Seymour Hersh: 'US, Israel planned ME war'! Shocking!

[leftchick]

well not really, it confirms what many of us suspected. It was a "Demo for Iran"!

WATCHING LEBANON
Washington’s interests in Israel’s war.
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

<snip>

The Middle East expert said that the Administration had several reasons for supporting the Israeli bombing campaign. Within the State Department, it was seen as a way to strengthen the Lebanese government so that it could assert its authority over the south of the country, much of which is controlled by Hezbollah. He went on, “The White House was more focussed on stripping Hezbollah of its missiles, because, if there was to be a military option against Iran’s nuclear facilities, it had to get rid of the weapons that Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation at Israel. Bush wanted both. Bush was going after Iran, as part of the Axis of Evil, and its nuclear sites, and he was interested in going after Hezbollah as part of his interest in democratization, with Lebanon as one of the crown jewels of Middle East democracy.”

<snip>

The United States and Israel have shared intelligence and enjoyed close military coöperation for decades, but early this spring, according to a former senior intelligence official, high-level planners from the U.S. Air Force—under pressure from the White House to develop a war plan for a decisive strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities—began consulting with their counterparts in the Israeli Air Force.

“The big question for our Air Force was how to hit a series of hard targets in Iran successfully,” the former senior intelligence official said. “Who is the closest ally of the U.S. Air Force in its planning? It’s not Congo—it’s Israel. Everybody knows that Iranian engineers have been advising Hezbollah on tunnels and underground gun emplacements. And so the Air Force went to the Israelis with some new tactics and said to them, ‘Let’s concentrate on the bombing and share what we have on Iran and what you have on Lebanon.’ ” The discussions reached the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, he said.

“The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits,” a U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel said. “Why oppose it? We’ll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran.”

'US, Israel planned ME war'
13/08/2006 11:06 - (SA)

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Middle_East/0,,2-10-2075_1981865,00.html

New York - The US government was closely involved in the planning of Israel's military operations against Islamic militant group Hezbollah even before the July 12 kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue.

The kidnapping triggered a month-long Israeli operation in South Lebanon that is expected to come to an end on Monday.

But Pulitzer Prize-winning US journalist Seymour Hersh writes that President George W Bush and vice president Dick Cheney were convinced that a successful Israeli bombing campaign against Hezbollah could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential US pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations.

Citing an unnamed Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the Israeli and US governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah - and shared it with Bush administration officials - well before the July 12 kidnappings.

[chimpymustgo]

1. Confirming what MANY have suspected.

Hersh's take sounds quite plausible too. Truly, what we have witnessed with the massacre and destruction in Lebanon JUST MADE NO SENSE. This does.

[leftchick]

2. yes indeed

it clears many things up. Including who the boss man is...

<snip>

Earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, the U.S. government consultant said, several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, “to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear.” The consultant added, “Israel began with Cheney. It wanted to be sure that it had his support and the support of his office and the Middle East desk of the National Security Council.” After that, “persuading Bush was never a problem, and Condi Rice was on board,” the consultant said.

[lala_rawraw]

43. Yep... all meshes... we are in deep shite, as I have said

over and over... thank god for Sy, Rozen, and others.

[leftchick]

49. and thank god for you too lala!

:yourock:

[Zhade]

53. ...except for when Raw Story runs anti-atheist hate screeds.

We haven't forgotten.

</threadjack>

But yes, thank goodness for people like Hersch. I'm not familiar with Rozen?

[lala_rawraw]

78. right, and again you forget that i have no control over the

opinion side at all... but by all means, do continue "remembering."

[lala_rawraw]

79. blush:D

[annabanana]

3. ". . . . .a demo for Iran.”

They are insane. They get all their info in powerpoint sales pitches...with little generic graphics.

[theHandpuppet]

4. This fits with an article I previously posted on another forum

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH10Ak05.html

Clearing the path for US war on Iran
By Gareth Porter

WASHINGTON - Israel has argued that the war against Hezbollah's rocket arsenal was a defensive response to the Shi'ite organization's threat to Israeli security, but the evidence points to a much more ambitious objective - the weakening of Iran's deterrent to an attack on its nuclear sites.

In planning for the destruction of most of Hezbollah's arsenal and prevention of any resupply from Iran, Israel appears to have hoped to eliminate a major reason the US administration had shelved the military option for dealing with Iran's nuclear program - the fear that Israel would suffer massive casualties from Hezbollah's rockets in retaliation for an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities.

One leading expert on Israeli national-defense policy issues believes the aim of the Israeli campaign against Hezbollah was to change the US administration's mind about attacking Iran. Edward Luttwak, senior adviser to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, says administration officials have privately dismissed the option of air strikes against Iranian nuclear facilities in the past, citing estimates that a Hezbollah rocket attack in retaliation would kill thousands of people in northern Israel....

MORE

[leveymg]

23. "Hezbollah rocket attack would kill thousands of Israelis"?!?!?

Since the war started 7/12, Hezballhah rockets have killed about 100 Israeli civilians. This is absurd on its face and has, in fact, proven to be so.

Indeed, this line of argument appears to have been created after the fact to maintain the propaganda offensive that threatens military action against Iran. No sane General, American or Israeli, still actually believes that an attack on Iran would be anything other than the start of a military debacle and a political disaster. If anything, the Lebanese incursion proved just how suicidal the game plan of the neocons really is.

[theHandpuppet]

30. Yes, you have to wonder who was the source for their citations

Probably some right wing PNACer think tank, no doubt.

[vickitulsa]

35. Great point. And I might add that being suicidal, self-destructive

in a way that endangers the whole planet, is a clear trend among neocons by now.

A microcosm of that can be seen in the CIC's own personal "accidents" with resulting scabs and scars. When an individual or an organization does not seem to be heeding its own damaging feedback, no observant or intelligent persons should be following them!

Only reason to continue doing so must be due to ulterior motives, such as a grand plan a la PNAC. How blatant does it have to be for low-level wingnuts to get the drift?

What keeps amazing me is that those in charge seem to be truly oblivious to the recklessness they encourage -- putting even their own sorry asses in serious danger of extinction. Do they want to "win it all" for themselves or else blow it all up so no one else can have it?....

That's just downright childish, and imprudent to the nth degree.

[leftchick]

41. not true

the vast majority of deaths have been IDF soldiers in combat. The rockets have killed perhaps a couple of dozen civilians. That fact is never clarified in the media.

[theHandpuppet]

61. Facts have nothing to do with any of this

(excerpt) "....says administration officials have privately dismissed the option of air strikes against Iranian nuclear facilities in the past, citing estimates that a Hezbollah rocket attack in retaliation would kill thousands of people in northern Israel...."

They were obviously fed the information they wanted to hear, leftchick. You'll note that the sources of these estimates is never given.

I still fear this misadminstration will have its war with Iran even though they were not able to pull Syria or Iran into the bait of the attack on Lebanon. They will find another way, mark my words, and they will find it before the November elections. God help us all.

[leftchick]

63. I know

I want to move my family the hell out of here now. :(

[Phrogman]

72. That was a very good post !

On that other forum

[Nikki Stone 1]

76. HP, I read the article you posted on Friday--so I am not suprised

by Hersh's revelations. Great post, btw.

[gordianot]

5. Is war with lran off the table?

As a practice war this has not worked out as planned.

[tbyg52]

33. Doubt it

Since when has the cabal changed its plans just because they were obviously goofy?

[leveymg]

6. If Lebanon was the trial run for Iran, the lesson learned was: expect

to fail in meeting your military-political objectives. Expect heavy casualties, and the world to turn against you.

[Maccagirl]

9. Yes

Is this the real reason for the Admin's flip-flop on the cease-fire resolution? Cut and run eh?

[leftchick]

12. also expect

The US to learn no lessons from it. On To Iran!

:(

[cool user name]

37. Yes but one thing ...

The world is already against us so we won't have to worry about that.

The cabal is free to act in whatever manner they see fit until we hold them to account ... and so far, we haven't been able to make anything stick.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. What I'll believe is that the right-wing of both factions have taken over.

On the US side, it's the marriage between the petroleum companies and the pro-Israeli lobby groups, (who once courted the Democratic Party (think Lieberman)), and on the Israeli side, it's the hawks who always believed that you kill ten of theirs for every one of yours. Of course, it was easier to have respect for Mossad and Israel when they actually showed they had the intelligence to target specific hostiles, instead of killing innocent civilians, because now they're going to have governments and the people they govern going in different directions.

Now, they're all just sloppy. I know we can end this conflict on the American side by doing just one thing: Nationalize oil.

[leveymg]

24. Just arrest a few oil company executives. That'll bring 'em into line.

Harry Truman did it in a couple cases. Legislation is still on the books to do the same, again.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. That's what I'm talking about.

[vickitulsa]

36. Can't believe I forgot about that.

Also strikes me as notable that a month-long war for Israel is going on far too long, while a 41-month-long war for the U.S. in Iraq is still "making good progress."

[AntiFascist]

58. No longer a left-wing bloggers' conspiracy theory....

the PNAC agenda for the entire Middle East is now becomming clear.

I've just watched Syriana, which is drawn from ex-CIA Robert Baer's non-fictional book "See No Evil." This makes it pretty clear as to what lengths oil executives and US government will collude in order to secure oil in the ME.

[bvar22]

8. As a "Practice War", this was a miserable failure!

:dem:

[chimpymustgo]

10. "Rummy and Cheney will call it a success!" On to Iran!!!

-snip-

"There is no way that (defence secretary Donald) Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this," the report quotes the former official as saying. "When the smoke clears, they'll say it was a success, and they'll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran."

-snip-

[leftchick]

11. that is what scares me

and the amerikan sheeple will fall for it again.

:scared:

[lisainmilo]

50. me too!

Bush tactics : To create fear and chaos and division in the American public. On the local channels here on Sunday mornings , there are many religious programs, all were preaching to the tune islamic terrorism. I am a Christian....but this BS drives me nuts.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. here's an interesting article from the Guardian - very related subject

link:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1839281,00.html

"Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong

The assault on Lebanon was premeditated - the soldiers' capture simply provided the excuse. It was also unnecessary

George Monbiot
Tuesday August 8, 2006
The Guardian

snip:" The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns."

snip:"A "senior Israeli official" told the Washington Post that the raid by Hizbullah provided Israel with a "unique moment" for wiping out the organisation. The New Statesman's editor, John Kampfner, says he was told by more than one official source that the US government knew in advance of Israel's intention to take military action in Lebanon. The Bush administration told the British government.

Israel's assault, then, was premeditated: it was simply waiting for an appropriate excuse. It was also unnecessary. It is true that Hizbullah had been building up munitions close to the border, as its current rocket attacks show. But so had Israel. Just as Israel could assert that it was seeking to deter incursions by Hizbullah, Hizbullah could claim - also with justification - that it was trying to deter incursions by Israel. The Lebanese army is certainly incapable of doing so. Yes, Hizbullah should have been pulled back from the Israeli border by the Lebanese government and disarmed. Yes, the raid and the rocket attack on July 12 were unjustified, stupid and provocative, like just about everything that has taken place around the border for the past six years. But the suggestion that Hizbullah could launch an invasion of Israel or that it constitutes an existential threat to the state is preposterous. Since the occupation ended, all its acts of war have been minor ones, and nearly all of them reactive.

So it is not hard to answer the question of what we would have done. First, stop recruiting enemies, by withdrawing from the occupied territories in Palestine and Syria. Second, stop provoking the armed groups in Lebanon with violations of the blue line - in particular the persistent flights across the border. Third, release the prisoners of war who remain unlawfully incarcerated in Israel. Fourth, continue to defend the border, while maintaining the diplomatic pressure on Lebanon to disarm Hizbullah (as anyone can see, this would be much more feasible if the occupations were to end). Here then is my challenge to the supporters of the Israeli government: do you dare to contend that this programme would have caused more death and destruction than the current adventure has done?"

link to full article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1839281,00.html

[leftchick]

14. thank you

I actually did read that. I believe it showed up in a the LA Times as well. It is spot-on!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. K&R for Seymore! And thanks for posting this, Leftchick!

[leftchick]

18. my

pleasure.

:)

[Eurobabe]

16. Thanks, sent to those who need to know...

[malaise]

17. No shock here n/t

[nolabels]

31. The only shock I have is learning how long the tongues are.........

of the U.S. and Israeli officials. The reason I say that is obviously they have them planted so far up each others rear end that the free tonsil massages is now just an extra benefit

[teryang]

19. Amazingly insightful article

Rumsfeld is stuck with a ground game in Iraq and apparently no longer sold on "shock and awe" having being seriously burned after the Iraqi invasion. He is on the threshold of a military diaster and knows it.

"Strategic bombing" is a corporate profiteers' version of warfare. The fact that it doesn't work doesn't matter because it lowers inventories and increases defense contracts with a minimum return on body bags. The civilian infrastructure of the hapless victims picks up all the costs. What Air Force chief of staff is going to admit the limited utility of air to ground strikes?

The reason bombing worked on Serbia is because it is a modern European state. Europeans have no desire to live on contaminated water with no refrigeration, air conditioning or fresh food.

On the other hand, a guerilla force trains to operate in this environment.

The Israelis went to Cheney first, who is an amateur with delusions of grandeur when it comes to warfare.

This is just the opening gambit, Hizbollah is armed with ineffective offensive capability against Israel. Not only was the energy infrastructure in the Persian Gulf not attacked, no refineries in Israel were attacked, although Israel has not hesitated to attack energy infrastructure on its target lists. One can only conclude that Iran is acting with restraint and satisfied with the conflict results thus far. The demographics really do not favor Israel, the US, or Great Britain.

As pointed out in the article, the concern is not what could happen to Israel as a consequence of ill considered bombing attacks on Iran, it is what can happen to the US position in Iraq and what could happen to the world oil supply.

[Supersedeas]

86. insightful-but doesn't rate an interview on any Political Talkshows, odd?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[papau]

21. Seymour Hersh and George Monbiot are great writers, and that the

Seymour Hersh and George Monbiot are great writers, and that the Lebanon assault was planned is of course true -but every country plans every possible future action.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Middle_East/0,,2-10-2075_1981865,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1839281,00.html

George asserts Israel was "simply waiting for an appropriate excuse." - I disagree.

George asserts "It was also unnecessary." - I disagree.

George notes that Israel can assert that the attack was to "deter incursions by Hizbullah", but then equates Israeli overflights of an area not policed by the Lebanese government as incursions that poor Hizbullah "could claim - also with justification - that it was trying to deter" - and that is bullshit - IMHO. He asserts that Hizbullah acts of war since the occupation ended 6 years ago "have been minor ones, and nearly all of them reactive" is more bullshit -IMO.

THEN HE ASSERTS THAT ATTACKS AIMED AT ELIMINATING ISRAEL CAN BE NEGOTIATED AWAY - Amazing.

He has a solution that depends on only Israel it seems - unilateral withdrawel from undefined occupied territories in Palestine and Syria so as to "stop recruiting enemies", stop overflights since that only provokes those defenders of their nation like the terrorists, release the prisoners of war because the terrorists say they are "unlawfully incarcerated" And indeed this would cause less "death and destruction than the current adventure has done" over the same time period - and who cares about the effect on Israel's ability to exist as a Jewish State - they have no right to exist as a Jewish State, while not said by Monbiot, seems to be the premise for his list of actions.

Perhaps folks could try to imagine that it was the US looking at an armed gang of 10,000 trained fighters, with heavy weapons dropping rockets into the US because California should be returned to Mexico, who were not part of the government that you could negotiate with and not controlled or policed by that government - would Americans demand that they be attacked?

[scarletwoman]

27. Monbiot asserts nothing of the kind!

You wrote: THEN HE ASSERTS THAT ATTACKS AIMED AT ELIMINATING ISRAEL CAN BE NEGOTIATED AWAY

I notice you didn't include a quote from Monbiot's article to support your point, like you did in the paragraph above. That's because nothing he wrote supports your premise that Hizbullah actions are "aimed at eliminating Israel" -- a statement that is absurd on its face. Israel is not going to be "eliminated" as state by katushya rockets, any more than Israel's bombing the shit out of Lebanon is going to "eliminate" the state of Lebanon.

Here's what Monbiot actually had to say:

But the suggestion that Hizbullah could launch an invasion of Israel or that it constitutes an existential threat to the state is preposterous.

Reality-based arguments are much more effective than hyperbole.

sw

[Swamp Rat]

44. POW!

You nailed it scarletwoman!

[papau]

59. That statement is on its face preposterous as an excuse to ignore rockets

falling on your citizens.

What hyperbole? - perhaps you do not take any action when the fellow next door says he is going to kill you just because he is 3 foot tall and only has access to a lot of money and weapons - he really can't today do much more than break a window - which he does about every other day.

[scarletwoman]

66. Yes, hyperbole. For 6 years, little potshots were exchanged over the

border on BOTH sides. I'm pretty sure that in all I've been reading about the background of this whole situation I've seen stated that no Israeli civilians had been killed by Hizbullah rocket fire during the 6 years between the end of the Israeli occupation of Lebanon and the start of Israel's bombing campaign.

Israel's bombs brought the rockets down on its citizens. All the death and destruction on both sides has been utterly unnecessary, brought on by the same irresponsible, irrational militaristic amorality and hubris that infects the neocons here.

I will never excuse Israel's military actions any more than I will ever excuse bushco's. It's the same evil crap.

Britain didn't go and bomb every bridge and road in Ireland when the IRA was setting off bombs in London. They fought back, of course, but they didn't engage in massive-scale collective punishment of half the population of Ireland.

And like the IRA and Sein Fein, Hizbullah has been integrating into Lebanon's political system. Instead of giving the infant "Cedar Revolution" a chance to take root and produce a strong democratic government which would in turn lead to the degree of internal stability necessary to de-radicalize Hizbullah, Israel has profoundly DE-stabilized the country. If you are seeking long-term security, wouldn't you prefer to see a stable, prosperous country on your border? How has Israel's security been enhanced by its actions?

So I don't want to hear about poor Israel shivering in fear about the "terrorists" under his bed. When you make your bed on the crushed bodies of innocent civilians, you can expect nightmares.

sw

[WiseButAngrySara]

88. Beautifully argued and poetically written, scarletwoman!

"So I don't want to hear about poor Israel shivering in fear about the "terrorists" under his bed. When you make your bed on the crushed bodies of innocent civilians, you can expect nightmares."

[scarletwoman]

93. Thank you for your kind words.

I didn't think anyone would see my post, I really appreciate getting a response -- and such a generous one at that!

sw

[leveymg]

84. So, by your logic, you'd drop a 2,000 pound bomb on his house

because he broke your window. People who resort to that sort of overreaction tend to blow their own houses down.

Nobody but the Israeli Right-wing, (along with BushCo and possibly the oil companies) is an existential threat to Israel right now. You'd better pay attention, and respond rationally, rather than flailing away at the 3-foot menace next door.

[ananda]

22. It's untruth, injustice, and the PNAC way!

... not only not surprising but already in evidence for at least a year.

Very shocking ... yes.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Totally Committed]

26. Oh my gawd....

Just when I thought nothing could disgust and appall me any more than I already was. I am sickened.

TC

[Jacobin]

28. This has got Cheney's grimey fingerprints all over it

Start this war, try to entice Syria/Iran into it and then, voila, an excuse to widen the PNAC wars

[leftchick]

60. it does indeed

has to get the Iran war on before bush leaves office.....

<snip>

Earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, the U.S. government consultant said, several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, “to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear.” The consultant added, “Israel began with Cheney. It wanted to be sure that it had his support and the support of his office and the Middle East desk of the National Security Council.” After that, “persuading Bush was never a problem, and Condi Rice was on board,” the consultant said.


<snip>

Cheney’s office supported the Israeli plan, as did Elliott Abrams, a deputy national-security adviser, according to several former and current officials. (A spokesman for the N.S.C. denied that Abrams had done so.) They believed that Israel should move quickly in its air war against Hezbollah. A former intelligence officer said, “We told Israel, ‘Look, if you guys have to go, we’re behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later—the longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office.’ ”

Cheney’s point, the former senior intelligence official said, was “What if the Israelis execute their part of this first, and it’s really successful? It’d be great. We can learn what to do in Iran by watching what the Israelis do in Lebanon.”

[Mountainman]

32. OK, where are those who said a country has a right to start a war?

This kind of makes all the arguments on the side of Israel look a little foolish to me. And very similar to the self serving pro Iraq war arguments.

[KoKo]

34. Thanks! It's a really long article but worth the read...explains alot...

:hi:

[evox]

38. Hezbollah knew that all along

July 26, 2006: Nasrallah says military offensive part of US-Israel plan for new Middle East

Hizbullah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah has said Israel's two-week-long military offensive against Lebanon was linked to a U.S.-Israeli plan for "a new Middle East."

He added that Israel was ready for the current attacks on Lebanon 10 months ago and was only waiting for a pretext.

(AP)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281435,00.html

[cool user name]

39. K&R ...

[evox]

40. k&r as well...

[oasis]

42. Hersh Interview by Wolfie on CNN. Coming up 12:53 est.

[leftchick]

45. holy shit! did you all catch SY on Late Edition?

He was fantastic! wolf kept quetioning the reliability of Sy's sources. Sy put him in his place and suggested a congressional inquiry into the fact the bush makes an awful lot of major foreign policy decisions without consulting congress.

[Jazzgirl]

46. Leftchick, Sy was off the hook!

He smacked Wolf so many times that his little head is still spinning. Wolf really went after his sources saying the wh says they're "former" intel and government insiders, not current sources. Sy smacked that down and talked about his editors had even interviewed many of his sources and they would never let anything questionable go to print. Poor Wolfie.....looking all sad.... }(

[leftchick]

47. he did look small and pathetic didn't he

:rofl:

[countryjake]

68. Damn, wish I'd seen that!

[leftchick]

73. Sy Hersh CNN transcript here cj...

<snip>

SEYMOUR HERSH, "NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: Well, one thing there's no question about, that this was known what Israel was going to do, it's attack on Hezbollah, the basically using air, primarily, was known to this White House. And I will tell you also to the State Department. They both had different reasons, the State Department and White House, for wanting Israel to do it, encouraging them to do it, supporting them.

Our Air Force worked very closely with the Israeli air force for months before this, not necessarily with a deadline knowing when it would happen. It was always going to be whenever there was an incident they would take advantage of an incident. The word I used was fortunate timing. When the Hezbollah grabbed some of the Israeli soldiers in early July, that was then a pretext -- I think that's the only word -- for a major offensive that had been in the works a long time.

The State Department always viewed what Israel was going to do, Condi Rice and her colleagues, as a way to stabilize -- going after Hezbollah would stabilize the Lebanese government and give them a chance under 1559 to take control. The White House, I write in this article, talking about specifically about Cheney's office, sort of center for the neocons, their view was different. Israel's attack on Hezbollah was going to be sort of a model, prototype, that is, a lot of air against a dug-in underground facility. Everything in southern Lebanon that Hezbollah had was underground.

For them it was going to be a test run for the bombing and the attack they really want to do, probably next year if they can. I'm not saying they've decided, but they want to go after Iran, and Iran, of course, the Persians have been dug in since, what, the 11th century so we know it's a tough call.

BLITZER: Because they're saying that these Sy Hersh conspiratorial theories so far-fetched they're rejecting them out of hand, especially this notion that what the Israelis have done now in Lebanon against Hezbollah is a prelude, a test run, if you will, for what the U.S. hopes to do against Iranian targets in Iran. And I want you to explain the nature of your sources, if you can -- I know you have confidential sources -- how good these sources are that are making this spectacular accusation.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/13/le.01.html

I owed you! :hi:

[orleans]

81. thanks for the transcript link. n/t

[countryjake]

82. thanky!

[teryang]

89. The Israeli bombing of Lebanon will be very destabilizing

The notion that it was helpful to the Lebanese government is absurd.

The rocket attacks on Israel were tactically ineffective and unimpressive. It was the defensive effort by Hizbollah that suprised observers.

[leftchick]

91. Agreed

perhaps that was the point after all? The neocons are truly insane!

It is great to see again Teryang! I have missed you. :)

[The2ndWheel]

52. What is Blitzer supposed to do?

Put him in his place? What does that even mean? He gave Hersh a chance to defend his sources from accusations by the White House. If it was someone else, say Ann Coulter, and the interviewer didn't question her sources, it would be, "why didn't so-and-so question her sources!!!!" Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's Ann Coulter, but still. If the sources are good, who cares if someone questions them. It's not like Blitzer didn't let him get the point of his story across.

[oasis]

90. Wolf hinted that Sy was a conspiracy theorist. It caused Sy to spend so

much time establishing his credentials that he was cut off. Wolf is a shill for the White House.

Keep an eye on the guy.

[leftchick]

95. yes

I thought that was pretty obvious by now. :shrug:

[Grateful for Hope]

48. Excellent article

He also did a good job just now on the Situation Room.

[Zhade]

51. So we who criticized Israel were right all along - this WAS planned.

Damn. Sometimes I hate being right.

[earth mom]

54. Impeachment proceedings would stop this sh*t cold.

But Congress does nothing! Do they really want war with Iran?! :wtf:

[LiberalUprising]

55. It's all about the money

“Strategic bombing has been a failed military concept for ninety years, and yet air forces all over the world keep on doing it,” John Arquilla, a defense analyst at the Naval Postgraduate School, told me. Arquilla has been campaigning for more than a decade, with growing success, to change the way America fights terrorism. “The warfare of today is not mass on mass,” he said. “You have to hunt like a network to defeat a network. Israel focussed on bombing against Hezbollah, and, when that did not work, it became more aggressive on the ground.

[kentuck]

56. And now, the Israelis are talking of getting rid of Olmert...

But nobody can get rid of Bush and Cheney?

[Raydawg1234]

57. But, The American people, and the International community, would never

support a war with Iran

[countryjake]

62. Thanks...very enlightening topic with lots of educational links...

this "second stage" of our push to "reshape" the Middle East, by weakening resistance forces and bringing Lebanon to its knees, should be seen for exactly what it is.

[leftchick]

64. it is seen for what it is cj

by the whole world except Israel and the US.

[McCamy Taylor]

65. Go Hersch! Course, we all knew this no war to liberate 2 kidnapped men.

Here is the toon I did for Grand Theft Election Ohio about this pretend spontaneous war:

http://www.grandtheftelectionohio.com/060716.htm


I believe that I am correct about why the war was timed for when it was.

[scarletwoman]

67. Re: "Practice war" - there's 1 aspect of this I haven't seen mentioned yet

One thing this "practice war" did was give U.S./Israel a better picture of Hizbullah's force capability.

If worry about Hizbullah rockets killing "thousands" of Israelis was holding them back on their Iran air strike plans, then they've probably now crossed that particular impediment off their list.

Now I'm starting to wonder if getting the new UN SC resolution wasn't the real goal all along. Start a massive military operation that kills lots of civilians and does lots of damage; knowing full well that everyone will eventually go running to the Security Council to try to get you to stop. Also knowing full well that Bolton and the bushies will make sure you'll get everything you want put into the *new* resolution -- and knowing that you will ignore what you don't like (like always) but will use the parts that you DO like to justify every else that you do.

So now, thanks to the *new* resolution, the moment you see (or suspect, or fake) a possible arms shipment to Hizbullah from, say, Iran -- TA DAH! The attack on Iran is a go! And it's all legal, too. It's a "defensive" action, and your faithful ally the U.S. will have no choice but to show up and help.

sw

[leftchick]

74. you are scaring me sw

that makes perfect sense in the neocon world. :(

[scarletwoman]

77. I can't stand seeing so much of the world at the mercy of these bastards.

I feel like we're all caught in a whirlpool, and we're being spun around faster and faster as we get closer to the drain... :-(

sw

[leveymg]

85. You're thinking like an NSC staff member.

;)

[scarletwoman]

94. Thank you. I try to put myself in the mind of the enemy -- the better to

find an effective counter-offensive.

sw

[savemefromdumbya]

69. Cheney met Netanyu etc in Colorado to plan out Israel's role in Lebanon

[PATRICK]

70. We posted this and more

as part seeing this supposed "incident" war as a natural extension of current policy. Back then I proposed that the empowering of Iran by NOT waging a war against them OR waging a war all posed the same risk from Iranian surrogates on Israel's borders. The timing of course would be either to prepare for the Bush decision or push the Bush decision. Either way it could signify hardcore commitment to deal the Shiite opposition, now ascendant thanks to bush's very belligerence. They will not wait for an iranian spark to trigger violence along their borders. This is to clear that away pre-emptively. As such it also works as a test etc. The reasons multiply why it is not even an option. They are forced by the policy by the process, by everything to wade through the blood- even if things tell them failure and disaster menace every step and result.- soul and purpose lost either least either way.

It is all a gluey complex, a wartrap with its own momentum whether it succeeds or fails, is run competently or reactively to setbacks. When men of greed and militarists combine with national goals based on fear or imperialism you are in for catastrophic re-enactment of old lessons. WWI comes to mind. The simple plan left in the dust, the impetus into the abyss, the unstoppable feeding of the frenzy machine, the inability of the peoples on any side to wake up and stop the jerks feverishly hitting the sparking controllers of their intractable video game. The bloodletting until Armistice and burnout leaving nothing but tragedy and waste as a legacy- and future wars.

We are also right about this being the juggernaut of a larger war, larger catastrophe, probably one that will bog down and fail on its own terms as well. Israel thus is in the process of destroying itself on many levels. The US as well. In their paroxysms God knows what they will do to the ME in their obstinacy. Nukes are probably very much still on the horizon. Failure to a great extent makes them even more inevitable. Frustration breeds greater war crimes. You don't even need an apocalyptic Anti-President to bring this about, just a catastrophic failure such as now squats upon the tomb of American democracy.

[scarletwoman]

75. Wow, Patrick! That's one hell of a post! Outstanding -- but way grim.

It's unbearable - watching the catastrophe unfolding, our whole world and all its peoples held hostage to madmen and their powerlust.

sw

[countryjake]

71. CBS had him on this evening...

Report: The U.S. Pushed Israeli Plan
New Yorker's Hersh Reports U.S. Encouraged Israel's Strikes As Prelude To Iran
Aug. 13, 2006
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/13/eveningnews/main1890406.shtml#ccmm

At the end of the report, Joie Chen said that the White House prepared an unusually long and detailed denial, for a Sunday afternoon.

There should be a video up by now, too.

[PATRICK]

87. Even protesting too much

Transparent as glass on a glass walled bordello. These guys are unbelievably inept if only someone would slap them down. No price paid for all their telegraphing of punches.

This obviously has stung them. The MAIN way this whole thing could be stopped is simply for people everywhere to become aware of the criminal machinations. That must instill panic and a panic reaction even though most of the news media is still busy trimming its nails.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemReadingDU]

83. K&R

[watercolors]

92. He was on Democracy now today

with Amy Goodman talking about same, he wondered how we get thru 2 more years of this administration!

He feels they will try hard for a war with Iran & Syria. Said Condi not happy, Cheney and Elliot Abrhams don't much care for her. Abrahams goes behind her back to inform Cheney of all her actions.
Transcript might be on Democracynow.org, check out war and peace report.