Question: When did the USA jump the shark?

[PretzelWarrior]

Was it as early as Wilsonion philosophy in turn of the century that would surely lead to our demise?

Was it the post world war 2 years under Ike?

Was it death of so many leaders that gave us hope in the 60's?

Was it the post Nixon/Watergate/Vietnam excesses of 70's with stagflation and malaise?

When was there a clear indication the arc of US live was headed down instead of up?

[TN al]

1. When the supremes ruled in Bush v Gore

[PassingFair]

2. When they impeached Clinton over a blow-job.

The relentless hunting of a dem president, all because the ravening wolves we call the neocons temporarily lost power.

I wish I had understood just HOW thwarted they felt during the Clinton era.

[rodeodance]

4. for me it was the Contract on America--Newt and his gang

[justabob]

3. Vietnam and the 'counter culture' of the sixties

I don't mean the counter culture was a bad thing, but the over-reaction to it under Nixon was a BIG problem.

[PretzelWarrior]

6. I think I'm leaning toward that time frame

there are other good candidates such as the last time USA tried to get hands into everything and "Ugly American" was published to speak out about that paradigm.

BUt I do believe the 68 convention in Chicago showed a deep problem in our country after the 60's had brought so much promise with women's equality movement, civil rights movement, etc.

[justabob]

15. It is where this mess we find ourselves in all begins

All those chickenhawks never got over losing in Vietnam... even though they couldn't be bothered to participate. They also never got over all the social progress of the time. Most of the inner circle of the current admin cut their teeth under Nixon and so have been plotting since that time to finish what they started back then.... especially presidential powers, but also this obsession with world domination. Its really creepy to me. I haven't expressed myself very well, but I hope I am making *some* sense.

[annabanana]

49. by the ones who didn't "get it"..

That was where they got their anger and their determination. (Geez, maybe we shouldnt' have laughed so hard at them... and maybe a few of us hippie chicks could have thrown just a little lovin their way for pity's sake...)

Perhaps they wouldn't have ended up so bitter and hateful.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. mid-February, 1968

as Marine 2/5 took X casualties per square yard trying to retake Hue City, RVN.

[Harry S Truman]

7. When the media went to hell

leaving us with 60 Minutes doing horseshit stories every week.

[PretzelWarrior]

9. and when was that? Removing fairness doctrine under Reagan?

or the Telecommunications Act of 1996 that we can thank GOP congress and REpublican-LITE, CLinton for.

[tlsmith1963]

32. Yeah, It's So Ironic

That the conservatives like to yell about the media (supposedly) being controlled by liberals, & yet it was one of *their* guys who took away the Fairness Doctrine. I want it back, just so CNN will stop looking like Fox News.

Tammy

[htuttle]

8. 1980

If we'd gone the direction Carter seemed to want to take us in, we'd be more like Canada (with a more checkered history).

As it happened, Reagan's election and subsequent terms were like a mid life crisis. We went out and blew a bundle on a shiny red corvette so we could feel 'young' and 'strong' again...Unfortunately, the salesman was a crook, and the 'vette turned out to be a lemon.

We still got the toupee, though.

[zippy890]

10. yeah - Reagan moved us onto the wrong road

I would say it was 1984 - when he won the second term. That was when America died. How the f**k people could vote him in again.

good post, well put

but.....who's got the toupee?

[PretzelWarrior]

29. I'm depressed. THat 1984 and 1972 election were horrible

at least Bush didn't get the satisfaction. He barely hung on. Mainly through lies, corruption, and voter stupidity.

[Democrats_win]

11. LOL. America stopped working for Americans in 1981 with Raygun.

[sendero]

14. Exactly...

... we took our turn for the worse in the 80s. That's when the culture started buying into the "greed is good" meme and other bullshit that have subsequently destroyed the country.

[depakid]

33. Yep- that was the end of the American enlightment

When science and reason were gradually replaced by fundamentalism and simplistic, dishonest and dysfunctional ideology.

Responsible regulation (especially some 50 years of media regulation) was replaced by so called "free market" theology.

Corruption and graft rose to new (acceptible) heights, egged on by the rise of PAC's (and the Supreme Court's ill advised decision ib Buckely v. Valeo).

That was the point beyond which there was no return. People blame Bush for a lot of things- but the fact is that without the Reagan administration and the fawning media that idolized him, there wouldn't be a Bush Jr. and the far right would have remained relegated to the fringe, where it belongs.

[MamaBear]

12. August, 1945

When the U.S. detonated a nuclear device over the city of Nagasaki, Japan. Personally, I would put it at the nuclear attack on Hiroshima, but many believe that was necessary to end WWII. The strike on Nagasaki, imo, was a gratuitous show of force/weapons experiment.

We haven't known a day of peace since.

:nuke: :nuke:

[PretzelWarrior]

18. it certainly was the most graphic representation of horrendous death

mirrored by the many civilians who died in Dresden and Tokyo fire bombings. Those many innocents were just as much captives of hostile regimes as we are.

[Catchawave]

13. 2000

Bush's "selection". And the Dems rolled over on their backs. Amazing.

[In Truth We Trust]

16. Collectively, all of the above, but for a "shark Jumping" single act

I would postulate that it may have been the Warren Commission lie. It cemented their ability to propagandize without repudiation. Along the same time the repuplicans and neoconservastives committed to a corporate takeover of democracy in America.

[Mike Nelson]

17. When George W Bush seized office

It should have stsarted ab revolution -- maybe it still will

[sweetheart]

19. corporate personhood

The origin is in the ending moments of the civil war, when the abolition
of slaves was hyjakked to create a new un-enslaveable plantation-corporation
that has since become the basis of all government.

[PretzelWarrior]

21. what years did that legislation and case law happen?

seems it was in the 1870s or 1880s?

[sweetheart]

23. here's a full history

In San Mateo v. Southern Pacific R. Co., 13 F. 722 (C.C.D. Cal. 1882),
corporate lawyers attacked a provision of the California constitution that
assessed property taxes against railroad corporations differently from
assessments for non-corporate properties. Attorneys for the railroad
companies argued that by taxing their property differently from the property
of natural persons, California violated corporate "rights" secured by
the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

http://www.poclad.org/ModelLegalBrief.cfm

[Loge23]

20. The Kennedy assassination - RFK

In 1968, everything seemed to going our way. It was truly the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
Then, RFK was shot down. We got Nixon instead of Bobby Kennedy.
We had that golden moment in 1992 as Clinton was sworn in and Maya Angelou heralded the "pulse of this new day...".
But the downturn was started long before.
Bush is just a symton.

[TahitiNut]

22. 1981

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam took the blinkers off.

Many people here, and around the world, began to see that America was no more the "Land of the free and the home of the brave", than any other empire.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

25. Springtime...

1948.

[PretzelWarrior]

28. what in particular about that?

that was pre Korea, right? so...........

[Ani Yun Wiya]

35. In particular...

OSS, NSA, CIA.

I think this was the start of the state of mind called "Being the World's Policeman"

Formative year for "The Cold War".

[PretzelWarrior]

57. very good point.

I am so curious to know what life would have felt like for average person in 1940 or so. Before the federal government went crazy with the war mongering and build up of federal powers.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

65. I am sorry that

I do not have any personal knowledge of that era.
I was born in '52 and can only comment from about '57 onwards.
Growing up in NYC gave even youngsters a wide perspective on life.

[Godai Kyoko]

26. I don't believe it has

There have been major steps backward along the way. The Dred Scott decision, Plessy V Ferguson etc set us back 600,000 lives and 80 years respectivly, And people have been asking this question in one form or another since 1789.

But i think the main ideas are still out there, despite individual events. Everyone the world over pretty much agrees with what Jefferson and the boys started back in 1775. Governments the world over depend on consent, either coerced, or defruaded or whatever, but still the active consent of the people.

So as long as we acivly defend every oppressed person, as long as we compete actilvly at the ballot box in the arena of ideas, we are moving America forward. In the world of ideas it is still "Three yards and a cloud of dust." And one irritating reallity of democracy is sometimes we have to punt and the other side has the ball. And they will do their best to move their ball forward. Patience, ideas, and hard work are the path to victory. Surrender just makes the other guys wins more secure.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. I"m not surrenduring. just think America Empire is down for the count

and it's just a matter of how long or how precipitous the slide.

Tell me one GREAT THING that has happned to us in America in the past 5 years due to our federal government.

[ljm2002]

30. First Iraq invasion...

...when the press meekly rolled over as Bush I and the Pentagon informed them that they would not be "allowed" anywhere without their military escorts.

Managed news, the telltale sign of a controlled society. And that is what we are right now.

I remember thinking I could not despise anyone more than I despised Bush I, who to me illustrated perfectly the expression "the banality of evil".

I could not have imagined how bad it would get...

[tlsmith1963]

31. It's Been Going Down For Awhile

But I didn't really think that America had jumped the shark until Bush & the neocons came to power. Because of them, I actually think that America might be over. I never felt that way before, not even during Reagan or Nixon.

Tammy

[Hardrada]

36. Same here

After MLK and RFK were murdered, we still persisted with the Movement even into the Nixon years. But after 2000, we seem to be in greater darkness.

[bpilgrim]

34. 12-12-2000

for me anyways...

peace

[Swamp Rat]

61. yep

Then, America flailed about in the pool of sharks until September 12, 2002 (Bush signed the National Security Strategy) ... 2003 she was a bloody mess ... 2004, she was chum. By August 2005, her meaty bones sank to the bottom of the Gulf.

"Dangerous doctrine"
http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=ma05speed

peace from New Orleans

[leftofthedial]

37. during Clinton's presidency

when a conservative corporatist convinced us that NAFTA and GAAT would be good for the economy

and when fascist RW ideologues impeached Clinton over nothing.

[kohodog]

38. Shark? USA is trying to jump the couch as we speak. n/t

[PretzelWarrior]

42. ah yes. the Tom Cruise effect. What would be equivalent?

I'd say something like....Bush going to U.N. and telling them to f*ck off..we're gonna do things our way on everything. Oh wait. He already did that.

[leeroysphitz]

39. "Jumping the Shark" is when something (usually a TV show)

takes it's self TOO seriously and thus does something so ridiculous that observers can no longer take it seriously at all and an inevitable decline in popularity follows.

By this standard the U.S. has yet to truly "jump the shark".

Our "leaders" have acted ridiculously but there are many in the world that still take what this nation has represented in the past and will hopefully represent in the future VERY seriously.

There is no decline in those seeking to live, work and raise families in this country.

I'm not saying we aren't close to "Spock Singing with the space hippies" (Star Trek's "jump the shark" moment in the 60's) but I believe we have time (and more importantly the WILL) to pull back and get Fonzy off of those water skis...

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

40. uuummmm . . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x212611

[leeroysphitz]

43. UMMMMMMM

I disagree. I live in Dearborn Michigan. I see new immigrants, MUSLIM and Arab immigrants (Dearborn has one of the largest Arab populations outside of the middle east in the world.) every day. They do not come here to Michigan for the climate. They don not come here because they hate this country. They do not come here out of disrespect to this country.

People around the world hate what our GOVERNMENT is doing, and rightly so , but they do not hate what America used to be and could still be.

Lighten up. We have lots and lots of work to do but let's not cut off our collective nose to spite our face. Bush and those who follow (and LEAD) him are the problem NOT America itself.

[PretzelWarrior]

45. based on popular vote in 2004....Bush IS the America of today

we have spoiled fat kids who don't know anything about hard work. we have a vacuous society built around consuming and shopping and protecting existing wealth and privilege vs. creating/innovating.

Just look in the mirror and look in the stores and in the neighborhoods. America is in deep decline.

[leeroysphitz]

47. You look in the mirror...

part of that decline is people who GIVE UP.

[PretzelWarrior]

48. I'm not giving up. I work hard every day. the mere fact I'm

discussing this and getting people to step out of denial mode is a function of not giving up.

Maybe you're a bit to Nationalist. The mere thought of not being able to chant: "USA!USA!USA!" and win the most gold medals in the olympics and feel proud merely due to your country of birth seems to be getting to you.

[leeroysphitz]

52. You could not be more off base with your BS nationalism attack,

your somewhat veiled personal attacks or more negative. Be that as it may I stand by my statements and reject yours.

If we are in the throws of immenent and unavoidable decline then why exactly are you so BRAVELY and SELFLESSLY fighting the good fight to make sure everyone knows just how FAT and bankrupt a nation we are? I mean what's the point in trying to wake up us lazy jingoistic bufoons if it's all fated without hope to end in disaster? Seems like a lot of effort to make for such an overweight illiterate mob like us.

And btw way who told you I take PRIDE in anything that's been done in my name in the last 6 years? Who told you I'm proud of the dirt I stand on and not the constitution that gives it meaning? Who told you I have EVER in my LIFE whatched the friggin Olympics?

Calm down sparky. Nobody yanked yer chain.

Now go get your shinebox...

[PretzelWarrior]

60. why do I fight? and continue to work?

because nothing is written in stone. I guess things could continue on the arc they have been on...but I am hoping our collective psychosis we seem to be going through gives way to harder work...deeper meaning in our lives and being a better nation that takes care of others and especially the environment--the number 1 threat to the human race.

I just find it amazing that people are so quick to point out how swimmingly things are going for this country. Unless we shake off the tyranny that is slowly creeping over this country....we are really doomed as an influential nation and will find ourselves at the mercy of more radical and negative forces inside and outside this country.

This post was a legitimate question. I guess the answer "we haven't jumped the shark" as a nation is a valid one...but I just need some quantitative and qualitative information to back up such a rosy forecast.

[leeroysphitz]

62. "because nothing is written in stone"

That was my whole point but I defy you to find anything "swimming" or "rosy" in my posts.
Don't confuse hope with blindness.

[PretzelWarrior]

41. actually, Jump the Shark means....

when a show hasn't exactly sunk to a low level....but series of events can be traced as "the beginning of the end" decline. For shows, there is that point such as Brady BUnch trips to Hawaii and Grand Canyon or Laverne and Shirley moving to L.A.

We must understand that this country doesn't look to have a macro level upswing in it's future. This is why American corporations have gone multinational and are hedging their bets by expanding ventures to Asia/Latin America/Europe.

[leeroysphitz]

44. But the "beginig of the end" events such as those you mentioned

typically fit into my definition perfectly. (Fonzy, Spock, Brady Bunch Ghost towns etc...)
but if you feel the end is inevitable and only a matter of time then
I won't presume to debate you...

[PretzelWarrior]

46. what is "the end"?

I'm referring to the end of America as an ascendant and optimistic view of man's best. Rousseau's flattery of America and the enlightened formation of our government is a distant thing.

America is in the death throes as a preeminent power. We're losing ground academically, culturally, economically, and in many other aspects of an enriched life.

Say bye bye. Asia is the new dominant force in world events. Just give it another 10 to 20 years to see the full effect.

[LiberalAndProud]

54. Is that a legacy of Happy Days?

Did Fonzy jump a shark?

[leeroysphitz]

55. It seems he did.

And there is a website of the same name that has popularized the phrase.

[PretzelWarrior]

56. yeah. and there's also a book with that title

pretty funny reading. espcially about how that one actor Ted McGinely joining your cast is a sure sign the show has "jumped the shark".

http://www.jumptheshark.com/ted.htm

[High Plains]

50. When people starting using phrases like "jump the shark"

[PretzelWarrior]

51. huh? please explain yourself.

how is my asking this question evidence of America's decline?

[LiberalAndProud]

53. Demise of the fairness doctrine. 1987

In 1987, Ronald Reagan's appointees to the FCC abandoned the fairness doctrine, which had required broadcast stations to maintain editorial balance and to offer reply time to those who were personally attacked on the air.

[SaveElmer]

58. It most definitely has not...

Good God, as bad as the Bushies are, and as big a mess as he has created, American has certainly been through far worse times, and more vehement debates over what our country stood for.

Virtually the entire period from 1787 through the end of Reconstruction was spent shaking this out.

The 20th Century saw the rise of the US to world power status, and there is no evidence that this has dimished in any meaningful way. We still have the same limitations on projecting our power throughout the world as we always have, our influence waxes and wanes some periodically, but we are still the pre-eminent power in the world with no sign that we are going to be overtaken.

We are simply confronted with a new set of challenges. Americans have proven very adept over the last two centuries at adapting and excelling in response to these challenges.

[leeroysphitz]

63. "challenges". A damn fine way to put it! n/t

[LSdemocrat]

59. 1. Bush v. Gore. Strong second (and rising): Iraq War 2

[benburch]

64. When Ford Pardoned Nixon.

When it became clear that a chief executive could always avoid the criminal consequences of his actions, the die was cast.