7th Grader Beat Up & Killed At His Fresno School

[stopbush]

On the news tonight. A 7th grade kid was beat unconscious & killed at his Fresno (CA) middle school today by an
8th grader who was a known bully at the school (Alwahnee Middle School). The bully continued to beat on the kid after he was
unconscious. This attack happened right as school let out and was seen by many students who stood there in shock and fear.

My son had a run in yesterday with the kid who sits behind him in English (different school, but in Fresno). The trouble maker is a D-F student who
won't shut up. My son asked him to settle down during the class time given to do homework, so after class, the failing
kid grabbed my son's backpack and kicked it out the door. My son was very upset, but he's afraid to tell the teacher as this
loser kid runs with a gang and my son fears getting beat up. I've asked the teacher to move my son's seat. Why should he
be hassled when he's working so hard to get good grades?

If you've never been to Fresno, don't bother. It's the armpit of California. I'm desperately floating resumes in an effort to get
my family the hell out of here. It's the worst place I've ever lived, and I've lived a lot of places.

On edit: I removed reports of a knife and stabbing from the header & story as there are conflicting reports at this time of whether or not
a knife was involved.

[kiahzero]

1. Incredibly sad

There's entirely too much of a "Boys will be boys" attitude when it comes to bullying. Even worse are the so-called "zero tolerance" rules, which punish the victim along with the perpetrator.

[Erika]

6. Bush introduced violence as an acceptable method

of resolving disputes. This has to flow to all.

This is so bad.

[Solo_in_MD]

10. I think it predates Bush some what...ask the people of Carthage and Troy

That said, at some point violence is the final arbiter, and at time the only thing some people understand.

[stopbush]

14. Violence as a final arbiter in middle school? Yikes!

[enfield collector]

24. unfortunately sometimes it has to come to that. I teach my kids

to avoid it if at all possible, but sometimes you have to stick up for yourself.

[Solo_in_MD]

33. Sometimes...

Consider this real world example:

A middle school boy has a very bad home situation. Low levels of violence with his elder siblings every day, drunk parents, etc. When he comes to school he brings that with them. Its the only he knows how to interact with the other kids. Your daughter was not raised that way, though along the way has studied martial arts for years for fitness and sport (as did both her parents at that age). Her martial arts experience is not well known at school. At the middle school bus stop the boy goes into physical dominance mode. Your daughter stands up to him for herself and a smaller girl. Conflict ensues. Discussions with the school produce nothing. The bus stop is not under their control or supervision. Talking to his mother goes no where and she laughs off violence. Talking with other neighborhood parents you find out this has been an on going problem.

Do you
- Allow it to continue, perpetuating the violence, including that of boys/men beating up on girls/women?
- Have your daughter stand up to him?

We took the latter approach. Next time he got physical, she squared off with him, blocked his attacks, but did not hurt him. A classic, "take away the stick approach". Later that day he walked up to her in the lunch line and in full view of the staff punches her in the stomach. For that he gets a week of suspension. Next time he is at the bus stop he comes after her again. Apparently the week at home had not gone well. Another go round ensues, no damage, but he is still seething. She reports it to the bus driver, the school staff and calls me. I call the school, again no action is taken. I leave work early and pick her up from school. Sometimes it fun to play hookey with your kids. Later I talk to his mother who tells me to f*ck off and that it is all my daughter's fault, but can not say why. Next day at the bus stop he throws a rock at her and then pulls out a mechanical pencil to use as a shank. With our prior permission, she proceeds to beat the crap out of him including breaking several bones.

A parent who was dropping their kid off witnessed it, police reports are filed, prior bad acts were reviewed, school wanted to suspend my daughter..it was a really fun time. When all was said and done, the result was no more violence against other kids at the bus stop, a male was no longer being allowed to attack women and get away with it. The lesson was not only for the perp, but the rest of the kids who suffered through it until it was stopped. Violence countered violence. There are times it is the only way, even in middle school.

A few years later we discussed this with a friend who is a child psychologist. Her insights were interesting. She said that when my daughter stood up to him the first time and blocked vice hitting back, that was most likely what lit the fuse. She had neither defeated him, which he could have accepted, or lost to him. Instead she had neutralized him, something he had most likely never experienced before. He could not deal with the rage that brought. It was downhill from there. She did not criticize my daughter's choice to "take away the stick" since that would normally have been the correct choice, but in this particular case, had she just decked him the first time, most likely the rest of it would have been avoided.

Violence is not always the right answer, but sadly there are times it is, whether it is between children or nations.

[renate]

41. Your daughter is impressive!

Physically and mentally she must be incredibly well trained, to stop him but to go no further (the first time). I'm glad she didn't get in trouble (in the long run, though what a hassle it must have been until it was resolved). Obviously the bully is going through a miserable experience of his own, but my sympathies end where the safety of other kids begins. I do hope that Child Protective Services gets involved as a result of all this.

I'm surprised your child-psychologist friend thought that he could have accepted losing to a girl--I'd have thought that would provoke him way more than a neutral outcome did. Obviously I'm not saying I think she's wrong--she's a professional--I'm just surprised. I guess it goes to show how hard these problems are to solve and how hard it is to predict an outcome.

I just haven't been able to get that 7th-grader out of my mind. What a horrifying, pointless way to die... and oh, what his parents must be going through, knowing what his last minutes were like, knowing that other people watched it happen and and were too afraid to help.... I pray they find some way to cope without losing their sanity.

[Solo_in_MD]

62. His family situation was the key to his behavior

He was the youngest of 3 and the dominant eldest sibling was a girl. I always wondered what if anything child protective services could have done anything in that situation. By the time we ran into them it was most likely too late. This was a number of years ago and we no longer live in that area, so I do not know what happened to them. He never returned to that MS for the rest of the year.

[distantearlywarning]

42. I fully agree with what you are saying.

If I had a child, I would tell them to stand up fully to the bullies the *first* time, up to and including physical violence. This teaches bystanders that they have options other than fear and non-action, and it encourages the bully at the very least to find easier targets (and may put the fear of God into them about messing with -anyone-).

Research in social psychology (my field of employment) supports this approach.

Additionally, I was bullied for several years as a young adolescent. I took my parents' and teachers' bad advice and attempted to "ignore it" for a long time, which resulted in escalated torment. One day I decided I'd had enough and decided to try to kick the living shit out of the next person who bothered me - even if I got beaten up, I wasn't going to be afraid anymore, and I was going to make them work to hurt me.

I had several verbal confrontations following that decision, in which I made it immediately clear that I wasn't going to back down anymore and would go as far as necessary to make them leave me alone. The bullies didn't escalate, and after that I never had another problem again. It was like it just stopped literally overnight. In fact, I was fairly popular in high school.

If I had it to do over again, I would have stood up the very first time at age 12 and said, "Ok, you want to meet me after school, alright. Name the time and place and I'll be there. Even if I lose, you'll pay." I think it would have saved me years of torment (which do affect me to this day - I'm uncomfortable around groups of women and I directly attribute that to my experiences with bullying.)

Also, if I had a kid, I would put them in martial arts classes the day they started public school. Knowing that you have the ability to defend yourself physically conveys a certain confidence and may in fact be preventative medicine against bullies, so you never even get in a situation where you have to throw a punch.

Anyway, thanks for the story. It was interesting. Your daughter kicks ass.

[stopbush]

90. "If I had a child." Your opinion might change if you had one.

Your post assumes that your child would be the victor in a contest that "include(d) physical violence."

Your kid could be lying dead after that first time.

[distantearlywarning]

91. Or...

He could be lying dead after he didn't fight back. Like someone else's kid in Fresno.

Ok, so I don't have a kid.

How about this, then. I WAS a bullied kid. If I had it to do all over again, knowing what I do now, I would have asked my parents if I could have taken martial arts classes at a young age. When I got to my middle school, I would have stood up to the bullies, physically if necessary.

On Edit: My husband told me a story once about being bullied by a significantly bigger kid in junior high. He ignored him for a while, and then finally was forced to fight him. My husband took a few lumps but fought back. The second the bully got hit in the nose and saw the blood, he fell down on the sidewalk crying. My husband pummeled him a few more times, and then said, "I told you I didn't want to fight". He was never bothered by that bully or anyone else ever again, because a lot of other kids saw it. He says now that taking a few hits was well worth not having to suffer or be afraid throughout the rest of his teenage years. As someone who was bullied for years and then stopped being bullied after I fought back, I must concur.

[stopbush]

102. The kid in Fresno did fight back yesterday. The newspaper report

I posted said that - according to witnesses - the two "squared off." I'd be willing to guess that - in retrospect -the
dead kid's parents would have preferred that he turned tail and ran home.

BTW - my son took Tae Kwon Do for 3 years and made it to just under a black belt. He stopped 3 years ago, so I don't know if
he still retains his training. I sort of doubt it.

[Solo_in_MD]

110. Training at that age for such a short duration has a real short half life

I am not a big fan of the 3 year junior blackbelt programs some school offer for that reason, but they can be effective, espcially for young women.

[liberalhistorian]

103. Reminds me of that scene in A Christmas Story,

when tame, fearful Ralphie finally had enough of being bullied and harassed by the school's "tough guy", his fear suddenly turns into anger, and he proceeds to beat the hell out of the bully, so angry he didn't realize just what he was doing. The bully goes down immediately and starts blubbering at the very first sight of blood. When Ralphie's mother finally pulls him off and he sees her and realizes what he's done, he starts crying. But the bully never bothers Ralphie and his friends again!

[distantearlywarning]

111. I never made that connection before!

But yeah, it probably was something like that. :)

[Selatius]

45. I was always told to go either-or, not go for stalemate, growing up.

Stalemates, I was told, only make the bully continually ask whether he is actually stronger than you. His curiosity will probably get the better of him, and he will come at you again to settle the question. You win, or you lose, and that's that, but preferrably, you win. If violence can be avoided at all, then it's best you not try to fight at all but get away, but sometimes that's rather difficult.

Having said that though, you did what was best with your daughter. Your daughter adopted measured, guarded responses, and she only unleashed when it became apparent the defensive posture wasn't working. With that said, it's rather sad your school did NOTHING and put your daughter in jeopardy.

[Solo_in_MD]

58. We actually gave her express permission to hit back

She had always been told that unless it was very serious, she was never to hit back. When she did hit him, it was only with our expressed approval. I had expected her to knock the wind out of him and that would be that. When he went to weapons is when it got ugly. Like most fights it was over in seconds according to the parent who witnessed it. She ended up breaking his nose with a punch on his first lunge and gut kicking him and inadvertently broke is arm in trying to get him to let go of the shank (arm bar) after his second lunge. She then stepped back as he went down. Nothing really surprising in that either. Those were basic moves she had practiced for years. When you get into a high stress situation like hand to hand combat your training takes over. Not quite like autopilot, but close.

The only thing the school did was to come after her...it was really disappointing. She went on to school later that day. Word had already spread about what had happened, though much of it was false. Admin stopped her from going to class and put her in solitary ISS. She refused to discuss any of it with the school at our direction which also pissed them off. At one point the principal had told her that if she did not tell him exactly what happened she would never be allowed to go to school again. He also said they were going to suspend her with the intent to expel for hurting another student so badly. She was in solitary ISS for the rest of the week until the police report came out and said self defense after being attacked with a weapon. Eventually a staff member told me that the principal was concerned about others challenging her on school grounds and a couple of others thought she might be "a loaded gun waiting to go off". Her refusal to discuss the matter did not sit well either. All of this was after they had refused to take any responsibility for the bus stop environment and even refused to listen to complaints (to avoid having constructive knowledge). Our position was that if it was off campus it was out of their purview, the same position taken by them previously. In the end nothing came of it at school.

[liberalhistorian]

105. That's what pisses me off the most about

these situations. Time and time again, the administration does absolutely nothing, then blames the victim when he/she finally fights back. It's such total bullshit. My parents had to deal with that many, many times over the course of their teaching careers and it always pissed them off. They're very glad they're retired now. Well, my mom is, anyway, my stepdad now has early Alzheimer's and reallay doesn't remember anything about his career anymore.

[cally]

54. It does not work if a child is not physically strong

I'm glad your child was able to stand up for herself, but my child has mild cerebral palsy (very mild) and was bullied. I know you didn't imply that this is the solution but I want to remind all that your daughter's response will not work for many victims. My daughter had martial arts training but there is no way she would have ever been seen or able to fight a physically fit opponent. Maybe now that she is much stronger. I think it's too simplistic to hope all can physically fight bullies. I think we as a society need to protect all and make the valued social skill.

[Solo_in_MD]

71. This started when she stood up for a smaller child

but you are quite right, not everyone can stand up to attackers without help, and the school was actively refusing to do anything about it since it was off campus. However after my daughter took him out, they tried to punish her for acting self defense. You have to just love educrats.

Parental options are also limited. It is possible to overly protect children, especially those with medical issues. However, they want and need to be able to interact freely and effectively with their peers. Its a hard part of parenting. Making it harder is that no two children are a like, and what worked for one may not work for another within the same family.

On a inflammatory tangent, given the disparities between women and men physically, is it any wonder that some of us feel that the current over zealous gun restrictions are fundamentally anti-woman? Firearms are often the only effective defense an weaker adult has against a physically superior aggressor.

[Pithlet]

113. Anti-woman?

You've definitely lost me there, and I'm a woman, and a parent of a special needs child. There's nothing even close to over zeal with current restrictions to begin with. No, gun laws aren't anti-woman, but pro men-and-women-and-children-without-bullet-wounds. I'm not anti-gun and I don't want to see them flat out outlawed, but I refuse to buy into the fear mongering that is the basis of the pro-gun movement. Removing restrictions on guns makes us all less safe, no matter our physical strength and capability. Not to start a gun flamewar, but that's an argument that's hard for me to pass up without countering it.

Now that that's out of the way, I hate reading stories like the OP. My son is only 5 and in a special ed class, but the goal is to eventually mainstream. I really worry about the bullying. I was bullied growing up, and it was horrible enough as an able bodied kid.

[SmokingJacket]

70. Wow.

I was tormented and physically pushed around so much when I was a kid, and no one ever lifted a finger to stop it. How I wish I could have stopped it like that.

Violence might be the only answer in some situations... but it *shouldn't* be. Every effort should be made not to let situations like the one you described get to that point... but schools are nervous to step in...

[Throckmorton]

89. What I don't understand is,

what was your lawyer doing while all this was going on? Surely you had him served with a restraining order, and sued both the school and his parents. After the first violent attack, thats what I will do. But then again, I am very rich.

[Solo_in_MD]

98. Mostly because I hate lawyers even though my brother is an attorney

and I am quite fond of him.

Seriously, adults should be able to work together to solve problems. Going to court because Johnny won't leave Jane alone at the bus stop seems silly, and it would have screwed the school up as well (forced him off campus). Silly as it sounds to some, we were trying to be good neighbors and work withing the community. We were literally dumbfounded that he would go after her again after he was suspended. Also restraining orders tend to be damn near unenforceable anyway. That said, we were contemplating asking for one when it blew up. First incident to his trip to the ER was about two weeks, including the week he was suspended.

People tend to project themselves into/onto others. Its human nature. We really could not comprehend a child that far out of control with uncaring parents and a school more interesting in dodging bullying issues than dealing with them. Arguably we learned more out of the incident that our daughter did. Had something like that occurred with our other children, we would have been quite militant, and gone the legal route early and often.

[Tulum_Moon]

61. Sorry........

But Fresno has been the armpit of the whole country for some time. Before I ever heard the name gwb. The OP is right about that place. I never stop there for any reason!

[malaise]

83. BIngo

and even if this predates Bush, it is much worse today.

[liberalhistorian]

99. I'm sorry, but this kind of thing has been

going on in schools since time began; it's just more publicized now and people are more aware of it. My parents were teachers for nearly forty years, they can definitely tell some stories. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Bush; blaming him for this is like blaming Clinton whenever someone engages in oral sex, which also has been around since the dawn of time.

The problem is that there are still far too many principals, teachers and administrators who don't take bullying and harassment seriously and, even worse, often blame the victim for being too thin-skinned, wishy-washy, etc. That's criminal in this day and age, frankly. And people need to realize once and for all the tremendous damage often done by bullying and harassment in schools. My question is, where the hell were the teachers, principals and administrators in this case? Why was this permitted to continue in full sight of everyone after the first punches were thrown? Nothing can bring a child back, but if I were the parent or parents, I'd sue that school's administrators up one side and down the other until they'd live inside a courtroom.

[Ariana Celeste]

121. Tell that to the kids that shoved me around school

during the Clinton Administration.

[bluestateguy]

2. We need tough new anti-bullying laws

And we shouldn't be squeamish about expelling bully students from school after repeated or especially violent offenses. Just kick 'em out and them fend for themselves in a state of nature.

[kiahzero]

3. Don't you think that's a little much?

What good does " them fend for themselves" do, other than create more criminals to deal with down the road?

Like my post above says, we need to work on this problem, but that doesn't mean that we should use counterproductive methods to do so.

[bumblebee1]

4. Expel them?

I'd rather see these snot nosed bullies hauled out of school in handcuffs. Have the press outside the school as the police perp walk these bastards out in handcuffs and charge them with assault.

[renate]

25. I agree completely

The kids need more help than a stint in detention can give them. They also need to find out, sooner rather than later, that there are consequences to their actions--evidently they're not being taught that at home, but for their own good as well as for society's, somebody needs to teach them.

And even more importantly, the other kids have a right to go to school and feel safe. How completely awful for the students that are bullied to live in fear--it absolutely breaks my heart to think of what they go through. They're just kids.... :cry:

[NaturalHigh]

114. Absolutely.

There should be consequences for this type of behavior beyond getting to sit at home and play video games. Maybe some quality time in lockup would wake up these little sociopaths.

[kiahzero]

115. Wake them up into a life of crime, you mean? (n/t)

[NaturalHigh]

134. I would hope not...

but I don't believe that these young criminals should get off with a light punishment for assaulting other students.

[Erika]

7. We could be kicked out of Iraq

All things are relevant.

[William Bloode]

38. I think a better idea is things like alternative schools.

Thats what we had here when i was a kid. All of us really hard cases were removed from public school and place in the alternative schools.

Here you had special teachers with special skills in a controlled environment. Many of the rules were more lax than standard school, but the teachers would take you out if you got violent. Also were had to do with a lot less than regular public schools. This way the decent behaving kids can have a cleaner school, and the hard asses can have a place to go for their education.

The one i went to was great. We had some wonderful teachers who made a real effort to help. We had a lot of good liberal programs that came and helped us with outreach programs and such.

[hedgehog]

48. IMO, about 90% of the problems with schools would be solved if

it were possible to identify kids at risk in kindergarten and give them more intensive schooling. I wouldn't limit this to kids who are behavior problems, but also include kids from families that don't understand that an education is a basic requirement for a decent life. These kids need to be socialized to acceptable behavior norms and to understand that basic literacy and arithmetic skills are vital in this society. All too often, these kids never learn to read simply because of all the missed school days. By the third grade, they're headed to failure. Too many think it's perfectly normal to have a baby at 16 and drop out of school. They don't understand that there are other options. I know some people would be uncomfortable about the notion of socializing kids, but that's exactly what went on in the Catholic schools with the immigrants' children. An entire generation of peasants saw their grandchildren graduating from college and moving to a middle class life in the suburbs. Such a program would raise all sorts of questions about race and economic status, and it would be ripe for abuse if not under constant scrutiny.

[distantearlywarning]

53. I don't think it's always about SES.

In my school, the bullies were the rich kids. One jock-type (whose dad owned a Ferrari as a second car) beat up another nerdy guy bad enough to break several bones - this was in my middle school. I was physically bullied in a gym class once by a big girl who obviously had "problems at home", but the vast majority of the girls who picked on me were the "nice girls" (one girl was the mayor's daughter, another was the captain of the cheerleading squad from a upper middle class home).

I think it happened in my school so much because the administrators let them get away with it. They had their ideas about who the good kids were, and didn't let any amount of actual evidence sway their opinions on the matter. It was essentially adult-sanctioned violence, both interpersonal and physical.

[hedgehog]

56. Very true - bullying transcends all economic classes.

I think you'd find that the parents are bullies as well.

[Solo_in_MD]

73. Read up on the environment at Columbine to see the effects of bullying

It was in many ways the seminal cause of what happened. Jock culture gone astray.

[Solo_in_MD]

40. Much of the bullying is done off campus and the schools can do nothing about it

[demigoddess]

112. My school had a strong anti-bullying program

Anyone doing that was removed to another wing of the school where they had classes alone with a teacher. About 5 or 6 boys with one teacher probably specially trained to deal with problem children. Any way, we did not see them , I think they were held a half hour or so after school let out. Bullying was almost unheard of in school. But we were pretty normal other wise. fights were off school grounds and rarely came into the school area. We also had a military private school in town and a problem son could always go there.

[Greyhound]

131. And then what?

Congratulations you've just created another "career criminal".

Discarding people doesn't work, they have this nasty habit of doing whatever it takes to stay alive.

[stopbush]

5. Here's the local paper's take - buried on a back page online!

Boy, 13, dies following after-school fight
By Tim Eberly / The Fresno Bee
11/01/06 19:05:26

A 13-year-old boy died this afternoon after he was involved in an after-school fight near his middle school in northeast Fresno, police said.

The boy, a student at Ahwahnee Middle School, was taken unconscious to Saint Agnes Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead, Fresno police Lt. Randy Dobbins said.

It's not clear whether he died from injuries suffered in the fight or another medical condition, Dobbins said. That's why police are not labeling the case a homicide, but rather a suspicious death, he said.

"If we call it murder," Dobbins said, "it's hard to unring that bell."

http://www.fresnobee.com/406/story/10681.html

The TV news tonight mentioned a knife, but this story doesn't. I imagine the details will come out tomorrow.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Under the eggshell skull doctrine, it doesn't matter if there was medical issue

[devilgrrl]

8. Bet his parents are even worse.

At any rate, I'm sorry about all this, it's really awful. :-(

[seabeyond]

21. my school works really hard not allowing this crap. i am sorry

your school doesnt have control in this situation. my son would be the one being bullied. the kids hate for the parent to go to the teacher. just harsher continuation of problems from what they see

our school will take the kids to iss, in school dentention seperating them from other childrenand if extreme they are out of the school.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. There are real limits on what they can do and what they will choose to do

We had a bad situation in middle school bus stop with bullying. School refused to do anything until there was bloodshed, and then went after the people standing up to the bully. I posted the full story on #33

[sandnsea]

9. I went to Tenaya

I don't remember Ahwahnee being that bad of a school. I went to Wawona too, I think, some hell hole of a school. It was just jammed full, I've never seen anything like it since. Glad we got out of there. Yeah, Fresno has really gone right down the toilet, I can't believe it's the town that was doing voluntary busing and racial integration programs back in the 60's. It's pathetic what a bunch of freepers will do to a place.

Sorry about your son. Middle school is the absolute worst, things usually get better in high school, any high school. In part because they expel the trouble makers faster or just let them drop out. I don't particularly like that approach, but it does make it better for the kids who want to learn.

[stopbush]

12. My son is at Tenaya.

I guess it's changed since you were there.

The HS drop out rate in Fresno is 29%.

[sandnsea]

22. Definitely has

That or I was pretty protected at the time, Sierra & Del Mar were way out in the suburbs when I was a kid. I understand it's built all the way to Friant now. Even so, I grew up in a neighborhood with mixed minorities, religions and even a gay guy next door. Race was never as big an issue as it is there now. Just makes me so sad that things went so haywire.

I hope you will try to get a group of parents together and make change. At least in your school. There should be some kind of bullying program, a uniform discipline program, something that has proven to work and a principal that knows how to set a tone of academic excellence and success. I think one good parent can be a much greater force than a few disruptive kids.

[stopbush]

36. Yes, Fresno is sprawling out into the reclaimed farmland.

The downtown has been deserted. Our Mayor (Alan Autry - you might remember him from a few TV shows like that
Brett Butler sitcom and that Carol O'Connor cop show) is hellbent on reviving the downtown, but it's the usual one-step-forward-two-steps-back
syndrome. Fresno denizens are historically very pessimistic about anything positive happening here. Many people won't even go downtown. They prefer
the security of the big box malls.

Fresno constantly bites itself in the ass. The Fresno Philharmonic had a very well-liked music director who was black and gay. Everybody loved him...until
the local paper ran a Sunday profile that made it clear that he was gay and in a longterm relationship. The Board fired the guy. This led to a number
of the progressive members of the Board to resign in protest, taking their money with them. The orchestra almost went under, and it has struggled
financially ever since as the story got huge play in town and negative publicity statewide. Those donors who left have never come back or have said
they won't come back until the homophobic board members resign.

Fresno is also a big Bible belt area. The fantasy-based community runs rampant here (oh yeah, our Mayor is a born-again and loves talking about it) with
a few revival churches that would embarrass a Baptist. Fresno also has a big gang problem with poverty levels in some sections of the city exceeding the
sorry state of affairs in NOLA. One of the gangs here wears red clothing to signify who they are, so my son's middle school has a total ban on the students
wearing any red at all, including any Fresno Bulldogs sportswear (the Bulldogs are the team for Fresno State. Their colors are red).

As far as the bullying program, the school system has a very strict policy on this, but it's up to the kids to report things and most of them know the law of the playground.
The fact is that when push comes to shove, it's them who are going to get shoved, not the teachers. So, they live in fear and try to get on with their lives.

I'm sure yesterday's fight/murder will only serve to exacerbate the violence in the schools as most students will reach the conclusion that pissing off a bully
will get you killed. Why report the bully when the school doesn't do anything about it and you may end up paying with your life for ratting out a lowlife
who you would rather just avoid?

[sandnsea]

47. Some background

Just cuz. The downtown has always been a problem. They were renewing the downtown when I was a kid. Around 1970 they closed off the streets and put in the walking areas with the fountains and sculptures and whatnot. Most downtowns have ripped that stuff back out, I don't know whether Fresno did or not. So that's not new. There has also always been a racial divide in that African Americans lived on the west side, Fresno was always segregated in that regard; just not as much with other minorities. Weird. I know the city really took a turn for the worse when Autry got in there, the things I hear out of that city council have been awful. I've even written some members a few times, it's made me so mad. The hate is now so entrenched that I don't know what it would take to turn it around. Fresno was an All American City back in the 60's. I don't remember who the mayor was at the time, but he had really grabbed on to a progressive and inclusive vision.

As to the bullying program, if the school doesn't do anything about bullies when they're reported, then they really don't have a bullying program. Kids shouldn't have to report the bullying, it starts from the principal and designated adults identifying the bullies and monitoring them every day. Having a complete hands off policy. Like someone else said, that teacher should have done something about the backpack incident and it's completely unacceptable that he/she didn't. There should also be a very very strong positive reward and reinforcement mechanism, one that creates peer pressure to succeed. It really can be done, and it HAS to be done if we're ever going to turn this country around. I'm not saying it's easy or completely successful, but there has to be something better than what so many kids are having to deal wih now.

[Vexatious Ape]

13. I know how much it hurts you.

We home school our son partly because of bullying.

[stopbush]

15. We could home school our kids, but we've taken a stand to

support the public school system rather than to desert it. In fact, there have been times when
we could have afforded to put them in private schools, but it's the principle of the thing. The
violence and reptilian brain is the thing that scares me.

BTW - with the amount of time a parent has to give to a child after school to work on their
homework and make sure they're learning, you may as well home school them.

[Vexatious Ape]

16. There was a lot of time spent helping with homework. Yikes.

My son, who has Aspergers, was getting A's ( with our help on his homework )but also getting bullied. He was miserable, we had to do something. I know how important public schools are but they are not for everyone. I wish you lot's of luck, I do.

[cally]

59. My child was bullied in Elementary School

I did everything I knew how to protect her. There are repercussions to it to this day. Looking back, I would immediately pull your child out of that school. The bullying may stop or go underground, but it does not end. Give your child a fresh start.

By the way, my college freshman called last night talking about how busy she is. She's trying to get all A's and balance all the friends asking her to do things. This is the child who was shunned in middle school and somewhat in high school. I mentioned above that my child has very, very, minor cerebral palsy. It's enough to be noticed on a grade school playground as the kid who can't keep up. As an adult, she can overcome it with perserverence. She told me that on her rock climbing tries that she knows she'll always take longer to learn physical skills but that eventually she'll get there. Her friends all razz her but she'll just keep trying.

[T Town Jake]

17. Sad business...

...though I don't want to make too much of it, I can't help but wonder about the fact that Free Republic is headquartered in Fresno, and if that doesn't contribute, in a Karma sense, to the hatred and anger in the air around there. :shrug:

Rim-job is certainly a grifter, after all, and when he's not busy fleecing his freeper sheeple, a professional hater extraordinaire.

[MnFats]

18. you may find some helpful info at www.pacer.org

click on 'pacer center projects' and near the bottom of that page, 'pacer anti-bullying project.
this is a good mn. organization but you may find something there that's helpful.
i really hope you are able to resolve this...
i know where your son is....i got bullied and, sad to say, turned around and bullied other kids.
good luck
remember though it seems impossible you have the right to DEMAND a safe school for your child.

[casus belli]

19. Maybe the single greatest enemy to education. Fear.

Kids aren't paying attention if they're thinking about how to get out of school unnoticed at the end of the day. I remember one specific period of my youth living with my father in a not-so-great neighborhood in a South Chicago suburb where I was essentially forced to fight often on the way to, during, and on the way home from school. I was always very confident academically, but during that period of time learning was the last thing on my mind and I grew to disdain school. I would become physically sick on Sundays dreading having to go back. And the fear doesn't go away. You learn to cope with it, but much of the fear I learned during that period is still with me in many ways. Now, with boys who are grade school and pre-school age, that fear has made a resurgence, and I am DETERMINED that my boys will never have to endure that sort of an environment. Every time I hear a parent or relative say about bullying, "Oh, they're just boys, let them work it out" I want to punch them and say, "Is that acceptable? No? Then I'm not teaching it to my kids, either."

It's very hard to find that line, and it has been one of my greatest challenges as an adult and father. I don't want my kids growing up using violence as a means to arrive at solutions, but I also don't want them to be completely passive, knowing full well that the reality is that some day I won't be there to intervene on their behalf. It breaks my heart every day that this world isn't a better place for my boys and on some level, I feel badly for the ruined kids who only know how to torture other kids to relate to or find acceptance in them. I can truly sympathize with what you and your son must be going through and I really hope things get better.

It sounds like the teacher in this particular case needs to be a little more attentive to what's going on in the class. If kids are getting away with grabbing backpacks from students and throwing them out the door, I'd say that this particular teacher needs to step in and be the adult.

Best of luck...

[hedgehog]

44. Anyone who thinks the school day starts at the school house door

is being deliberately ignorant. Kids bring a load of luggage with them.

[Auggie]

20. I would think schools would be much more sensitive to this,

especially in these litigious ages.

[Solo_in_MD]

35. The reverse is true

Due to the litigious nature of people, the school is much tighter about what it controls and what it doesn't. For us it was "until they step foot on the bus". Actions at the bus stop were stricitly not their concern. Only when it came into the school house did they even care or acknowledge it. Literally the administration refused to even hear about it, since it could have given them constructive knowledge of a problem.

[Horse with no Name]

23. Isn't Fresno the home of Free Republic?

If this is the case, it doesn't surprise me one bit.
All the hatred centralized to one location--wonder if this bully is related to Rim Job? Wouldn't shock me one bit.

[DTinAZ]

26. Yes, FResno is the home of FR /nt

I lived in the general vicinity for five years and it is indeed a "pit." At the time, the more well-to-do suburbanites were in Clovis (CA, not NM) and they were representative of all the *worst* stereotypes of snobby burb-dwellers.

DT

[KansDem]

31. Anybody remember "Fresno" (1986)?

It was a spoof on those evening power-soaps like "Dallas," "Falcon Crest," and "Knott's Landing." It starred Carol Burnett and Dabney Coleman. I remember it as being hilarious, full of laughs!

IMDB

Having grown up in southern California and passing many times through Fresno on trips to Yosemite and the Sierra Nevada Mountains, I can appreciate both the comments on this thread and the satire of "Fresno."

edited for word order

[Sequoia]

27. You're right Fresno is horrid.

That's too bad, it's only about 40 miles from the most beautiful spot (Yosemite) in the west as far as I'm concerned. What sort of job are you looking for?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

28. The problem is the school can only do so much

Between the school yard fence and your front door, if that kid wants to harass your son, there's not much that can be done unless you want to drive him to and from school every day.

Kids generally hate it when a teacher steps in and punishes a bully also.......it pisses off the bully and makes the victim feel like a "wimp".

Chances are this kid bullies others as well. Your son needs to make friends with them as there is always strength in numbers.

[ddbaj]

29. Wow...

Too sad. What a damn cryin' shame.

[leftofthedial]

30. this is the Murka the repukes want

might makes right


king george and his cabal are cowardly bullies, setting the example (and destroying public education) for our kids

[MGD]

32. Proof that California gun laws aren't working.nt

[Solo_in_MD]

37. Not sure where you draw that from

since there does not appear to be a firearm involved in this.

The CA firearms laws are oppressive enough as it is. They are rarely enforced, and then disproportionately against the poor and people of color. The laws need to be rolled back, especially in places like SFO.

[MGD]

39. "since there does not appear to be a firearm involved in this"

Precisely my point.

[kiahzero]

72. You think guns would have made this situation better?

Wow.

Edit: Do you think the 7th grader should have been carrying a weapon? I don't even think 12 year olds can legally purchase guns.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. He wants to say that without saying that.

You know, have his cake and eat it too. Get to influence people's minds with bullshit non-sequiturs without being exposed as a blatherer of bullshit non-sequiturs.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Would the absence of such laws have made a difference? -nt

[MGD]

52. Possibly. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. How? -nt

[MGD]

64. It's really irrelevent. The anti-gun laws were enacted to prevent murder and they haven't.

[kiahzero]

65. Gun laws are generally enacted to make murder harder. (n/t)

[MGD]

66. Unfortunately, they make it easier in many cases. (n/t)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Is this school case one of them? If so, why? -nt

[asthmaticeog]

67. Letting 7th graders bring guns to school would be preferable?

You really need to come out and explicitly state whatever it is you're getting at.

[MGD]

76. Well, I'm sure to the dead 7th grader and his parents it would be

however, I'm not advocating arming middle schoolers, I'm simply pointing out an example of gun laws failing to do what they were intended to do, protect people against violence.

"You really need to come out and explicitly state whatever it is you're getting at"
I have already done that once or twice and I'll do it again: California gun laws failed to prevent murder. Rather than shoot his victim, the violent offender simply beat him to death. In conclusion, I only mention it because if he had used a gun, anti-gun activists would have immediately used it as justification for their gun laws as I have seen so many times. What's good for the goose and all that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. You might as well have blamed an earthquake on gun laws.

Or a hurricane. Look at Katrina! It leveled a city! That's proof Louisiana's restrictions of firearm possession failed!

And another thing: yes, in THIS very post I'm replying to, you ARE advocating arming middle schoolers, but you're trying to do so in a veiled fashion. Saying it without saying it.

Only it's not working. People here have BRAINS, as the replies to your original non-sequitur have made painfully clear.

I'm not a hater of guns. What I am is a hater of disingenuous, fallacious propaganda techniques.

[MGD]

79. You have missed my point

purposely I suspect.

"And another thing: yes, in THIS very post I'm replying to, you ARE advocating arming middle schoolers, but you're trying to do so in a veiled fashion. Saying it without saying it."

No, I absolutely, unequivocally, emphatically am not and have not in any way, shape, or form advocated arming middle schoolers. You have attributed that argument to me in order to have something to get bent out of shape about. You don't see me getting bent out of shape do you?

"Only it's not working. People here have BRAINS, as the replies to your original non-sequitur have made painfully clear."

By your own logic then, it is no more a non-sequitur than when an anti-gun advocate attributes a school shooting to lack of gun restriction. This was, is, and will continue to be my point.

"I'm not a hater of guns. What I am is a hater of disingenuous, fallacious propaganda techniques."

Good for you then. I have done nothing to incure your wrath then as my points (not the points you are trying to attribute to me) are perfectly genuine and non-fallacious.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. Quoting yourself:

"Well, I'm sure to the dead 7th grader and his parents it would be"

In other words, "nudge nudge wink wink."

Saying without saying.

[MGD]

101. Listen man, I am not advocating arming children with handguns.

There is no nudge nudge wink wink. I'm only pointing out the futility and absurdity of trying to stop violence by denying second amendment rights to law abiding citizens. Freedoms and liberties were sacrificed for security with predictable results.

[Pithlet]

116. How can you claim that, when this is a thread about a school incident?

You state this as an example of gun laws not working. How else can that be read but that the 7th grader should have had a gun to defend himself? I'm sorry, but there is no other logical or rational way to interpret your first post in this thread. If you do indeed agree that 7th graders have no business carrying guns to school, then how can this incident be used as an example of the failure of gun laws? It can't.

[MGD]

120. I've already clarified this. I'm not doing it again. Read the rest of the posts and figure it out

[kiahzero]

117. Actually, it is more of a non-sequitur.

If the gun regulation in question would have prevented a specific school shooter from obtaining their weaponry, it's not a non-sequitur to bring it up in relation to the school shooting. However, as has been pointed out to you many times, the only way gun laws are relevant to this crime would be if you supported arming 12 year olds.

[kiahzero]

78. Bad analogy

In order for the analogy to work, you'd have to be arguing that this wouldn't have happened but for the gun laws, which is obviously a ridiculous statement, since you claim not to be arguing for arming 12 year olds. If gun laws have a net positive impact (making no impact in some cases, such as this one, and a positive impact in others), it's absurd to argue that the fact that they make no impact in cases such as this one is indicative of their failure.

[MGD]

82. In that case, is it not also absurd to say:

a.) Children are killed in Colorado schools because of lack of gun restrictions?
and
b.) Gun laws reduce school violence?

[kiahzero]

85. Yes

A lack of restrictions doesn't cause incidents like Columbine, so yes, it would be absurd to say that Columbine happened "because" of a lack of restrictions. Whether or not restrictions may have prevented the tragedy would depend on the specific regulations being contemplated.

As for gun laws reducing school violence, that would be absurd because most school violence doesn't involve weapons of any sort.

Neither of these are good arguments against gun laws, however. Environmental regulations, zoning ordinances, or any most other laws wouldn't have stopped Columbine and don't reduce school violence, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. (a) MAY be absurd depending on the particulars of the case being discussed

(b) is hardly absurd. Example: student brings gun to school, but can't shoot it because it has a biometric lock, which was mandated by law.

[sandnsea]

100. One minute fight at Rite-Aid

They aren't sure why the kid died at this point. It really wasn't fair of the OP to say a kid had been beaten to death because that's not clear. In any event, I would hope you don't think these kids should have been roaming the streets with guns. THAT is the damned problem to begin with and where your kind of thinking leads.

[MGD]

104. How is that the problem? This kid didn't die from a bullet,

let alone a bullet from any of the myriad of weapons banned by California's strict anti-gun legislation. IMO, It sounds like he died from a blunt trauma head injury. I say this becuause it happens that way everyday in this country. In the course of a simple fist fight, man hits man; man falls to ground and hits head on hard surface; man dies from traumatic brain injury (or child in this case). Incidentally, my kind of thinking leads to fewer victims, not more.

[sandnsea]

106. Ignore

Too stupid.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiahzero]

109. How would your thinking have saved this kid?

Back to the "I'm not saying 12 year olds should carry guns, but what if they did?" crap.

[asthmaticeog]

108. Are you like, *professionally* disingenuous or something?

Gun laws aren't there to "prevent murders." They're there to reduce and punish gunshot injuries and deaths, and to deter and punish use of guns in the commission of rapes, robberies, etc. The occurrence of a murder in and of itself is insufficient evidence on which to base a claim that all gun laws are ineffectual, because OTHER laws, like those against battery, are there to reduce and punish beating deaths. Ditto for possession-of-a-deadly-weapon laws to reduce and punish bludgeoning and stabbing deaths. I just read that back and it sounds like I'm speaking to a toddler. Am I?

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asthmaticeog]

123. The point is, *nothing* will prevent all murders.

You've been going on and on in this thread as though that's the job of gun laws, to prevent all murders, and that any murder is proof of those laws' failure. You're spectacularly wrong, and wrongness is often a consequence of black and white thinking.

Your straw man tactics, your personal insults, your trolling behavior and your attempt at baiting are noted for the record, though. Have a nice night.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

68. Who said such laws would prevent EVERY type of murder?

Nobody, of course. That's a straw man. A very lame one.

And the mechanism through which the ABSENCE of such laws could "possibly" have prevented this is hardly irrelevant. You made the far-fetched allegation, YOU back it up. I ask again: how NOT having such gun laws would have prevented this?

I'm waiting.

[Hippo_Tron]

124. Nobody ever suggested that Gun laws will COMPLETELY prevent murder

But murders by beating are far less common than murders by guns. Therefore we restrict guns to help prevent the major causes of murder. What you are suggesting is that if people don't have guns they will just beat their victim to death instead, which you would need some evidence to support.

[Selatius]

43. 2 questions: 1. Where the FUCK was this bully's parents? 2. Where...

the FUCK was the school?

There appears to be a history of violence with this bully and other students. Why on God's green earth didn't the school intervene before somebody died? It is a demonstration of gross negligence on apart of the school.

[asthmaticeog]

74. Bullies' parents are often bullies themselves.

Either that or undisciplined and in denial. Either way, not helpful. Certainly still responsible for bringing up a bully, but not helpful.

I'm with you on the school, though. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and the administration almost seemed more interested in coddling the bullies so as not to piss off their parents than in disciplining them. Wimpy kids get thrown under the (proverbial, if not literal) bus all the time, being told to ignore the bully (:eyes:) instead of being protected from the predations of stronger, sociopathic kids. Which gives bullies a feeling of invulnerability, which leads to things like this.

[stopbush]

80. The fight took place off school grounds at a convenience store

parking lot.

That was in the article from the paper that I posted. I couldn't post the whole article
re: DU rules.

[Blue_Tires]

95. those are my questions as well

if this happened right after school was dismissed, there would have been teachers somewhere around there (or police, depending on the school district)

[oasis]

46. Move to the City of North Las Vegas. It's growing by leaps an bounds w/plenty

of jobs. No grafitti, no nonsense tolerated.

Money and Mormons have a big influence in the city's development..

[stopbush]

81. We moved from Summerlin (Las Vegas) to Fresno last year.

BIG mistake that we have really regretted. I would relo back to LV if I could have a job offer in hand, but
Vegas doesn't work that way. You need to be in Vegas to get hired.

I'm still trying, though.

[Greyhound]

130. Yes, police states are so nice and clean.

:eyes:

[nedbal]

does seem to follow jail littering/ gum chewing Singapore ?

[nedbal]

135. does seem to follow jail littering/ gum chewing Singapore ?

[Zomby Woof]

50. Goddamn

:-( That poor kid, and his family...


Fucking Fresno. Run by a Christ-insane Republican mayor - Alan Autry - and the home of Freak Republic. I hope you are able to move your family out of that cesspool. Some good moral values they promote, eh?

[SouthernBelle82]

51. That's really scary

Is there any way you can talk to the principal or assistant principal to see if you can home school your son for a while until things get straightened out with this bully.

[wicket]

57. Horrific

:cry: :cry:

[mondo joe]

60. School bullying is an outrage. We would never expect a person

to tolerate in a workplace what kids endure in schools. In fact, we'd expect an employee to sue if their employer allowed it to continue. And all that despite the fact that the kids are actually required to be there.

Ugh.

[mnhtnbb]

63. Take a good look at Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. Where are the adults?

This is awful, just awful.

[shanti]

97. do you think the kids are that dumb?

of course, they do it after school, away from adults.

[JerseygirlCT]

118. But it says at the school

Which means someone ought to still be watching. Or I would have thought.

If a crowd develops around a ruckus like that, don't you think it odd that no adult person checks to see what the heck is going on?

[shanti]

122. sometimes....

when the fight occurs on school property an adult gets involved. but when it's not on school property, the fight goes on as long as the kids hold out (i'm getting this info right from the mouth of my teen son).

[Sapphire Blue]

88. You might want to check out Operation Respect: Don't Laugh at Me...

About Us

Operation Respect is a non-profit organization working to transform schools, camps and organizations focused on children and youth, into more compassionate, safe and respectful environments. Founded by Peter Yarrow of the folk group Peter, Paul & Mary, the organization disseminates educational resources that are designed to establish a climate that reduces the emotional and physical cruelty some children inflict upon each other by behaviors such as ridicule, bullying and-in extreme cases-violence. It is a unique organization that provides a gateway to broad scale adoption of school-based character education as well as social and emotional learning (SEL) programs.

Toward this end, Operation Respect developed the Don't Laugh at Me (DLAM) programs, one for gra des 2-5, another for grades 6-8 and a third for summer camps and after-school programs. All of the programs utilize inspiring music and video along with curriculum guides based on the well-tested, highly regarded conflict resolution curricula developed by the Resolving Conflict Creatively Program (RCCP) of Educators for Social Responsibility (ESR).

More info @ http://www.dontlaugh.org/default.htm

[halobeam]

136. that link isn't working for me, do you have any more info?

I'm interested. ty

[nicknameless]

92. Helpful information at this site

http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/index.htm

If the teacher won't move your son, IMO, you should go over the teacher's head.
Good luck.

[shanti]

93. middle school....

such a terrible time :(, so many fights. when my son was in middle school, he said there was at least one fight a day, often it was between girls.

when my son entered middle school in the 6th grade, he was promptly attacked by an 8th grader, much bigger than him. he backed off because i'd always told him not to fight. we documented this, and the kid tried it again. i decided to change course and told him that if he did it again, he was to fight back. this time, my son beat the snot out of him, and he did not get in trouble because the other kid had started it (again). it really helped his confidence, and he's not been in another fight since.

[sarcasmo]

94. HOME SCHOOL.

[SammyWinstonJack]

96. I thought were I grew up in California was the armpit: the High Desert

Victorville/Apple Valley/Hesperia. I sure thought it was while I was living there. I got out thankfully, in '92. I still have family that lives there, but I don't visit.

[GETPLANING]

125. Violence is much worse

today than it was when we were in school. When I went to school- 60's- 70's - A fight would end when one was beaten, and either wouldn't or couldn't continue. Today, when one goes down, the winner (and his friends) continue the beating until the loser is seriously injured. Just go to any video website and enter "fights" for a look at how badly they mess up their victims.
I have a son in the 8th grade and I really worry about him. I really feel for the family of the kid who was killed, probably for no real reason.

[truedelphi]

126. This is heart breaking n/t

[4_TN_TITANS]

127. You need some Tennessee....

Just this morning I was thinking about how grateful I am for the school my wife teaches at and my daughters attend. It's got around 1,000 students but still has a small community feel to it. My girls get it all - academics, athletics, liberal arts (music/theatre)... in a non-violent, kid-friendly atmosphere. They can name many past teachers that are now considered friends and they constantly visit them.

Pay isn't that great here and there's the occassional Fundy, but the cost of living is low, the land beautiful, low violent crime, and there's some really good schools and colleges.

[npincus]

128. so sorry, that's terrible.

every parent's worst nightmare.

[Greyhound]

129. I've worked there (3 months of hell with only weekends for relief) and your assessment is right on.

Word of warning, don't let anybody talk you into AZ, it's exactly the same in beige, atrophied, narrow, minds abound.

[benEzra]

132. Bullies also kill by driving their chronic victims to suicide...

Bullies also kill by driving their chronic victims to suicide...

http://www.jaredstory.com/

[Rocknrule]

133. But we all know violent videogames are the REAL problem, not bullying

:sarcasm: