Tom Russurt on Imus, msnbc--talking of OBL tape.

[rodeodance]

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

1. tapes of . . . . .? nt.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. you said "tapes"-plural

Are you referring to the bin Laden tape and another tape? Or something else?

[H2O Man]

3. I find it odd

that none of the "experts" on tv are putting the new tape into the context that Michael Scheuer details in chapter 5, specifically pages 152-161, of "Imperial Hubris." Usama bin Laden took three steps that are outlined in those pages with the tape. I do not believe that the "experts" are unaware of this.

[rodeodance]

4. al gore is extrememly popular with moveon.org, bloggers says tim

[rodeodance]

5. thanks, I did not know that either

[H2O Man]

6. One of the things

that I tried to stress to DUers yesterday is the benefit of questioning everything, and of not coming to conclusions about the tape based upon previously held beliefs that do not have a good foundation. A good example is the commonly held belief among DUers that Usama bin Laden was a CIA asset in Afghanistan. There are numerous articles to be found, all of which were authored after 1992, which make this claim. Yet there is no evidence from dating from the Afghanistan resistance to the Soviet invasion that indicates bin Laden had any connection to the CIA. In fact, Peter Bergen, the author of a new book on bin Laden, has said that there was no such connection. For those who are not comfortable with Peter, "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace" by Gore Vidal, hardly a right-wing mouthpiece, states the same thing.

If those who have based their opinion of bin Laden upon the belief he was/is connected to the CIA just consider the possibility that, in fact, he wasn't/isn't, it puts the tape into a very different context. I am not suggesting that anyone base their beliefs on what I am saying, or even what Bergen or Vidal write. I would strongly urge people to question everything, and to not accept any claim of fact on face value.

It's said that in order to get a clear view of a picture, one has to step outside the frame. Every person owes it to themself and to the concept of democracy to do just that.

[rodeodance]

7. thank you . I have knee jerk reactions that I need to check--and your

post will remind me.

..I would strongly urge people to question everything, and to not accept any claim of fact on face value.

[FloridaPat]

10. It was my understanding - at that time - that Reagan was paying the

bills for bin Ladin to make Afghanistan a mess. I remember the articles that after the Soviets pulled out, Bush told them no more money.

[H2O Man]

13. Usama bin Laden

did not depend upon Reagan for money. In fact, the Reagan administration went to the Saudis for financial assistance in Afghanistan.

[NNN0LHI]

11. The CIA admits bin Laden was in Afghanistan terrorizing the Soviets for us

http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1

<snip>As anyone who has bothered to read this far certainly knows by now, bin Laden is the heir to Saudi construction fortune who, at least since the early 1990s, has used that money to finance countless attacks on U.S. interests and those of its Arab allies around the world.

As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.

What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

By no means was Osama bin Laden the leader of Afghanistan’s mujahedeen. His money gave him undue prominence in the Afghan struggle, but the vast majority of those who fought and died for Afghanistan’s freedom - like the Taliban regime that now holds sway over most of that tortured nation - were Afghan nationals.

[H2O Man]

14. No one questions

that Usama bin Laden was in Afghanistan. And there is agreement that he was fighting the Soviet Union. More, there is no doubt that people associated with him helped funnel the financial aid that the CIA helped bring to the mujahedeen.

[Me.]

8. What Three? n/t

[sendero]

9. Could you explain..

.... all of the steps outlined, and the 3 that OBL took????

[H2O Man]

12. I do not want

to hijack rodeodance's thread, and so maybe I should put start another one. But, briefly, I'll quote a little here from page 152 of Michael's book:

"....bin Laden has repeatedly warned Americans that another al Qaeda attack on the United States is in the offing .... He also offered U.S. leaders and the American people the chance to convert to Islam, volunteering himself to be their teacher and guide on the path to God's truth. It appears, moreover, that al Qaeda prompted a well-known and respected Saudi Islamic scholar to write and publish a treatise that, in religious terms, justifies the use of weapons of mass destruction in the United States. Finally, bin Laden has appealed directly to the American people to use their democratic system of government to force U.S. leaders to abrogate policies that are harming the Muslim world, in essence saying that U.S. citizens have it in their power to end the war between America and Islam and if they do not use it, they merit any tragedy that befalls them."

In 2004, I posted something on DU that was as unpopular as I expected it to be, and I do not anticipate that many people will agree with my opinion today, either. But, when the Bush administration took power in 2001, they began to prepare to invade Iraq, and those who we refer to as "militant Islamists," while no fans of Saddam, did not want a PNAC/neocon base in Muslim lands. 9-11 was intended to disrupt the neocon plan. Usama bin Laden is aware of the issues involving Iran right now. The tape heard yesterday can be best understood in the context of the growing tensions between Iran and Isreal/USA.

The American people need to reject all people who advocate violence, the killing of thousands of innocents, and hatred as representing "Divine will." We have morally corrupt people, around the globe, leading us on a path towards self-destruction. A couple days ago, we all heard the echo of Martin Luther King, Jr's voice, coming to us through the past four decades of madness. What a contrast between Martin and the insanity of bin Laden or Dick Cheney.

[rodeodance]

15. hyjack away please, you are saying important things that I wish we

would really discuss. Separate thread with a differnt subject line might stimulate some good discussion.

[sendero]

16. Thanks..

... I did not see RD's thread - I will try to find it.

I know from independent sources (folks in the military) that preparations for the Iraq war were underway well before 911.

The idea that we basically picked a fight with them is not too hard to believe.

[Me.]

17. Are we Primed For Another Attack?

"9-11 was intended to disrupt the neocon plan"

And given what has happened since 9-11, why does he think that would stop them or that they would change their plans? We seem to be the pawns here, caught between 2 madmen.

[H2O Man]

18. Kind of an odd thought ....

that we are, in a sense, all hostages to two men, each convinced that they are doing God's will while the other is doing satan's works. Both are looking in a mirror, but not recognizing the image.

Perhaps Rita Cosby could do another of her clown segments on being taken hostage? Or should we all revisit the "civil defense drills" of old, and crawl under our desks?

[bud E. holly]

19. I WAS very sceptical of the origins OBL's message & it's

seemingly convenient timing. I have, however, been thinking all morning about your posts in this thread....went back and re-read the transcript of the tape. I think I do need to look at this from a different perspective (and I need to read "Imperial Hubris"). I usually take comfort whenever I gain some greater insight(knowledge is power). I'm not comforted this time, especially in view of the path we are headed down with Iran, and the way this tape is being used to attack Democrats. I want to thank-you anyhow.