Why we are what we are

[Mythsaje]

You know what sets us apart from our regressive opponents? We believe in America. They don't.

The simple fact is that they're afraid of what America represents. They're afraid of freedom. They're more like Al Qaida and the Taliban than they want to admit. Freedom scares them.

And they're doing their level best to make the rest of us afraid too.

The whole war against gays is because they're afraid, deep down in their hearts, that gays are people too. They scream about the "gay agenda" and say that they want to take over America, when it's plain to thinking folks that they just want to be as secure as any other American. They want the fulfillment of the promise that the ideal of America made to them as children.

There's no crime in that.

And they're afraid that their religion isn't really up to snuff. It can't tolerate challenges to its ascendency. Screaming about a "war on Christmas" doesn't prove their faith. Quite the opposite. If their faith was strong, they wouldn't invent threats to rouse the passions of the believers. Christianity isn't under any kind of attack in America. It's as strong as it ever was. What's under attack is their own faith in their religion.

What sets us apart from them is that we believe everyone; gay, straight, Christian, Pagan, atheist, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Pantheist, Deist, young, old, rich, poor, male, female, healthy, disabled, immigrant, or native born, has a place in America. DESERVES a place in America. Deserves to feel SECURE in America.

They're afraid. They're afraid of everyone not like themselves. They're afraid of us. You, me, and the guy down the street. Why? Because they don't believe. Their faith is a lie. Their faith in America is a lie, just as much as their faith in God is a lie.

We believe. That's what makes us stronger than them. We believe that America stands for something besides pre-emptive war, torture, rendition, suppression of dissent, corporate hegemony, illegal surveillance, and might makes right.

We believe that America stands for humanity. All of us. A chance to make a better world for us, our children, and generations to come. Most of the world used to believe that. Even in places that were ground under the feet of vicious tyrants, they used to believe that. People in the old Soviet Union, while being held captive by their government, used to whisper and dream of the freedom we Americans took for granted. They believed in what America stood for, even when America itself wasn't sure.

Until these regressive unbelievers took control. They stole the dream of America from the world, turned it into a blight in their eyes, and took from us the promises that were made to us as children.

But we STILL BELIEVE. That's why we're fighting the good fight, despite the regressives and their quislings in Congress, the Courts, and the corporate press. We believe in America, despite everything they've done to it.

Why?

Because WE are America, and we know that we can make it right. We have to.

We have no choice.

We believe.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. I wish it were so

But I remember myself as the product of an Orthdox upbringing; I was a true believer and wanted everyone to share the sense of certainty I enjoyed.

But if you need to demonize your opponents, I understand - that's what I used to do.

[Mythsaje]

4. It's called rhetoric...

And it has a purpose.

Besides, we have some pretty damn demonic opponents to begin with.

[JeffR]

6. Hate to gainsay the author of this excellent piece

But I don't call this rhetoric. I call it journalism. And I don't understand how a clear-eyed, articulate portrayal of what the GOP has come to stand for can be taken for demonization.

And a K & R for this, Mythsaje. You're two for two today.:applause:

[Fredda Weinberg]

13. You see "them" as demonic

But I can't look back at myself that way. I was sincere then as now.

I wasn't motivated out of fear or lack of faith. You call it rhetoric - I call it wrong.

[Mythsaje]

14. You were wrong back then

and you're wrong now. At least about this.

I don't play nice with bullies. They don't appreciate it. I learned THAT a long time ago.

Bullies gave me a bit of a mean streak. Or at least a sense of when I need to tap into my inner ruthlessness.

This is the time.

"The difference between Conservatives and Liberals? Here it is in a nutshell. The worst of you (not naming any names, but it rhymes with Span Holter) calls for the KILLING of liberals, and the destruction of those organizations brave enough to espouse a viewpoint other than that of conservatism.

She thinks we deserves to die. Or says she does.

Others just want to throw us in prison. For holding a different viewpoint from their own. Is that the America YOU want to live in?

Some conservatives consider Michael Moore the worst among the liberals. For making a movie espousing a different point of view. Did he suggest we should kill ANYONE? No. He suggests INVESTIGATING what may be termed Gross Incompetence, if nothing else.

The worst thing certain writers have suggested should be done to conservatives is to send them somewhere else. Anywhere else. Bon Voyage!

If you can't see the contrast here, and what's wrong with the whole picture, you're beyond saving.

Please exit the country immediately. There's a few conservative religious governments in the Middle East that would love your drive and determination to kill those who don't agree with you. If calling for the death of heretics (or infidels) is something that appeals to you--you have more in common with the terrorists than WE ever will.

sincerely,

with a sincere one fingered salute,

your neighbor and family member,

the Liberal American."

[Fredda Weinberg]

15. So you've become what you claim to despise

Ironic, don't you think?

[Mythsaje]

16. In your opinion, perhaps...

I assure you that bullies love those willing to duck and cover when they enter a room.

Mustn't offend them, after all. Might be reprisals. Wouldn't be prudent.

At least I don't make fun of people with Parkinsons...

But, by all means, continue with that whole milquetoast thing. I'm sure it'll bring victory any day now.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mythsaje]

18. You're misinterpreting a lot here...

I have serious issues with people who think they have a owner's manual to the universe. I really don't like fundies and I enjoy sticking my thumb in their eye at every opportunity.

I happen to think that revealed religion is nonsense. Not saying God doesn't exist, per se, but I don't believe anybody out there knows one way or another. I'm sick of them pretending that their book of twisted history and parables gives them some sort of right to push everyone else around.

Makes them no better than the Islamic Radicals they despise.

And I get a bit sore at this conciliatory nonsense some people spout. "Oh, you're becoming what you hate."

Nope. Wrong answer. I'm not telling anyone what they should believe. I'm not threatening anyone with eternal torture if they worship at the wrong church. But I AM, on the other hand, telling people that I think they're full of shit.

When I write something like this particular piece you seem to object to so strongly, I'm pointing out what I see as their greatest weakness. That to justify their faith they seem to have to denigrate those who aren't buying it. It's not each and every one of them, but if they sit there in church and listen to their pastor spout this crap week after week while swallowing it willingly, they're almost as bad.

And I DO happen to think they're mostly motivated by fear...fear of what they don't understand. And what's more, fear of what they don't WANT to understand. They're taught that learning other points of view could make them vulnerable to "Satanic" influences and THAT, in my opinion, is exactly the kind of fear-mongering bullshit to which I'm objecting.

I'm sorry I've been so antagonistic toward you. It's just that your comments have been remarkably similar to more than a few people I've encountered in my travels that can't seem to get their collective asses off the fence and realize that, while many of us are quite happy to allow these folks to practice their religion as they see fit, there's an awful lot of them who sure as hell wouldn't give the rest of us the same respect. We're not trying to take over the country and mold it in such a way that they wouldn't have a place in it. But some of them sure the heck ARE.

And that just ticks me off.

[Fredda Weinberg]

21. I don't run - I stand and hold my ground

It's all you need to do to earn respect, even from the most inarticulate.

It's your hostility that I find depressingly familiar. Your need to disparage something you don't understand is a perfect example of what you claim to despise.

We're all going to have to live in this world. You won't change the fundamentalists - they won't convert you. It's a shame that hostility has to come from both sides.

[bobbolink]

2. We also need some Jungian analysis here....

We (DEMs, progressives, whatever) have our shadow side, too, and it serves no purpose to keep reassuring ourselves how "right" we are on everything.

So much of what you've mentioned is cultural, and we all have it to some extent.

We would do well to also look at that shadow, and work on healing it to the best of our ability.

[porphyrian]

7. I don't think I get what you're saying.

Are you saying we're not right as much as we think we are, or that we're putting to much effort into repeating it when we are right (or think we are), which may be an effort to convince ourselves as much as others? Or what?

[bobbolink]

8. I'm simply saying that the "us and them" stuff isn't useful

We need to start looking inward, and recognizing some of this in ourselves, as well, if we truly want to change society, rather than just rearranging the deck chairs.

[porphyrian]

9. We are simply playing our role in the binary they created.

Society has been changed, and it had nothing to do with everyone being understanding and working together, so I don't buy your assertion that we to do so now. We've already tried that tactic. Every time we tried to reach across the boundary, we were punished for it. They wanted to change society by subjugating, if not eliminating, us. Were you asking the same of them at the time? If I and others have some hostility and inflexibility at this point, I'd say that's a bed they made. Fuck them.

[bobbolink]

19. Fine, that's how you want it, then I'm not trying to understand you

anymore.

If that's peace, then we're all in bad shape, eh?

Let the bombs fly.

Fuck it.

[porphyrian]

20. So, you want to get along with them but not me?

That's a winning strategy.

[porphyrian]

3. "If their faith was strong, they wouldn't invent threats..."

That is EXACTLY my problem with most religion pushers. For as much as they talk about faith, they sure seem to have none themselves, because apparently everything threatens it. Call me rational, but I would think twice about a religion with an omniscient, omnipotent god that fears everything from music to the private behaviors of other people. I'm really trying to destroy enough brain cells to get it, I really am. Maybe I'll suffer head trauma one day, and it will all make sense.

[Mythsaje]

5. I know... despite countless bong hits

and more than my share of drunks, I still haven't killed enough brain cells for it to make sense.

Dammit.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Timothy Leary didn't get it either, and he took more LSD than just about anyone.

[Igel]

10. It's because "fear" is the wrong word.

You're struggling to understand something that isn't necessary. Their god "condemns" some behaviors. This is perhaps a better word than "hate", since "hate" covers too wide a semantic field.

There are many things that dems condemn too, in equivalent if not identical terms. Racism, for example. I'm not sure that progressives fear racism, just the effects of racism; mostly, progressives hate racism. Inequality tends to be another. There are more; but just as your list is inapplicable to many fundies, so any list I make up won't apply to all, or possibly even most, progressives.

[porphyrian]

12. So, the disconnect is within the god entity then.

Or at least in his/her/its "commandments" to humans, which are always untestable as legitimate, since they always come "through" other humans, which could just as easily be anything from a misinterpretation to schizophrenia.

I agree that Democrats and progressives condemn things like racism, though.

[Igel]

22. That's where you'd have to put it.

X is wrong; therefore hate it. As a corollary, possibly, "fear the consequence of engaging or pursuing X."

The list of Xs can be long, and varies by ideology and belief system. There's always a drive to ban Xs, a feeling of moral superiority that comes with condemning others, and some set of people that say that your belief system is wrong.

Comes with the territory.

[mentalsolstice]

11. I think, therefore I am...

I am what I am, because I believe that EVERY human being (and dog and cat :)) deserves a basic level of dignity...I've always been against the Iraq war foe a multitude of reasons, but none more so than it took our attention away from humanitarian concerns, both here in the U.S. and abroad. I want progressives to take control so that we can get back to talking about pulling people out of poverty, education, the environment and health care (which I'm very socialist about). I'm pissed that we currently have NO dialog about these issues...