As a veteran, I'd not be offended if he HAD been talking about the troops!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

Kerry claims he was referring to Bush and I'll take that at face value.

But supposing he had meant the troops:

So what?

Most people enlist because they can't get into, or aren't planning to attend college. Most of us came from economically lower class families. And quite frankly, a lot of us didn't try as hard as we could have in school. Therefore, we didn't get Ivy League scholarships. The military has long existed as an opportunity for young people to get job skills and money for college. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it's simply an economic and political reality.

The downside is that you can happen to be unfortunate enough to enlist during a time when your country is run by callous and incompetent dolts, you can get stuck in a hellhole like Iraq. That's not the fault of the troops; it is the fault of the callous, incompetent dolts.

The solution is not to elect incompetent dolts. And don't blame the messenger for stating the obvious. If Kerry had been talking about the troops, he'd have been telling the truth and delivering an effective anti-recruiting message. Do you think there aren't soldiers over there right now wishing they'd gone to college instead?

My response to any wingnut brings this bullshit up will be, "Talk to me when you and the College Republicans start lining up at the recruiting office. Until then, shut the fuck up!"

:rant:

[Redstone]

1. Thank you for pointing that out. Well-said.

Redstone

[Union Thug]

2. Moreover, they have been LOWERING the enlistment standards...

n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeyondGeography]

4. The problem with your statement is that many of these kids

don't have the means to pursue a college education, even if they had the grades. As you know, a lot of them go into the military so they can get an education. Plus, the message that college will keep you out of Iraq should never come from a lifetime rich kid like Kerry (and, yes, I realize that's not what he was trying to say).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

6. Correct. Many of them don't have the means.

Kerry has been at the forefront of trying to expand access to higher ed. The CONs have been cutting funding to education, partly to leave more young people with no alternative other than military service. We are not in disagreement on that point. My point is that a lot of us didn't have the grades to get into a university, even with financial aid. Joining the military was a way to mitigate our youthful errors and set ourselves on a better course. We knew exactly what we were doing and the risks it entailed. That was back in 1987. For all their faults, and gawd knows they had many, Reagan and Bush Sr. were not complete psychotic morons. Neither was Clinton, obviously.

But today, if I encountered a teen who was gaffing off school thinking he/she could join the military as a last resort, I would shake that kid silly! I'd say exactly what Kerry said (albeit he was talking about Bush). I'd say, "Are you nuts? You better get your ass in that classroom and buckle down on those books unless you want to find yourself taking bullets for Halliburton!" It needs to be said and I don't care who says it. What advice would you give a poor, but smart, kid these days? Would you tell him/her not to worry because you can join the military? Or would you recommend studying hard to get a scholarship?

[zalinda]

7. Just to set the record straight

Kerry was NOT a life time rich kid. His father was in the diplomatic service, but was not paid as well as they are now. He did have the opportunity to go to good schools. But he had to works as a door to door salesman to make money to help pay to go to college.

Why dems keep repeating right wing spin, I'll never know. Al Gore was not a rich kid either, he grew up on a farm. He got to go to the right schools because of his fathers position, but he spent summers on the farm doing farm chores. His father became rich after Al was grown.

Just because someone is rich now, and educated, doesn't mean that they grew up rich..... that's repub spin.

zalinda

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. Rich doesn't necessarily mean being spoiled

I used to date a guy who was, to this day, the most spoiled brat I have ever known. He came from modest circumstances but his parents indulged and pampered him like he was a prince. Conversely, my current SO is from an affluent and prominent family. He is the kind, generous, and responsible to a fault. And he's a liberal Dem. Spoiled Brat is a Republican. Go figure.

[BeyondGeography]

17. This isn't RW spin

Kerry and Gore are irrefutably children of privilege. Their social status opened opportunities that were only available to few people in our society, which is a form of wealth, is it not?. The fact that Kerry raised a little pocket cash for himself once in college with a sales job doesn't mean diddly. I don't hold any of this against Kerry; he's done great things with his life and he's a faithful liberal. My original point was that certain politicians (i.e. Clinton) are better positioned to deliver bread-and-butter messages about life than others.

[zalinda]

26. Until you've experienced it, you don't know what hell it can be

My son went to a privileged school for a few years. His grandmother paid for it. It was horrible for him. Can you imagine what it is like to have all your peers talk about trips that they've taken, or things that they've gotten to do and you have nothing to contribute. Your clothes are obviously cheaply made even though there is a school dress code. Every day my son was told or shown that he wasn't as good as these people. We were/are poor and just didn't measure up to their standards. Hell, the kids had newer and better cars than mine. And, on top of everything else, he had a learning disability that they couldn't or wouldn't address. This is what eventually led them to ask my son to leave, he was bringing down their GPA.

Kerry and Gore worked hard for their "privilege", and to put them in the same category as Bush or other wealthy politicians is really a disservice to them.

zalinda

[shanti]

13. see, that's why clinton was so popular, imo

he wasn't born with a silver spoon, so people could relate to him easier.

[durrrty libby]

5. Stating the obvious pisses them off

Some hate the truth and will do anything to avoid it

:hurts: :hurts: :hurts:

[Taoschick]

9. I'd be offended

I did serve in the military, as did my brother and all of my cousins. We didn't join because we had to, we all had other options.

As a veteran, I do get a little tired of people who wanted nothing to do with the military trying to rationalize why those of us who served did so.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. I'm a veteran and so is Kerry. Whom are you talking about? n/t

[Taoschick]

11. I'm talking about what Kerry said

And the responses from many people on this forum. There are quite a few people who don't quite understand why some people might have been offended by his actual words vs his later statement.

He didn't apologize and he should have.

[w4rma]

15. Many people do join the military because they have no other options open.

That is a fact.

Many people don't. And even the way his statement was made didn't say that everyone who joins the military wasn't able to make it through school. It came from the other direction: Folks who can't make it through school often have the military has their only option.

That is a fact of life in every nation in the world.

He has restated his support for our troops. He has recomplemented them. He is a decorated veteran (and therefore a former "troop") himself. Bush has never served in combat, nor have the vast majority of the Rethugs in Congress. He has also restated how pissed off he is that the Republican leadership is pissing away our honorable troops to try to keep their Republican majority.

[Cha]

31. Yes, Kerry has since "apologized".

For botching what he was saying.

[shanti]

12. don't forget the ones

who ONLY join up to finance their educations, because there is no help coming from any other source. you know, the "poor" kids, whose parents cannot afford to pay for college. i know lots of them...THEY are the ones that are being royally screwed by the chimp.

not everyone is college material...but they don't need to be cannon fodder either!

[JeffR]

14. Rec #5

As someone with only a 1A draft card I never got around to burning way back when, I say thanks to both you and John Kerry.

[pacalo]

16. Don't take it at face value, sweetums. Here is the actual joke that

he stumbled on (which is rare):

From Dems Will Win's post:

"I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq." - Senator John Kerry

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/taylor-marsh/kerrys-mangl...

:patriot:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

18. I saw that and I know he meant it as a joke

I was just positing a hypothetical based upon the outcry. Even as a misstatement, it's not that bad. And nothing that I wouldn't tell a kid today.

[BlueIris]

19. What ho? A thread started by a sane person? Who also, you know,

served in the military? Stop that, man, this represents FAR too much sanity.

[bobbieinok]

20. remember Jesse Venturi's interview after he won in MN??

He said something to the effect that he and his friends goofed off a lot in high school and they didn't have rich daddies (like, presumably the dem and repub gubernatorial candidates) who could send them to college, so they ended up in the military (and, I think, in Vietnam).

His anger and resentment (although muted, possibly by time) was very clear to me. I was in grad school in the 60s and my husband had an academic deferment, a type of deferment that was eliminated in 67-68. Although he was called to Oakland for a pre-induction physical twice in the spring of 68, he somehow was not drafted and then completely escaped the draft on his 26th birthday in May.

[madokie]

21. the draft first then the thought of maybe some more education

Kerry was talking about bush* to the troops about reality.

[w8liftinglady]

22. I figured he was talking about kids like my oldest son

Very unmotivated in school-no ambition.The Army was the best thing that happened to him,even though he did do three tours in Iraq.I wasn't offended.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I Guess You Have To Make An Exception For The Academies...

My friend got scholarships to some Ivy League Schools and was also accepted into West Point... He chose the academy... By the way his dad was a postman..

[pecwae]

24. Good post.

From the first time I saw the video of his statement I knew he was talking about Bush. It just wasn't possible to me that Sen. Kerry would ever insult troops in any way and I'm a vet. Try as I might I cannot get from his statement to an insult of the troops.

I was in with many other troops who couldn't afford to go to school and joined to take advantage of advancement opportunities. I took advantage of this as well. Nothing wrong with that and we all knew there was a downside, but hoped we could survive it.

If Sen. Kerry had meant the troops it still would not have been an insult; it would have been motivation.

[quiet.american]

25. I'm a vet, and I'm not offended either.

When I served in the early 80's, roughly 60% of those around me were there because they could get a subsidized education. It used to really astound me, being a naive teenager back then, that almost no one said they joined out of a sense of patriotism. The reasons were: I can get to go to college, I want to travel, I can support my family, it was this or jail, etc.

The real problem is that Bush is using the troops as cannon fodder and even admits it through the oft-repeated "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" ridiculous meme.

As Kerry said, why no outrage over what Bush is actually doing to the military?

And why does Bush get a free pass on transforming the Iraq invasion into an eternal war, when it was sold to Congress as an in-and-out action that Rumsfeld said he doubted would last six weeks?

Like the hyenas they are, Republicans have seized on this non-issue to create a new Dean Scream. If this tired gambit works on the voters this time, as someone else said, this country deserves whatever it gets.

[Lasher]

28. I was drafted out of college in 1969 because I let my grade average get down.

Too much partying. Boy, was that a mistake. I went back a few years later to take night classes while working a full time job during the day and eventually got my sheepskin. So this would have applied directly to me if Kerry had meant it that way. The guy in the bunk above mine in basic training had copped a manslaughter plea and the judge let him join up instead of going to jail. That was not unusual. They needed lots of cannon fodder in those days.

[quiet.american]

29. Thanks for posting about your experience, too. n/t

[sutz12]

27. Veteran here! I agree wholeheartedly. nt

[Cha]

30. UUUUUUUUUUUOOOOOOOO!

I love this :loveya:

"Talk to me when you and the College Republicans start lining up at the recruiting office. Until then, shut the fuck up!"

[alfredo]

32. bush cutting Pell grants and aid to education has forced many

young people into the military. Their hope is to get the promised educational benefits for serving in the military. His recession also made the military one of the few options for high school grads. The local auto plant isn't hiring, but the Army is.

Making higher education only for the rich is very much a Straussian idea. Us working class people are seen as too dumb and morally corrupt to handle higher thought.

[hedgehog]

33. Rich man's war, poor man's fight

It bears repeating between now and next Tuesday.

[alfredo]

34. Yes, that needs to be shouted from the treetops.