing. "There ain't no education goin' on up in that motherfucker." - Bullworth

[Warpy]

5. Anybody who expects the public schools to educate their kids

beyond the basics of the three Rs is kidding himself. If you want your kids to be educated, you need to supply them with books that tell them about real subjects, especially history.

The Jebus people have even managed to screw up hard science courses like physics and chemistry by dumbing them down to the point they can shove their gods into them.

If you want your kids to be competitive when they enter higher education, you have to start at home and early.

[hedgehog]

11. I agree with you about family income

Coming from a poor family doesn't keep you from achieving. Failure to achieve though, may ensure that your family will be poor!

[SmokingJacket]

2. I think it's true about New York, anyway.

I went to public school here, and had an excellent high school education (EXCEPT for history). It's true there wasn't a lot of reaching out to the struggling kids, but the Regents track offered a lot for those who went after it. To this day I'm amazed at how much I read in 11th and 12th grade. They didn't even offer AP classes -- probably didn't need to.

When I later taught college freshmen from other states, I was startled to discover how lax the standards are. Many, many of my students never even read a book in English class -- they just watched movies. Really!

[HockeyMom]

10. ONLY Regents Diplomas in New York now

Whereas, years ago kids could get a local school diploma, or the tougher State Regents Diploma, as of last year(?) all students in New York State must pass the Regents with a State Diploma. Even the majority of Special Ed students must now also.

They have also increased the standards for this diploma. I think they now require all students to take 4 years of English, 4 years of Social Studies, 3 years of Math, 3 years of a Science, and 2 years of a Foreign Language, in addition to a "major".

New York State teachers now only have 3 years instead of 5 years to complete their Masters for Permanent Certification. Teacher Assistants must, also, have Certification and an Associates Degree.

Did I leave anything out?

[hedgehog]

12. I'm guessing the Regents' system is about 150 years old

It was a good system as far as it went for many years. Kids who passed had a valuable certificate. The problem was that it didn't address the problem of all the kids who dropped out figuratively or literally. Instead of fixing the system, the focus for the last five years has been on "fixing" the test (and you can read "fixing" any way you like!) I don't think a year has gone by recently that the grades for one test or another haven't been thrown out because teachers all over the state looked at the test and said it was bogus. There used to be a clear, concise curriculum with required labs and a standard format on the test. People taught to the test, but you couldn't [ass the test unless you knew the subject. Now teachers are left to guess year to year what part of the curriculum is going to be emphasized. Guess what? They still haven't addressed the problem of third graders who can't read and fall further behind every year!

[acmejack]

3. Broad brush alert!

You simply cannot make such a generalization. There are schools in Texas that are the equal to any in New York and I am sure the are schools in the inner city that are as low performing as any in Texas. I am confident I can back up these claims if challenged. Our particular school district, I am fortunate to live a wealthy district, has an outstanding school system and produces merit scholars and AP students at a prodigious rate. It is amazing how a sufficient budget empowers education!

edit: I agree that parental involvement is the key to a successful educational experience, that the Northern states overall have a better educational system, which is directly tied to their investment into their school systems-note the pittances Southern States invest into their children.

The testing system is a fraud, it has turned the school system into a training model from an educational system. No longer do we teach our kids how to learn we teach them how to take a specific test. It is moronic as befits a scheme concocted by this bunch od idiots!

[hedgehog]

13. I was referring to overall impressions.

I have no doubt that in districts composed of middle-class, upwardly focused parents the schools are more rigorous. The problem is that the focus on testing is plastering over the problem that a lot of kids still aren't learning and we either don't know why or we know why and won't discuss it because it will raise taxes if we address the problem.

By the way - your comment about producing merit scholars and AP students reminds me of a constant charge addressed to Catholic schools that any school can produce good students provided you cherry pick for students from supportive families.

[HockeyMom]

15. I went to Catholic School

Ok, decades ago, but the format is still the same (daughters friends went) for entrance. As far as HS, it is based on your GPA and your score from the CO-OPS (similar to SAT test). Actually, the process is very similar in applying to a college. Different schools have different minimum standards, but I know the largest here requires a minimum of B+ GPA from elementary school. I don't know the CO-OP requirements. My daughter applied to a private prep school and the process was very similar and far more stringent. Yes, they both "pick and choose". Neither one is inexpensive, either.

[Sparkly]

6. I think we could look at it in three parts: federal, state, and local.

There are federal guidelines, standards, mandates, testing, and funding.

There are also state and local standards, testing, funding...

So some things overarch a large geographical area of schools, and apply rigid structures and unfair comparisons between schools whose needs and assets vary tremendously.

There's wide variation between schools, and their student populations, according to local -- even at the district level -- differences in funding, socio-economic conditions, industries, etc... And yes, within schools there's wide variation among students themselves, their home lives, support or lack thereof, etc...

I also think that one thing holds true in voting patterns as well as schools/students: there's often a bigger difference between rural/urban/suburban than between north/south.

[hedgehog]

14. Yet my local school district which is small city/rural and

serves an area where almost half the people are on public assistance turns out AP students who score high on their SATs and get into good schools. It's a great district, but we need to do better because I swear a lot of kids have figuratively dropped out by third grade. If it was raining soup, these kids would show up with a fork. We've got to figure out how to teach them and that doesn't mean coming up with a magic test that everyone can pass so the district looks good.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. Absolutely nothing

trumps strong, strong parental involvement in academic success.

In 34 years I can't remember an excellent student with apathetic parents.