I miss the old DU. The one where opinions of all stripes were valued.

[NoodleyAppendage]

Nothing reveals the problems with the current DU than the topic of Kerry. Why is it that any criticism of Kerry (or Hillary for that matter) automatically results in reflexive name calling of "concern trolls," Freepers, bad Dems, etc.?

I thought that we were better than the Repukes and did not all move or think in lockstep? Not being a Kerry fan or Hillary fan does not make that person a bad Dem. If that's what we have become, then I'm sad to say that we may have abandoned that which I valued in the Democratic Party - the "big tent" where a plethora of voices and opinions made us more informed than our conservative ilk.

DU is a discussion site, not a mutual cheerleading section where people who think different (but share similar ideals) are not welcome.

J

[Selatius]

1. People are people.

Just as they can choose to rise above, so too can they choose to take the low road.

You should see more of this as more and more people come to DU. The opportunities that people would choose to rip down and attack will only continue to increase with the size of DU.

I wouldn't ascribe it as a Freeper-DUer relationship. I would say it's just human, and humans aren't perfect. People can be vicious regardless of which messageboard they post on.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

29. The fact is most people have a herd mentality

and that doesn't change with party affiliation.

[tomreedtoon]

2. You're new to the Internet, aren't you?

I've been around since before Usenet, even...back when all Internet messages were local on BBS's run out of people's bedrooms on phone modems.

There have ALWAYS been people screaming over posts, over-reacting, going...well, to use a somewhat offensive but appropriate phrase, apeshit.

You want to see real controversy? Try posting something on the boards at "Ain't It Cool News" or "Film Threat." People will come to your house, butcher your pet and shove its carcass down your throat for fairly inoculous comments. This place is heaven by comparison.

[NoodleyAppendage]

8. No. I remember the BBS scene. I just wonder why the abandonment of diversity.

Flame wars will always errupt in cyberspace, but for the most part these tend to quickly burn out. Also, the flame wars of the past around DU were not as strident about group conformity. I wonder if our frustration about being out of power is resulting in lower tolerance for nonconformity among our ranks.

J

[Solo_in_MD]

14. That, and the desire of some to control the thoughts and actions of others

such aberrant behaviors cross all political boundaries.

[canetoad]

46. Now don't take this the wrong way

because I'm really trying to speak honestly and openly. Hell, I know someone will take offence, but before I start, I stress, that is not the intention.

I'm an observer of Americans. You are a fascinating race. You are the embodiment of what politics here in Oz could become in the future if we are not careful. Can you cop some honest comments from a concerned friend? If not, move on now. If you can, read on:

You seem to be a race of appeasers. I cannot explain it any other way, but there seems to be a horror of ever offending someone. Sometimes I muse that it may be learned behaviour, because of the prevalance of guns in your society. I live in a country that has very few guns. I can pretty much go about my business knowing that no angry/immature/disturbed/dominant/deluded/psychotic people are carrying the means to blow me away forever if I give them the wrong look. Maybe I'm over-simplifying, please tell me if I am.

Television. What can I say? Practically no person under 50 years of age, anywhere in the western world has escaped the mindless pap and self absorption that american television has pumped out to the world. Sometimes DU is just one big fat soap opera to me. Particularly, I cannot get over the threads when someone has died, or had some bad fortune. Sooooo many people act as if this was a personal anguish. As if the person/family concerned was a cherished close friend.

Still with me? I have asbestos knickers. Don't go yet......I need to paraphrase this, cos I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something like, ' Americans are very good at understanding themselves, but know fuck all about the rest of the world'.

How does this relate to the original post? lol, I'm trying to recover the train of thought. Lockstep. Fear of being different. Individuality. Fear. Intolerance. Being yourself. Approval. Yah, that's it. Needing approval.

[Bhaisahab]

54. good post.

i too am an observer of americans, and i too believe we indians are well on our way to a third-world version of the USA as it exists under corporate rule today.

[Kiouni]

55. I agree with almost everything

but not the intolerance part at the end..is that the word you meant to use? I strive to encourage tolerance and i don't consider this an american trait. on another note do you consider compromising and appeasing to be one in the same?

[cali]

56. Yes, of course you're oversimplifying.

That doesn't mean you don't make some good points. However, America is far more complex than any other country in the world due to the diversity of its population, and that does make broad statements about it, really unreliable.

And honestly, I look at the ruling regime in Australia, led by the despicable Howard, and I can't give any props to the Australian electorate.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. " a race of appeasers" - that's Democratic Disease.

Half of us will fall over backwards with our misguided concern to be fair to the opposition that is implementating theocratic fascism while kicking us in the balls.

[tomreedtoon]

74. Well, about the guns...and the TV...

...as Michael Moore said in his flawed but earnest "Bowling for Columbine," the presence of guns doesn't cause trouble. Canadians have even more guns in personal hands but a tiny fraction of the gun violence and murders of America.

Moore correctly pointed out that American culture pushes paranoia and fear, as does American politics. (And before the people at DU start feeling superior about that, you're guilty too: look at the brouhaha that erupts here about stupid things, like John Kerry's five-years-too-late righteousness about being mugged in an alley.)

As for the TV, it's curious that you should pick on that. The last export from America that anyone really wants is our popular culture, and despite its flaws, it's the one thing we make that's worthwile. I've seen BBC America and, let's be honest, its best shows are pallid imitations of American productions. Canada's "Cold Case," which my station runs late at night, is a "CSI" clone that wasn't baked in the oven long enough. And we're only seeing the GOOD stuff from England and Europe; more typical is Johnny Carson's old description of the BBC running a "documentary on the history of scissors."

About not understanding the rest of the world, well, it's that paranoia we suffer. In the 1950's, when we were self-confident and snotty, we were more open to the rest of the world. After a few assassinations of a couple of Kennedys and a King, we're nowhere near as cheery. If we could get a decent leader to spread light and hope, instead of the guy we've got now, we'd feel better as a people and act better in the rest of the world.

But sadly, the only replacements being pushed are Clinton, Kerry and Gore, who bear the same relation to our best Presidents as "Cold Case" does to "CSI." Underbaked clones from the vat. But at least they're better than Shrubbery.

[SoCalDem]

75. Americans live vicarious lives.

I have lived abroad and sometimes Americans are even funny to me..and I AM one.

For a lot of Americans, if it's not on TV, it didn't happen..

and

Orgasmic grief seems to be something we just do..(but it's spreading..remember the Diana-gasm in the UK).

Things done for the benefit of the ever-present camera validates us, and it seems as if America just cannot get past it.

Lots of Americans live through others because they have few if any "real" connections of their own anymore. Families are spread out all over the place, kids are in corporate daycares instead of being cared for by relatives or Moms (Moms HAVE to work these days)..so do Grandmas..:eyes:

We've turned ourselves inside-out.

We work 80 hours a week to make 40hrs worth of pay, and try to squeeze out a few hours of "living" , but we are spread incredibly "thin"..

Living vicariously makes us "feel" better, I guess.

[OHdem10]

3. could it be that we are trying to look unified

especially during this close election? This is just
a guess. Republicans are very good at protecting
their own. Perhaps the media looks favorably
on this behavior.

[LWolf]

72. Suppressing dissent

does not make one look "unified." It makes the party appear less than "democratic." It makes the party appear to endorse censorship.

[REP]

4. This is The "Old DU"

It's been like this since I've been here, which has been a long time now. There was no golden age.

[Robbien]

Wait until after the election, it will return to normal

Usually right before an election, DU does get swamped with outside instigators who act as concern trolls. The outsiders disappear after the election.

After the election you may have a discussion at DU on the merits of Democratic Leadership without being flamed as being a troll.

[LittleClarkie]

5. When was that, exactly?

It sure wasn't right after the 2004 election? But was I whining about how my view wasn't valued. No siree bob.

[Wonk]

6. In my experience, DU has never been a place where

opinions of *all stripes* were valued. Right wing rovian BS has no place here, for example, other than for us to pick apart and counter.

[ProSense]

7. Exactly what are do you want to criticize Kerry about today?

Today is a day Kerry smacked down RW noise, which they manufactured by manipulating the facts! What are you aching to criticize Kerry for today? Kicking the Repubs in the teeth?

Plenty of time to whine! This is not one of them!

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. Which forum were YOU reading, anyway?

I've been here since 2002 (profile says '03, but this isn't my original user name), and this sort of thing has gone on as long as I can remember.

[NoodleyAppendage]

11. I've been around as long. It seems like 2004, things got nastier.

The pro/anti camps surrounding Kerry and Hillary are becoming much more vociferous.

J

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Yeah...

but since I've been here there've been people to shoulder their rifles and fall in with the circular firing squad (infighting about points of ideological difference being preferable to focusing on the mutual EXTERNAL opposition of the GOP, apparently), which is somewhat counterproductive, to say the least.

[TomInTib]

10. I know what you mean...

I remember 'way back before my son taught me how to post, here.

I would scan and read in wonderment all the divergent ideas and idealism here.

Gone.

Gone.

"lockstep"? Try "knee-jerk".

Narrow, sharp and short.

[Bluebear]

12. The one where gays were asked to wait until later to get their rights?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2478823

[NoodleyAppendage]

17. You know that was not my point, but thanks for reinforcing this one.

I expressed concern about the Repukes being handed another campaign issue with which to rally their religious right base, yet this was "re-interpreted" as being against gay rights. The opinion was counter to yours, but rather than engage in reasoned discussion about it, I was vilified as being bigoted and a Repuke shill. The fact that my family was personally touched by AIDS or that I have very close gay friends and family members did nothing to sway the reflective tendency to label and name call because I expressed an opinion counter to the "group think."

J

[Bluebear]

21. The point is, can you try to be a team player?

Instead of bemoaning the gay rights decision before the ink is dry? Instead of being quick to join the Republicans in deliberately misconstruing Kerry's remarks?

You fuss that you are not allowed to be "out of lockstep" and I would say one week before the election, LOCKSTEP!!! There is plenty of time afterwards to get all your pet agendas on the table, for now we would like to win this election.

[NoodleyAppendage]

24. I appreciate your position, but sorry...I will never move in lockstep.

I will support Democratic positions and our general goals, but I will never be told what to think or do by any party. If the Dems start to require such "loyalty oaths," then count me out and I'm moving on to a friendly third party platform.

J

[ThomCat]

73. It would be nice if you could at least refrain

from pushing GLBT people, whom you claim to support, towards the back of the bus in perfect timing with the republicans.

[canetoad]

52. And in a team

a defender knows her/his position and dont rush down to kick a goal. 'Team Player' is such a lame, thought terminating cliche.

[Bluebear]

53. Yeah that's me, lame and thought terminating.

But I'm sure you can appreciate the intent of the cliche one WEEK beofre the election.

[Change has come]

31. don't even bring out the "group think" label

when referring to my life. Don't you even.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

38. ...

:applause:

P.S. I have a black kitty with the little white spot on the chest, too. :)

[Change has come]

43. I love my black kitty

:hi: He (Butch) tolerates me well.:woohoo:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

44. Mine is named Midnight, but she could be called Butch...

I mean, she does wear a black leather spiked collar.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

58. Ugh... tell me about it

[LostinVA]

57. You said it, Bluebear

People in glass houses and all that jazz.

[Solo_in_MD]

13. The big tent is in tatters

and the doctrinaire purists are continuing to slash away at it. I see more and more statements here about if you don't believe a certain way (that they dictate) you can not be a liberal/progressive. It gets really old but sometimes it can be amusing to goad them into a meltdown by calm refutations and logic.

I do my part by trying to sew up the gashes the purists inflict on the movement. If it annoys them, so much the better. I will not let them condemn the rest of us to ineffectiveness and obscurity.

[NoodleyAppendage]

20. Calm refutations and logic. Oh, how I miss those. n/t

J

[tkmorris]

15. 1 week until an election

This is most emphatically not the time to be examining the differences in our party. It's not that I don't value diversity of opinion, it's more that doing it right now is counter-productive.

For the good of all of us I hope people here keep there criticisms under their hat for now. We can talk all you want about the effectiveness of Howard Dean, whether the DLC is the Nazi Party reincarnated, whether Kucinich looks like an elf, or why 'X' can never get the nomination in 2008 because (insert criticism here). But not just now.

See you next Wednesday.

[Erika]

16. Exactly 1 week until elections

Quit it with Kerry and start on the GOP.

[alittlelark]

19. You have been here since late 2005....

... and you miss 'the old days'.



HA! Ha! ha!...........


growing weary of you all.

[NoodleyAppendage]

22. Third screen name. I've been here since 2000 in various forms.

Also, I contribute monetarily to DU.

J

[alittlelark]

26. WHY have you had to change your name.

I have the Noodley Appendage on my van....



I also contribute.... funny that you mention that given that I have a NASTY habit of assailing those who post and do not donate.

I have never changed my name.

[Bluebear]

36. Why on earth have you had three screen names?

Just curious?

[Make7]

37. You were here before it started? Interesting.... ( n/t )

[electricmonk]

40. Been here since 2000? What a noob.

I've been here since 1998.

Not really since the site didn't exist then. I joined January 2002.

"Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas."

[Sapphocrat]

42. Wow, can I borrow your time machine? n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

48. How was DU before it existed? I bet it was pretty flippin' sweet.

Oh and what were your other screen names?

[LostinVA]

59. There were dinosaurs, and ferns as big as houses!

[Quixote1818]

23. I don't think DU has changed

At least not since I have been here. Their has always been infighting. I remember during the elections for the Dem nomination the fighting was much worse than this. Also after we lost everyone was ripping on Kerry and people were fighting.

What has changed?

[w4rma]

25. DU has only changed for the better. I've been here since 2001. (nt)

[BlooInBloo]

27. Your truthfulness and lack of deceit is overwhelming....

Yah, you're right - ANY criticism WHATSOEVER on ANYTHING of Kerry "automatically results in reflexive name calling..."

What a goddamn genius.

Boy, I miss the good ol days off DU where people wouldn't lie about the other side's view, and address a disagreement honestly. Now THOSE were the days.


EDIT: Oh - and I don't call those DUers "concern trolls," "Freepers," or "bad Dems,". Just cowardly-huddle-in-the-cellar-peeing-themselves-til-the-storm-passes-useless-in-a-fight-wusses.

[wickerwoman]

28. It just gets boring reading the same things posted over and over again...

There seems to be an almost Pavlovian response to some threads. Any time Kerry says anything even remotely firey ten people jump in with "Wish he'd said that in 2004..." YAWN... What does that have to do with anything he's saying now? We know damn well that there has been a media blackout on anything challenging any prominent Dems have said for the past seven years and yet still the same lazy, google-challenged posters insist that Kerry hasn't done or said anything worthwhile ever.

Criticize Kerry fine... there's no requirement that you like him. Just don't post the same easily-refuted defeatist bullshit ***EVERY*** time you see his name in a thread.

[alittlelark]

30. WTF?!? Why do you attempt to divide us!?!?!

You have been here for almost a year w/ few posts..... you are aspiring to tell us how far apart we are? Your posts are generally divisive, but this one is brilliantly so.


WTF???


HONESTLY.... WTF?

[LostinVA]

60. Yup, this one, s/he led the "Piss on the NJ Victory" brigade last week

Very telling...

[Kickin_Donkey]

32. Yeah, right ...

Your GOP talking points, under the guise of the "big tent" or "not marching in lockstep," no matter how high-minded you want to sound, should NOT be tolerated in a Democratic forum.

If you were a real Democrat instead of a gadfly, you'd get with the program and hold your fire for the sake of the team before a big election. Your ripping of Kerry serves NO purpose but to help Republicans. But, no, you revel in the circular firing squad and aim your gun at Kerry, who is on our side, and anyone who backs him on this issue. Not only that, you call US the fascists (on another thread), meanwhile siding with the real fascists, the Republicans.

You talk about the "old days" -- yet you've been here a little over a year? :rofl:

I remember the REAL old days back in 2001 (although under this poster name, I signed up in January 2004). Back then, although there were flame wars, there were mostly people who actually believed in helping the party, instead of sky-is-falling, afraid-of-how-the-Republicans-will-react cowering faux Dem numbnuts more intent on instigating flame wars for their own ego gratification or amusement (under the fatuous, unctuous guise of "not marching in lockstep").

If you march with the Republics on this, EXPECT to get flamed.

Get over yourself.

[alittlelark]

33. OK..... way weird and DU supportive post

I don't get it.


I got the 'talking points' but I Missed the rest of the point.

[Erika]

39. John Kerry is a great guy who did/does his best

Why are we trying to hang him rather than the GOP?

[Roxy66]

34. This needed to be said...thank you

I agree. This is not supposed to be a "group think" forum, but a group discussion forum. I think it is healthy to discuss the pros and cons of current comments and actions by our Democratic Representatives.

[alittlelark]

35. Yet Another non-donating supporter of the divisive position.

Gee.... I guess we should all just acquiesce to the view that we are too diverse to EVER come together?


HONESTLY......WTF?

[Make7]

41. If you really miss it, try here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com">http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.democraticunderground.com

It's not very interactive, but it is the "old DU".

- Make7

[blondeatlast]

45. "DU is a discussion site." Exactly. So don't whine to the rest of us because the majority

disagrees with you. Poor baby, I'm sowwy youw feewings got huwt--ON A POLITICAL MESSAGE BOARD. :eyes:

Whining really goes a long way to convinceing the rest of us to see things YOUR way, just as well as it works for small children. :sarcasm:

Feel free to pity yourselves after we get some power next week.

[Kiouni]

50. Its hard to listen to both sides

when one is just yelling.

[canetoad]

47. Kricked and omended nt

[TheWraith]

49. Uh, what?

As far as Hillary goes, we have almost nothing but criticism for her here. To look at DU, you'd think she'd personally disemboweled an Iraqi child on live TV.

I'm not hugely in love with either of them either, but acting like there's no place for criticism for them is a bit unrealistic. In this case, though, I do think the Kerry thing has been beaten to death with a sledgehammer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I Thought It's OK To Bash Hillary But Not Kerry.

To me that's ironic because they both supported Bu$h's war when it was popular and Kerry lost to Dimson by three million votes...


I could give a rat's ass what he said but if he cost one Democratic seat in the House or Senate I'm pissed.

[earth mom]

61. Why post this thread?

The majority of people around DU don't agree with you about Kerry and yet you have to post a thread complaining about it. Hmm.

So you wanna know why you are being called a freeper?

Let me spell it out:

To criticize Kerry, Hillary or any of em for playing politics, for ass kissing, for mealy mouthed acquiescence is one thing.

But to NOT support a dem like Kerry who is standing up in a powerful, strong and righteous way to seriously kick the rethuglican ass of the god damn greedy criminal bastards who have been lying, conniving and cheating this country and it's people for years-reeks of freeperville.

And I say that as someone who has criticized both Kerry and Hillary for their ass kissing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Let's Be Fair...

Kerry voted for IWR and had no problem with the war when we were winning if we ever were...

[earth mom]

67. And who lied about WMDs? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. My Point Is Neither One Are Saints Or Untainted...

How come "everybody" here knew there weren't any WMDS but Kerry didn't...

He voted for IWR because it was expedient... Just like Hillary and John Edwards...

As bad as Joe Lieberman is at least he believe in Bu$h's misconceived war...

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. Better than republicans? In some way, that's a given, in others,

you all will be challenged to make sure your party does not regress and become a party of cronyism.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. NoodleyAppendage: until next Wednesday, with all due respect

stuff it. Get a clue. Get on the phone and get out the vote and get over yourself. It is not about you or your precious opinions.

[LostinVA]

69. I bow before your greatness

No sarcasm.

[Jacobin]

66. Hero worship, whether left or right is a problem to me

[LostinVA]

70. Your "argument" fell apart when you mention HRC

Even the good stuff she does is attacked. You have your argument re: HRC backward.

[dbt]

71. "Opinions of all stripes" have never been valued here.

Linking to certain sites has long been banned. Discussion of certain topics is not permitted in forums where a topic may be recommended for the Greatest Page OR is allowed to be mocked, derided and derailed in blatant contravention of The Rules.

dbt
Remember The Meeting Room

[Moderator]

76. Locking.....

If you feel someone is a disruptor, please use
the alert button so that the mods can
examine the situation.

PS....I must have missed the golden age
and I have been here since 2001.