Being gay and being black are different, and no sane gay says anyting different

[dsc]

No gay person would say that being gay and being black are exactly the same. If a person is black, all of his or her relatives are likelty to be black as well. Because of that any disadvantages to being black have been suffered for generations. Gays on the other hand, are likely to have mostly straight relatives and thus any disadvantage isn't suffered in previous generations. That is a huge advantage for gay people provided they don't get disowned. It also is much easier for a much larger number of gay people to pass a straight than it is for a black person to pass as white. Again, that is a huge advantage toward not losing priviledges.

Conversely, gay people grow up devoid of any ties to other gay people in may circumstances. The ability of gays to pass a straight often means that we have to tell even our closest relatives that we are, indeed, gay. Often, though thankfully less often now, gays who tell their families they are gay end up losing the love of their families. Some gays are so fearful of telling their families they commit suicide instead. Gays who pass as straight do so at great personal cost. We must watch what we say, what we do, and even who we look at.

I wouldn't presume to say which is harder. Frankly I am willing to conceed that it is harder to be black. But that doesn't make gays less deserving of the full measure of rights. Gays and blacks both have a common enemy. The party currently in power hates us both. They will gay bait when that is necessary and race bait when it is. Instead of contests trying to figure out who Republicans hate more, we should be spending our time defeating our common enemy. Neither of us have totally easy lives. Both groups have a great deal of work before we are really experiencing the full measure of rights that non minority straights have.

I end this post with a memory from my visit to the Civil Rights Museam in Memphis. One of the items that are on display in that museam are guide books from the 1950's of places where blacks could travel safely. Any gay person seeing that immediately thinks of similar guidebooks still in use by gays today. Few gay people will venture to any place with which they are unfamiliar without using such a guidebook. I actually had such a book on my visit to Memphis. It honestly hadn't occured to me that such guides existed for blacks but upon seeing one it immediately clicked as to the need for it.

Being black and being gay aren't the same. But our enemy sure is. We shouldn't forget that.

[Redstone]

1. Well-said. Well-said, indeed.

Redstone

[nofurylike]

2. divisive and simplistic. eom

[dsc]

3. Can you point out what divisive and simplistic things I said?

[nofurylike]

5. here's a suggestion: refer to queers who can 'pass.' those

who would not, or could not, in the past, were murdered, among other *much worse* things. some places, still true.

but see, so were/are blacks.

"sane" enough for you?


it would take treatises...


peace

[dsc]

8. We aren't blacks

We weren't dragged to these shores against our will and neither were our ancestors. We aren't dozens of times more likely to be in jail than our straight counterparts. We don't have about 1/10 of the net worth of our straight counterparts. Yes, gays who don't pass have often been killed. It is different not better, not worse but different.

[nofurylike]

10. you don't know the history. is okay. sorry i posted. bye. eom

[nofurylike]

12. not "sane" i guess. but then, not "gay" either. lesbian. no

need you bother with those who don't meet your measure of "sane."

goodnight.


peace

[nofurylike]

4. agreed: "But our enemy sure is. We shouldn't forget that."eom

[me b zola]

7. I don't find the OP divisive or simplistic

I'm not gay or Black, but those who wish to keep equal rights away from either of those groups--or others--are enemies of the Constitution.

MLK and Coretta Scott King both understood that until all of us are protected by the Constitution none of us are protected by the Constitution. Our lives, and the life of this nation, are all interconnected, it is that simple--or complex.

[nofurylike]

9. "until all ...protected...." exactly. so, why contrast? why

compare? why even pose the 'question'?

and why the arrogant judgment that any who don't agree with the analysis are not "sane"?

so, you and i agree. you and the OP apparently don't.


peace

[pnwmom]

6. Very good analysis, dsc

I have often thought about this, too, and had discussions about it, because one of my father's closest friends is both black and gay. On the one hand, African Americans live their lives with the support of their families. On the other hand, they can rarely choose just to disappear -- i.e., to pass. And passing is a two sided coin -- you can hide, but you pay for that dearly.

[Bluebear]

11. 'they can rarely choose just to disappear -- i.e., to pass.'

How do gays "pass"? Try being 40 and unmarried, or 50 and living with a same sex partner. Or 10 and unathletic or 13 and 'artistic'.

[dsc]

16. I didn't say everyone could pass

but surely more people can pass as straight than as white. I am 38 and unmarried. I also am about the least athletic human you are going to find (I had a .000 average in t-ball for my first 23 at bats). To top it off, I have sung high second or first tenor since age 15. But even I am assumed to be straight until proven otherwise. I have known precisely one black person who wasn't assumed to be black on first sight. I am not saying I didn't know others, I might well have, but I didn't know that I knew any.

[Bluebear]

17. I have no idea what your whole point is.

Why does there have to be a contest on who is more oppressed?

[dsc]

19. Have you read the threads here lately?

If you don't think this has been an issue the last few days then I think you haven't read them.

[Bluebear]

22. See below, I have read them and am offended in kind. nt

[pnwmom]

30. Gay men frequently "pass" by marrying women.

And there ARE artistic straight boys, and it is quite possible to be 40, straight, and unmarried.

[Bluebear]

40. Possible. But generally impossible for people not to "suspect". nt

[Ms. Toad]

160. I pass all the time

without even trying, and I've been out for 25+ years.

I nearly always have to explicitly come out in order to avoid passing. There have even been several times I have had to come out to people who are so oblivious that they have not noticed I have always referred to my spouse using female pronouns.

[pnwmom]

47. You're wrong about that. No one

in the straight world ever suspected my father ( including my mother, for years).

And through him I learned about quite a number of other married men whom no one would have "suspected."

I'm also on a list-serve with a number of children, like myself, who had no idea about their parent's sexuality until one or the other suddenly came out.

It happens every day.

[beam me up scottie]

62. If they're allowed to be themselves, most COULDN'T pass. Nor would they HAVE to.

Imagine a world where they wouldn't have to come out because they'd never have been in to begin with.

[pnwmom]

63. I'm not defending the situation where gays feel a need

to pass. Far from it. It certainly didn't do either of my parents any good, except insofar as several children were born that they otherwise wouldn't have had. And it didn't help any of us kids to grow up in a family with a dark secret at the center.

But I'm not so sure all gay men, if free to be themselves, would "act" gay. Or what that even means (except for the stereotyped images we see on TV.) My father's outward presentation never changed even after more than 20 years living openly with his partner. For example, he's never had any "fashion sense," neither when he was passing, or openly gay.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Who said anything about "acting" gay?

I'm talking about expressing themselves, dating, little things like holding hands in the park for Christ's sake.

I'm also talking about big things, like getting married.

Do you think it would be possible for them to "pass" if they did any or all of those things?

[pnwmom]

68. Of course not. You can't pass and be openly gay

at the same time.

But the point the poster was making is that gays have a choice to pass (whether or not that's good for them is another matter) and very few African Americans do.

[beam me up scottie]

82. No, the "point" was trying to justify comparing one minority to another.

And it's just as sickening now as it was the first time I read this thread.

No, actually, it's worse.

[Ms. Toad]

161. It's actually quite easy for some of us

to pass and be openly gay. Since I am openly gay, I wish your comment were true - it would really make my life easier not to have to explicitly come out to every new acquaintance I make.

[Mythsaje]

91. I was an artistic straight boy...

A writer from grade school on.

And I know a straight guy who's 36 and a virgin. He's a major geek. But he's straight.

[pnwmom]

93. In fifth grade, one of my daughter's

friends, for his class project, chose to design a skirt or a dress (I forget). That certainly made me wonder, although in other respects he seemed like a "typical" boy -- just a lot smarter than average. Anyway, a couple years later the hormones kicked in and . . . let's just put it this way. He'd rather get under a skirt than make one.

Very bright boys often don't fit in, or at least they're not one of the average guys, whether they're gay or straight.

My brother is another. Very bright, quite sensitive, open-minded, shy, and unmarried -- but no question-about-it, unambiguously straight.

[Mythsaje]

103. The prejudice against gays comes down on a lot of people

including odd, creative, intelligent boys. And tomboys, when you get right down to it. I've heard it used as an insult aimed at athletic or otherwise physical girls.

It's always been a handy way to torment kids who may or may not even understand the implication. I know I didn't when I was young.

[pnwmom]

104. You're right.

Both straight and gay boys get called names like "sissy," and for the same reasons. Whenever their behavior deviates from the "norm."

[mitchtv]

58. hahaha

almost all of the above

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

18. her and others

I think we need to understand that it is highly offensive, even to blacks who tend to support us, when they think we are saying being gay and being black is the exact same thing. The black experience in America is unique. I think we need to be sure to both understand that and enunciate that understanding. The struggle is similar but the experience is different.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

26. We are, on average, better off financially

at least than blacks. Since gays are majority white, just like the nation, we are going to, on average, better off financially than blacks. That doesn't make us less deserving of rights but the truth is the truth. I don't believe for a minute that gays are better off financially than straights but statistically we are financially better off than blacks.

[Bluebear]

28. And so???

You are parroting the Concerned Women talking points. What is the point? Why create a laundry liast of differences if not to divide us?

[dsc]

37. It isn't a talking point, if it is true.

The CWA falsely state we are better off than the average person but they are telling the truth if they say we are better off financially than blacks. Again, that isn't to say that every gay is financially better off than every black, but on average, we are. Gays who are white, have white priviledge.

[Bluebear]

39. "Gays who are white, have white priviledge."

Delta Air Lines interviews, circa 90's to unmarried white males: "Why aren't you married?"

Where is the privilege in that situation? If there is a suspicion of being gay and the person is not hired, how is there white privilege?

[dsc]

46. I went to an average, probably below average,

highschool which was nearly all white. I have since taught at two all black and one majority black school. The two all black schools were absolute horror stories in comparision. The majority black school was decent but a school which was two thirds black had a calculus class which was 1/7 black. My AFM (third highest math) courses were over half white (again in a school that was 2/3 black). My Algebra 1a class, the lowest one offered, had one white and 20 blacks. What, other than white priviledge would you call that?

[mondo joe]

31. Big fucking deal, frankly. I'm financially better off than my hetero parents

too -- do I have more rights than they have?

[Bluebear]

35. It really helps having all this money when you can't visit your dying partner.

Because their "family" says you can't. Or you can't make medical decisions for them after being together 25 years because some long lost sister surfaces.

Oh but at least you're "better off financially".

MJ, some people will never understand.

[Mr_Spock]

36. I was infuriated when my aunt could not see her partner of 40 years

when she was in the hospital, or make medical decisions for her. :mad:

[dsc]

49. and many of them go without medical care at all

that is part of being financially worse off. Incidently black life expectancy is still over a decade lower and infant mortality for blacks is over 5 times higher. Posts like yours and this one, are precisely why we shouldn't being saying we have it worse than people x.

[Bluebear]

52. We never started this false argument that we have it "worse"

Honestly why are you preaching to the choir here? Are you intimating that gay people don't realize any of your statistics and have not worked for equality for people of color?

[beam me up scottie]

56. Then why did you say homosexuals have it easier than blacks in your op?

What a hypocrite.

Bluebear is the LAST person you should be criticizing.

[pnwmom]

72. You are distorting what he said.

His position is far more nuanced. After describing how gay people and black people have different struggles (with advantages and disadvantages), he says:

"I wouldn't presume to say which is harder. Frankly I am willing to conceed that it is harder to be black. But that doesn't make gays less deserving of the full measure of rights. Gays and blacks both have a common enemy. The party currently in power hates us both. They will gay bait when that is necessary and race bait when it is. Instead of contests trying to figure out who Republicans hate more, we should be spending our time defeating our common enemy. Neither of us have totally easy lives. Both groups have a great deal of work before we are really experiencing the full measure of rights that non minority straights have."

He's not saying one is harder. Being "willing to concede" does NOT mean he is asserting that something is true; merely that, as a gay white man, he wouldn't try to argue with the idea that it's harder to be straight and black.

How come you're picking out little bits of what he's saying to attack, and not responding to the whole thing?

[beam me up scottie]

74. "Frankly I am willing to conceed that it is harder to be black." That's a DIRECT QUOTE.

I'm not distorting anything.

The op is based on a straw man.

The fact that people keep trying to defend something so shallow and divisive is disgusting.

[pnwmom]

78. It's a direct quote taken out of context and

assumed to mean more than it says.

He first says that he wouldn't presume to say one is harder than the other. Then he says he is "willing to concede." "Willing to concede" does NOT mean "asserting something is true." It means that he wouldn't argue with someone who had that position. Being "willing to concede" a point is NOT equal to asserting a point. As he previously said, he wouldn't presume to say one is harder than the other.

[beam me up scottie]

80. Bullshit. Now you're trying to redefine words?

con·cede (kən-sēd')

v., -ced·ed, -ced·ing, -cedes.

v.tr.
To acknowledge, often reluctantly, as being true, just, or proper; admit. See synonyms at acknowledge.
To yield or grant (a privilege or right, for example).

The op was very clear.

Are you going to tell everyone else who disagreed that they're too dumb to understand what "concede" means, or just me?

[dsc]

119. and if you look up the definitions of the words

willing to conceed doesn't mean believe. People conceed things all the time for the sake of argument. If you are going to disect a post you should at least be accurate as to the meanings of the words.

[beam me up scottie]

138. So now you're trying to claim you didn't argue gays had it easier than blacks?

Your thread is based on a straw man and your entire premise is based on your opinion that blacks have it harder than gays.

You've defended it repeatedly and argued with everyone who disagreed with you. You even accused bluebear of claiming gays had it harder when bb said no such thing.

YOU are the one who said it.

YOU are the one who keeps defending it.

YOU are the one who needs a lesson in the accuracy of words if you actually think I and everyone else who took issue with the op misunderstood your meaning.

We are, on average, better off financially

Gays who are white, have white priviledge.

Incidently black life expectancy is still over a decade lower and infant mortality for blacks is over 5 times higher.

Gays are as likely as straights to have parents who went to college, go to a good high school, and have parents who own their own home. Blacks are much less likely than others to have parents who went to college, go to a decent high school or have parents who own their own homes

dozens of times more likely to go to jail
vs more likely to commit suicide.

In otherwords the fact they jailed gays in the 1970's is unlikely to directly affect me now but the fact they have been jailing black males in huge numbers since (well since who knows when) does affect blacks today

If you didn't think blacks have it harder than homosexuals, you should have edited your post or clarified, you've done neither.

In fact, you've done exactly the opposite.

[dsc]

149. They have it harder in some ways

Sorry, but it is factually true that on average gays are financially better off than blacks. No amount of yelling at me or calling me names is going to alter that simple fact. Conversely, blacks usually aren't faced with telling their family and friends they are black. Again, that is a factually true statement. That isn't to say it is better or worse to be one or the other. Since I am not black I can't say. For the record I know, well enough to ask this to, three black gays and they split 1 to 1 to 1 on the issue. One said being black was harder, one said being lesbian was, and one said he didn't know. Even if all three had agreed the sample size would have negated any use, but since they gave three different answers I have no earthly idea what the sample suggests.

If you either can't or won't read context in quotes I am unsure of how that is my fault. Maybe it is, but I fail to see how. Had people challenged me in the other direction I would have defended that way too. No one did. But again, I guess that is my fault as well since apparently nothing is the reader's fault.

[beam me up scottie]

150. Look, I'm not calling you names or yelling at you.

I'm giving you the perspective of someone who missed the DU gay/black oppression competition this week and stumbled across your thread by accident last night.

Yes, you have some good points, but your op makes it sound like homosexuals are claiming something that they're not, it is divisive and has many people up in arms.

From what I remember, I agree with you on just about every other subject, and possibly on this one too.

If I backed you into a corner, I apologize.

[dsc]

152. I'm sorry too

I had a bad day at church and shouldn't have posted what I did. I stand behind the notion that I didn't say that blacks have it worse but I conceed it could have come across that way.

[beam me up scottie]

153. This place has made everyone crazy.

Or maybe we made this place crazy?

I don't think most people forget the fact that we're all on the same side, we're just getting distracted.

Hopefully we'll win enough seats this time around to let us enjoy the luxury of distractions like debating semantics.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

21. Friend, I think you may have been passing too long.

Both the black and gay experiences are unique. No one has said otherwise. But both are a civil rights struggle.

I don't give a fuck if that offends anyone. Anyone who is offended by that is just someone who thinks the gay struggle is something lesser or dirty.

[dsc]

24. I am out everywhere but at work

I have been employed there for fewer than 4 months. As to your other point, I know several black gays who are offended by the idea that being gay and being black are the same. The black experience is unique in our country. To site just a few examples. Gays are as likely as straights to have parents who went to college, go to a good high school, and have parents who own their own home. Blacks are much less likely than others to have parents who went to college, go to a decent high school or have parents who own their own homes. Those are big differences.

[mondo joe]

29. Like I said: BOTH are unique. No sane person would say otherwise.

Less likely to own your own home vs more likely to commit suicide.

Want to weigh those?

[dsc]

41. dozens of times more likely to go to jail

vs more likely to commit suicide. Have you been to an all, or majority black high school lately? I never said one is better than the other, but they are different.

[mondo joe]

42. Prison vs suicide. How do you care to weigh the two?

And in fact you have been arguing that one is worse.

[dsc]

50. No I haven't

sorry but you don't get to be dishonest about what I said. As for the other point, I would likely commit suicide before I would go to a prison.

[mondo joe]

54. You certainly have.

You've argued every way that blacks are worse off than gays.

You've argued that it's an offense to blacks to say the two are comparable.

You've said that WE shouldn't say WE have it worse (which no one said to begin with), but you haven't said the reverse.

[beam me up scottie]

60. "Frankly I am willing to conceed that it is harder to be black"

What were you saying about dishonesty?

[pnwmom]

75. "I wouldn't presume to say which is harder."

How come you left this sentence out of the quote?

Being "willing to concede" is NOT the same as asserting something is true. It's merely not bothering to have an argument. As a gay white man, he's not going to argue with a straight black man about which of them has it worse. He "wouldn't presume to say which is harder."

Why are people jumping all over him for his thoughtful post? I honestly don't understand.

[beam me up scottie]

77. Because it's irrelevant. The op: "Frankly I am willing to conceed that it is harder to be black."

And then goes on to "prove" it by making even more ridiculous comparisons and statements.

Thoughtful?

The only thing I can think about when reading the op is how The Concerned Women of America would approve.

[pnwmom]

79. It's completely relevant, if you care to know

what he actually thinks.

You obviously don't.

You say he goes on "to 'prove' it by making even more ridiculous comparisons and statements." Okay, this is what he said next. I'd like to know what you think is ridiculous here:

"I wouldn't presume to say which is harder. Frankly I am willing to conceed that it is harder to be black. But that doesn't make gays less deserving of the full measure of rights. Gays and blacks both have a common enemy. The party currently in power hates us both. They will gay bait when that is necessary and race bait when it is. Instead of contests trying to figure out who Republicans hate more, we should be spending our time defeating our common enemy. Neither of us have totally easy lives. Both groups have a great deal of work before we are really experiencing the full measure of rights that non minority straights have.

"I end this post with a memory from my visit to the Civil Rights Museam in Memphis. One of the items that are on display in that museam are guide books from the 1950's of places where blacks could travel safely. Any gay person seeing that immediately thinks of similar guidebooks still in use by gays today. Few gay people will venture to any place with which they are unfamiliar without using such a guidebook. I actually had such a book on my visit to Memphis. It honestly hadn't occured to me that such guides existed for blacks but upon seeing one it immediately clicked as to the need for it.

"Being black and being gay aren't the same. But our enemy sure is. We shouldn't forget that."

[beam me up scottie]

81. The op thinks being black is harder than being gay.

It's right there in the op for everyone to see.

As well as in the rest of the posts in this thread trying to justify it.

Keep telling me I can't possibly understand it, though, maybe I'll eventually get ejumacated enough to understand.

[pnwmom]

84. I disagree. But I think he should be the judge of that,

not either of us.

By the way, I edited my previous post to ask you what you found so ridiculous in the statements he made after he said he was "willing to concede" that blacks have it harder. I don't see a single ridiculous statement there. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

[beam me up scottie]

86. Well, if you don't think I know what "concede" means, why should "ridiculous" be any different?

The op had plenty of chances to clarify and just dug himself in deeper.

I resent it when ANYONE compares the "degrees" of oppression between minorities.

Considering it's a common tactic used by the "moral" majority to sow dissent among the left, it's particularly vile coming from someone who is supposed to be on the left.

[beam me up scottie]

88. Look, pnwmom, we should just agree to disagree.

I don't know if the op wanted to start a shitstorm but I do know the reich wing would like nothing more than to encourage infighting right now.

We're on the same side of most other subjects and I respect your opinion and your right to disagree with mine.

peace

[pnwmom]

90. I know I'm frazzled about the election coming up

and I imagine most other DU'ers are, too. Maybe that's contributing to some of the heat around here.

I don't think we really disagree on this overall issue, just on our interpretations of what dsc was saying. But I am happy to concede you may be right!

peace back at you!

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

96. I hope you and yours are well.

And we'll have lots of time to agree and disagree about semantics once we've got our country back on track.

I've had to take breaks from DU often recently, living in the bible belt before such an important election is stressful enough (soooooooooo glad I ditched my tv a long time ago), and I hate seeing people I like and respect argue.

:hi:

[pnwmom]

99. Are you going to have to hold your nose and vote

for someone you don't like? I hope you don't suffocate.

I hardly watch TV either, although my family won't ditch them. The other morning I woke up, wandered into the kitchen. No one was there, but the TV was on and there was George with his evil grin talking about his evil war and I lost my appetite.

I'm just going to follow Paul Krugman's plan and turn this election into a referendum on George. I'm voting for every D that I see, I don't care what name attaches to it.

[beam me up scottie]

101. Yep, voting for every D is all I can do.

I hate to say that my vote doesn't really count, but here it's true.

It's more an act of defiance.

[SPKrazy]

159. At Least It Cancels Some Repuke, Republick, whatever's Vote

cheers!

[cali]

107. Statistically, of course,

the OP is right; it is harder to be black than to be gay, but that was hardly the main point of the poster's excellent OP. You seem to have utterly missed his point that both blacks and gays face a determined common enemy. And you're so determined to continue missing the point that I doubt that you'll ever be "ejumacated enough to understand." Rather a pity.

[Bluebear]

108. Which are you, black or gay, to expound on which is "more difficult"

And bmus is hardly uneducated.

[cali]

113. I'm neither,

but that doesn't change the statistics. And of course statistics don't tell the stories of individuals. Frankly, I find all this quibbling sad, and again, it wasn't the main focus of the OP.

[mondo joe]

126. Statistics also don't measure which group has it "harder".

[beam me up scottie]

145. Really? Then why do you think you have the right to argue with them?

Personally, I find turning the level of discrimination and oppression faced by two separate minorities into a competition to be sad.

[cali]

158. if there's one argument i find particularly

speciouos and repugnant, it's that because one isn't a member of a specific group, one has no right to hold an opinion.

[readmoreoften]

109. So it's harder to be a straight wealthy black female lawyer than a poor

transgendered butch Native American lesbian. Glad we cleared that up.

[Bluebear]

110. Everything is suddenly so absolute around here! nt

[beam me up scottie]

141. They are expert witnesses, Bluebear, because they say they are.

As the Don Henley song goes. ;)

[cali]

112. Can you read?

I said statistically. That does not mean that certain gay or lesbian individuals don't have it tougher than certain black individuals, but when you look at statistics regarding health, prison, arrests, certain kinds of drug abuse, income, and deaths from gunshot wounds, for example, blacks have it tougher. Again, that was hardly the OP's main point, and I'm sorry we're focusing on it here at DU. There's something wrong when it's a competition to see which specific group is worse off or more oppressed. Civil rights are equally important for everyone. Gays and lesbians should undoubtedly be able to be secure in their jobs, be able to marry, adopt and live their lives like any other citizen, secure in the knowledge that they share the same rights and responsibilities as any other person. And blacks shouldn't be incarcerated and executed so disproportionately, or die so young, or be stopped on the highway because of "driving while black", or suffer from poorer or less medical care. All of these issues are important.

[Bluebear]

114. You read THIS and see what started all the commotion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2489766

For about three days now gay DUers have been lectured to how much "worse" the black experience has been than the gay experience and I am rather sickened by it.

[readmoreoften]

116. Like they have "gay statistics". What do you know about gay people?

Statistically blacks have it harder than gays? Really? Where's the "who has it harder statistically survey"? RACE and SEXUAL ORIENTATION are not comparable categories. It's like saying hispanics have it harder than women. 50% of women are hispanic. And 10% of African-Americans are gay.

GLBT is not synonymous with white, suburban, american, middle-class, and male.


African-American suffering is massive. But the history of gay suffering is invisible and unknown by 99.9% of people because it's only taught in college. It is absurd to even make these kinds of comparisons, but I dare say you probably aren't qualified to make one.

[dsc]

120. If you read my post and subsequent ones

I didn't say better off, I said financially better off. Second, I didn't site gay statistics but the simple fact that any particular person is equally likely to be gay. Thus the majority of gays will belong to the majority race. If 10% of the population makes over 100k then 10% of gays would be likely to make over 100k. This is especially true of birth circumstances since any disadvante associated with being gay wouldn't have kicked in.

[cboy4]

121. Exactly, there definitely is something wrong when it's a competition

to see which specific group is worse off or oppressed.

In fact it's revolting.

So why is it individuals are continuing to pour gasoline on the fire by starting threads comparing the struggles of African Americans with Gays???

And you, whether you know it or not, are contradicting yourself by agreeing that statistically African Americans have it tougher than Gays.

What does the OP and your comment have a single thing to do with equal rights for all?

That's what the discussion should be about.

Instead, we've gone from gays are going to cost us control of congress to the current theme of gays don't have it so bad compared to blacks. :wtf:

[cali]

127. I haven't contradicted myself at all.

As for your question what do my comments have to do with civil rights? I suggest you read my comments again. I make it quite clear that everyone deserves the same rights. I certainly don't think that support for gay marriage is going to cost us politically. In fact I think the pukes have overplayed their hand on that one. But even if that were true, I'd be on the side of civil rights.

[mondo joe]

123. Please demonstrate how this is statistically so.

I'm not familiar with the statistical measure for difficulty.

[cali]

128. Oh, for fuck's sake

this has gotten so stupid and petty, and just plain old sorry, I'm bowing out. As I said, I support equal rights for everyone. Trying to make allies into enemies is idiotic.

[mondo joe]

129. I don't blame you for running away from your own claim when asked to support it.

It was a ridiculous claim.

[cali]

130. I'm not running away from anything.

And I'm about to trash my own advice about not letting small differences divide us. I'm as pugnacious as anyone, alas. Your moronic comments about not being able to measure difficulty are absurd. Of course difficulty can be measured. Gay and Lesbian Americans as a demographic are far wealthier than African Americans. Only an idiot doesn't think that poverty isn't a measure of difficulty. How about incarceration rates? And you're not going to get pulled over by the cops for driving while gay.

I hate that I'm responding to you and that I'm so easily goaded by fools. Makes me no better than you. Every person deserves civil rights. Statistics tell us nothing about individuals, and this quibbling is pathetic. Yes, that makes my engagement in it pathetic as well.

[mondo joe]

131. How about suicide rates?

How about having your kids taken from you because you're gay?

You can compare some measures, but not others, because the gay and black experience is DIFFERENT. It's apples and oranges to say the least, and the hardships of one are not the hardships of the other.

THAT is why they can't be compared statistically.

Get it?

[dsc]

151. I certainly wasn't saying you could

and I don't think Cali meant that you could, though he did say it. There are many indicators that can be compared and on some gays fare better and on others blacks do. But, do you know if black suicide rates are higher or lower than whites? I don't off the top of my head. I do know that more than a few studies show minorities are more likely to suffer depression which is one cause of suicide. I sure wouldn't be shocked to know that blacks are more likely to commit suicide than whites if it is the case. I would be shocked if they were as likely to commit suicide as gays are though.

[Bluebear]

134. You have made it so easy to be ignored.

Talk about arrogance.

[beam me up scottie]

143. "this has gotten so stupid and petty" Yes it has, even more so since you joined us.

Trying to make allies into enemies is idiotic.

Then why keep doing it?

Not a single person on this thread claims gays have it harder, you and the op are the ones making the opposite claim.

[beam me up scottie]

139. Wow, another expert on how "hard" blacks and gays have it.

I had no idea DU had so many qualified professional ... uh, whatever it is you guys are supposed to be. :eyes:

It's a pity you fail to understand why the op's statements are so offensive and why so many of us disagree with them.

It's a pity that in your rush to insult my intelligence and comprehension skills, you ignored the point I made in my first post:

What the fuck kind of idiotic thread is started with the intention of claiming one minority has life easier than another?

[Jamastiene]

14. Well said.

And to think, there are some black people who are gay too. I try to imagine what their experiences tell them often. I'd love to talk to some of them to see what they think. You are so right about our common enemy. Well said, dsc. :thumbsup:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

15. I'm neither gay or black but I know problems still exist- I hear and see things from bigots.

There are a lot of people who try to claim that there's "no racism towards blacks anymore" and even that they get all kinds of advantages, etc. I ask them: "Would you hire a black person who had the same qualifications as a white person - are you SURE?"

I've actually had people say "Probably not" and then STILL try to claim that there isn't any racism.

I love to also ask them if THEY had grown up poor and/or black if they would be where they're at now. Afew will say "yes." Then I ask them if their family members and relatives would all be in the same place. That gets a lot more thoughtful responses.

To be honest - where I live, I don't hear many anti-gay comments but that is most likely because I live in an area that tends to be pretty educated - so it's not as bad as an area where you'd have the uneducated ultra-religious who tend to be the anti-gay types. The older the person is - the more likely they are to be anti-gay.

Most of the people I know tend to think that the anti gay marriage b.s. is pretty stupid. I know the next county over would be much worse, however.

[nofurylike]

23. btw, being anyone and anyone else is "different." bye now.

[Mr_Spock]

25. Thanks for the thoughtful post

It did seem like a good percentage of the comparisons in the recent (albeit heated) post NJ discussions were to the civil rights movement in the 60's. For me this type of argument distracted from the issue more than it helped clarify things.

[Bluebear]

27. 'Someone has to say it - the NJ decision may have lost us the Senate'

That was one thread that didn't mention African Americans, for instance.

[Mr_Spock]

34. The argument was actually presented within the thread if I remember correctly

What is your point?

[Bluebear]

38. Many gay people here are feeling a little sensitive this week.

I guess that is my only point although I meant this one more tongue in cheek because I don't think you meant to word that particular thread as you did :)

[Mr_Spock]

43. I definitely chose my words quickly and emotionally there

There is no question that if I was to revisit that topic that I would be a little more sensitive in my original argument & title. That damned RW troll on the newscast really wound me up and when I didn't see a post discussing it, I was driven to take it on. I think we all will hopefully grow from this experience - I certainly have.

[Bluebear]

45. It's all good

:pals:

[Mr_Spock]

48. :o)

I appreciate that coming from you - I have enjoyed your posts for years - my ol' pal on the "live free or die" coast :D

:grouphug:

[BlooInBloo]

32. The only thing that bugs me is when gay folks use black folks' struggles...

... for their own fight, but then when something happens to black folks, those particular gay folks are all "it's not about race, it's about class".

AmericaBlog is good at this walking-on-the-backs-of-black-folks - though admittedly they've improved over the last year (I like to think it's due to my bitching, but those might just be grandeur delusions :) )


EDIT: "at".

[karlrschneider]

33. No disagreement but can't help noting that there are MANY more gay

people who also happen to be black than ever gets any press. Talk about 'double jeopardy'...I can't
even begin to imagine how hard it is for gay black folks to deal. That has got to suck big time.

[Karenina]

44. The biggest problem with your post

is the assumption of mutual exclusivity. Did you even consider how your post would read to someone who is both black and gay? Sexual orientation is an issue which has NOTHING to do with race as it occurs in ALL races and has been observed and well-documented in non-human species. How about those penguins, eh?

The bottom line is whether we accept our differences with grace and ease. For me, the "homosexual agenda" means accompanying dear friends on a day trip to Holland or visiting a gallery or talking about our crazy kids, relatives, bosses and co-workers or collaborating on a project or just doing what people DO TOGETHER and enjoying each others' company.

When it comes to the "rights" question, suffice to say that I will fight to the death to prevent the atrocity of a life-long partner being refused access to his/her dying mate and subjected to the prejudices and greed of bigoted relatives and an uncaring state. The laws MUST RESPECT ALL.

[pnwmom]

51. I don't see that assumption.

One of my closest friends is both black and gay, and he and I have discussed these same issues before. I think he would agree that the poster's analysis nailed the differences very well.

[Karenina]

70. The OP reads as though

ALL GAYS fit a particular demographic. He makes EXCELLENT points, aber MY point is it is NOT an "US" vs "THEM" issue.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Blacks are afforded equal rights by law. And homosexuals?

Can you fire someone just because they're black?

Can you deny them housing?

Can you stop black couples from getting married and refuse them the protection of all of the rights and privileges of legally married white couples?


What the fuck kind of idiotic thread is started with the intention of claiming one minority has life easier than another?

Nice work.

What's the subject of your next thread, transsexuals are better off than hispanics?

[Bluebear]

55. 'transsexuals are better off than hispanics'

:spray:

Leave it to you. :loveya:

[beam me up scottie]

57. How long has this been going on?

I've been trying to take a break from this place but threads like this make it impossible.

[Bluebear]

59. Oh, glory...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2489766

An important subthread was deleted, though, in which 'facts' from the Concerned Women of America were pointing out how much better off gays are than blacks.

[beam me up scottie]

61. So how long did it take to get thrown off the bus this time?

Maybe next election, if there IS a next election, you guys will be able to ride it all the way, whether it's to victory or defeat.

The fact that you haven't been able to do so yet is revolting.

[ruggerson]

95. Couldn't have said it better

blacks can also fight for the land of their birth in the armed forces.

Last I heard, gays cannot.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Dammit, yes, how could I forget that?

What I got for serving: an honorable discharge and the pride of having served my country well and having been acknowledged for doing so.

What they got for serving: the boot and the shame of having dishonored the service after being outed and/or admitting the truth about themselves. :mad:

[WindRavenX]

144. I *heart* you!

Very, very well said :thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

146. Right back atcha, WindRavenX.

:)

[cboy4]

64. Sigh.

Have I missed any discussion where more than one or two people have been arguing that being black and gay are the same?

Both minority groups deserve the same array of equal rights which are afforded to every other American.

That's the bottom line. That's the argument.

By reading this post, you would think large numbers of gay people at DU have been yelling and screaming about how our lives are just as difficult as African Americans', and thus we deserve equal rights.

No, that's irrelevant.

We deserve equal rights because we're human beings.

edit......typos. D'OH!

[beam me up scottie]

65. How dare you bring logic to this discussion?

:spank:

By reading this post, you would think large numbers of gay people at DU have been yelling and screaming about how our lives are just are difficult as African Americans', and thus we deserve equal rights.

That's what pissed me off too. I've NEVER heard anyone on DU say that.

The op is a straw man designed and marketed by the Concerned Women of America.

[cboy4]

69. Who's gunna start the Gay people are better looking than straight people

thread?

You or me? :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

73. I'll start that one if you start one about how straight people make lousy hairdressers...

And they're pretty lousy at picking china patterns, too.


:evilgrin:

[cboy4]

76. LOL. I already know this shit is going to start up again Monday if

it's not a real busy news day! :banghead:

[beam me up scottie]

83. Of course it will.

Why not pick on homosexuals?

You guys cost us all of the other elections, why not this one too? :sarcasm:

And hey, if they have to leave you alone, they'll come after us godless heathen atheists.

That's what this is all about, right?

Pointing fingers.

The Concerned Women of America have done their job well.

[cboy4]

89. I love how the straight white posters in this thread infer that they

have any idea in the fricken world what it's like to be gay or black! :eyes:

That's what's comical.

I realize this is a forum, but how does one seriously respond to the OP with any form of knowledge if you aren't gay or black???

And the whole some of my best friends are gay and black doesn't cut it.

[beam me up scottie]

92. I hear you.

I'm neither and that's why the whole premise seemed so stupid and divisive.

I've been told that atheists aren't "really" discriminated against in this country, like the native Americans were.

I've been told I wasn't really a citizen by an American president, lumped in with "godless" terrorists by the baboon in the White House and would lose my job if I came out of the atheist closet and this person presumes to tell me I'm not being discriminated against?

Who thinks like that?

Liberals are supposed to speak up for ALL minorities, whether they're one or not.

[pnwmom]

94. I'm straight. But I had to live in a closet

with my family for decades. Where do I fit in?

[mondo joe]

124. How did your family live in a closet?

[pnwmom]

135. When one of your parents is gay

and not out, then your whole family is living in a closet.

When one of your parents moves away and comes out -- and the other parent doesn't want anyone in your small town to find out -- then you're still in a closet.

[mondo joe]

148. Sounds like you had a hint of the closet.

The closet itself is worse.

[pnwmom]

155. This sounds like a repeat of the "who has it worse" argument.

I thought you didn't buy that.

And I know dozens of "queer spawn" who would strongly disagree with you.

[mondo joe]

156. I can go my whole life without ever talking about my dad.

I know how hard it would be to be closeted myself.

No comparison between the two.

[pnwmom]

157. You are an adult. I'm talking about children.

I'm talking about children living with a father always at least on the edge of exploding , because he hates himself. Children who, in a moment of crisis, are finally let in on the family secret, but told that their father could get arrested and they could all be homeless if anyone finds out -- or if their father, on one of his "walks," makes a poor decision. Children who live in the darkness, and the fear, and the shame with their parents -- but who have absolutely no control over their parents' lives. Children coming of age during a time when AIDs was known as the "gay man's disease" and the papers were full of articles about bath houses and gay promiscuity. Children who grow up before Ellen DeGeneres or Will and Grace or TV in general made it possible to hold up your head when telling friends, finally, decades later, why your parents got a divorce.

Yet you, who has never been closeted, but claim to "know how hard it would be to be closeted" yourself -- have the nerve to tell me, who actually lived it, that I only had a hint of the closet. That there is no comparison.

Wow.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

125. I seriously fail to see how your family lived in a closet.

[pnwmom]

136. Then you're seriously not thinking very hard.

My father was gay, pretending to be straight, with a wife and kids. Like the New Jersey governor. Families like that may look good on the outside, but believe me, they're sick on the inside. The closet is just as dark and scary and shameful a place for the kids as it is for the gay parent. Maybe even more so, because the kids have absolutely no control.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

137. IMHO, that's not a closet, it's just dysfunctional.

And that's my opinion as a queer kid from a dysfunctional family.

[pnwmom]

140. Why isn't it a closet?

When your whole family is living a lie, when you're all sworn to secrecy, when you've been told that there will be dire consequences if anyone outside the family ever finds out the truth, why isn't that a closet?

[BlooInBloo]

67. To my recollection, gay folks have, and do regularly draw a variety...

... of equivalences between their struggles and black folks' struggles.

Which I'm ok with, generally.

What I'm not ok with is the turncoat-backstabbing: when something happens to black folks, and the gay folks who were soooo happy to suck off of the black struggle inertia are all of a sudden "it's not about race it's about class" racism-deniers.

AmericaBlog does such routinely, for example. I still like AmericaBlog generally - don't get me wrong. But that sort of treachery bugs me.

[cboy4]

71. I don't know what you're talking about. What happens to black

people and we suck off them? :shrug:

(A poor choice of words I realize)

[BlooInBloo]

85. I stopped paying attention awhile ago.....

(if a person paid attention to every time a white American denied or downplayed racism, that person would have very little time for anything else.)

An example that comes quickly to mind is when AmericaBlog declared the Katrina debacle to have nothing to do with race (because it's not about race dontchaknow - it's about class). But whenever, for example, Ralph Reed gets Ford to not run gay-folks-oriented commercials, AmericaBlog is johnny-on-the-spot to put pressure on Ford, using all of the Civil Rights stories, metaphors, etc. from black folks' struggles.

I think that's craven.

Generically, it's just an indication that while gay folks are gay, they're white *first*. At least the ones who *are* white at any rate - lol!

[pnwmom]

97. The Katrina debacle was almost all about race

in my opinion. Americablog was nuts, if that's what they said.

And the rest was about being a Democratic stronghold. The Bush administration has been running the country as if half of it doesn't exist -- the Democratic half. If you didn't vote for them, you were screwed. New Orleans didn't go for Bush, and the Governor was a Democrat. So the whole state got shafted, but especially New Orleans.

But they wouldn't have dared to do that to a city of mostly white people.

All we have to do, if we're not sure about Republican racism, is look at what they're throwing at Ford. That same kind of mentality was involved in their response to Katrina. They despise black people, so they assume everyone else does, too.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Make7]

100. A former neighbor of mine was a homosexual black man.

At least he was a man - he had that going for him.

- Make7

[beam me up scottie]

102. Lucky son of a bitch.

:D

[Tyo]

87. And the difference is this..

Gays almost to a person support civil rights and equality for African Americans, and this is how is should be. Straight African Americans more often than not support denying those same rights to gays. Blame it on religion, blame it on culture, whatever. I've not heard of many gay African Americans who have gotten a lot of support from their community. And speaking as an Asian-American, we aren't much better.

[readmoreoften]

111. All these bullshit posts are based on the fact that 95% of this board is ignorant of gay history.

But so are most gay people; not like we learn our history in school. And, by the way, being gay is still punishable by death in many countries. Americans used anti-transgender sentiment as an excuse to conquer Native American peoples. The Spanish specifically murdered gays in the native populations they conquered in Peru and elsewhere.

GAYS AND LESBIANS WERE ROUTINELY JAILED, MURDERED, and RAPED BY POLICE IN THE US UNTIL AFTER STONEWALL.
Gays and lesbians were ghettoized into, not neighborhoods, but BARS until the 1970s when we took to the streets.
Gays and lesbians have had to resort to prostitution to make ends meet due to workplace discrimination throughout the 20th century.

African-Americans have one American history
White gay Americans have another
And Black gay Americans have yet another.

Gay people are being murdered ALL AROUND THE WORLD. There is a lesbian rape epidemic in South Africa against Black lesbians. Lesbians in Iran are either forced to have sex changes or they are executed.

African-American history is an American atrocity. One of the worst wrongs in HUMAN history. America's racist PRESENT is equally shameful and sickening.

AND FIGHTING FOR GAY PEOPLE DOESN'T MINIMIZE THAT.
I'M NOT APOLOGIZING TO BLACK PEOPLE FOR BEING GAY AND NEEDING RESPECT.

(This isn't addressed specifically to you DSC, but to this whole damn topic.)

[Bluebear]

115. You said it. nt

[readmoreoften]

117. Hey Bluebear!

:hug:

[Bluebear]

118. Heya RMO

:hug:

I see your plea for ending these types of threads fell on deaf ears :(

[dsc]

122. A couple of things

First, yes gays have been jailed in the past, and some might well still be today. But I think any rational look at the effects of the drug war on today's blacks drawfs the arrest campaigns of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. It also isn't inherited which was one of my points. In otherwords the fact they jailed gays in the 1970's is unlikely to directly affect me now but the fact they have been jailing black males in huge numbers since (well since who knows when) does affect blacks today.

My post also wasn't intended to speak to the world but to the US.

[readmoreoften]

154. Yes, unless you are one of those gays who was alive during the 70s.

Geez! These members of our community are still alive today? And what about the fact that African-American history is recorded and gay history is erased. We don't even have any real pictures of Stonewall because after the AIDS crisis so many homophobic families through away our memories. We have no one to pass our history to.

The comparison is absurd. By chasing this strawman, you're lending credulity to this idiotic notion that gay rights undermines African-American history. It is a ROVIAN PLOY through and through, and one that has even been discussed in the media. This is just a disingenuous comparison as saying the Women's Rights movement undermines the plight of African-Americans.

It's disgusting, counterproductive, and serves no one.

[dsc]

162. I went to Stonewall

and I had to have been close to the oldest person in the room (I am not even 40 yet). As to the rest I am not saying blacks have it worse but we do need to respect the difference.

[Sapphocrat]

132. Just remember, RMO...

If you remind anyone that "being gay is still punishable by death in many countries," don't ever mention which countries, 'cause you'll get slapped down, en masse, for contributing to the right-wing movement to attack said countries.

Unbelievable, but true. Done that, been slapped.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

133. Wow.

:wtf:

That's really stupid. Not really surprising, but definitely stupid.

[pnwmom]

142. It's similar to the relativists

who want to convince us that oppressing women (female genital mutilation, burqas, etc.) shouldn't be uniformly condemned because it is a cultural issue.

[gully]

147. Various people throughout history have had a "plight"

you are correct in that each experience is unique.

[aikoaiko]

163. I never understood why saying the civil rights struggles were/are analogous...

...was so inflamatory to some people.

All analogies break down, by definition.

[soothsayer]

164. I always say your parents rarely hate you for being a black child