Lets Face It - Lots of Important People are Gay.

[leftyladyfrommo]

Maybe we should just "get over it." Let people live their lives.

I know I don't care one bit about someone's sexual persuasion.

[waiting for hope]

1. AMEN!

What two consenting adults do behind closed doors is really nobody's business, well, unless you live in an apartment with paper thin walls and you just happen to hear everything......

[Cleita]

14. Well, that happens with heteros too. But no one is telling them

they can't have sex because others can hear them. DH and I once lived next to a horny, bachelor businessman with a taste for flight attendants. We heard everything through the paper thin walls, everything. Finally, we were able to move, but it was hard for me to pass that guy in the parking lot with a straight face.

[waiting for hope]

38. I know what you mean....

actually I was referring to any and all consenting adults....my first apartment had thin ceilings too....straight faces were always a chore!

[wholetruth00]

62. Lots of "important," "brilliant," and "talented" people are gay. BUT

most of them don't go around bashing gays and pretending to be the moral police of the universe. Gays as a group are just like any other group in society. They are smart or dumb, good or evil, honest or dishones, nice or nasty, believers or non-believers, rich or poor, liberal or conservative, racist or not, warmongers or pacifists. It's the hypocrites in all groups that make me want to spit.

[Giant Robot]

65. I wouldn't tell them they can't have sex

But I will tell them to move the bed back from the wall. Actually complained to the landlord, who liked us and disliked them, and had him handle it. That was just an aside. I don't really give a crap who dates whom, who fucks whom, or who is attracted to whom, consenting adults and all.

[Beelzebud]

2. You'd think that in a "free society", personal issues wouldn't be issues...

[Hepburn]

4. But...

...let's not forget the push for a theocracy from the fundies. Their idea of freedom is being allowed to pick the color of the cover of your Bible. Sooooooo......under their system, no one is allowed to "choose" to be gay.

:sarcasm:

[MADem]

3. "We" aren't the ones trying to deny "them" basic rights--the GOP is.

I never noted that Democrats as a party had an issue with orientation. In fact, most legislators I know are fans of equal rights.

It always seemed to me to be the GOP favorite bugaboo to haul out when stem cell research and abortion matters weren't sufficiently riling the base.

Of course, if you posted that thought on a GOP website, they'd tombstone you.

[msongs]

7. harold ford JR harold ford JR harold ford JR not a fan of = rights nt

[MADem]

18. But come on, that's a shitty example--he's running as a DINO

Linc Chaffee in RI doesn't represent most GOP values either.

Ya can't pick an outlier and suggest that they represent the norm. He's to the right of Attilla, Harold is.

Ford is doing everything and anything he can to try to win. That's his motivation. And if it takes pitching the Democratic agenda over the side, and parroting the conservative and panderingly religious views that go over well in his state, he's gonna do that, because he wants to win.

I'm quite sure, if he does win, and wants to win once again six years from now, he'll vote the way the leader tells him (or he won't get a damn dime of DNC dough), and the leadership will accomodate him by slipping some pro-TN amendment into the more "distateful" bills. That way, he can say he was voting for, say, clean water or jobs training for rural folks in his state, but unfortunately, it was attached to a bill that was "gonna pass no matter how he voted."

It's all a shell game. They'll give him cover when it's needed, and he'll vote with the platform in the majority of cases.

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. I don't think its just a GOP thing. I know lots of guys (mostly guys) that

are still really, really bothered by the whole gay thing.

Being female I can't really understand what the big deal is.

Being female I usually like the gay guys better than the straight ones. I can just be myself around them - have a good time. And that is nice.

[MADem]

12. Well, I'm talking about our national party platform. NT

[leftyladyfrommo]

15. Yea, Democrats don't act like idiots about this particular topic.

That may be because women have a lot more power in the Democratic Party.

The Republican party is still such a good ole rich white boys club.

[badgerpup]

23. 'zackly!

:thumbsup::applause:
It's easier to be friends with someone when you KNOW the 'sex' question isn't going to come onto the table...you can just be people.

"Unless you're directly involved in someone's sex life, you're not involved at all."

IMHO, at least. Trying to come up with something quick and catchy...:P

[soothsayer]

5. It seems insane that it would annoy people, doesn't it?

[ThomCat]

6. It would be wonderful if people didn't care.

We wouldn't be denied equal rights if sexuality really was a non-issue. :(

We have a long way to go.

[MADem]

11. The sad fact is, people will ALWAYS "care" about something

And I don't mean that in a positive way. They might care about ethnicity, religion, political affiliation....there's a need for some to isolate and demonize some "others" to rally power for themselves, to foster a group identity that is focused around hatred, or maybe just because they are a bit insecure. It makes them feel good and 'bigger' to look down their noses at another category of humans.

Of course, it might not happen in their lifetime, but through the long lens of history, these haters and excluders ALWAYS end up looking like major douchebags and buffoons. When they are remembered at all, they are mocked and denigrated--not the legacy they would have hoped for.

[ThomCat]

13. They may end up mocked and denigrated but

that's after they've spent their lifetime with power and influence. No amount of judgement after they're dead prevents them from ruining lives while they're alive.

[MADem]

19. No, it doesn't. But the people who learn from history tend not to repeat it.

It's only the dunces who don't KNOW history, and don't KNOW basic things about our world (see: Bush, Iraq, history, religious sects, as an example!) who fuck up royally.

It's an argument for increased history education in our schools, I guess.

[hedgehog]

8. I wonder how much of it is due to indoctrination during military training?

My dad is pretty easy going, but he just has a thing about gays. He would never say a word in public against gays and I think he supports the right of gays to marry, but he gets the creeps about the whole subject. It's so unlike him that I wonder where he picked up that attitude.

[leftyladyfrommo]

10. My dad always had a thing about gay men, too.

But then he had a thing about blacks, Hispanics, Jews and anyone else who was different. He was kind of an equal opportunity racist and homophobe. But he never let on in public. He was always very polite to everyone.

[hedgehog]

17. I wouldn't call this homophobia as such.

I'm not sure what to call it. It seems to have more to do with the Ick Factor than anything else.

[swimboy]

21. Please get back to me when you HAVE decided what you will call it.

I'll be real interested to see what I think.

[hedgehog]

22. It's an attitude based more on total incomprehension than disapproval

or feeling of sinfulness. He just has no idea how anyone could be gay. The only think I could compare this to is a Christian in a small town who meets a non-Christian or atheist for the very first time. I'm not talking about a raving fundy, just a good person who has never met anyone different before. That's why I say my dad would never interfere with a gay person's rights, but he just doesn't get it. I guarantee that if his neighbors were gay and in trouble, he'd be right there to help them out.

[swimboy]

24. Thanks for clarifying.

I've seen this generational limitation play out in other issues as well.

[hedgehog]

25. It's as if people reach a certain limit and can go no further

like Teyvah in Fiddler on the Roof

[Change has come]

53. the Ick Factor

is homophobia.

[LostinVA]

58. Bingo

[Jed Dilligan]

30. I've noticed that older people (I'm 32) get grossed out

by things I think of as normal, like oral and anal sex. (Most people assume these are the only kinds of sex gay people have--not true, I'm sure, but that's the common perception.) I'm a straight man btw.

I think it mostly has to do with growing up repressed about the body. And (flamesuit on) I think the removal of censorship on erotica has a lot to do with our healthier attitude today. People can see these taboo acts as sensual, fun, and not really the big deal that's been made of them in the past. The resistant strain of homophobia seems to reside in the parts of society where repression continues.

[sandnsea]

32. Describes every man I know

except the gay ones, obviously. Women too, for that matter. If homosexual sex were appealing, everybody would do it. I honestly don't know why homosexuals get offended at the idea. If heterosexual sex were appealing to them, they'd do that. I really don't understand why people pretend it's not true.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. Isn't there room for "neutral"?

You don't seem to admit any space between "gross" and "appealing." I don't find my own body or other men's to be "gross." A naked man to me is just a guy without clothes on, a naked woman excites me. Of course, some people of either sex are gross because they don't take care of their bodies. But I don't think being grossed out by gay men is a prerequisite for being a heterosexual man.

[sandnsea]

35. That isn't even what I said

You didn't mention sex in there once. That's what I was talking about - not bodies. That was very clear in my post.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. Sex, bodies, same thing as far as I'm concerned

What's the difference between male and female other than the body?

[sandnsea]

40. Well no it isn't

Otherwise, like I said, everybody would have sex with everybody and that's not the way it is.

Bodies are a completely different matter, as anyone who has been to an art galley can attest.

[Jed Dilligan]

41. I don't buy "artistic nudes" if that's what you're getting at

I think Michelangelo, Rubens, et al. were making erotica and quite aware of it.

on edit: I don't get why purely physical gender difference would lead to mass orgies, either.

[sandnsea]

42. Excuse me?

Mass orgies???

:wtf:

You sure are going out of your way to avoid explaining why people don't have sex with either gender if sexual attraction is all neutral.

And I guess, if nudes really are just porn, they shouldn't be in art galleries after all. :crazy:

These kinds of conversations are what give liberals a bad name. :eyes:

[Jed Dilligan]

43. We absolutely are not understanding each other.

The sight of two men having sex doesn't gross me out, it just doesn't turn me on. That's the neutral part.

The sight of women (having sex or not, naked or not) does turn me on. That's what makes me straight.

I don't understand how my lack of revulsion at gay men and sex makes me less straight.

[sandnsea]

45. No, we absolutely are

You just keep dodging the point. What does the thought of actually HAVING SEX with a man do for you? I highly doubt it's a neutral thought, although I also doubt you'll admit it here.

[Jed Dilligan]

46. It's just not something I would pursue.

If you're talking about being raped, yes, that is a terrifying thought.

Under what conditions other than rape would I have sex with a man, when I don't want to?

I've looked at gay porn, graphic images of men having sex. It turns me on about as much as wrestling, which is to say, not at all. It doesn't make me want to puke either.

I've also seen dramatic renditions of gay sex in film and television. I'm thinking particularly of Keith and David on "Six Feet Under." I can get caught up in the emotional side of the sex--these characters are like friends to me, people I care about--without getting turned on.

How would you feel if I told you the thought of you having sex was repulsive to me? I don't think we could be friends, regardless of gender. In order to be friends to gay people, I think a prerequisite is not being disgusted by their sex life.

[sandnsea]

47. Still dodging

Which actually says it all.

Cheers.

[Jed Dilligan]

48. Dodging what?

What exactly are you trying to get me to admit?

On edit: Since I doubt you plan on replying, here's my best guess: you are trying to justify the homophobia of the males in your life by claiming it for all straight males. Those of us who did not grow up under the sexual repression of the 50s or 60s or latter day "traditional values" lifestyles, we just don't share this homophobia, and we take heart that we will probably outlive most of those who do.

[sandnsea]

49. One last time

It isn't looking at naked bodies. It isn't looking at art or porn or whatever you want to call naked depictions of people. It isn't looking at a sex scene on the tv. It isn't a hypothetical rape.

What is your response when you think of HAVING SEX with a man. Period. You have jumped around to every other possible scenario except the ONLY one I was addressing. Neutral?

[Jed Dilligan]

50. Still neutral.

No interest, no disgust. Point?

[sandnsea]

52. Then why not?

Why not just go ahead and have sex with men then? I'm neutral on bologna, as compared to steak, but I go ahead and eat it sometimes. So if you've got no negative response to sex with a man AT ALL, why not just go on ahead with it? More to choose from and all of that. Seems logical to me.

[Jed Dilligan]

54. Foremost: Because I don't want to.

Also: Because I have a girlfriend I'm faithful to.

Being repressed and prudish and prim and proper isn't the only way to avoid promiscuity.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. A lesbian's response:

:wtf:

[sandnsea]

56. If it's all neutral

Why not go for it? I can't imagine not having sex with any particular person, regardless of gender, unless there was something that was unappealing about it. I think it's disingenuous to pretend it's not true.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

57. There's no point to it.

I don't find it disgusting, but it doesn't do anything for me, so what's the point? Burning a few calories? Sorry, but I sex should be really fun. I've been with both men & women, so I can definitely give an informed opinion on this.

Also, do you have sex with everybody that you're not repulsed by? That's what you're suggesting, you know.

[Catherine Vincent]

60. Interesting discussion up there...

[sandnsea]

61. No it isn't

First, I didn't use the word repulsed so don't put words in my mouth. I clearly said unappealing. I also didn't say that anybody would have sex with every person they found attractive, I don't know why you'd intentionally twist my words like that.

People's sexuality is not neutral. People have sex with partners they find attractive and reject partners that are unappealing. For bisexuals, obviously gender doesn't come into play at all. Every heterosexual and homosexual I know find sex outside their gender orientation unappealing, not just 'neutral'.

And of course I expect people to argue with that because it's not PC, but that doesn't make it not true. I don't see why we have to play these stupid games and force people to deny what almost everybody feels. It doesn't matter. I don't like onions, but it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with onion eaters.

[foreigncorrespondent]

63. That's ok....

...I find heterosexual sex pretty damn disgusting. Nothing even remotely intimate about the entire experience. And yes, I am talking from experience.

[gollygee]

37. Absolutely

My brother really didn't have any negative feelings about gay people before he was in the military. He had a pretty close gay friend, which straight guys often seem to shy away from. But he wasn't bothered by it at all, and just wanted his friend to be happy. We have a couple of gay family members and I'm sure that's why he was so relaxed about it. It's easier to hate a group of people when no one you love is a member of that group.

Then he joined the military. It's really amazing how much he changed, but that was the biggest change I noticed. How he was so understanding before he went in, and so sure after basic training that being gay was a) a choice and b) a bad choice. It's really sad. He isn't mean when he talks to gay people one-on-one, but he does stupid things like vote for any idiotic anti-gay ballot issue that comes up.

[Ohio Joe]

16. Agreed

I have enough to worry about regarding my own sex life (or lack thereof) to care one bit about what other consenting adults do.

[swimboy]

20. If a closeted gay politician is using gay issues to beat me down

then hell yeah, I want him outed and let him reap what he has sown. His bigoted colleagues will boot him because he's gay. That's their bad. I want him out because he had the power to keep me down. I want his straight colleagues out too. What have you got on them?

Of course queer people should be elected to office, but they should be honest about who they are and work for the rights of ALL their constituents. It comes with the territory.

You think no one should have been interested that Jimmy Swaggart was whoring around? He made a career of judging others. He reaped what he sowed.

I long for the day when no one will care if someone is gay or straight, married or single. That day won't come as long as our elected representatives use these issues as a cudgel.

[ThomCat]

27. I agree, but with one reservation.

When we out a hypocritical closeted politician, it give straight people and oportunity to jump on the bandwagon and jump on the queer, apparently with our approval. I'm hesitant to do anything that impies that approval.

We have enough problems with insults, implications and attacks against us without implicitly inviting more.

That is why I think hypocrits need to be outed (and I STRONGLY support outing them), but I'm always debating how to do it in a way that turns the situation into a riot. We are very fortunate in the Mark Foley sitation that people are focusing on the republican corruption. This hasn't turned into a witch-hunt for gays. But I'm always worried that it could.

[Coexist]

26. when people stop holding up "fags" and "dykes" signs in public

and stop saying that they are "sinning against God" and they are "going to burn in hell" and they don't deserve basic rights, and they are thought to be too dirty to raise children, I will stop agreeing that outing closeted hypocrites is okay.

Until then, all bets are off.

[LeftCoast]

28. Most of those types are bigots, not hypocrits

:shrug:

[marano35]

29. Karl Rove is important....

and his dad was openly gay.

[Blue_In_AK]

31. I don't think anyone here has a problem with people being gay...

The issue is the hypocrisy among Republican politicians -- condemning the gay lifestyle for political purposes publically but condoning it privately among their own members.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Why do we need labels to defined sexual orientation? Seems silly to me.

:shrug: I couldn't care less. People are people.

[AZBlue]

36. THANK YOU! I'm so sick of all these threads about who's gay and who's got a mistress

Who cares?????????!!!!!

Additionally, that will only come back to bite us in the ass. Dems cheat and sleep around just as much as the GOP and there are just as many gay people in the Dem part as in the GOP (if not more). By making a big deal about it, we're saying that's ok to make a person's sexual preferences an issue (whether it's with a member of the same sex or someone they aren't married to), and we'll get it doubly as tough the next time a Dem comes out or a Dem is revealed to have had an affair.

Those DU'ers who like to make a big deal out of sexual activities of the GOP say "it's all about the hypocrisy." That's an absurd justification. First of all, it's hypocritical for someone who's supposedly non-judgmental and open to then judge another. Secondly, let me just say, how quickly they forget - as in, "who cares if the President got a blow job? what does that have to do with how he performs in office???!!". Now, that's hypocritical!

Plus, no one bought the "values party" rhetoric by the GOP - the general public doesn't see the irony of a Rep being caught with their hand in the cookie jar - they just think that a sexual scandal is cool, and we're encouraging that thought process by making a big deal out of it.

There are enough legitimate things to target the GOP for, we don't need to stoop to this level.

[TahitiNut]

44. (Hmmm...) Well, I don't happen to believe in "unimportant" people.

But maybe that's just me. :shrug:

[KT2000]

51. Wedge issue

promulgated by the Right Wing.
The horrors of gay marriage is supposed to energize the base and get them to the polls.
Equal rights is supposed to energize the base and get them to the polls.
The so-called "homosexual agenda" is supposed to scare people into running to the polls and voting for a genocidal war, corporate control of this counttry and a bunch of facsists.

Of course someones sexual preference is a non-issue - UNLESS they have made a point to deny equal rights to others and they are sharing the same sexual prefernce as those they hope to destroy.

I will not "get over" this kind of hypocrisy.

[LostinVA]

59. Jesus! Being gay is not about SEX

It's about our lives.... unless you're 22-years-old and a club kid, who the heck has their lives centered around sex?

God.

And, calling gay sex disgusting, and stating that straight people are "sickened" by it IS homophobia, and is categorically not true. Are you really so naive to think that gays are the only people watching gay porn???

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

66. Umm...this was meant for sandnsea, right?

[Giant Robot]

67. I am not sure I agree with you on this one

About straight people being "sickened" by gay sex being homophobic I mean. I speak for myself on this I guess, not any other poster. Personally, the thought, and sight, of two guys kissing is icky to me. Seen it, don't like it. But I also know I would be one of the first to say that they have every right to date, have their public displays of affection, marry, have kids and have as much sex as their hearts desire. I can deal with what I don't like; I don't feel the need to squash it.

[upi402]

64. live and let live

:toast: