What should be done for the addicts that end up in the street?

[mdmc]

This is a question for liberals.

What should be done for the homeless and hungry? As a liberal, I think that they should be housed and fed. I reach this conclusion through empathy and compassion.

Now what about those that end up homeless and hungry due to gambling, drugs, or alcohol?

We shouldn't enable them, nor should we turn our backs to them. We shouldn't force treatment on them, or should we.

I wonder what you here at DU think; What is the best way to help someone that is down and out? What would a good liberal do when s/he realizes that someone they know is down and out?

[NMDemDist2]

1. the UK gives them heroin and many get jobs and become

productive members of society

crack and crank are more difficult

i give them a couple bucks (or not) depending on the day. it's a tragedy the number of homeless here in the US and I know I've been one illness away from the street more times than I care to admit

treatment, housing and food are the least we can do. and not tied to a "Faith Based" initiative either....

[mdmc]

2. I wonder if treatment of some kind should be a requirement in

order to receive assistance. It is in many ways here in NYS.

[EFerrari]

11. I think not. Supportive housing works really well, coercion doesn't.

What I mean is, the model that seems to work well for the most people is housing with in house services that can help people get on their feet: job placement, a social worker to help refer clients to (dwindling) resources like basic health care, substance abuse treatment, childcare.

These housing situations typically don't allow drugs or alcohol on the premises and encourage clean and sober living -- many have meetings right on the prem.

But at bottom, it's really hard to stay sober if you're stressed out by homelessness, isn't it? Housing a three squares can reduce that stress and give you a chance in hell of staying clean. I don't think it works the other way around for most people. :)

/typin

[Gormy Cuss]

37. The supportive housing model is the best approach to date

but it still fails to reach many of the street people with multiple barriers (addiction and mental illness being the primary difficult combo.) Still, I would love to see an expansion of supportive services with housing so that anyone who has reached the point of wanting to clean up and come in off the street has the opportunity. Right now it's all too often the case that court-mandated prison or treatment programs are the most expedient route to comprehensive supportive services.

[etherealtruth]

60. I think your point about addiction ...

... co-occurring with mental illness is an important one. Sadly, it seems to me, that prisons have become the biggest "housing/treatment" units. It is ridiculous to assume that any actual treatment or rehabilitation occurs there.

[Gormy Cuss]

61. Some prisons are better than others

not that any are the appropriate place for dealing with addiction and they are most certainly not appropriate for the mentally ill. I've known some addicts who were able to clean up after being incarcerated in a Federal facility with comprehensive services but most I've known were in county or state facilities that were basically warehousing them for the term. These were all low income addicts. The well off addicts I've known usually were able to avoid incarceration.

[EFerrari]

75. The Los Angeles County Jail is the biggest mental health

treatmemt provider in the world. Which means they get some funding, lots of bodies and no oversight.

:(

[etherealtruth]

90. It sickens me that this is how ...

...our society chooses to deal with the problems of mental illness and addiction!

[EFerrari]

92. I know. And families that buck the system meet really stiff

resistance. But, we have to just keep at it because mental health issues aren't going away any time soon.

[EFerrari]

76. My husband landed in jail at least four times because he had

mistreated, not untreated, major mental illness. It was nerve wracking. I never knew if he could keep it together long enough to complete his community service or if he'd decompensate and be subject to further penalty for not "complying" with his sentence. And the whole time, we were trying like mad to find out what the heck was going on with him and then, who the heck could actually provide appropriate treatment.

I can only imagine how many families go through this. Wonder how much of our jail and prison pop is made up of people who just couldn't get good care and the consequences mounted for them.

[bobbolink]

40. In order to answer your question-- put yourself in the shoes of a

homeless person for a while.

Think of yourself as having lost your job, and being out of work for ...oh, say 3 or so years (I know many in that situation).

You had worked hard, saved, bought a house. Done all the "right" things. You've now used up your savings, lost your house, and there you are, on the street.

Not alcoholic, just very stunned that this happened to you, and discouraged that you can't find another job.

Not addicted--you never even experimented with any substances.

Again-- you've done all the "Right" things, but you can't help feeling that something is wrong with you, for having failed so badly.

Now, would you like to have to depend on "help" from people who assume and REQUIRE that you enter programs on alcoholism and addiction?? How would that affect your already sagging self-esteem?

How would you feel being in the situation of having to PROVE yourself "clean"? (Remember, you can't prove a negative)

Think what this would do to you over time.

Does that answer your queston?

[twilight_sailing]

3. Well, mdmc,

I don't have a comprehensive plan but let me tell you what my own personal decision has been.

It's been about 30 years since someone first told me not to give money to winos. Every now and then someone still will. They will say things like, "He is only going to use that money to get another drink!" as if that were the worst thing in the world.

I'll also give a cigarette to most folks if they ask me for one.

There are all kinds of people and in my long life I have never been able to point to one group and say they are categorically better than another. I wouldn't trust a junkie with my wallet but I wouldn't trust a Republican to be able to back up his point of view with facts either.




edited for spelling

[mdmc]

6. Is there a better way?

Many social workers I know can easily walk over a hobo (make the hobo use services that are in place for assistance); Ned Flanders (the Simpsons) would most likely take the hobo home with him. You and I might buy the some food and smokes.

Is there a better way?

[twilight_sailing]

10. I don't know.

Perhaps we could study other cultures, perhaps another nation has arrived at some better solution.

I am surely not smart enough to make one up out of whole cloth. ;)

[zanne]

15. I give winos money.

Someone who drinks enough to be homeless could die from a sudden withdrawal of alcohol. As with other drugs, I don't care how they got there, because sudden withdrawal from any drug can make people seriously sick.

[boobooday]

57. Don't trust a Republican with your wallet either . . . n/t

[rosesaylavee]

4. Not sure what a good liberal would do or if

I am one. I think the homeless issue is complex. Lots of reasons why people are homeless. Addiction, job loss, family upheaval, divorce, lack of or inability to financially plan, severe healthcare costs, physical and mental health issues.

Offering those that find themselves homeless a variety of options is what is needed. There needs to be a safety net for helping people who find themselves without one but with the expectation that they will and can return to a home of their own.

Those with recurring addictions and health issues are what makes this complex - forcing treatment has never worked. Incarcerating people for their addiction is not moral, IMO. And sometimes the health issues are severe enough that maintaining a home on their own is just not going to happen. I would think we need to find a way of sheltering these people and keeping them actively in our community... accepting them on the level at which they find themselves. Allowing our addicted and mentally ill neighbors to live in boxes and back alleys is not acceptable.

[mdmc]

7. thanks for your input

very liberal (well reasoned and intellectual).

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. There are many people born into this world

who for one reason or another can't take care of themselves. It is then up to society to find ways to help take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

[EFerrari]

12. Yes.

[nam78_two]

85. Agreed

:thumbsup:

[Glorfindel]

8. Offer to help, of course

To me, pretending a problem doesn't exist is the worst possible approach. Even if you can't change the circumstances of someone's life (and you most likely can't), you can help with immediate problems. If they're hungry, feed them. If they're cold and dirty, provide a bath and warm clothing. Offer to help them find shelter and/or professional help, and refrain from getting angry if they decline long-term assistance. We can't live other people's lives for them. I guess there will always be the "undeserving poor" (to quote Mr. Doolittle in "My Fair Lady") among us. I was once addicted to cigarettes, and I remember how angry I'd get when other people encouraged me to quit smoking (though I tried not to show it). Forcing treatment on others doesn't strike me as a good option.

[Poppyseedman]

9. We shouldn't force treatment on them, or should we.

Of course we should force treatment on them if they are drug or alcohol addicts.

The simple fact they are addicted to either to the point they are homeless tells us they are beyond rational thoughts or are beyond the ability to help themselves.

I know "what about their rights" argument but what about our rights to live in a clean city not having to step over human excrement and people who sleep on the outside who are unclean, smelly and sometimes dangerous not only to themselves but to other people.

Take them off the street, help them even if they don't want it and at least get them to the point they are rational and able to make good decisions to help themselves or at least put them in a safe place where they are taken care of like human beings and not live like animals.

[EFerrari]

14. How many pay checks are you from homelessness?

And have you ever considered in your vast experience with homeless people that self medicating may be one of the only ways they can "take care of themselves" in their situation.

Before you blame the fucking victim, or suggest that your fellow citizens be treated like meat or sent to Gitmo, try to learn SOMETHING:
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/

[Poppyseedman]

20. Treated like being sent to Gitmo? WTF ?

I see you are getting lots of exercise by jumping vast chasms of logic. How is making people get treatment in hospitals or medical facilities comparable to being sent to Gitmo?

How many people who need medication to lead productive lives are self medicating living on the streets ? Not many at all.

Drug / alcohol addicts are not victims. There are at that point in their life by their choice, by leaving them in the streets to live like an animal is a damn lot closer to Gitmo than making get treatment for their addiction.

And yes, I've been a couple of paychecks away from being homeless.

I'm not speaking of the homeless that simply need financial help to get back on their feet, but the ones who have addiction problems as the original poster asked about.

I can't know how the fuck you jumped all over my shit since THAT was the question or do you prefer to see people sleeping in the streets surrounded by excrement and needles and crack pipes ???

I know I don't

[EFerrari]

22. How much coercion is too much, in your opinion?

How effective is coerced substance abuse treatment -- do you have any clue?

You have a right to walk on clean streets which clearly is a higher priority than actually dealing with learning about the realities of homelessness or addiction, let alone dealing with them.

That's how.

[Poppyseedman]

23. Please answer my question about Gitmo

How is helping people even by coercion when they currently live like sub humans comparable to being taken prisoner in a place like Gitmo.

You made the comparison, now please explain?

BTW, I have a clue, do you?

Mandatory treatment is not as effective as voluntary treatment, but there are actually very few studies to base that assessment on long term.

I think, yes it's a personal opinion, mandatory treatment is better than no treatment, even if the success rate is only 20% those people who have been successful would think otherwise.

As for how far should we go with mandatory treatment, As far as I am concerned any drug / alcohol addict living on the street for longer than a 90 days that doesn't seek help needs to be put in treatment.

[EFerrari]

25. I hope you are never subjected to your own recommendation

and I hope you are never on the street at the mercy of authorians whose first interest is a clean sidewalk.

[Poppyseedman]

30. I pray if I ever get to the point where I am living on the street

addicted to drugs unable to care for myself, some government entity would haul my ass off to a treatment or medical facility to get me help I am unable or unwilling to get myself.

I simply don't understand how people can step over drug addicts laying in the street and think it's O.K. because they refuse to be helped.

[seabeyond]

39. you dont get it, or you dont listen

when i did drugs people like you wanted ot fix me. it was looking at me and you feeling pain, then projecting that pain onto me. your fear, you gave to me. i was content. i made my choices. i didnt feel a lack of human dignity. you couldnt see it or know it, because just the outside of who i was offended you. but it didnt offend me. i still knew my worth. you didnt see my worth. i still held onto my dignity. you didnt see my dignity.

what you are missing is this perception is about you.... not about the person on the street

[bobbolink]

49. You are so on target!

Walking a mile in those moccasins... still a most valuable learning!

[seabeyond]

28. you people scare me. wow to your post. offensive in so many ways

in your self righteous insistance you have your clean and tidy little world. so if people dont meet your standards, take them off the street and reprogram. so your world smells of roses.

[Poppyseedman]

31. No. you are completely wrong.

it's not an affront to my "clean and tidy little world" to see people laying in the streets. It not about my standards, it's about human dignity. Just because a drug addict is so mentally sick they can't even realize they are living a sub human existence, it is my duty as a citizen to get them help, even if they don't want it.

I've seen the drug addicts living in the streets in Miami by the hundreds. Not one of them wouldn't trade their lives for a decent place to live, a job, and hope.

Reprogramming, whatever that means, a drug addict is a bad thing???

[seabeyond]

36. your definition of human diginity and how it should be applied?

does a person have a right to not feel the importance or necessity on your definition of human dignity? what i am saying is, because you preceive the person is lacking in human dignity, that person may well feel like it doesnt belong in his world,or he has it, or doesnt wnat it or is insignificant. but you feel it is important enough to interfer in anothers life

i was a drug addict. i was not mentally sick. again this is your projecting onto another, without true knowledge, just a perception. and they realize how they are living. again, ... lol lol you make up your story to the picture you see, doesnt make it true. and no it is not your duty as a citizen to decide how others should live, especially when they are not asking for your help, or they are demanding you leave them alone.

i totally disagree with you once again, deciding for another that not a one of them wouldnt trade their life for a decent place to live, job and hope...... if this were the case, they wouldnt be on the street i assure you. this is a much more complicated and huger issue than you paint. you wrap it all up with a pretty bow and it is not. some mental disorders alone, drugged to be able to live life as you decide is the human dignity, is a life that is not life to them. with their disorder the drug they would have to take to fit in,.... loses who they are. they dont want it. thye feellike a zombie. they dont feel their person. and you would be insisting they take it, cause after all, it is about your sense of human dignity.

"Reprogramming, whatever that means, a drug addict is a bad thing???"

firstly it cannot be done, period, if a person doesnt want it done. secondly reprogramming is not done, when the druggie decides they dont want the life, they stop.... if they ever decide. having the help there when they decide is what we have to offer. many will think it is time, try it and decide not the time. cannot be forced

why is it bad..... all the things we can decide does not fit human dignity, that we, in the know will decide needs to be programmed out of the people. lets just live in 1984.

we make our decisions in life. we create our life we live. it isnt yours to decide a person isnt living right. it isnt mine to decide, i need to fix you

[Occulus]

62. My blood pressure went down after I ignored that poster

And I think you all can see why I did it. I don't even need to read the posts to be able to figure out what this poster is saying, and I'm repulsed.

Whoever this poster is really needs to go to a dark, quiet place and do some long, hard thinking about how they view other people who are less fortunate than him/herself.

[nam78_two]

82. heh heh heh-I just saw this thread

And its someone I already have on ignore -don't ya just love the ignore function?
I have no idea what they are saying but from the responses its clear I would rather not know :).

[sandnsea]

35. Human excrement???

:wow:

If you were the person the addicted had to go through to get help, I imagine the streets would be full of homeless. Calling any human being excrement says a lot more about you than it does about the homeless or addicted.

[Poppyseedman]

41. No, I'm talking about literal human excrement

not calling them excrement.

In many cities the homeless drug addicts simply go to the bathroom right on the street.

[mark414]

53. that is the dumbest thing i've ever read.

have you ever been homeless? have you ever even talked to a homeless person?

i've done both and i can say that you are 100% wrong.

[Poppyseedman]

54. Of course I have talked to homeless people.

I am talking about drug / alcohol addicts who are homeless.

Have you been a homeless drug addict sleeping on the sidewalk and dropping your excrement wherever? If not, then what I wrote isn't applicable to you.

[Canadiana]

69. People are gangning up on, but I agree

A lot of people really don't know anything about addiction. The fact is, it becomes an absolute disease. I would liken it to a mental disease where the sufferer becomes completely irrational and does things they would NEVER do when sober. Ever.

Has anyone ever seen the show "Intervention" on A&E? It shows that once someone becomes addicted to a substance, such as Meth, they want it so bad, so utterly and unbelievably bad that they would hurt their own children for it. They would lie and kill for it. They don't want treatment because the meth addiction doesn't want to be treated. It owns them completely. They must initially be VERY VERY coerced into treatment...almost no one goes willingly. But they CAN be cured if they go.

[seabeyond]

74. the ones speaking or "ganging up" seem to be mostly made

up of the very people that have experienced addiction. so to suggest they dont really know.... well... i think you are a tad off

[Viva_La_Revolution]

88. forced treatment never works...

never have I seen an addict stay clean for over a year unless THEY made the decision to go into treatment. You can nudge them gently or not-so-gently, but you can not force them, it won't work.

[pat_k]

13. Providing subsistence support has little to do with compassion. . .

. . .or liberalism.

Americans aren't keen on stepping over people in the streets. Whatever the circumstances that leads a person to destitution, we don't want to see the effects. The desire to keep the reality at bay (the fact that a shameful percentage of Americans are destitute) is the reason voters will never allow Social Security to "run out."

Americans just don't want to step over starving old people.

The same goes for starving addicts, mentally ill, etc. When the numbers get high enough voters say "Do something. I don't want to see THIS. Make it go away!"

[EFerrari]

19. Yes. And then the town fathers generally drive their

homeless into the next town as Gavin Newsom is trying to do quietly here.

Helping the homeless has everything to do with liberalism which is in part found on the idea of equality.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

16. Affordable housing may be a big part of the solution

Skyrocketing real estate values in New York City led to the condo-conversion of many single-room-occupancy buildings where very poor people often lived. Conditions in those buildings were far from ideal, but at least people had roofs over their heads, and millions of children weren't being taught to ignore and step over thousands of down-and-out people on the streets.

IMO, unscrupulous real-estate developers like Trump and Macklowe need to be held in better check. There should be much more residential treatment available for people with mental health issues. And public housing managers need to be stopped from evicting families for little or no reason. It's a lot harder to bring homeless people back indoors than not to put them out on the street unnecessarily in the first place.

[seabeyond]

17. when i did it, i wanted it. i didnt feel sorry for me. as the stranger

passing the street probably did feel sorry for me. i was living my life exactly as i chose to live my life and i wanted no interference from anyone.

i think it is good to have places when a person wants help. i think it is good for people to have places for food. but to try to take away a persons addiction is none of my business. it is theirs to live or not live

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. I'm a do-gooder....

but I tend to agree with you.

Freedom means self-determination. I think we should be careful with feeling obliged to replace someone's judgement for our own.

[seabeyond]

27. exactly. it was a period of my life that i gained so much knowledge

from experience, an insight i value and hold onto today. would have been good for body to not do it. and thank god i came thru. i cannot express what it gave me though having gone thru those couple years. i dont know that i would want a change, if i had a do over

[porphyrian]

18. No one in our country should be homeless.

Drug abuse isn't usually the reason, it's usually a symptom. A great deal of the homeless are mentally ill to begin with. Maybe if we funded health care sufficiently for everyone, especially mental health care, we'd cut the problem of homelessness in half.

[NC_Nurse]

21. People who want help should be able to get it.

In the form of housing, treatment, mental health care, whatever. If they don't want it, they should be free to live as they choose. If more services were available to those who needed them, then it would only be those who CHOOSE to live in the streets who would be there. Poeple who are truly mentally incompetent sometimes have to be corralled against their wishes until they can be stabilized. If someone is mentally competent though, you can't force anything on them. I don't think that should change.

[leftofthedial]

24. we should house and feed them

and provide treatment for what ails them

of course, prior to that, we should provide treatment for what ails everyone in this country


but, we live in a capitalist country, so the prevailing approach to the problem will continue to be "screw 'em; let 'em die"

[Laughing Mirror]

29. You try to eliminate the causes that made them addicts and sent them

into the streets. What else can you do?

[mandyky]

32. Personal experience - I am in a treatment center

but was homeless, and had about 3 months sober. Many of my "housemates" are court ordered. It is an extensive 9 month to 1 year program. I entered treatment to get off the street, but thought I would be able to work or attend classes. This program is all recovery, and then after completion we'll move on to another program for job training and such.

Here in Lexington, KY there are a lot of homeless. Many are addicts or mentally ill. This administration has cut most social programs to bare bones.

Addicts should be put in treatment, jail does nothing to rehabilitate these days. Chemically dependendent "felons" who just had parafanalia or personal use amounts of drugs should not be clogging up the prisons anyway. From what I understand, people with meth charges have problems getting help with housing, even after treatment. I can see why recidivism is so high, because felons with drug charges can't get jobs, but have to if they are paroled. They can't get decent housing, and those pesky parole officers need to know where they can find them. It is a vicious circle.

[jazzjunkysue]

78. Good luck. Hold on, and stay sober. You deserve it.

Programs like these need funding. They're the only hope. Drugs fry your brain.

[meganmonkey]

33. Start with stable housing

and go from there. Not a cot in a room full of other people, but real housing. An efficiency apartment or whatever.

Offer stable housing with as few strings attached as possible. A place where they can stay for more than 30 days.

Whether or not drugs are in the picture, that is the most successful way to get a homeless person on track for recovery and self-sufficiency.

Stable housing. And access to social workers/counselors to help them figure out what gov't programs they qualify for (drug treatment, food assistance, job training, medical insurance, disability, etc).

[Nikia]

34. All Americans should be housed and fed

As well as provied with healthcare, including addiction treatment.
As much as the country spends on prisions, I don't think this would be as huge of cost as some would expect.

[bobbolink]

38. Please--be very careful NOT to equate homelessness with

addiction, alcoholism, etc!

That is a common misperception, furthered by some organizations, and it's patently untrue.

For example, there are many abused women, and many children who are homeless. Surely you wouldn't assume they are all addicts, etc, would you?

I don't know that is the gist of what you are saying, but from the way it's worded, you seem to be linking those together. I cringe, having done a lot of work with the homeless issue, because when something this untrue is put on *all* homeless people, the discrimination is horrendous on an already suffering populace.

I appreciate your question, if you are being clear that it is only one *segment* of the homeless population. It's something that needs to be discussed in a rational manner. Just, please, realize that this is such a broad stereotype among so many uninformed people, that it results in very mistaken approaches.

Thanks for bringing this up! :hi:

[Cleita]

43. This is true. See my post that follows yours.

Homelessness is not caused by addictions, but by an uncaring society.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. I'd Say The OP Went Out Of Their Way To Distinguish Between That.

It was quite clear that there was no equating one to the other.


I do take issue with this quote, however:
"For example, there are many abused women, and many children who are homeless. Surely you wouldn't assume they are all addicts, etc, would you?"

So even though the OP did not equate the two whatsoever, you now are implying that men who are homeless ARE homeless for those reasons, but please please please don't group women and children in with them? So where the OP didn't in fact err, I believe you just in fact did.

[mdmc]

55. I was afraid that would cause a problem

I only included it in the OP to push responding liberals a little more.

Should treatment be mandated for illness or addiction? What is the most effective way to assist those in need.

[Cleita]

42. We used to not have homeless even among the addicts.

When I was a bartender one demography of my clientele were golf caddies. Most of them were addicted to one or all of the above named vices mostly drinking and gambling. However, since many of them were marginally functional, they worked for a living at a job they could handle, carrying the golf bags of uber rich guys. Since it was a day job, there was no way they got fired if they were on a toot and didn't show up to work for several days.

All they had to do was show up when they wanted work and if there were enough rich guys who wanted to pay a caddy, they got a job for the day. Now any one of them in those days could have qualified for welfare and hospitilization on Medicaid, yet they were too proud to do so. Even though they were marginal, they were too proud to take hand outs. Also, most were vets and at that time they could get the medical care and medicine they needed at the VA.

There was plenty of cheap housing that rented on a daily or weekly basis or what were once known as flops, yet they were a place for them to shower, keep their belongs, and sleep. Most of these guys were incapable of paying monthly rent or saving enough for first and last rent for an apartment but they could manage the daily or weekly few dollars for a room with a bathroom.

Among younger addicts, there were communes, old houses rented down near Venice beach that housed hippies, where there were always at least enough of them working at any one time to pay the rent and feed the rest.

Then I saw the change come in the late seventies. First with the Jarvis ammendment came a housing boom. Speculators started buying up property as fast as it came on the market for twice, three times and up to five times it's value. This included the flops and hippie communes that were torn down or renovated for a yuppie clientele.

The caddies came around less and less frequently as their housing became coopted and they moved further and further away. In a couple of years they ended up on the streets. Also, piece by piece their veterans benefits were taken from them or lessened. By this time I had stopped working as a bartender and lost contact with them. I'm sure everyone of them has died on the streets choking on their own vomit.

So to answer your question, people like that cannot be rehabilitated until they choose to. In the meantime, they need work that they can handle. I would set up teams of people to show up for day work in our parks and along our roadways. I would also, get them somekind of medical card to be used when they need it and some cheap basic housing that they can pay the rent on a weekly basis.

Most of these people only need those things to survive and not be a burden on society until the day comes that they seek help for their addictions.

[bobbolink]

44. This is such an important example you gave! I wish this could be

posted far and wide---people have forgotten that it wasn't always the way it is now, and that there used to be more alternatives.

So much was lost because of "profit-making", and it's going to get much worse if people don't become aware, and start tackling this.

Now, it's progressed to the point where many small communities have been populated by the well-heeled, and there isn't any housing that is affordable for those working service-type jobs.

My own hometown, Los Alamos is one of these. There is *NO* housing for those who are working in stores, or restaurants. As a result, there is very little shopping, and more and more places are closing, and hardly any places to eat. People have to go to Santa Fe or even Albuquerque for those things. Serves 'em right, yet... what are they doing about it? What are small ski towns doing to avoid the very same thing? Most lower-income people have to commute from towns far away, and that is very bad for them during snowstorms, especially if they have kids! We have lost the ability to even THINK through these issues!

Thanks for a very important story!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Thanks for some historical perspective

Alcohol abuse in America is as old as America, and heroin, cocaine, and marijuana have all been around since the beginning of the twentieth century, and yet homelessness didn't explode until the Reagan administration.

That was the era in which real estate speculation went mad (at least in Minneapolis), so that renters might find their rents doubled within a year as properties changed hands, with purcases financed by increased rents. It was when the mental hospitals were closed (fairly abruptly) without being replaced by more humane treatment facilities.

Your example of the caddies is apt. There used to be a lot of work available for the marginal members of our society.

Your proposal to put people to work on public projects is also a good one. Portland has (used to have?) a program in which homeless people are paid to keep the downtown streets clean, but there is so much more to be done.

I would like to see a national candidate who came right out and said, "We need to stop meddling in the rest of the world and take care of our own house. The money now being wasted in Iraq and other foreign military disasters could be used to make America a shining example for the world. We need to ensure that everyone who wants a job can get one at a living wage, because there is plenty of work to do. They can repair our bridges and highways, build public transit systems, maintain our parks, and build affordable housing. We can end homelessness in five years if we do this."

But no. Everyone's too busy trying to prove how mean they'd be to the terrorists and how nice they'd be to big business.

[seabeyond]

48. good post cleita, .... i like n/t

[mdmc]

59. nice. thanks for the check in

I understand the "need to want treatment in order to be effective". I am trying to determine if mandated treatment, ultimately successful or otherwise (read= regardless of treatment success) makes for better public policy.

All/most CASAC's or MSW's agree that treatment is only effective if the client wants to be treated. I find that there is still ongoing debate on the effectiveness of mandated treatment (as a condition that must be met in order to receive public assistance).

[Cleita]

64. My point is that they don't have to be homeless because

they refuse treatment. There are alternatives that really wouldn't cost that much to implement. Also, remember that homeless people without safe and sanitary facilities to live in are more susceptible to contracting diseases like TB or AIDS, which can spread to the population at large.

Even if people can't summon any empathy for these people, at least they should have selfish reasons to contain disease that could spread to them and their children.

[kineneb]

83. public health

We are only as healthy as the sickest among us. TB does not distinguish between economic class.

Affordable housing in proper locations (accessible) is the key to getting started on the "homeless problem".

[mdmc]

84. lots of interesting poverty history in my home town

Newburgh, NY. This is the home of welfare reform.:eyes:

Newburgh does have many interesting housing projects, low income housing, and planned workers compounds (back when things were made here).

It is a very interesting place.

[Cleita]

87. I don't think you have to go even as far as constructing housing.

There are a lot of old hotels and motels that could be rennovated that are empty and unused in many places. Also, in a tourist location like mine that overflows with hotels and have less desirable rooms that are empty most of the year, I believe the law could stipulate that maybe 10% of the rentals be set aside for low income rentals with the government subsidizing the hotels for the difference in rents and maybe even giving tax breaks to accommodate weekly rentals and with the hotel owners reserving the right to evict unruly tenants.

I don't think they would be that unruly though as they would probably only be using the room to sleep and take a shower just like the caddies did. So if a person makes minimum wage at a day job, the weekly rent could be a quarter of 40 hours of minimum wage rental and the social welfare could pick up the difference that the hotels probably wouldn't make anyway except on busy holiday weekends. Sure sometimes they would sleep out in the streets when they couldn't make the rent, but the fact that they could go earn the money and come up with a weeks rent would be an incentive to get back to work.

[mdmc]

91. thanks for checking back in

:kick:

[distantearlywarning]

65. I like your suggestion better than some up thread.

"Force them into rehab so I don't have to see them cluttering up my nice streets"

Your suggestion of providing low-income housing and day work is reasonable, and allows them dignity.

At various points in my life, I have both struggled with a drug problem and been a very few steps away from homelessness. In the first case, forcing me to obtain treatment would have made me angrier with society and more resistant. As it was, I eventually overcame my problem myself and have been 100% clean and sober since the mid 90s).

In the second case, I had just left an abusive relationship and was putting my life back together. Having to deal with well-meaning condescension would have made me feel even more ashamed and victimized. I also overcame this problem myself, and am now about to obtain a Master's degree. I am happily married to an awesome guy who treats me like a valuable human being. We have enough financial resources to keep us afloat for a year if both of suddenly lost our jobs.

I'm glad nobody thought I was worthless or incapable enough to not allow me to work through my problems myself. That would have been humiliating. However, it might have been nice to have some options for assistance that I could have made the *choice* to utilize.

[seabeyond]

67. your last sentences totally jive with how i feel

I'm glad nobody thought I was worthless or incapable enough to not allow me to work through my problems myself. That would have been humiliating. However, it might have been nice to have some options for assistance that I could have made the *choice* to utilize.

i am glad you are sittin nicely now. lessons learned. probably helped you to be where you are

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. As an ex Drug/Alcoholism counselor.

The FIRST thing to do is to recognize that each person is an individual, with individual motivations, personalities, needs, and stories. And, to realize that they are in charge of their own lives, no matter how disastrous their way of coping with it may be to themselves and others.

There is not, and should not be, a single way of treating alcoholics/drug addicts/mentally ill people.

[seabeyond]

50. thank you. this is what bothers me in people that have NOT had

the experience. your post is so very important. why i did what i did, when i did it was important in my journey in MY life. it may not make sense to another single person in the world, but that doesnt matter. it may not be pretty to other people. but my experience had a sense of beauty to me that no one can understnad, but me. there is not a justification for my behavior (i hurt no one, but myself) but there are reasons. i would not give up what i experienced at that time. i did it knowingly. and htough many may look at that time in my life and only see ugliness or pain, or be uncomfortable with my existance, i did NOT feel that while i was smack in the middle of it. tons of lessons, tons of growth and was mine, for my reason.

and i was in charge. that is one of the hugest things i learned in all my mess in that time that has served me well to this day. i absolutely was in charge.

[nam78_two]

86. Yup/nt

[Horse with no Name]

47. There are always those that can't be helped

Sadly that is expected. For whatever reasons, whether it is their own demons, mental disease or addictions.
But someone very wise once told me that if you want to help--Help.
Don't attach so many conditions to the help that it is hard for someone to ask for it or even harder to live with the help you gave.
Do it purely and of your heart to anyone that asks.
I would love to see the buildings that sit unoccupied turned into housing for displaced people. I would love to see counselors and rehab AVAILABLE to those who ask--but not made mandatory so they won't ask.
We have the resources to help lift people up. Very sad we refuse to use them.

[mark414]

52. as someone who has been homeless and befriended many of them

all over this country, both addicts and not, i can say without hesitation that nearly everything that is being done in this country to help the homeless is absolutely wrong.

much too often people take a parent/child approach to the homeless - "oh you poor little thing, i'm gonna come in here and help you and save you!"

it is completely the wrong approach to take. most of the people i know WANT help, and they WANT to get off the streets, but then they go to shelters, to places that are supposed to help them and they get shuffled around, talked down to, treated like ignorant children and they say fuck it, i have too much pride to be treated like this, i'll take the streets over THIS shit. and i've had that experience myself.

i could write pages and pages or talk for hours about this, though i will readily admit that ultimately I DON'T KNOW the answer. someone above said that every individual is just that, and it takes something different for each and every person.

ultimately i just hope that we can figure something out soon...because the numbers are growing.

[boobooday]

56. The best way to help someone who is down and out

Is to give them hope in humankind by reaching out a hand.

The cost-benefit analysis of helping people who find themselves in these situations makes it clear that we all profit when they have hope, and an opportunity to participate in society.

So I'm with you.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

58. First, legalize all drugs.

How many billions of dollars will that free up in law enforcement? Prisons will empty out and violent crime due to illegal drugs will be eradicated.
Then take all that money to use for treatment and get users back on their feet. It will then open all that money up for education so others won't become addicts.
Then of course the stock market will probably collapse (as the markets are the washing machine for drug money), prisons that are being privatized and a place for cheap labor for corporate America are going to suffer too.......

[Stardust]

63. I agree.

[Greyhound]

66. Funny you should ask this. We had a system that dealt with these

issues very effectively, that is until the sheeple decided that raygunz lies were easier to hear than the truth. The homeless are his legacy to our society, he destroyed in less than a year, what took us over twenty years to create and it was nearly complete.

Was it perfect? Of course not, like the welfare system, it had flaws and failures, but how often did you have to step over people sleeping in the street in 1980? How many crazies screaming at the invisible people did you encounter on a day to day basis?

Like every other embarrassing failure this country has endured, this is a product of the Re:puke: party and its supporters.

[Cleita]

77. Amen to that.

The reforms you mentioned grew out of the Great Depression and we were on our way to taking care of all our citizens when he came along and started to dismantle and destroy the system that worked very well.

[shanti]

68. the problems is...

that many of the addicts ALSO have mental problems. there's no easy solution to the problem of mental illness, and to add addiction to the mix?

:shrug:

[neebob]

70. Um, legalize drugs and shift the law enforcement budget

over to social services?

Eliminate all the fucking forms and other hoops that people have to jump through to access them?

Provide places people that could just like walk into and get food, housing, rehab, medical/dental care, psychological counseling, clothing, and job placement assistance without having to demonstrate their deservingness and having judgments passed all over them?

Or, if you're not comfortable legalizing drugs, how about doing the same thing by taxing churches?

Reigning in the credit card and insurance companies and other predatory businesses would also go a long way toward containing the problem. And there's always raising the minimum wage.

Those of you who don't like my ideas can just be glad I'm not in charge.

[Jcrowley]

73. Nice

I think you did just fine and then some.

If not for the turn of a friendly card...

"While there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." -Eugene Debs

[leftofthedial]

71. they should be moved ot the sidewalk

so they don't impede any repuke SUVs.

[mdmc]

72. hummer owners are people too

:kick:

[IdaBriggs]

79. This is a tough one. Two of my sisters messed up their lives

and that of the children they produced by getting involved with drug addicts. In my family experience, these people would say or do whatever it took to get their fix. It was nothing personal -- it was about the drugs. One of the men finally died of a heroin overdose (to everyone's guilty relief), while the other is in jail for molesting a child.

When one of my sisters kept coming home crying about how horrible everything was (after leaving him, and going back, and leaving him, and going back REPEATEDLY) my mother finally lowered the boom. "He stole your rent money? Your television is missing AGAIN? Welcome to the life you've picked. The only one I'm feeling sorry for is your baby -- she isn't the one picking this type of lifestyle. She's welcome here anytime; you aren't. Now, go back, and enjoy what you're creating." It was harsh, but it was the wake up call my sister needed; she got rid of the man, and no one is missing him. If my mother had continued to "enable her" I am confident that the drama would have continued on longer than it did.

In the meantime, one of my nieces from "the other sister" has become a heroin addict "just like daddy" -- she lies, she steals, and I'm told she's supported herself as a prostitute the summer before last. This is an unbelievably heartbreaking situation, as she had an incredible amount of potential, all thrown away on drugs. She isn't allowed unsupervised in anyone's home (due to the thieving), and Evil Grandma has told her she can't stay with her unless she can pass a home administered drug test (meaning "pee in a cup"). She hasn't asked to stay since, as she can't pass it, and frankly, that makes the rest of us feel safer; her behavior is "erratic" to put it politely when she's using, and her judgment can best be described as "dangerous" to those around her.

So, whose responsibility is she? Her parents are both dead (and her mother used to supply her with drugs). She's now twenty-one, has no marketable skills, her work ethic is riddled with problems (to say it politely), and once she gets her drug problems under control, she will require YEARS of therapy before she can function in society. In the meantime, she will use anyone who looks sympathetic or supportive. When she's using, if she gets money for food, she shoots up with it. Its not personal; its just addiction.

As a "good liberal," what do I want to see happen to her? Frankly, I'd like to see her lose her "rights" as a competent adult, and be "forced" into "real" treatment with appropriate follow up and therapy. That won't happen until after she's been in the jail system a time or two, but I can assure you as a family member, I'd support it. And, at the same time, I get the law of "limited resources" -- do we give the funds to help a drug addict, or a mentally ill person who is bi-polar through poor luck? At what point do we shake our heads, acknowledge that my niece's life is simply a terrible tragedy, and leave her lying in the street, hoping and praying that one day she'll wake up to the knowledge that she's finally hit "rock bottom" and wants to change?

You tell me. So far I've concentrated my efforts on PREVENTING the problems with other people by helping to keep illegal drugs out of the hands of minors. I am at a complete loss as to how grown adults who are comfortable with their own misery can be "forced" to change. I guess for them the devil they know is better than the one they don't -- coping with the "real world" without the crutch of illegal drugs.

[BlooInBloo]

80. I'm ok with forcing treatment on them.... we already do that...

... it's called "involuntary committment" or something like that. I want everyone being productive - and that ain't it. lol

[JVS]

81. Where you see hopeless addiction, I see soylant!

;-)

[hsher]

89. I love you

Ahh, green

[Moloch]

93. Do what they did in Bumfights.

That seems to be the only employment option for these addicts and drunks. Most of them are there because of their own actions, I say let them fight each other and amuse the rest of us.

[readmoreoften]

94. If I remember correctly, only 30% of the homeless in NYC have substance...

abuse problems. I think the main issue is poverty, lack of family help, disability, and psychiatric illness.