Sy Hersh- “There Has Never Been An American Army AS Murderous As The One In Iraq”

[Jcrowley]

Speaking to launch McGill’s interdisciplinary media studies program last Wednesday, Hersh said he had seen video footage of atrocities in Iraq.

“There has never been an American army as violent and murderous as the one in Iraq”

Pulitzer-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh slams Bush at McGill address

By Martin Lukacs

<snip>

Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist and regular contributor to The New Yorker magazine, has been a thorn in the side of the U.S. government for nearly 40 years. Since his 1969 exposé of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, which is widely believed to have helped turn American public opinion against the Vietnam War, he has broken news about the secret U.S. bombing of Cambodia, covert C.I.A. attempts to overthrow Chilean president Salvador Allende, and, more recently, the first details about American soldiers abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

<snip>

He described one video in which American soldiers massacre a group of people playing soccer.

“Three U.S. armed vehicles, eight soldiers in each, are driving through a village, passing candy out to kids,” he began. “Suddenly the first vehicle explodes, and there are soldiers screaming. Sixteen soldiers come out of the other vehicles, and they do what they’re told to do, which is look for running people.”

“Never mind that the bomb was detonated by remote control,” Hersh continued. “ open up fire; cameras show it was a soccer game. About ten minutes later, begin dragging bodies together, and they drop weapons there. It was reported as 20 or 30 insurgents killed that day,” he said.

<snip>

“In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby killers, in shame and humiliation,” he said. “It isn’t happening now, but I will tell you – there has never been an army as violent and murderous as our army has been in Iraq.”

http://www.mcgilldaily.com/view.php?aid=5450

[SaveOurDemocracy]

1. I've been waiting to hear from Sy Hersh...

Last week someone posted that he received (or was to receive) copies of the newly released videos and pictures ... sounds like a horror.

Just remember ... the pace and tone of an army is set by the commanders, not the enlisted men and women. Look at that one soldier we heard about today ... She opposed the unnecessary violence and torture and felt her only option was suicide.

How many lives lost and ruined on every side?

[Bruichladdich]

54. here is another massacre, not by Hersh but by Italian TV

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/en/video.asp

it shows that the army used weapons of mass destruction, like white phosphor and napalm related MK 77.

ITS A SHAME!!!

Bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq??? What a thrilling lie!

[Postman]

2. This war is soo wrong.

Bush/Cheney should be arrested.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. He needs to get some perspective.

And to look up some of the things the Confederates and the Unionists did to one another in the civil war, for one thing, and the claim that there have been more atrocities per capita in Iraq than in Vietnam or Korea strikes me as very, very suspect indeed.

[WinkyDink]

4. Maybe Mr. Hersh HAS done his homework?

[mom cat]

9. He always does.

[quiet.american]

5. Um... suspect of what? n/t

[The Count]

6. Why? You have better first hand knowledge than Hersh? Please share.

So far, no one even dared discredit him (like they do with all their critics) - that's how respected this man is.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. I evidently have better knowledge than him; first hand has nothing to do with it.

I know of, and a little about, Bloody Bill Anderson, and the Mi Lai massacre, and a little about the treatment of native Americans by the US army.

Anyone who tries to claim that anything that has been done by the Americans in Iraq is worse than, or even comparable to, e.g. the Trail of Tears, is not displaying any sense of perspective, respected or worthy of respect as they may be.

[Chomskyite]

15. So you are claiming knowledge of all that has gone on in Iraq since 2003, are you?

I think we already know enough to realize millions are suffering (bec. of the destruction and non-reconstruction of their infrastructure) and that hundreds of thousands have died. The comparison is valid on the scale of the numbers alone.

[htuttle]

16. Are you aware of the fact that it was Hirsch that broke the Mai Lai story?

So, I would imagine he's familiar with it too....

:eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. No, I wasn't. He should know better then.

I don't care if he's Confuscius come back from the dead. The claim that the conflict in which US soldiers have been most prone to committing atrocities is the Iraq war is a false one, no matter how well-informed the person who makes it is reported to be.

[Jcrowley]

22. We don't know that it is false at all

None of us have seen the footage let alone actually been there. Sy Hersh has seen far more than any of us and has in particular great insight into Viet Nam and Iraq from very detailed information and footage that neither of us have seen. I would say the jury is still out and also add that in some ways it is pretty ridicuous to argue over degrees of atrocities. What is best to be culled from this is the extraordinary degree of violence and mayhem that has been unleashed upon the people of Iraq.

I would say the individual who broke the My Lai story would be one well worth listening to.

The photos seen from Abu Ghraib was just the soft stuff.

As more reports come in history will decide.

[Richard Steele]

25. So, your statement boils down to "It's FALSE no matter how TRUE it is."

"The claim... is a false one, no matter how
well-informed the person who makes it is reported to be."

Because YOU say so, huh? PFFT.

[Richard Steele]

24. Yeah, you're a regular legend in your own mind.

[Kolesar]

7. The US got the indigenous population down from 4 millio n to about 1 million

By using germ warfare, putting them in concentration camps, and through military action.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. Which indigenous population?

Are you talking about the treatment of the native Americans? Or some other inigenous population of which three million were killed by an American army?

I'm assuming you can't be referring to Iraq, and so you're agreeing with me that American armies have done worse things that they are there?

[Kolesar]

43. Yes. The Delaware, the Iroquois, ....

[Chomskyite]

12. Do you have any records of Confederates or Unionists

. . . shooting indiscriminately and knowingly into crowds of civilians. I have studied the US Civil War at in two graduate programs and did a dissertation on novels about it. I never encountered any account of the indiscriminate shooting of civilians.

Maybe you're thinking of prisoner abuses? There is evidence of this on a massive scale, but it occurred due to local and mid-level negligence. Neither Lincoln (with Sec of War Stanton or Dept of the Army Commander Halleck) nor Davis (assisted in his Dept of War by Judah Benjamin and James B. Seddon) have been connected to the atrocities of Belle Isle and Andersonville.

Love your Inspector Rebus books, though.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. That specific abuse in that specific war, no, although I probably wouldn't even if they did exist.

E.g. Bloody Bill Anderson *discriminatingly* shot quite a lot of civilians, I believe and I'm sure he wasn't unusual, and I would be very surprised indeed if their *weren't* cases of indiscriminate killing of civilians, but I don't have any records of it happening.

I don't have any records of US troops deciding to massacre the entire population of a village or to deport 20,000 people 1200 miles at gunpoint in Iraq.

There have been a great many atrocities in Iraq, but any attempt to go from "many" to "most" or "bad" to "worst" is ludicrous, given some of the competition.

[Chomskyite]

94. Bloody Missouri, upper Arkansas and Oklahoma . . .

. . . were all roiling with partisans. They rode all over. But their doings were freelance. Many were at one time members of either the Union or Confederate armies, but their predations on civilians occurred after they'd left their respective armies.

[Richard Steele]

23. Your CONCERN is duly noted.

[maryallen]

26. Do tell us what credentials you have that rival Hersh's?

[TexasLawyer]

28. Shake and bake

I don't think they were doing shake and bakes with white phosphorus back in the day. They weren't taking out whole cities with MOABS.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4442988.stm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

105. 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War.

655,000 Iraqis have died so far in this war.

[originalpckelly]

11. Sy's being to hard on the soldiers...

I myself often mistake soccer balls for improvised explosive devices.

[roamer65]

13. I am just speechless...ugh.

[lovuian]

14. Iraq is chaos and a mess

Republicans will fail in everything they do

[Zhade]

17. Considering the technology and the attitude at the top, unsurprising.

Distressing, but unsurprising.

[Imagevision]

18. Iraq is insanity -- how would you deal with insanity?

[AntiFascist]

19. Oil greed has driven our leadership to this. n/t

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DocSavage]

35. I guess I missed

the part on the enlistment contract for the head count bonus. Maybe that is why some people are not recommended for re-enlistment, did not kill enough kids. Of course you could always talk to some of the toops that you are talking so highly of and find out the real scoop, or you could always enlist as a medic or a religous specialists, they are non-combatant MOS's. Cause in 22 years of AD service I missed the kill the civilian population training.

[peacebaby3]

46. Hmmm...

Doc:

The "kill the civilian population" training was right after the "we are all torturers and mercenaries" training. It took the place of "how to rescue people during disasters" because nobody needs that stuff anymore and no military mercenaries helped out during last years horrible hurricane season. How did you miss it???

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Karenina]

58. "The chick got in the way..."

American troops are running amok in Iraq and have been since March 2003.
This is a VERY DIFFICULT topic as the TRUTH is too sickening for Americans, who glorify their warriors, to comprehend. Suffice to say that those who make it home alive and somewhat intact will eventually tell the tale.

[peacebaby3]

60. My husband is one of the troops who served in Iraq so I do know

the TRUTH much better than you do!

[Karenina]

67. Dearest Peacebaby,

As I said, this is a VERY DIFFICULT discussion. Your husband did his time. I hope and pray that he is safely ensconced at home with you, NEVER to return to that hellhole the U.S. MIC has created. You cannot know the TRUTH of how American soldiers, many too many, have conducted themselves or been ordered to conduct themselves as your dear one may likely censor himself.

What I know of the troops' behaviour comes from the families of the VICTIMS of it. There is a sizeable Iraqi ex-pat community in my neighborhood and what they have been subjected to is NOT PRETTY. NO ONE need "spare my feelings." When visiting friends I've heard the weeping and wailing from the adjoining flat. When I ask for the TRUTH, I get the unexpurgated version. However, I shall spare you the details as, with time, perhaps your loved one will open up to you and share the TRUTH of what went down in the desert.

This is NOT a personal attack on your loved one. He is no more than a cog in a destructive machine. I'm happy for you and yours that he's back home.

[peacebaby3]

88. Ok, I see. You are actually saying that my husband witnessed

or participated in atrocities, but just didn't tell me. You are a very deluded person!

There are horrible things that happen during a "war" and occupation and that is why this should have never happened, but for you to say something like this and make these kinds of accusations regarding my husband is disgusting and you should be completely ashamed!

I'm thrilled that you know so many Iraqi ex-pats. My husband has some Iraqi friends that he is still in touch with since serving there so I hear a lot of information from their point of view also.

As far as I am concerned this is definitely a personal attack.

[Karenina]

97. Now you're just being overwrought and silly.

There also seems to be a little matter of reading comprehension. My point of reference is from several generations ago. We who were teenies then are getting up there in age; tens of thousands of "our boys" are STILL on the streets. Those who had stronger support systems are JUST NOW beginning to tell the tales 35 YEARS LATER. Some never will and others will spend the remainder of their days in a state of rage.

I don't know you or your husband, nor am I privy to what he personally may have witnessed, participated in or shared with you. That's YOUR business. This discussion is NOT about the two of you. It IS about well-documented atrocities committed by American troops. If it is too emotional a subject for you to engage in without personalizing, "Hide Thread" and "Ignore" are your friends.

[peacebaby3]

99. My reading comprehension is just fine.

You say this discussion isn't personal, yet you make a comment like this:

"You cannot know the TRUTH of how American soldiers, many too many, have conducted themselves or been ordered to conduct themselves as your dear one may likely censor himself."

You are suggesting my "dear one may likely censor himself." Any person reading a statement like that knows exactly what you are implying.

Dearest Karenina,

You made it personal whether you realize it or not.

Doesn't really matter here on a message board though.

Peace be with you, Karenina.

[peacebaby3]

39. Ah, yes...and if you mention that troop bashing happens on this board,

you'll be condemned and asked for examples. Well, here's an example! There's a good follow-up a couple of posts down as well.

[genie_weenie]

40. Damn straight peacebaby3.

maybe I should, like, save this thread, or something.

[DocSavage]

47. I Know that

And threads like this make it all over the internet. Outstanding recruiting tool for the Republican party.

[Ms. Clio]

48. that's just asinine -- nobody becomes a repuke from reading a DU post

your anxious, tender concern is, however, duly noted.

[Puglover]

50. So so many "concerned" folks on DU these days. n/t

[peacebaby3]

52. I am CONCERNED when someone calls my husband a mercenary!!! n/t

[DocSavage]

73. Yeah, imagine that.

People actually questioning Hersh and his ascertations. And on a discussion board no less.

[Puglover]

81. What I was responding to was your post

about "threads" making it "all over the internet and being a recruitment tool" for the Republican party. As the poster above said, it was asinine. Sorry if you took offense but I wasn't trying to be complimentary. That is a far cry from "questioning" Hersh.

[peacebaby3]

55. What he is referring to is that posts like these are re-posted on several

other boards on the internet as examples of "hate the troops." I have read them on other boards. These extreme posts are used to make everyone here look bad, when the troop bashers are the vocal minority on DU. Will it sway anyone one way or another, I certainly can't say, but I do see his point and it's definitely not asinine. I think those of us with loved ones in the military have a duty to stand up to inaccurate generalities about our family members.

[Ms. Clio]

56. no, it is asinine to flatly assert that a post on DU will turn somebody into a repuke

and I really don't care if anyone cherrypicks this board for a few posts they call "troop bashing." Those people and their readers will not be swayed by anything remotely resembling common sense, anyway.

[peacebaby3]

59. We'll just have to disagree because I've met some people in the

military that are fairly moderate, reasonable people who have read or heard something from this board, or other sources, that sounds horrible. While I may explain that those items are cherry-picked, it makes my task of explaining that we don't hate the troops much more difficult. Cherry-picking definitely works with the majority of the American people...they supported going to war based on cherry-picked facts.

[Ms. Clio]

62. odd that they don't get so upset about all the horrible stuff posted on rw boards

or is that all copacetic as along as those racist and bigoted nutcases rah rah rah "the troops?"

[AntiFascist]

65. It is extremely crucial to maintain the support of the military on DU...

if worse came to worse it may be the military alone which decides whether our nation will descend into fascism. Hopefully it will never come to that, but just in case...

Look at all the brave generals who have come forward and are openly criticizing the President for his handling of the war? The anti-war movement does not want to lose this level of support.

[DocSavage]

72. There are moderate

democrats out here, that actually believe that the war in Iraq is important, kind of like the ones supporting Joe Liberman. Now, these people have a choice on who they will vote for. If they believe that the democratic party represents the troop bashing threads on this board, they may vote to make sure that democrats that support threads like this are never in power.

IMO, there is a very small minority that justs hates the military so much that they will grab on to any thread or idea that bashes the military. Try to discuss this with them and you may be called a freeper, told to enlist, called a chickenhawk, and even informing them that you are military or have been military is not enough. I am sure with a name like Miss Clio you know all this without me having to explain it, but, just in case your clairvoint talents have left you for the evening.....

[Jcrowley]

76. The important thing

really is the veracity of the article and the story it tells. If telling the truth is misconstrued or portrayed as "troop bashing" so as to avoid the truth or even the possibility of examining the situation then what we have is a mechanism of control that obscures the situation as it is on the ground.

Quite simply this must be reported and anyone who has paid close attention since the invasion is not surprised by this though they may not want to hear it and may contest some of the details.

[Ms. Clio]

77. as usual, someone who mistakes the meaning of my screen name believes himself to be so witty

when you are merely displaying a rather mean-spirited inabilty to recognize my own little pun. It is not "Miss Cleo," it is Ms. Clio, for the muse of history.

I don't want your "clairvoyant powers," either, I want some actual evidence or proof that any of these mythical moderates are so deeply and powerfully swayed by anonymous postings on a liberal messageboard that they will rush out and join the Repukelickin Party.

It's bullshit.

[DocSavage]

79. As Steve Martin Said

Welllll Excusssssseeeee Meeeeeeee. How about this for some evidence. Liberman is winning in CT. I grew up in NE and CT has never been a republican state that I can remember.

There are threads on this board all the time about the conversion of republicans to democrats. No questions asked. Yet when the idea that some democrats may vote republican because of perceived democratic treatment of the troops, it is lambasted.

Hersch can make alligations all day long like this, military, both AD and prior service are going to scoff at him. And again, because some folks deceide to question his assertations, there is a pile on. Thats OK, I can deal with that, haven't been called a NEOCON chicken hawk yet, so I am OK.

My point is that there are a whole lot of bad people in the world. Does the US military have some? Sure. If they turn into animals, we have to assume that the military is going to put a stop to it quickly and punish those responsible to the fullest extent of the UCMJ. But to think that it is US military policy to commit genocide is untenable. There has been enough rotation of forces that "if" numerous atrocities were being committed, it would be out. There is not a lot of room in the Army or Marines for someone that would gun down a kid for the hell of it.

[Ms. Clio]

80. what a load of clairvoyant "assertations"

You are relying on some faith-based rosy view of the U.S. military, while Hersh has 40 years of up close and personal reporting. He has the credibility here; you and the atrocity deniers simply do not. For example, there are numerous video tapes that depict the most horrific crimes at Abu Ghraib; using your logic, just because the proof has not yet been publicly released, they did not occur.

And if you are trying to claim that Lieberman is "winning" in CT because the Democrats are "bashing the troops," then again, I demand that you provide some actual proof for that statement, in the form of a poll or reputable news source.

Your posts really just grow more and more.... interesting.

[DocSavage]

87. I will base

my faith based rosy views on 22 years of active duty service. I think that qualifies me to argue his points of view.

[Ms. Clio]

91. right; well, that hardly makes you an unbiased observer

especially when there is ample documentary, audio, and video evidence to support his assertions.

[DocSavage]

98. You feel that I am biases

I feel that Hersch is biased. I think that I will do a google search of his pro-military pieces. Think I will find anything?

[Ms. Clio]

100. Are you calling him "anti-military," now?

For telling the truth, first in Vietnam, now in Iraq?

Yeah, I'd say you just demonstrated your bias quite clearly.

[DocSavage]

101. Nope, not at all

just wondering if he writes any pro-military stories. Fair question as far as I am concerned. I mean, there is no way that 100% of what the military does is bad or wrong correct?

[Jcrowley]

92. Maybe something else is at work here

The "few bad apples" argument has been used religiously by this administration and yet more and more of these "few" keep turning up.

A good study for this would be to thoroughly read Stanley Milgram's famous experiment/work "The Perils of Obedience."

“The actions of those folks in Iraq do not represent the values of the United States of America.”
- George W. Bush

[brentspeak]

64. Get lost.

[raysr]

27. MERCENARIES!!!!!

Webster:Main Entry: 1mer·ce·nary
Pronunciation: 'm&r-s&-"ner-E, -ne-rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nar·ies
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin mercenarius, irregular from merced-, merces wages -- more at MERCY
: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service


Main Entry: 2mercenary
Function: adjective
1 : serving merely for pay or sordid advantage : VENAL; also : GREEDY
2 : hired for service in the army of a foreign country
- mer·ce·nar·i·ly /"m&r-s&-'ner-&-lE, -'ne-r&-/ adverb
- mer·ce·nar·i·ness /'m&r-s&-"ner-E-n&s, -"ne-rE-/ noun

Feel pity for the 650,000 Iragis!

[AntiFascist]

57. The real mercenaries are the private groups and hired guns...

who go in to "protect" Halliburton and the like.

I have no doubt that most of the troops are there to serve the nation as best they can, but some are starting to question their unelected leader's reason for putting them there. Add to that the stress of being in a suicide-bombing situation for too long and its no wonder so many develop problems with fits of rage. It also makes me sick to read reports that recruiting standards have been lowered, and that neo-nazis are being recruited.

[peacebaby3]

61. Yes, that is a huge problem! My husband had several rather serious

confrontations with these people. There are some very, very bad people in these private groups!

[Blue_Tires]

75. agreed

i've been screaming about the mercs since the war started (Blackwater USA is in my backyard)

[Marie26]

29. They're falling to the wrongness. nt

[Phrogman]

31. I don't know why Hersh had to insult Alcoholics Anonymous, AA has nothing to do with chimpo

For anybody familiar with the program its very obvious that the Decider doesn't have a program.

Any kind of program.

[eridani]

32. As much as I respect Sy Hersch, I have to say--

--Dresden? Tokyo? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? WTF!?!?!?!

[magellan]

33. I could be wrong

...but I think he's talking about the actions of individual soldiers on the ground, not the results of US bombings (which are atrocities themselves but not of the magnitude of a Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima or Nagasaki).

[htuttle]

36. There have been more civilian deaths in Iraq than any of those...

...and there have been more deaths per year in Iraq than during the extermination of indigenous North Americans.

I'd say he can make a case for it. I doubt he does so lightly.

[Roland99]

34. Damn! Hersh is really unloading now.

[mmonk]

37. He should take a different tack.

A military unit is only as bad as those that command it. That is where the blame lies even though soldiers aren't supposed to engage in illegal orders (easier said than done).

[Jcrowley]

74. He does that also

I've heard him speak in person twice in the last few years and there is no more strident critic of Rumsfeld and Bush than Mr. Hersh.

[genie_weenie]

38. Oops! what happened to the GD thread, "Soldiers are concerned

that we equate them with Bush"? And all the Troop love notes posted? This kind of reporting:

If Americans knew the full extent of U.S. criminal conduct, they would receive returning Iraqi veterans as they did Vietnam veterans, Hersh said.

is exactly what I was speaking to when I stated the troops know that most Americans will not support them.

[ContraBass Black]

41. Ordered to fire on running people?

After an explosion, everybody runs.

[Porcupine]

51. And standing people, people trying to get to cover, prone people....

My impression is that after such an explosion the inclination is to kill whoever happens to be standing around. Maybe shell a few nearby houses too for good measure.

Don't believe me? Look at the ammunition use figures from Iraq. Those guys are just hosing down the world around them with bullets.

[Marr]

42. The current war is always going to be the 'most murderous', because

over time, atrocities are swept under the rug and consciously forgotten. My Lai, for instance, still remains in the public consciousness (barely), but it's treated as a unique incident, rather than a common occurence.

[PATRICK]

44. Chaos of Iraq, Chaos of the army

One was utterly predictable. Absent any united force of outside support Iraq would inevitably dissolve, a pressure cooker suddenly unlidded like Yugoslavia. There is no news, no surprise, a huge duh factor that should make any research into its likelihood superfluous at taxpayer expense.

The OTHER slide to chaos is one we knew all about in Vietnam. Oh yes, the "domino" theory(more like complicitous Rube Goldberg machinery), the march of communism and the inevitable victory of North Vietnam, absent any temporary Western stopgap, was also predictable, but it was exacerbated into the tragedies in the expanded "domino" fear by the fear itself. Cambodia, Thailand, scarred and percolating even to the present day.

The other slide is the political and corporate manipulation of the US military. Armies march to the orders of monarchs and businessmen sometimes with missionaries thrown in(the morons in office threw THOSE into the toxic stew too). Sophisticated grand armies are used because they usually are easily superior(monarchs and businessmen being in the main shrewd cowards) and can "do the job". What is neglected is that no army is fit for the task of long term occupation. Conquest is achieved by local puppetry and already, in an exploding chaos situation like Iraq, such fond expectations are idiotic before they are even conceived in febrile dreams of greed and chickenhawk power lust.

The troops and the generals, none of them have a united or clear picture of what to do, much less hope, much less single leadership, much less practicality. Open ends and a thousand imaginations and the daily job of survival and inappropriate problem solving stop at the moronic frozen Cocytus of the WH, where fantasists gnawing their own heads shove aside BOTH sets of chaos for super goals of mean political advantage and geopolitical shopping carts filled with the world's money. The only order is the connection itself between those who set off both sets of inevitable chaos and orchestrate the symphony of despair and hate to create... a separate music with a false title. And that artful music, that orchestration, is the be and end all of the encapsulated double, triple chaos, the spinning damned souls whirling within are not supposed to escape. It would dissolve the only "reason" the mess possesses, the only "order". That all things serve Bush, synonymous by dynastic desire with the petty, inferior, oppressive set of would be ruling plutocrats.

This is the supernatural hell that the MSM and the equally trapped(in death,, debt, self-mutilating chaos) American public spiral around in kinder gentler levels of disconnect and relatively less suffering. Yet all theses servants and torturers and tragic figures, all these denizens whipped on by the whims of a handful of posing dolts are humans with more intelligence, better goals, better sense of life and survival, more actual freedom and choice, than the puppeteer simpleton crooks they entitled and tolerated rather than challenge directly. What mighty, trapped super being is flapping his wings to drive the repeating drama of the Inferno? No we have crooks flapping their jaws surrounded by messengers most people despise all vulnerable to human law. This is not a job for messiahs or archangels or Last Judgments. It is a matter of law and accountability. A simple notion like food, shelter and health care that the entire human race cannot concentrate on long enough to stop being unnecessary, witless and confused victims.

An army that represents the most clear cut and trained organization is led into an impossible situation and abandoned and confused to match it, not even try to subdue it. It all comes from the trigger men safely enthroned in their Coup. And like Milosevic who gloried over the ripe chaos of his homeland, they should be one and all, arrested, tried and connvicted... here and in the courts of the world.

[gulfcoastliberal]

78. Beautiful... words, message, post.

This entire fiasco was soo predictable - the balkanization a la Yugoslavia, the impossible victory over guerrilla fighters... the "terrorists"... I guess we were "terrorists" back in 1776 for not fighting the British in square formations. I wish I could recommend your post, because it speaks pure truthiness.

[ikojo]

45. Good thing Mr Hersh is not an elected

Democratic official...he'd be apologizing all over the world for speaking the truth.

[ECH1969]

53. I guess the US Army was less murderous during the

US-Indian Wars. ummmm ahhhhh

[goforit]

49. I am so ashamed of this era.

[brentspeak]

63. Talk about your troop-bashing moron

Sy Hersh deserves to have a giant bird turd dropped on his head.

[fujiyama]

66. Do you have something to say about the substance of the article

or do you just want to bash Hersh? Personally, I'm glad someone is keeping track of atrocities we have committed over there.

While his statement is likely an exaggeration (the sad truth is that the US military has been involved in other murderous and brutal situations), the simple fact is that atrocities are being committed, and there is little outrage about it...and there is little if any accountability either. Instead this sort of behavior seems to be actively encouraged this time by top ranking officials and the administration itself.

In a case like this, it's important for everyone to get some perspective. When people are caught in such a terrible situation where you're near a vehicle exploding, some are bound to go crazy and if you have weapons in hand, massacres of civilians is very possible. And ultimately, those that murder innocent civilians are responsible for their own actions. That isn't troop bashing. I have a friend there, and I know he's not a murderer. He isn't there to go murder women and children. He didn't particularly want to go. I know he'd rather be back here watching sports games, hanging out at the bar, and finishing college. Those that assume that all over there are gung ho, idiots, likely haven't met any that have served or trained.

But sometimes the worst happens, whether it's intended or not, in a situation as terribly chaotic as this one and hundreds of thousands of civilians have ended up dead. It seems likely that the toll is over a half million people at this point. Either way, I'm glad someone is reporting on the uneasy and very uncomfortable truth.

This country is failing the thousand serving abroad. Many thousands will come back to nothing as well - no job and inadequate health care, either hardened to the point of absolute coldness (as we see with a few murders that have taken place) or simply so distraught with what they've seen, they cannot bear the memories any longer (suicides are also a problem).

[JohnyCanuck]

68. Well then, have a giant bird drop a load on this soldier's head

as well.

Move Over G.I. Joe and Han Solo
Sgt. Ricky Clousing, Peace Action Hero
By Elizabeth de la Vega

SNIP

As a tactical interrogator assigned to question detainees at the scene of infantry raids, Ricky did not witness the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. What he did witness, however, was hardly less horrifying: American soldiers indoctrinated to view Iraqis as less than human, as "ragheads" or worse; American soldiers out on the streets of the Iraqi capital ramming the cars of Iraqi civilians for sport; American soldiers laughing as they slaughtered the livestock of local farmers; and American soldiers shooting an Iraqi teenager who had simply made a wrong turn.

Ricky was on patrol when he saw a boy, "probably 18 years old, a small maybe high-school age kid" turn down a road his unit was attempting to secure. The teenager, Ricky said, was quite visibly terrified at the sight of "a whole bunch of Americans with big weapons" staring him in the face. He started turning the car around, but didn't get very far. This is how Ricky described what happened next:

"One of the soldiers in the turret of the humvee behind me just opened up fire on the machine gun on the vehicle. As the vehicle was turning away, all I heard above my head was "pop, pop, pop, pop." This was my first deployment, my first combat experience was that moment right then, and just the sound of machine guns going off over my head. He popped about five or six rounds in the side of the vehicle. Myself and two of the other guys ran over to the vehicle, smashed the window, and pulled the guy out to provide first aid on him… I was looking down at this kid who had just been shot in the stomach for no reason really -- he was trying to leave…I was still just standing there in shock, looking down at this kid, and he looked right up at me. And his mouth was foaming. His stomach was falling out in his hands… I was looking down at this kid, this young boy who was just trying to drive around town and took a wrong turn and tried to go the other direction, was shot at and killed, and I'm looking down at him now. And we made eye contact for about five seconds, and he just looked at me with the most empty, terrified look in his face that will never leave me in my whole life I'm sure."

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=134536

[peacebaby3]

96. Interesting that you mention Sgt. Clousing.

There was an effort on this board to get people to write and send magazines to him. It's my understanding that the threads dropped like rocks and the people on this board that organized it were disappointed in the lack of response from DU. Are you participating?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. If it's true, it's not bashing

It's a reason to get the hell out of there and to put GW Bush and his whole sorry band of oil-soaked robber barons on trial for war crimes.

Yes, war crimes. Waging agressive war, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity. Sound familiar?

According to the standards established at Nuremberg, the U.S. is guilty of war crimes, and all your right-wing-style reflexive "support of the troops" isn't going to change that fact.

I wish Americans would grow up and realize that patriotism is NOT the same as militarism.

[Jcrowley]

70. Not exactly

a convincing argument.

His book The Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House won him the National Book Critics Circle Award and the Los Angeles Times book prize in biography.

His work first gained worldwide recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting.

Pretty good credentials for a moron.

[Karenina]

71. For telling the TRUTH???

:eyes:

[genie_weenie]

82. We're 12-18 months away

from the Iraq Vets to be the spitting image of their biological and spiritual fathers, the Vietnam Vets.

What really hurts... is that the American citizen can expect and demand that those with the least power do the worst work and suffer the most evils of the world today.

For everyone who is ready to condemn the Troops for the atrocities in Iraq you are morally the same as those who state the Poor are poor because they don't work hard enough or some other Social Darwinism variant.

If you are convinced the US is wrongly in Iraq, stand up to the machine with your blood, sweat and bodies to end it. But if all you're going to do is rail invectives on message boards you are giving your consent for this to occur.

So instead just admit you are afraid of the Government and it's power or you have other interests and are unwilling to face down the terror you have allowed.

[Jcrowley]

83. Not sure

if you are just speaking broadly or if you are being specific.

There are numerous non-sequitirs in what you are stating. It's also impossible to know what people have or haven't done and what they are currently doing to stand up to the war machine that steals so many lives, 600,000+ Iraqis at present.

Seems odd that the criticism here is not really leveled at the author of the article and a cogent argument being made to refute the author's position. If what he is saying is true, and he is very meticulous in what he says, no matter how painful it may be it must be confronted. And if what he says is true, and his credentials are extraordinary, I certainly don't support the individuals involved with these atrocities, I don't support the individuals who made the policy decisions and I don't support the entire apparatus.

[genie_weenie]

84. The Iraq vets are going to receive the same

treatment the Vietnam vets did. It's not simply a case of beginning spit upon literally. The figurative spit upon is much more powerful and more hurtful.

The VA doesn't have the money to provide for the vets. The VA also loses 24 million vets personal data.

David S. Chu and others have stated plainly the returning vets are hurting national defense by taking too much money from the budget.

How many homeless vets, how many vets who drown themselves in destructive behaviors; booze, women, drugs, fast vehicles, dangerous stunts, random fights...

I argued 2 weeks ago in a thread which was drowned quickly that the US populace really doesn't support the troops and the troops know this. Here’s the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2453271

[Karenina]

85. You are corrrect.

Appeal for Redress threads drop like stones too. Ehren Watada, Kyle's on the lam again... 300 responses to some media thread about made-up shit.
THESE GUYS ARE FOR REAL...

[genie_weenie]

89. You stated earlier

When I ask for the TRUTH, I get the unexpurgated version. You're right. Some bad shit went on down by the Euphrates.

What really hits me... is... no one is willing to look in the mirror. The truth is Americans have allowed this to go on. To be sure a well financed and long running campaign has been on-going in America to keep the citizenry docile, content with their station, subservient to Authority figures (especially "Elected" Officials), wage slaves, pre-occupied and afraid.

And so what's going to happen? Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rummy, Gonzalez, Rice and more will be inviolate. They will be celebrated, guarded and paid millions of dollars in speaking fees and government pensions for the rest of their lives. The Americans who feel anger over Iraq will want to vent and the weakest, mentally shattered, unprotected, unappreciated veteran will be an easy target for ridicule, hatred and disgust.

And the machinery will roll on, absorbing BILLIONS, grinding up young men and now! Women too! Ahh, progress... While the Master Class sits back and enjoys the protection of the Machine they have set up...

I must have watched Breaker Morant about 30 times while I was over there last. The Equalizer gave a fantastic performance as Harry Harbord Morant.

It really ain't the place nor time
To reel off rhyming diction -
But yet we'll write a final rhyme
Whilst waiting cru-ci-fixion!

[Jcrowley]

86. Yes I know all of this

Well I started and then stopped no need for the personal story here. And yes of course the troops are treated like refuse when they return but less by people than by the very same machine that grinds up up to begin with.

But again I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that these revelations from Hersh should be kept under the rug? Are you refuting what he is saying and if so please do so I'm open to that but haven't seen anyone attempt it so far. I'm certainly not sure what anybody means when they say "support the troops" it's become this very nationalistic, reflexive slogan and I'm not much for that, best to question things rather than accept the slogans put forth.

Dahr Jamail is reporting much the same thing.

I'd be interested in your analysis of the article.

From Chomsky:

"Support our troops - who can be against that, or yellow ribbons - who can be against that?

Anything that's totally vacuous and diverts, after all what does it mean to be in favor of .. suppose somebody asks, do you support the people in Iowa, can you say I support them or no I don't support them. It's not even a question it doesn't even mean anything. And that's the point of public relations slogans like support our troops is that they don't mean anything, they mean as much as whether you support the people in Iowa.

Of course there was an Issue -- the issue was do you support our policy but you don't want people to think about the issue that's the whole point of good propaganda, you want to create a slogan that nobody is gonna be against and I suppose everybody will be for because nobody knows what it means because it doesn't mean anything, but it's crucial value is it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something. Do you support our policy and that's the one you're not allowed to talk about."

[genie_weenie]

90. No, the truth must always come out.

And *usually* does.

It's just who bears the responsibilty and the blame? Is it Bush, is it all Americans, is it the officers in charge of the platoons, is it only the grunts who actually pulled the trigger?

Support the Troops is naive, simplistic and defensive Nationalism. But, the issue is who is going to have the anger and hatred vented out upon them when this whole monstrous thing is finished? I believe it won't be the leaders. McNamara, Nixon and Kissinger weren't tried at the Hague and Bus, Rummy, Cheney, Wolfowitz et al won't be either.

And so a large weight of anger will be upon the nation as a cloud and the people it will be taken out upon will be the weakest ones, the broken, impoverished, menatlly scarred vets.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2542366&mesg_id=2557603

[peacebaby3]

93. The problem with what Hersh said is that it should be, "There has never

been an American Administration as murderous as the one who invaded Iraq." Instead he places all of the blame on the Army which includes hundreds of thousands of men and women who have served in Iraq and probably never fired their gun.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread deny that horrible things have happened and some we may never know about, but to blame all the troops (I'm assuming he uses the term Army generally and includes Marines, Sailors, and Airmen)is wrong.

I have a great deal of respect for Sy Hersh and have read quite a few things by him. I think he is reporting accurately. In this situation, I think he should have let the evidence speak for itself without any extra commentary. One thing I definitely gain from reading this is that the troops are stuck in a crazy, chaotic occupation and participating in guerrilla warfare and we need to get the hell out for the sake of the troops and the Iraqi citizens!

[Jcrowley]

102. He's pretty consistent

If you've ever heard him speak at length in person you'd know that he does indeed recognize that the troops have been put into an inferno and he does squarely place the blame at the top. At the same time there are many very vicious soldiers, it's much more than a few bad apples, who have become that way for a variety of reasons, some of those pre-dating their entry into the Army, and in such a situation as Iraq all sorts of depravity is magnified. Those soldiers who have committed atrocities should definitely be held accountable just as the higher ups should be put on trial. Personally I'd like to see it start with the higher ups including corporate CEO's at the top of the military indusrial complex.

Even in that short article, a small report of his longer speech, he blames the Bush admin, Congress and the media.

"Hersh came out hard against President Bush for his involvement in the Middle East."

"“You have a collapsed Congress, you have a collapsed press. The military is going to do what the President wants,” Hersh said."

[lonestarnot]

95. Damn too late to recommend.

[Javaman]

103. We are jolly green giants walking the face of the earth...

crushing nations and shattering lives. And of the giant itself, it is it's own worst enemy, for when the giant falls, it falls a long way and takes many with it.

[Jcrowley]

104. You said alot there

in few words. That's an admirable quality.