Interesting chemistry

[Horse with no Name]

Was talking to some fellow nurses over the weekend about dieting, foods, etc. and was told this by one of them.
I didn't know this, so can't completely verify if it is true, but we were talking about butter vs. margarine.
She said that margarine was only ONE molecule away from plastic, so how could it be good for you?
Made a believer out of me.
:shudder:

[seabeyond]

1. i refused real butter. married 12 yrs ago hubby insisted on butter

i am a believer and so happy i got off the stuff a decade and half ago

on edit: glad i got off the fake stuff

[madokie]

6. hmmm just had oatmeal and real butter

love the stuff especially the butter I make myself.

[seabeyond]

7. hey

i clarified my post.

we drank the "real" milk too when i was growing up and made the real butter,.... wink

i hear you

a little butter and oatmeal.... all in moderation. i do the same with my chocolate. instead of bad, i embrace and have never had it so easy on not gaining weight. it is when i deprive myself i have problems

[gfnrob]

2. Why the surprise??

We are only a molecule or two from being a chimp.:think: :think: :think:

[Horse with no Name]

3. Speak for yourself

His genetic makeup isn't human--mine is.

[gfnrob]

4. Who???

:shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

9. Ahh when I think of chimp

I think of the asshat squatting on Pennsylvania Avenue.
You were talking about the CUTE chimps.:)

[gfnrob]

10. Yes the cute ones,

not the one that lies cheats and kills:hippie:

[Warpy]

5. I think margarine is foul stuff

The best of it is the "soft spread" type that is mixed with lecithin and unsaturated oil, but basically margarine is a stick of trans fat. If you've got a family history of heart disease, avoid it completely.

I find I use real butter much more sparingly than I do (or did) margarine. The only time I use margarine is in some holiday baking, but a minority of that. Don't want to poison the neighbors!

However, the "one molecule away from.." is a scare tactic. Don't forget that table salt is one element away from being either a flammable metal or deadly gas.

[donsu]

8. last time I ate margarine was during WWII, when it was invented

it ain't good for you.

butter is better, but nowaday's butter is not the same as butter from grass fed cows. grain fed cow's butter tastes different.

[BurtWorm]

11. Actrually it was invented during the Napoleonic wars

by a French guy, of all people!


PS: Whoops! Wrong Napoleon:

1870

Margarine was created by a Frenchman from Provence, France -- Hippolyte Mège-Mouriez -- in response to an offer by the Emperor Louis Napoleon III for the production of a satisfactory substitute for butter. To formulate his entry, Mège-Mouriez used margaric acid, a fatty acid component isolated in 1813 by Michael Chevreul and named because of the lustrous pearly drops that reminded him of the Greek word for pearl -- margarites. From this word, Mège-Mouriez coined the name margarine for his invention that claimed the Emperor’s prize.

http://www.margarine.org/historyofmargarine.html

[donsu]

18. I didn't know! how interesting. I met margarine during WWII when it came

in a clear plastic bag and was white. in the bag was a capsule with yellow dye in it. thru the bag you crushed the capsule and squished the dye around until everything was yellow and then you cut open the bag and squeezed out the margarine into a container.

[BurtWorm]

19. Was that to make you pretend it was butter?

Strange!

[donsu]

21. lol - during the war butter was rationed - a family got so many coupons

each mo. for butter, sugar, gas, etc.

[TahitiNut]

22. Yep. I remember those days, too.

Oleomargarine.

[shanti]

54. yep, mom called it "oleo"

n/t

[trof]

24. Damn! I remember that too. "Oleo-margarine"

How old ARE you, anyway?
;-)

[donsu]

47. 71

nt

[TahitiNut]

12. Water is "only one molecule away" from being alcohol.

It's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a long, long time. I don't know what's happened to the education system in this country, but a molecule is what makes a compound a compound. To review Junior High School science, it is the smallest part of a compound that retains the characteristics of that compound.

Hell, it's as ridiculous as saying that Hydrogen is only one atom away from being Arsenic!!

It's true! So what? To think it trivial is to fail to comprehend the fundamentals of chemistry.

(Beware of that Dihydrogen Oxide ... it's deadly.)

[BurtWorm]

13. My thoughts exactly.

:applause:

(I hear the Bushists are using dihydrogen oxide to torture confessions out of terrorists!)

[TahitiNut]

14. (grin) In a related NewsFlash: Water is only one molecule away from being SALT!!!

:rofl:

[renate]

15. what margarine IS full of is trans fatty acids

I know butter's more expensive and that can be a barrier to a lot of people, but I would stop using a spread altogether rather than use margarine (or Crisco, for cooking).

(There are a couple of brands that don't contain trans fats--they'll say so on the label.)

[tammywammy]

39. That's why I gave up margarine years ago, trans fats.

Plus, butter tastes delicious. :)

[RB TexLa]

16. Your assumption that ingesting plastic is bad is based on what?

[BurtWorm]

17. Some plastic tastes like buttah!

[Batgirl]

20. I just ate a caramel apple that was one molucule away

from being a Payday candy bar. Especially since the apple had gone bad, necessitating that it be thrown away after gnawing off the delicious candy coating.

But it's probably a good idea to avoid margarine because as others have noted, it's a stick of transfat.

[Delphinus]

23. I have heard that too.

I'm not at all a science person, so why it's like that I have no idea. But, I have at least heard it too.

[TahitiNut]

25. It's grade-school science, typically 5th Grade stuff.

See post #13 above.

The concept of molecules and compounds is introduced in the 5th grade. NOBODY should be permitted to graduate high school without this VERY basic knowledge, imho.

[seriousstan]

26. It saddens me that nurses are so poorly educated in chemistry.

This explains why they are not doctors. Thank God.

Margarine, a butter substitute made originally from other animal fats, but nowadays exclusively from vegetable oils, is, like homogenization and pasteurization, a French innovation.

Like its model, margarine is about 80% fat, 20% water and solids. It is flavored, colored, and fortified with vitamin A and sometimes D to match butter's nutritional contribution. A single oil or a blend may be used. During World War I, coconut oil was favored; in the thirties, it was cottonseed, and in the fifties, soy. Today, soy and corn oils predominate. The raw oil is pressed from the seeds, purified, hydrogenated, and then fortified and colored, either with a synthetic carotene or with annatto, a pigment extracted from a tropical seed. The water phase is usually reconstituted or skim milk that is cultured with lactic bacteria to produce a stronger flavor, although pure diacetyl, the compound most responsible for the flavor of butter, is also used. Emulsifiers such as lecithin help disperse the water phase evenly throughout the oil, and salt and preservatives are also commonly added. The mixture of oil and water is then heated, blended, and cooled. The softer tub margarines are made with less hydrogenated, more liquid oils than go into stick margarines.



Additives

The shelf life of margarine and other fats and oils is improved if oxygen attack on the double bonds in the carbon chains can be repelled or at least diverted, for then they do not turn rancid. The compound 2-tert-butyl-4-methoxyphenol or, more succinctly, BHA is anantioxidant, a substance that inhibits oxidation; it acts by interupting the chain reaction in which oxygen combines with double bonds and slices molecules in two. It does so by combining with peroxide radicals (radicals of the form X-O-O, where X is th rest of the molecule) before they have time to attack other molecules and continue the chain.

Antioxidants have been used in foods for thousands of years, but their rules has only recently been appreciated. Among the more familiar ones are spices, which not only mask unpleasant odors but also help to prevent their formation. Sage, cloves, rosemary, and thyme all contain phenolic compounds resemblinh BHA, which interupt the chain reactions and stabilize fats against oxidation. Thyme oil is also effective against bacteria and has been used in gargles, mouthwashes, and disinfectants. Animals contain antioxidant materials, including vitamin E, that serve a similar purpose - to stop them from going rancid while they are still alive.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. What kind of nurse is that?

Usually nurses have some basic science education, hopefully at least a little chemistry.

Margarine is not close to plastic, and "one molecule away" just doesn't make any sense.

Here's a typical molecule found in margarine. Oleic acid



There's a carboxylic acid at one end, unsaturation at C9. Nothing else going on, everything else is saturated and pretty much inert.

Now, plastics are polymers, long chains of basic smaller units. For example, you can have acrylic acid:



Which somewhat sort of resembles a very small odd-carbon unsaturated fatty acid. And you can polymerize it, like popcorn chains for the christmas tree:



Where x and y can be in the thousands, millions, etc. (ester derivative also shown)

But this has nothing to do with marginarine. You could sort of explain fatty acids as oligomers of methylene units, more accurately as oligomers of two carbon units from a biochemical perspective. But that is not plastic.

The nurse's ignorance of chemistry is unfortunate but not surprising. 60% of US adults don't know what a "molecule" is, according to the AAAS.

[Horse with no Name]

30. Well considering that nurses don't take care of

chemistry, they take care of real people.
Why is it surprising?
The nurse you question is a fabulous nursery nurse who has been practicing for over 30 years.
Has probably single-handedly saved hundreds of little lives because of her intelligence and skills.
I think I'll give her a break because she doesn't know her chemistry.:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Like I mentioned...

nurses need education, including science, which would hopefully include chemistry.

Nurses use chemistry often, from giving drugs to performing lab tests. Which is why colleges often offer "chemistry for nurses" classes.

Moreover, every adult should know what a molecule is. Particular those who've had education beyond high school.

On edit: Alright, having googled "nursery nurse" that's apparently the equivalent of somebody who works in a daycare, and not an RN or LPN who works in, say, a hospital nursery. So that explains a bit. Still, not much better.

[Horse with no Name]

32. LOL

You are touched. Obviously you have never seen a newborn infant struggling for life when they are delivered too early or too sick. Who do you think saves these lives when pediatricians aren't present at the birth?Highly trained neonatal nurses--that is who. Of which this woman is one.
Please.
You don't have a clue. Not one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Oh, well then...

If a person's going to be providing care to a struggling newborn infant I sure as hell hope that person can pass a high school level science class.

Neo-natal nurses are indeed highly trained, not just in basic nursing courses (which would include chemistry for nurses) but additional course work in lab tests and drug delivery specifically for infants.

Which is, again, why I'm surprised why this person doesn't know squat about chemistry.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

36. How ironic.

The maker of this thread, alleging that someone else doesn't have "a clue".

"Not one," indeed.

[seriousstan]

37. Careful, you will called my "sockpuppet".

[Tesha]

57. A nurse trained in neonatology *DAMNED WELL OUGHT* to understand...

A nurse trained in neonatology *DAMNED WELL OUGHT* to understand
what a molecule is. If this one doesn't, she needs refresher training.

Or maybe, more charitably, her statement was misunderstood by her
audience.

Tesha

[greenbriar]

28. its velveeta cheese that is one ingredient away from plastic

but can't remember what that was now

[frustrated_lefty]

38. Ehh, Bornaginhooligan

you kind of sound like a goober next to HorsewithNoName (or however the hell she capitalizes it). You keep tossing around the word "molecule," as though it were interchangeable with the word "atom." You insist on the need of nurses to have knowledge of chemistry (by which I assume you mean both organic and inorganic), you act as though they need to titrate a solution of salt to save a life. In short, you're acting like a goober and showing immense disrespect to a person who has devoted her life to saving others.

Since you're such a knowledgable fellow, what exactly have you done to make the world a little bit better today?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. ...

"You keep tossing around the word "molecule," as though it were interchangeable with the word 'atom.'"

I'm well aware of the definitions of both. Can you give me an example of where I interchange them? I mean, outside of where I am joking.

"You insist on the need of nurses to have knowledge of chemistry (by which I assume you mean both organic and inorganic)"

Actually, the insistence is usually the teachers and administrators of nursing schools. I do believe they introduce both organic and inorganic chemistry.

"you act as though they need to titrate a solution of salt to save a life."

Indeed, nurses often need to deliver exacting volumes of salt solution in order to save lives. Often through I.V.s.

"In short, you're acting like a goober and showing immense disrespect to a person who has devoted her life to saving others."

Indeed, I've the outmost respect for fully qualified nurses. (goober?)

"Since you're such a knowledgable fellow, what exactly have you done to make the world a little bit better today?"

Alas, I'm a retired high school chemistry teacher, and have done little with myself today. Although I'm proud to say I've taught many a boy and girl who went on to the noble field of nursing. And I they do know what a molecule is.

[frustrated_lefty]

44. oh, hell

After erasing a long, drawn out reply, there are a few very simple points I'd like to stress.

1) If you've been a teacher, kudos to you. If you did a good job at it, you're a freaking hero.
2) The argument that nurses need to administer exacting amounts of salt solution is bogus, and you probably know that. Physiological saline comes pre-bagged, sterile. In a pinch, I think a nurse could measure out 0.89 gm NaCl per 100 mL and filter it. Their attention needs to be focused on patients, not calculating molarity.
3) Rather than acting like an old fart whose job is done, get up off your fanny and find some youngsters who share your enthusiasm for understanding the why and how of things. Let them benefit from your experience.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. I noticed...

you didn't have anything to say about my mistaking atoms and molecules.

"The argument that nurses need to administer exacting amounts of salt solution is bogus, and you probably know that."

I would hope that the nurses that attend to me are not just trained monkeys following orders. But understand what it is that they are doing and why.

"In a pinch, I think a nurse could measure out 0.89 gm NaCl per 100 mL and filter it."

Ahh, chemistry.

"Rather than acting like an old fart whose job is done, get up off your fanny and find some youngsters who share your enthusiasm for understanding the why and how of things. Let them benefit from your experience."

That's what I'm doing now.

[Recursion]

34. Put a stick of margarine out in your yard some time

And watch how many insects, birds, squirrels, or other critters eat it.

In my experience, the number is about 0.

That should tell you something.

[donsu]

48. and my dogs would not eat hotdogs - they'd fight over anything else

nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. I just read that water is almost sulphuric acid

Just add an "S".

H2O --> H2SO4

:wow: :scared:


:sarcasm:

[frustrated_lefty]

40. Watch out for the HO's, though,

those hydroxyl ions will ruin your day!

[Horse with no Name]

42. Glad you all had fun at someone else's expense

I am guessing that we should all be as smart as some of you.

[madokie]

45. Who would have ever thought that so innocent of a statement as the OP

would draw such responses.

[Wonk]

46. *raises hand*

The ignorance of even basic chemistry shown in the OP deserved it.

I said it in one of the deleted sub-threads, so I guess I'll say it again: I think this thread should be moved to DU's Science forum, for the humor value.

[Blecht]

56. Not so much the ignorance

It's the reluctance of the original poster to take this opportunity to learn something.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. The OP's concern was responded to properly.

It's when the OP decided to insult the responders because they gave him/her an answer he/she didn't like that it turned ugly.

[Batgirl]

51. Don't really want to keep bumping, but I agree

It mostly seemed like harmless joking until the finger-waggin' chemistry lectures. But maybe, for some, there are too few opportunities in life to set someone straight about how many hydrogen molecules it takes to change a lightbulb.

[cmf]

43. The interesting thing about chemistry is that

even a small difference in chemical makeup will change the properties immensely. Water (H2O) is only one atom away from Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2), yet water is a necessity of life and consuming pure H2O2 will kill you.

Anyway, even if margarine were "one molecule away" from plastic (which it isn't), it wouldn't make any difference on whether it's good or bad for you.

[Blecht]

55. We can go even further with this ...

We eat sodium ions every day, but try putting sodium metal in your mouth. What's the difference between the two? One electron! Oh no!

[shanti]

50. i haven't had margarine for at least 15 years

i was raised on margarine. butter is worth the extra cost, there's just no comparison.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Butter is better for you too.

At least from what I've read recently. Butter raises LDL but also raises somewhat HDL. Trans fats raise LDL but also lower HDL, it's a double whammy.