I can't believe some DUers are upset over the NJ SC decision!

[WI_DEM]

which maintains that gay couples deserve the same rights as straight couples. I've seen a thread saying that this is the dreaded "October Surprise" because of its timing and because the Chief Justice was appointed by a Republican. I saw another thread saying that "Menendez is a goner" because of this.

The court did the right thing and I see no reason to wait until after the election to affirm that a minority should have the same rights as the majority.

The law itself is somewhat limited, for instance it is affirming civil unions not gay marriage. And as for Menendez and Kean, they both support civil unions.

Also, if the court is like the US Supreme Court the entire court, and not only the Chief Justice would vote on when to release the decision.

Whatever--they did the right thing.

[Der Blaue Engel]

1. Some DUers are misguided

and some are just trolls. (Did I say that out loud?)

[Rex]

2. Yes you did and I was going to say the same thing.

:thumbsup:

[Solly Mack]

34. "Misguided" is way too polite of a description

[Occulus]

44. Precisely. See below. n/t

[geek tragedy]

3. Well, this was exactly what Karl Rove was hoping for.

I'm very happy for my brothers and sisters in New Jersey who have a greater shot at justice and happiness now.

However, the price may be very steep--it could cost us control of Congress.

[Der Blaue Engel]

12. "It could cost us control of Congress"

Nah, it's just all those "pigmented" candidates we keep allowing to run for office.

Or was it fetus murderers? Hard to say, really.

And I know I'm going to have to add this, which is just sad: :sarcasm:

[geek tragedy]

14. Just watch how the GOP base and our worthless media

react to this story. It'll bump Iraq from the public debate. And it will get the fundie base to the polls just like it did in 2004..

[Der Blaue Engel]

21. Not buying it n/t

[Occulus]

22. You just said "get to the back of the fucking bus, faggot"

And in almost as many words.

Your handle is literally appropriate.

[Occulus]

25. wrong post

oops

[geek tragedy]

29. No, I didn't. I believe that GLBT men and women should

be able to marry whomever they want (so long as it isn't a blood relative).

However, I know that the Republicans depend on distraction and homophobia--and this is fuel for that.

I support the decision insofar that it grants rights "equal to marriage"--though I would extend it and get rid of the "separate but equal" language.

I'm just so damn cynical about the idiotic values voters and the stupid fuckers in the media.

[Occulus]

36. By saying it'll cost us Congress, that IS what you're saying

Just like when my parents told me I'll end up with HIV because I'm gay. SAME. THING.

Look, you really, REALLY don't want to push me on this. I have far far FAR more experience with this form of discrimination than you EVER will, and I know every last one of the code words and phrases for what they are.

You just told us to get to the back of the bus or Dems will lose the election. Because of this decision.

Because. Of. Those. Fags.

That's what you said, it's what you meant, it's what you were thinking, and I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to take it any more. YOU are the problem. Not me. Not my desire to marry who I love.

The problem is YOU.

[geek tragedy]

38. It was a good decision. It is a worthy cause, and I won't criticize

anyone for seeking justice.

I'm not advocating that Democrats throw gays overboard, or that they oppose this ruling.

But, there does need to be a plan to deal with this. There's an election in two weeks, and pretending that the GOP isn't supported by a vast mob of semi-literate homophobes won't make the problem go away.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

47. My wife can't have children, so I'm not sure that

your term is accurate.

[pnwmom]

59. That word is a slur. But I'm sure you know that.

[geek tragedy]

95. They do, but they're pissed so they feel entitled to

throw slurs around like that.

Nothing that a little maturity can't fix.

[cboy4]

75. Good for you!!!!!!

:thumbsup:

[Sapphocrat]

76. And dykes, kgf. You forgot dykes.

Because. Of. Those. Fags. And. Dykes.

[cboy4]

74. What the hell are trying to infer by "as long as it isn't a blood relative"

:wtf:

I think it's safe to assume gay people are not rallying across the country to marry relatives.

I can't vouch for your family, however, for you to have needed to include incest as an option. :eyes:

[mduffy31]

78. Actually that is written into marriage laws for straight couples

In Wisconsin you have to affirm that you are not a 1st cousin, or if you are you are beyond child bearing age. I don't think that the poster was trying to insinuate anything. I think you are just trying to pick a fight, maybe it is just me.

[cboy4]

79. Excuse me, but when you are constantly hearing gay sex compared

to bestiality......you become a little sensitive to bullshit like this.

And furthermore, now is not the best time to provoke me.

Just a little warning.

[mduffy31]

80. ....

Forget it, its not worth it.

[geek tragedy]

93. I was merely being overly precise in my language.

But, people are looking for an excuse to be offended here, so I'll just leave it at that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. Fox News isn't even covering it and that's the most worthless media around

*yawn*

[geek tragedy]

35. I REALLY hope it stays that way. After everything I've seen

over the past 6 years, I'm just incredibly cynical about our political system, our media, and the American voter--especially those fucking "values voters" who worry more about men kissing than children starving.

[Occulus]

41. Your cynicism hurts me and people like me

I got depressed just READING your post.

Have you no CLUE how bad it hurts to see people on "your side" (which you obviously aren't, no matter your meaningless platitudes) say these sorts of things?

Of course not, because you're a breeder, and you already HAVE the rights I don't, so WHAT DO YOU CARE, right?

I'm done being polite or nice or anything of the sort. If you aren't in full support of the right to get married as it applies to people like me, YOU. DON'T. SUPPORT. ME.

PERIOD.

(That DOES mean NOT expressing cleverly-veiled "lament".)

[geek tragedy]

49. I DO SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF GAY PEOPLE TO GET MARRIED.

Comprende?

[Chulanowa]

60. I believe this is his issue:

You seem to believe that it would have been better if this decision hadn't been made - Not because of any belief that it's wrong - But simply for political expediency.

You may be for gay rights, but it looks like you'd just as soon throw them under the bus if it would increase Democratic chances of winning by 1%

[geek tragedy]

72. These kinds of decision are not only welcome, but necessary.

There just would have been less potential backlash two weeks after the election.

[Chulanowa]

99. I'm willing to throw the election if the "cost" is...

Allowing others their rights.

[geek tragedy]

100. As long as people are aware of the costs, i.e. Bush getting

to appoint dozens more anti-gay judges.

[pnwmom]

56. Anyone who uses the word "breeder" like that has his or her own issues.

It's no more acceptable than to call a gay person, like my father, a fag. And he agreed with me, by the way, that the timing of the MA did affect the outcome of the fall elections.

I'm hoping that the situation is different now, but there are a lot of conservative Catholics in NJ. I'm worried about Menendez, who is in a very tight race.

I don't think that this Court decision will make a difference, since it left the application of its decision to the Legislature. But I wish the 2 legislators who immediately announced a gay marriage bill had waited two more weeks -- till one day after the election -- to make their announcement. I think it would have been a better political decision. Just my opinion.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

81. Menendez and Kean have the same stance on the issue.

If anything, it will be the corruption smears against Menendez that will cost him. Neither candidate supports gay marriage. Both support civil unions.

By the way, I see you live in Washington. How did you become such an expert on the political climate within New Jersey?

[pnwmom]

83. I grew up in New Jersey and I still have family and friends there.

Kean says he is for amending the NJ constitution to prohibit gay marriage.

Is that Menendez's stand, too?

On second thought, even if they have the same position on that issue, we're still better off with Menendez. Because if he loses, our chance at controlling the Senate drops considerably -- and the Senate is where Federal judicial appointments are approved.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

85. Menendez supports civil unions, as does Kean.

I agree that we're better off with Menendez. Even my Republican family is voting for him, as we're originally from Hudson County and my parents personally worked with him when he was still a Union City politician.

That being said, I'm gay, live in red Morris County and half my friends are Republicans (albeit disgruntled ones). If the democrats lose, it will be due to corruption allegations, not the gay marriage issue, which is a fairly moot point.

[pnwmom]

88. I hope you're right.

So you think all those Italian and Irish Catholics don't care about gay marriage? I would like to think so, but it wasn't my experience. When I left NJ, Opus Dei was moving in.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. I lived in Madison for almost two years.

Strong Republican town basically owned by a couple Italian families. Gay people started moving in. Couples buying houses, etc. They were really welcomed. I've been to a few of my friends parties that have been a bunch of NYC gays with the older Italian neighbors. Everyone mingling and getting along. Attitudes are definitely changing in NJ. Also, I suggest you check out the thread I posted in GD. That's the commercial airing on NJ stations in support of gay marriage. We won same-sex pension benefits for country workers due to that woman's public plight.

[pnwmom]

90. Good for NJ then.

Maybe I didn't have to move to Seattle.

;-)

[donheld]

92. I totally disagree

Calling someone a breeder is not the same as calling a gay person any of the things we get called. Do you really believe any straight person cares or is offended by being called a breeder. IMHO that's plain silly.

[geek tragedy]

94. Just like white people don't mind being called 'crackers.'

It is a derogatory term, and was intended as such by that poster, who was on a full-blown emotional rant.

Your humble opinion is flat-out wrong.

[donheld]

101. I'm very white -- you or anybody else can call me cracker all day long

Doesn't bother me in the least. I'm sure few straights care if they're called breeders. This is the silliest arguement i've seen in a long time. :eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

[geek tragedy]

103. I wouldn't be so hasty to impute your own personal

indifference to slurs to everyone else.

It is a term of disparagement. That's how it is intended. Now, people can choose to not be offended, but that doesn't mean that the person using the term didn't mean to cause offense.

[ronnykmarshall]

23. Yeah damn them gays ...

what a load.

[geek tragedy]

37. Who's blaming the gays for seeking justice? I'm not.

I'm just worried that the timing plays right into the reichwingers plan.

[Occulus]

43. In other words, damn those FUCKING faggots for ruining the election for us

And you can't prove otherwise, can you? You can't prove that wasn't what you meant.

Here's a hint: keep your fucking mouth closed on gay issues from now on. We REALLY don't need the support of people like you.

[ronnykmarshall]

45. Right on my brother!

[LostinVA]

46. You're completely right -- I'm sick of it, too

I'm especially sick of it being puked all over DU by "misguided" posters.

[geek tragedy]

48. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I am not blaming gays for anything. I support their efforts to get their rights through the court system.

Got that? I'm not blaming gays here at all.

Sorry, I'll just pretend that 2004 never happened.

[nashville_brook]

51. eggsactly. it's heartbreaking.

[WindRavenX]

71. you ROCK

:yourock: :yourock:

[AtomicKitten]

91. It's long overdue justice that can't come a moment too soon.

America needs to grow up. Suppressing progress is feeding the ignorance and bigotry.

[Kahuna]

65. Uh no. This is NJ. If Menendez doesn't win it won't be because

of this. We're more enlightened in NJ than the rest of the country. :)

[pnwmom]

84. Oh please. It's NJ

not Nirvana.

I used to live there and have plenty of connections. It's a good place but the state has frequently swung to the red side. Your memory can't be very long.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

86. She's not saying it can't swing red.

She's saying that if it does swing red, it won't be because of the gay issue.

[pnwmom]

87. If the two candidates are only a few votes apart -- which happens --

then it will only take a few conservative voters changing their minds about staying home (after the Foley thing) and deciding to vote after all, to make a difference.

ANY issue can be the one that swings a close election.

[ourbluenation]

69. BUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLL SHIIIIIIIIIT! Most americans support equal

rights for gays. Most New Jersians too. This will not be a problem.

[geek tragedy]

97. Were you around in 2004? Just because we're right on this

issue doesn't mean that we're in the majority.

[Lasher]

102. That's not true according to polls, ourbluenation.

Continued Opposition to Gay Marriage

By a 56%-35% margin, a majority of Americans continues to oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally. These figures are largely unchanged over the past several years.

Opposition to gay marriage is most pronounced among older Americans, while younger people express relatively high levels of support for legalizing same-sex marriage. Among those 65 and older, three-in-four (73%) oppose legalizing gay marriage, while more than half (53%) of adults under the age of 30 favor this position.

Republicans are relatively united in opposition to gay marriage, with 83% of conservative Republicans and 66% of moderate and liberal Republicans holding this view. The issue splits the Democratic Party, however, with two-thirds of liberal Democrats (66%) in favor of gay marriage and 59% of conservative and moderate Democrats opposed. Independents are evenly divided (46% in favor, 45% opposed).

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=150#5

Poll: Most Oppose Gay Weddings

When a question is asked without reference to a possible constitutional amendment, even more oppose legalizing gay marriage. Sixty-two percent of Americans oppose a law that would allow homosexual couples to marry and obtain the same legal rights as other married couples; just 30% favor gay marriage.

The public seems to have become even less receptive toward gay marriage in the past seven months. Although a majority has always opposed gay marriage, last July, 40% said they would favor allowing homosexual couples to legally marry, as did 34% in December. That figure is now 30%.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/24/national/main601828.shtml

[Zhade]

73. Why do you jump to blame the oppressed?

Why not rightly blame the HOMOPHOBIC BIGOTED ASSHOLES who hate us queers so much?

Jumping right to "the fags will cost us the election" - which is what you're basically saying - is verrrrrry telling, and makes us wonder if your first sentence is just horseshit.

So why do you go right to blaming US? Hmmm?

[geek tragedy]

98. I am blaming the homophobic assholes.. I am not blaming

the victims.

If you can find words of mine to the contrary, feel free to quote them.

[eleny]

4. Well, Dems can just shout "States Rights!"

And keep shouting it.

States rights is what the Republicans like, isn't it? So now they've got N.J. practicing it.

[BootinUp]

5. who ya talking bout?

I think it was a great decision actually. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. I am THRILLED!

Who here is upset over the decision? I must have missed that. How is this a bad thing???*&^%$

[Rex]

9. The Repukes will keep their house and senate seats over this.

Don't ask me, that is what some DUrs are saying. Maybe one will stop by and tell you exactly HOW that will happen over this decision with two weeks left. But I doubt it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. OH BULLSHIT!

That's NOT going to happen! NJ leans Liberal.

[AllieB]

18. But Kean is giving Menendez a run for his money.

n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

31. Kean just pissed off the Italians.

Incredibly stupid move.

[AllieB]

53. In a state with a large Italian population

that is a very bad thing to do. I hope Memnedez capitalizes on it!

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. So. NJ leans Democratic.

What does gay rights have to do with the Kean/Menendez race? If NJ leans Democratic...doesn't that mean most people in NJ would SUPPORT rights for gays?

[AllieB]

62. Where in my post did I mention gay rights?

I just mentioned that Kean is competitive with Menendez, which is very surprising in a very blue state. I'm happy that NJ has followed my state, Massachusetts, in allowing equal rights for gays. How's Illinois doing in that regard?

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. Sorry. The subject of the thread is NJ gay rights.

I thought you were speaking out against the ruling by insinuating this was bad because the race was so close. Sorry if I insulted you.:hi:

As far as I know, Illinois doesn't have a gay marriage/civil unions law, but we do have this:

Illinois becomes 16th state with gay rights law


Tim Pierce hopes he never has to depend on a new Illinois antidiscrimination law protecting gays and lesbians. But if he does, he's glad the protection is there. The 39-year-old university instructor and his partner live in Oswego—a town about 40 miles west of Chicago and one of several in the state that didn't have laws protecting gays and lesbians. That is, until now.

On Sunday a state law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity became a reality, nearly a year after Gov. Rod Blagojevich signed it into law and more than three decades since state lawmakers first debated it. "I'm hoping people won't need to rely on the law," said Pierce, who also is the president of a gay rights organization in Joliet. "But in instances where someone is denied housing or a job, they have an avenue to take that they couldn't before."

Illinois joins 15 other states that have laws banning discrimination based on sexual orientation. Of those 16, Illinois is one of only seven states where the law protects transgender people, according to the Washington, D.C.–based National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.<snip>


We're a BLUE State. If the gay marriage/civil unions issue ever came up for a vote, it would pass.


Contact: Joe King, Office of Public Affairs
[phone]

February 17, 2005

Two-thirds of Illinois favors rights for same-sex couples
DeKALB, IL – While about one-third of Illinois residents may welcome President Bush's recent recommitment to a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, the remaining two-thirds are open to some sort of official recognition of same-sex couples.

According to the 2005 Illinois Policy Survey, conducted by Northern Illinois University , 31 percent of those surveyed supported giving gays and lesbians the right to marry, while 34 percent supported the concept of civil unions. The remaining 29 percent opposed any legal recognition of homosexual couples.

“While much of the media attention focuses on those calling to ban gay marriage, these results are pretty typical of what nationwide polls are finding. Most Americans favor some sort of formal recognition of gay and lesbian couples,” said Barbara Burrell, associate director of the NIU Public Opinion Laboratory which conducted the survey in November and December of last year. The survey, now in its 21 st year, is a joint effort of the NIU's Center for Governmental Studies and the Public Opinion Laboratory. It was comprised of responses from 1,309 adults across Illinois and has a confidence interval of +/- 3 percent.

The level of support for legal recognition of gay couples varied somewhat by across the state, but dropped below 50 percent in only two of six regions -- southern Illinois at 44 percent and northern Illinois (exclusive of Chicago, its suburbs and the collar counties) at 47 percent. <snip>

http://www.niu.edu/PubAffairs/presskits/ips2005/marriagerights.html

[Rex]

19. Yeah I called BS too.

It is a case of calling anything coming out now as the 'Doom of the Dems'. :eyes:

I'm going to start counting the 'ways' with 13 days left before the elections.

[geek tragedy]

17. Because gay-bashing worked in 2004, and our media is filled

with superficial morons who would rather run with a 'juicy' story like two men getting married rather than the debacle in Iraq.

[Rex]

20. They've shot themselves in the foot on this one.

With the Foley scandal, Repukes went overboard to equate what he did with homosexual behavior. Now, 2 weeks out, they can't just take it all back. People in their own base and core voting block are going to equate Foley with anything new that comes out and unless Foxnews keeps labeling him a Dems, then it will only hurt the GOP next month and for years to come.

They fucked up and continue to fuck up on that one, like Iraq and everything else the GOP does.

[geek tragedy]

26. I certainly hope you're right.

But, no one ever went broke understimating the American voter or the media.

[Rex]

32. This is true.

Hope either lives or dies with us.

[nashville_brook]

52. wow... good point.

[stepnw1f]

57. Well Then... you Blame the Democratic Party for This?

Here's a scenario for you to think about: Interracial couples win a battle in court today... fill in the blank....

You see this as a weakness for the Democratic Party because... Shit... I see this as a strength for gay couples, which really has nothing to do with dems vs. republicans.

If it does then you have to fight for what is right.... civil rights should not compromised for politics... we need strength, not despair.

[Kahuna]

66. Bull! This is NJ! Not OHIO! New Jerseyians know how to

compartmentalize issues. This is a non starter for NJ voters. Relax!

[lonestarnot]

96. OH DOUBLE BULLSHIT!

[LostinVA]

10. Several threads

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. That's just sad.

:(

Now gays have to take this shit here??? at DU??? Sheesh!:grr:

[LostinVA]

24. Yup... some posters were pre-emptively blaming us for a lost in Nov.

Kinda like in 2004 after the elections. Great, huh? We had a great civil rights victory today, and some people had to piss on it as soon as we began to cheer...

[LeftCoast]

82. It's been a real barrel o'laughs around here lately

Lots of this kinda crap been going on...

:sourface:

[Warren DeMontague]

7. "Some" DUers would chuck gays, pro-choicers, and atheists under the bus

because they think that's the way to endear the party to the all-powerful "Values Voter"- you know, the people who made Terri Schiavo such a winning issue for the GOP. :eyes:

[a la izquierda]

8. I jumped around with joy!

I grew up in NJ and I am so proud of the NJ Supreme Court. My mom and her girlfriend of 20 years still live there, and though they may never marry, I am super stoked that they can and that nobody, not a damn person, can tell them they can't. Yippeee, happy day!

:toast:
But alas, here in Oklahoma, hell will freeze over with the corpses of fundies before gay marriage is ever legalized.

[Nikki Stone1]

11. I agree. The decision was a good one and it's about damned time.

In fact, with all of the page scandals hitting the news, this decision might actually alienate the Fundamentalist base and prevent them from going to the polls.

:kick:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

13. I didn't see where anyone was upset about the decison - more the timing.

Unless there's some thread I didn't see.

The person mistakenly thought the timing was due to supporters of gay marriage - but it is the timing of the NJ Supreme Court. I'm sure this case had been going on for some time and the Supreme Court chose to wrap things up right before the election. Coulda been a coincidence on their part.

[LostinVA]

27. One really insulting thread, one other one that was borderline

And, they meant what they said.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

33. The Civil Rights Act cost the Democrats the South for a generation.

Was it worth it? Yes. But we do need to be aware of the political dynamics at play.

I'm thrilled for what's going on in New Jersey, but it isn't homophobic to worry about how Rove et al will be able to exploit the stupid sheep values voters and the mindless airheads in the media.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

39. I've noticed the same thing from time to time. They must just "chime in"

a lot. A while back there were a bunch of people posting "Don't vote Democratic" Some were probably just people who are to the left of the Dem Party - but I suspect that there were some who were really trolls who were trying to stir up trouble.

[pnwmom]

55. I don't think this will cost us the control of Congress.

But I think the timing of the MA decision, and especially its aftermath (the other jurisdictions that tried to jump in afterwards) did cause a significant backlash, and helped to turn a number of close races to the Republican side.

The NJ decision is different because 1) the initial shock to the country (from the Massachusetts decision) is over, and the sky hasn't fallen in, and 2) the Court has left it up to the legislature to decide the issue of whether the marriage law is amended or whether a new civil union law is constructed.

On the other hand, thinking politically, I wish those 2 NJ legislators had waited for two weeks to announce their new marriage bill. Why take a chance on bringing a few more religious conservatives to the polls and hurting Menendez' chances.

(For those who aren't aware, what NJ lacks in fundie Protestants, it makes up for in conservative Catholics.)

[guinivere]

40. How the hell could anyone be upset over this?

They absolutely did the right thing. And it's about time the ball got rolling with this.

[gully]

50. I think Foley destroyed the RW gay bait

personally.

[stepnw1f]

54. Wishy-Washy Folks in Our Party

You either stand for civil rights or you don't.... These folks would rather we collectively not stand up for people's rights. It's a sad thing to behold, but it happens in politics....

besides... we are not even collectively responsible for this decision, so there really isn't going to be a "fallout" for the Democratic Party unless folks on our side wimp out! No instead, the brave individuals who brought this case to the courts and fought like hell are uniquely responsible. I am ashamed some prefer political expendiency over civil liberties and hope they will come around and see strength instead of weakness...

[The Count]

61. I don't get it.

People in NJ elected some of the most progressist people these past years. Menendez runs kick-ass adds linking Kean to bush.

[Zhade]

64. There's a bigot claiming our orientation is a "lifestyle choice"...

...on another thread.

There are homophobes and bigots here; they usually seem to be in denial that they are such.

[Malikshah]

67. What's hard to believe... smokers one day, gun issues the next

gay issues... right on time.

Folks love to dredge up the inside the beltway mojo and smoke it for all it's worth.

Next issues:

Religious rights.
Freedome of Speech for bigots.
Paula Yates and post-partum depression.

Lather.
Rinse.
Repeat.

[Bigmack]

68. Fundies are generally dumbshits....

... but I think some of them are starting to "get it". (I hate that term - it's mostly used by the rightwingnuts. But it fits in this case.)

Dumbya and the Repubs have had total control for years, and abortion is still legal, nobody is hunting gays like quail, kids are still fucking like weasels,and the border is leaking brown Catholics into the country like a sieve.

I'll bet none of the fundies have read Kuo's book, but I'll bet the jungle drums - or prayer circles or whatever - have passed the word the the WH really laughs at them.

What somebody does in New Jersey won't change The Church Lady's vote.

She's fed up with politics and pissed at the Repubs.

[bullwinkle428]

70. Operation Hide the Gays seems to be on some people's minds

as being essential to victory... :eyes:

[marmar]

77. Yeah, I'm not buying the whole "Menendez is a goner" thing...

The Repug demonization of same-sex marriage for use as a wedge issue has lost much of its bite in the blue states. It's Iraq, the economy and unchecked corruption. Even for people I know who aren't in favor of equal marriage, it's a nonfactor as an issue for them in this year's election.