I think it is somehow a little shameful that we seem to be gloating over Haggard

[Perky]

I don't know if he is gay or not. All there is at this point is an accusation and Haggard resignation from the NAE. It does not look good to be sure and whatever the truth is I am fine with. I am not defending Haggard, but I don't have all the facts yet and neither does anyone else. Is he a hypocrite?.....time will tell...but for all I know, his accuser could be lying.

But......(and maybe it is just my own Christian mercy showing through here) I find no joy in seeing someone who may have led a double life being exposed. It seems somehow distasteful that so many on DU are gloating over it. If true it is devastating to lots of people. If he did do what the accuser says he did, then yeah he made his own bed and deserves whatever he gets. But his wife....his five kids..... and his flock are reeling right now. The fellowship could fall apart over this....I suspect the entire church staff could lose their jobs as people just walk away.

I just wish DUers were a little kinder, but then again thatis just me.

[Lautremont]

1. I don't think he's gay.

I just think he likes fucking people in the ass.

[niceypoo]

116. It's about the hypocracy

See the movie "Jesus camp". This guy leads some 30 million evangelical xristians, the real loonies. The ones that believe that the world is like one huge, demon infested haunted house and humans have magical powers etc. etc... This revelation will turn more than a few of the loonie rapture cultists away from the polls on tuesday.

[NMDemDist2]

2. shameful? you know what's shameful? Hypocritical pompous pius

Holier than Thou @ssholes being seen for who they really are.

Pitiful, repressed and LIARS!

Gloating? hell ya!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[KSU Wildcat]

19. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....

nt

[NMDemDist2]

40. welcome to DU KSU Wildcat!

:hi:

If I made my living preaching against the very actions I do in secret, the chips may fall where they will.

I am not judging the man's sex life or orientation, I am disgusted by his duplicity and hypocrisy.

Men like him cause untold damage to young gay people who are shamed and scorned for their God Given sexuality. The rate of gay teen ager suicides are criminal and can be laid at the feet of the bigots who preach like this man. The fact Haggard had homosexual sex is not the issue, it's the damage he and his ilk have done to innocents.

[Skidmore]

99. Were you as willling to be so charitable with accusations

made against Clinton or any Dem accused of some moral transgression?

[niceypoo]

118. Ive never gotten cranked up then went out and sucked dick...

...all the while trying to wish people to hell for doing same. Its the hypocracy, baby!

[mike_c]

3. good for you-- I am neither christian nor gay...

...but I am VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with the gloating going on over Haggard's possible relationship with a gay prostitute. His sex life is his own business, EVEN IF HE IS HYPOCRITICAL ABOUT IT. The right way to be tolerant doesn't change just because the beneficiary of that tolerance is intolerant himself.

[tuvor]

11. His sex life is NOT his own business.

Not when he's telling others how to live their sex lives.

[mike_c]

14. I disagree-- you either believe in the right to privacy or you don't...

...and if you do, the actions of others should not influence your determination to respect their privacy-- even when they are utterly hypocritical in their own actions. Do you really want to be like them?

[tuvor]

26. Don't go there. I am not "being like them".

Privacy has nothing to do with any of this. It's all about the hypocrisy, and I can't state it more plainly than that.

This was said many a time during the Foley thing, and obviously there are differences of opinion on DU.

That's well and good, but don't for one damn second suggest that I'm "being like them".

[mike_c]

28. you're justifying using his sexual orientation against him...

...which is precisely what he does to others. At least be honest with yourself.

[tuvor]

35. What other hypocrisies get a pass from you?

Obviously there's room in your world to tolerate a certain amount of hypocrisy.

Not in mine, regardless of your condescension.

So, care to answer the question?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tuvor]

41. Oh, great. Now I'm a gay-basher.

I never realized. Thanks for setting me straight.

[rpannier]

32. So how often should they be allowed to smear us

before we fight back?

This kind of logic cost us the '88 election. bush I smeared dukakis and he kept turning the other cheek.

I'm all in favor of hitting back and hitting very hard.

[mike_c]

36. so you would be just like them...

...and you seem pretty gleeful about it, too.

[izzybeans]

64. I agree it is really easy to slip into the "tu quoque"

It just reinforces what is already there.

[rpannier]

83. You cast my position anyway you wish

But, after having voted since 1982, I found that when we campaign like former Sen Cranston did in 86, former Pres Clinton did in 92, etc we win.
When we let them frame the issues, when we allow them to go on the attack and we do nothing but complain, we get our asses handed to us.
I have had the opportunity to live under four Democracies and, for the most part, they all work the same way. the republikkans did not invent attack-dog politics, they exist everywhere.

If getting down and dirty is what is necessary to win elections then I'll do it.

They belittle liberals (to the point that by 1988, no Democrat wanted to use the word liberal to describe their positions), they demonize us, they verbally spit on us and they marginalize our beliefs and our acccomplishments.

I say fight back and fight to win.

To be honest, I don't think we'll ever agree on this issue.
It doesn't make me evil or you naive. It just means we disagree on tactics (IMO).

For me, I'd like to see politics totally public funded. I'd ike to see them more civil than they are. But, politics in America has never been a very civil affair. If being aggressive and negative didn't work then campaigns would use them.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

63. Incorrect. I believe in a right to privacy from government intrusion. I do not,

however, believe anyone has a right to force others to be complicit in keeping their secrets.

[hlthe2b]

18. I'm sure you are right... but I've seen the clips of Haggard in

Jesus Camp and OH MY GOD what a malicious man! Just that memory running through my mind taxes any sympathetic/empathetic tendencies I might have....


Having said that, if he were a private person and not actively influencing the National Agenda and working to promote hate towards gays, lesbians, and any number of individuals that fall short of his expectations vis a vis HIS religion, I'd agree totally. The fact is that he is NOT a private individual and he is talking to Bush weekly and actively inciting hate and intolerance towards others. I'm of a mind that if there is evidence that he is "preaching a lie" in terms of his own true beliefs and behavior, there may be justification in exposing the hypocrisy..

[cali]

85. It certainly is not his own business

He's a fundy republican mover and shaker. Did you read the Harper's article about him? If not, I suggest you do so.

[DURHAM D]

4. Oh really - Well what about all of the lives, particularly young

lives, that have been ruined by the ravings of Haggard, Dobson, Perkins, Falwell, Robertson, etc.

Like KO spoke said last night - maybe they don't (although often they do) actually raise the cane and strike the blow but they help/encourage others to do so.

In my opinion, they can/should all burn in hell.

[fishwax]

121. they have damaged the country too

with their backwards views on a host of issues. How many lives did Haggardy and his ilk ruin before finally finally ruining his own?

[tuvor]

5. As NYT ethics columnist Randy Cohen said on CNN re: Foley...

“If you can’t delight in the downfall of a hypocrite, you have no zest for life.”

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

60. "If you can't delight in the downfall of a hypocrite, you have no zest for life"

LOVE that quote. I saw Cohen say that during the Foley scandal and have quoted it to others.

:thumbsup:

[ret5hd]

6. "The fellowship could fall apart over this..."

Have you heard what this guy preaches? Have you read what he says he believes in?

WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE BEMOAN HIS CHURCH FALLING APART?

[Octafish]

29. Amen.

You hit the nail on the head, ret5hd. The Fellowship is one iceberg that needs melting.

[Burried News]

7. Leaders who betray a trust need to be punished.

He is being slain by the same sword he would wield against others ... so be it.
I will not rejoice but I shall not mourn.

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

8. I sort of know what you mean.

I live in a small community where 2 men are running for state rep. Each of them has a child in the high school where I work. The ads have gotten ugly and it's hard to see the effect on their kids.

HOWEVER....I consider myself a decent christian and a decent human being. The hypocrisy of these national religious figures has to stop. I realize Mr. Haggard is just accused at this point, but it doesn't look good.

I guess I just long for the day when I can call myself a Christian and have people assume I'm kind, loving, a hard-worker against poverty and injustice, fair, forgiving, accepting.:shrug:

[ldf]

130. it IS too bad that "christian" has become as derogatory

as "liberal".

and who brought us to this level?

the so-called "christians" turned liberal into an insult, when almost everything that is caring and honorable about this country is based in a liberal philosphy.

and it is SOOOO appropriate that those same so-called "christians" have turned their own name into an insult.

total kharmageddon.

[BootinUp]

9. Its a chance to right some incredible wrongs

I think a lot of noise and ruckus should be raised and people who followed this shmuck should be made to rethink their faith in taking away others rights.

[Ian David]

10. Why would people walking away from a church be a bad thing?

Oh, please...

Let his "fellowship" fall apart.

Let the hate-mongering bigots at his "church" lose their jobs.

Fuck them all.

The only ones I feel sorry for are his children.

His wife?

She's an adult.

She should have been able to see him for the crazy-ass bigoted bastard that he is.

Fuck them all.

[Oleladylib]

12. The results of his actions could affect many but shouldn't be

overdramatized..Our church has had two scandals in the past 15 years..and we are survivors..Pastors are humans..subject to humaness..Shame on them when the proclaim one thing and practice another..Congregations are "bigger" than the scandal..Sorry for his family..yes.

[Perky]

20. Perhaps

but non-denominational mega-churches tend to be undulyenamored with the charisma od the pastor... They tend to also be a revolving door because you tend to get lost in such a big church. that means the investment by the congregation can be pretty shallow.

[Oleladylib]

22. That's interesting..n/t

[BootinUp]

33. Built on a faulty foundation

There is nothing wrong about it coming down it is to be expected.

[Gormy Cuss]

106. If that's the case with the New Lifers, then so be it.

If their attachment is so shallow that the church fails without Haggard, the church has no foundation. The members will move on to new congregations, some again caught by a personality pastor but some instead will choose a church where faith is first and preachers are second.

I suspect it won't fail because they have already moved to preserve it by installing a new head who is a known leader within the church. They'll probably lose some members but that's about it.
(as someone suggests up thread, read the Harper's article if you haven't.)

[keepCAblue]

13. Do unto others.

I'm reminded of the the in-your-face joyousness and gloating of the xtian wrong--people like Haggard, his wife and his parishioners--have displayed every time they win an anti-gay court decision or piece of discriminatatory legislation they have created and promoted, all at the expense of sexual minorities who live their lives openly and honestly.

I'm one of those minorities. For the past six years, I've had to suffer the bitter victories of these hate-slinging hypocrites. I'll spare them the same amount of "kindness" his pious ilk have shown me and mine: Zero. Nada. NONE.

[Karenina]

31. I have nothing but contempt

for RoyCohns and closet queens. I have happily participated in charades to cover for friends who were forced to be discreet about their orientation and needed protection or plausible deniability. But for those who HIDE, LIE and ATTACK, I have NO MERCY.

[keepCAblue]

42. Amen. eom

[Catherine Vincent]

15. Can't we gloat just for a little while?

Geeze.

[StellaBlue]

16. I don't

He represents everything I hated about growing up in a small town in the South.

Evangelical, hypocritical, self-righteous, anti-intellectual, etc., etc., etc.

He also represents everything wrong with this country.

I don't feel sorry for his "flock", either. The guys is obviously nutso (have you seen any of the video footage of him on the web?); they're gullible fools who are driving the entire world into the ditch, all the while waving their hysterical hands in the air and praying to their invisible, vengeful god. They can all kiss my ass. They need a wake-up call.

[AntiFascist]

17. What about the total hypocrisy of a faux "Christian" church...

who feel that Bush was chosen to lead the world into apolcalyptic war? (I assume that since Haggard serves as a regular consultant to the President that he must have something to do with this.) I pray that the fellowship falls down, and hard, so that they consider what it is that they really stand for.

[Faygo Kid]

21. Tired of their hypocrisy, accusations, charges of us being traitors. "Kind" is not the issue here.

This preacher can seek God's forgiveness for his hypocrisy and hate, I will extend my sympathy to those whose basic human rights he has railed against, to the poor he turned his back on in favor of Bush's wealthy minions, to the gullible whose hard earned money he has taken under false pretenses. I try to live a decent life, by my own lights, yet have to hear again and again from this same crowd how my vehement opposition to this war since well before its inception makes me a terrorist lover, while the Bushes and their rich pals send somebody else's kids off to be killed while their own party hearty, all the while mouthing empty platitudes about their (empty) concern for the troops. I am angry, and that anger includes Haggard and his ilk, who will now make excuses for him while condemning Michael J. Fox and John Kerry for being for research to save lives and against a war that takes them. Rove, Limbaugh, Dobson, Boehner, Cheney, Bush, Coulter and all the others in their limitless hubris have forgotten the simple warning, you reap what you sow. And now they will inherit the wind.

[Perky]

27. Wow. Has Haggard done all this???

[mntleo2]

72. He Has Led that Crap, Yes

...as a Christian, before I knew of his sexual hypocrisies, I was ashamed of this guy. He is a limousine riding, avaricious, private jet flying, gay hating, war mongering, minister who promotes people who practice child enslavement and forced prostitution while hating the poor and downtrodden and profited from gullible people. He is in the same place as the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobsen and their ilk. They are ALL disgusting. They have spit on the image of Jesus and promoted nationalism, wars and enslavement of people, encouraging the hatred of others not of their own faith, and openly showing a love of money in the place of loving your neighbor.

I am sorry for his followers who do not seem to have enough sense to use the brains that God gave them. For being so "religious" while pasting their yellow ribbons on gas guzzling, war causing SUVs, all they have to do is read the Bible and they would know in a minute who these people are: snake oil preachers looking for a way to profit from the name of God.

It is pure blasphemy!

Jesus says that if you want to follow Him you should give away all you have and you will live in poverty. The message here is that the world's power is not what we are supposed to be seeking. Unlike the "leadership" this man has shown, we are supposed to be seeking a way to live in love, not in making a buck. Mahatma Gandhi, who was inspired by the Sermon On The Mount and lived in poverty, was far more of s Christian than this man ever thought to be, and the Mahatma (Mahatma means 'Great Soul' because they could see Gandhi's aura for over a mile) was Hindu. That right there should tell us something of how to be a true Christian and one hint is: you give up the things of this world and having a job that buys a lot of gaudy trinkets is not where its at.

I could care less if this man is gay. What I do care about is that he is fine going about in secret screwing men while condemning it and would rather enslave women and force them to bear children without any means of support than to spare such misery! And don't talk to me about adoption. There are already thousands of American kids languishing in foster homes right now that have no parents, millions of homeless starving children in the world without any parents because they were killed in wars and disease, thanks to the teachings of the likes of him. Because of their hypocrisy, his and his like has caused a great deal of suffering and war while profiting from it. This is something that can be judged and needs to be judged by people who have been on the other end of his "religion". It is not something one can easily forgive ~ especially if they are on the receiving end of his policies.

My 2 cents

Cat in Seattle

[Binka]

86. Cat Please Post This As A Thread It Is A Beautiful Summation

Worth much more than 2 cents!

[Judi Lynn]

109. You couldn't be more accurate. Breathtakingly focused.

You said what the Lord loves, nothing less. Your intelligence and your belief, based upon your observations worked together to express in four paragraphs what could take PAGES from someone else, which still might not cover all the important points.

Obviously you've been thinking about this a long time. It hasn't been a pretty sight, either, has it? So glad to read your post. Thanks.

[AlCzervik]

23. i don't care if he's straight, gay or bi, it's about hypocrisy. He cheated on

his wife if the story is true, cheated on his wife Mr. Sanctity of marriage.

[AlinPA]

24. He preaches bigotry and his "flock" and faithfools follow him. Enough said.

[fudge stripe cookays]

25. Oh please.

:eyes:

Your Christian mercy is misplaced. Save it for someone who needs it, like the poor souls in Oaxaca fighting the good fight.

[TlalocW]

30. I'll worry about being seen as kinder

As soon as 1. we're done kicking the crap out of the republicans for almost destroying the country and 2. we've cleaned up their mess once again.

TlalocW

[William Bloode]

34. I've had similar feelings.

I have the same feelings about those who wish to expose people sexual lives for their benifit.

[Gold Metal Flake]

37. I gloat with gusto.

I feel no guilt.

[liberal N proud]

38. If it wasn't for their hypocrisy, it wouldn't be such a big deal

These people preach against the very things they do themselves. Take that out of the equation and there really wouldn't be the furor over this sort of crap.

Foley was criminal, this guy is just one of the biggest hypocrites out there.

[seabeyond]

43. he lacks the integrity to teach followers, people that leave themselves

vulnerable in spirituality with his own lies. he is using and manipulating and creating a lot of pain, when it is not necessary thru his own misdeeds. he is preaching a falsehood that cannot be obtained,even by his own examples that hurts not only his followers but a nation and world. hence what has happened to our nation in judgment and hate and the ability to go to holy war with no conscience. it effects us all.

one can be merciful in truth and though it may be a painful experience for him, it can also be an opportunity to heal and further the same opportunity for those that allowed themselves to be manipulated by this man to heal... christianity as a whole to heal. without the truth, without honesty, the worst of christianity will be

[hatrack]

44. I am all out of "kind" for hypocrisy this venomous and on this scale

Haggard has made his life and his success and built his church on the premise that

(1) He and his flock are righteous and pure and saved;

(2) We and those not of his flock are depraved and filthy and hellbound;

(3) George W. Bush and the current flock of wolves in clerical collars are divinely inspired, while those of other political persuasions are deluded and damned;

(4) Homosexuals and other deviants are not fully human, not entitled to the same rights and legal protections as other United States citizens because they are possessed by demons.

Well, alrighty then. One can only suppose that Pastor Ted is either demonically possessed, or just another flaming fucking hypocrite happy to harness hate in the service of inflating his own tiny shriveled little . . . ego.

Maybe you have kindness I should have, but lack. Maybe you're a better and more merciful person. Maybe I'm just more hateful than I should be. Fine, so be it. But hypocrisy and venom and self-righteousness and out-and-out groveling in the service of Caesar while ostensibly humbly serving Christ is a spectacle that, after having seen it again and again and again in the last 20 years, I just can't take anymore. Toss in the accusations of a multi-year homosexual affair, and it's just the rotten Pharischino cherry on top of the fascism root beer float.

Fuck Haggard. I'm all out of nice for people like him.

[Perky]

48. can you give me evidence of any of your four points?

[BootinUp]

51. Are you in a conservative evangelical church?

Pentacostal, or even Southern Baptists many members of the congregations would line up with those 4 points in my experience.

[Perky]

55. Hold it Youmade those accusations against Haggard

Not against conservative evangelical churches. From what I have ween of this guy the church is a lot like Hybel's church WIllow Creek which means a watered down gospel and largely apolitical.

What I am suggesting is that the accustation you made were direected specifically at Haggard and I am not sure(one way or the other) that he had doenw the thing you suggets.

[BootinUp]

75. Actually it was another poster and I jumped into

the conversation, but I admit i am not sure what kind of church Haggard runs. I assumed it was evangelical conservative. I will have to check if that is correct, until then please ignore my comment.

[hatrack]

71. Well, for starters, try this from another post:

At the end of "Conviction," the documentary about the three Dominican sisters sent to federal prison for their 2002 peace demonstration at a Weld County nuclear missile site, a clip from President Reagan's second inaugural address appears almost hauntingly.

"We seek the total elimination one day of nuclear weapons from the face of the Earth," the then-president says.

His words stand in stark contrast to those of the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, who appears throughout the film calling the women "terrorists."

I thought I recognized this douchbag from the film. I just saw the DVD two weeks ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2555614

Original sourcing:

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3669475

So let's begin here - Ted Haggard prepared to condemn three women who were prepared to go to prison and take the consequences of their open, honest and committed opposition to nuclear weapons. Oh, and he's not just condemning them for their actions - he's condemning them as "terrorists".

Then there's this - Ted Haggard using the amazing power o' prayer to influence Ukrainian elections:

“There was,” Pastor Ted said one afternoon in his office, “a significant influence exerted on the last election by Colorado Springs.” He was meeting with me and another reporter, an Australian from a financial paper.

“You mean,” the Australian asked, “almost like a force going out from Colorado Springs?”

A force—Pastor Ted liked that. He smiled and offered other examples. His favorite was the Ukraine, where, he claimed, a sister church to New Life had led the protests that helped sweep the pro-Western candidate into power. Kiev is, in fact, home to Europe's largest evangelical church, and over the last dozen years the Ukrainian evangelical population has grown more than tenfold, from 250,000 to 3 million. According to Ted, it was this army of Christian capitalists that took to the streets. “They're pro-free markets, they're pro-private property,” he said. “That's what evangelical stands for.”

In Pastor Ted's book Dog Training, Fly Fishing, & Sharing Christ in the 21st Century, he describes the church he thinks good Christians want. “I want my finances in order, my kids trained, and my wife to love life. I want good friends who are a delight and who provide protection for my family and me should life become difficult someday . . . I don't want surprises, scandals, or secrets . . . I want stability and, at the same time, steady, forward movement. I want the church to help me live life well, not exhaust me with endless ‘worthwhile’ projects.” By “worthwhile projects” Ted means building funds and soup kitchens alike. It's not that he opposes these; it's just that he is sick of hearing about them and believes that other Christians are, too. He knows that for Christianity to prosper in the free market, it needs more than “moral values”—it needs customer value.

New Lifers, Pastor Ted writes with evident pride, “like the benefits, risks, and maybe above all, the excitement of a free-market society.” They like the stimulation of a new brand. “Have you ever switched your toothpaste brand, just for the fun of it?” Pastor Ted asks. Admit it, he insists. All the way home, you felt a “secret little thrill,” as excited questions ran through your mind: “Will it make my teeth whiter? My breath fresher?” This is the sensation Ted wants pastors to bring to the Christian experience. He believes it is time “to harness the forces of free-market capitalism in our ministry.” Once a pastor does that, his flock can start organizing itself according to each member's abilities and tastes.

http://harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist.html

Yes, Jesus talked about lot about market forces and the sanctity of private property, didn't he?

Then there's this little tidbit:

And that is why he believes spiritual war requires a virile, worldly counterpart. “I teach a strong ideology of the use of power,” he says, “of military might, as a public service.” He is for preemptive war, because he believes the Bible's exhortations against sin set for us a preemptive paradigm, and he is for ferocious war, because “the Bible's bloody. There's a lot about blood.”

(Link as above)

So, free markets, private property and preemptive war - movingly Christian, don't you agree?

Oh, and then there's this:

When I walked in, an hour late, they were talking about Christian film criticism—whether such a thing could, or should, exist. Then they talked about the tsunami and wondered with concern whether any of the city's preachers would try to score points off it. When I mentioned that Pastor Ted already had, they cringed. I told them that at the previous Sunday's full-immersion baptism service, Pastor Ted had noted that the waves hit the “number-one exporter of radical Islam,” Indonesia. “That's not a judgment,” he'd announced. “It's an opportunity.” I told them of similar analyses from Pastor Ted's congregation: one man said that he wished he could “get in there” among the survivors, since their souls were “ripe,” and another told me he was “psyched” about what God was “doing with His ocean.”

That's right, Ted himself praising God for a tsunami that killed more than 200,000 people because of his interpretation of political movements in the archipelago so affected. Movingly merciful, don't you agree?

:eyes:

[BootinUp]

81. This piece paints a less authoritarian brand of evangelicals

Though he preaches evangelical unity, Haggard has not hesitated to criticize better-known colleagues. He rebuked Pat Robertson for advocating the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and attempted to separate the evangelical movement from Franklin Graham's statement after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that Islam was an evil and wicked religion.

And Haggard said last week that the White House erred in underscoring failed Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers' evangelical faith, saying her judicial philosophy was what mattered.

He also set himself apart from the vast majority of evangelical Christian groups by applauding a 2003 Supreme Court decision that struck down a Texas anti- sodomy law.

"I believe the church has to teach against immorality, but I don't believe it's the role of the state to spend money to find out what consenting adults do in their bedrooms and then haul them off to jail," Haggard said.

The NAE, observers say, will need to weigh the greater prominence and energy Haggard has brought with the risk of associating itself too closely with one person - a person with close ties to a White House in trouble.

In the meantime, the fresh new face of big-tent evangelical Christianity has an appointment to keep. Haggard is visiting New York next week to talk about poverty and AIDS in Africa with Bono, singer of the popular-music group U2.

http://www.tedhaggard.com/denverPost.jsp

[smirkymonkey]

124. WTF? Bono is hanging out w/ Haggard?

It was bad enough when he was running around with other members of the establishment, but I have completely lost whatever little respect I had left for him.

[Binka]

88. Damn Hatrack I Think You Took The Perk Out Of Perky With That

Thank you so much for your intelligent candor this is a powerful and very convicting post. Thanks again.

[Judi Lynn]

110. He rejoices in bloodshed, revels in materialism. Just what you'd look for

in a self-proclaimed holy man.

Thank you for your excerpts, sources, and comments. You show EXACTLY why he was valuable to _{George W. Bush.}

[smirkymonkey]

123. OK - I formally renounce my post about feeling sorry for him in

another thread. At the time, I saw a tragic figure in abject humiliation, not knowing quite how hateful or venomous he was. I knew very little about him other than the fact that he was a self-loathing gay man posing as a Christian Crusader. I do think he is mentally ill. However, I do not feel sorry for him any longer based upon futher examination. I think the situation is tragic all the way around.

[april]

45. oh what a tangled web we weave when we

practice to deceive

[mondo joe]

46. If I could gloat hard enough to break my ribcage he'd deserve it

This asshole has been part of a WAR on me and my family. He deserves what he's made for himself.

[ronnykmarshall]

101. You got that right Mondo.

Sorry but I'm not going shed one tear for this son of a bitch.

[mac56]

47. It's not his homosexuality that's being outed - it's his hypocrisy.

"But his wife....his five kids..... and his flock are reeling right now. The fellowship could fall apart over this....I suspect the entire church staff could lose their jobs as people just walk away."

If it's all true, all these things were built on a house of cards. No matter what the outcome, they're better off knowing the truth.

[Perky]

50. Of course you are right...but again it is nothing to gloat over.

[AZBlue]

49. It's not a little shameful...It's VERY shameful.

Thank you for your post.

[opihimoimoi]

52. If the BushCo can gloat over Kerry's slip....calling it a gift to the PUBs

Then we can call this affair between Ted and his male lover a gift to the DEMs....thats not gloating...thats justice coming home.

[Shakespeare]

53. Do not worship false prophets.

Oh, I think all 30,000 of his flock needs a little bring-down. And I say that as a Christian.

I will fully admit to gloating a little, because Haggard and his flock have so obscenely twisted what Christianity is supposed to be about--seems like divine justice, to me.

[Perky]

58. ok I will bite

What is CHristianity supposed to be and how has THIS particular flock obscenely twisted it?

[Marr]

54. Yeah, I feel just terrible.

The "double life" he led was one in which he demonized and fostered prejudice towards gays, while he was (allegledly) engaged in the same behavior himself. I don't know whether he was a public hate-monger simply for money, or for power, or what- but, if the accusations are true, he is the most profound type of hypocrite. I haven't got an ounce of sympathy for a man who so separates his word from his actions.

And frankly, I think we'd all be better off if his "flock" *did* get a good dose of disillusionment.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

56. I had to do a lot of research just to figure out who the hell he is

Doesn't seem to have much relevance in my world.

[w13rd0]

57. As a person who was subjected...

...to the particular brand of hypocritcal hatred Haggard is fond of preaching, I'll shed no tears for him or his flock.

[Lethe]

59. this guy made millions preaching hate against people just like himself

i attended a church where two prominent staff members were convicted for child molestation, and the church members all said the same things you are saying.

consider this God's way of judging Haggard and his nazi church.

[Perky]

61. Millions?

Evidence?

[Malikshah]

68. Do the math

http://www.nae.net/index.cfm?FUSEACTION=nae.history

30.00 per individual membership....millions of members....Haggard President of group...

Yup-- he made millions based partly on homophobic hatred.

[Perky]

77. Oh you are talking NAE not his flock

NAE is predominantly focused on Denominations rather than individuals and that is how they get to their millions of members.

[Malikshah]

78. Uh....as President of the NAE...awww forgit it.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[Perky]

80. Yeah ok what is his salary?

YOu said he was makeing millions where is the proof?

Again I am not defending him at all....But you said he was making millions

[BootinUp]

79. I assume

there is also the regular church budget contributions which members are expected to contribute tithe 10% of their income.

[Malikshah]

62. Uh...it's hypocrisy. It's not about being gay or not

And one person's gloat is often another's satisfactory justice....

[ruggerson]

65. Try walking in a gay or lesbian American's shoes

for a week and you will see this quite differently.

As for their "fellowship" falling apart, since the "fellowship" is based on hate and untruths, what is the problem with it falling apart?

[specimenfred1984]

66. Awl, BooHoo

Poor little ole DUers not living up to your standards?

[Perky]

69. Now wait a minute

All I was saying it is not nice to glaot. I never said that it was impermissable....Just not what I think is appropriate... My standard does not need in any sense to be anybody else's standard.

[Lethe]

74. this isn't gloating, its justice

jesus is smiling somewhere :)

[Perky]

70. Now wait a minute

All I was saying it is not nice to glaot. I never said that it was impermissable....Just not what I think is appropriate... My standard does not need in any sense to be anybody else's standard.

[mondo joe]

115. I guess I'm not nice. I'm good, but not nice. n/t

[Red Right and BLUE]

67. That's noble. Not me. nt

[greenbriar]

73. that is exactly the kind of bullshit that gets us in trouble...

half of ya want kerry to apologize

the other half wants to call him a pussy


then we get slammed...


DON'T YOU GET IT...THE GLOVES ARE OFF AND WE MUST FIGHT FOR OUR LIVES AND AMERICA

[rpannier]

84. AMEN, My Friend

Love your post.

As I have posted several times over the past few months...This is about WINNING! I am in favor of taking no prisoners in this campaign (as crude as that may sound)

The republikkans have had no problem belittling what being a liberal means. They demonize us and call us traitors.

We lost the '88 Presidential election because our candidate allowed the Willie Horton ads to go unanswered. IMO Dukakis should have responded in kind. He didn't, he looked weak and he lost.

2006...No moral victories. Only real victories.

[pitohui]

76. oh for the love of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

an evil dirty-minded hypocrite has been exposed and you think we should not celebrate?

jeebus, did you cry when hitler shot himself too?

:eyes:

[mitchum]

82. I have NO pity for that grifting cocksucker...

Yes, I am gloating and have NO shame about. Fuck him and all of the saps he fleeced.

[Binka]

90. I Love You Even More..... "Grifting Cocksucker"... ROFLMAO

That about sums it up Mitchum. :loveya:

[TheFarseer]

87. I don't care if he's gay

I don't care if he paid to have sex with guys. I CARE that he says how evil it is to do exactly what he was doing in secret. This "do as I say, not as I do" bullshit is wearing me out. Just like bush prosecuting a war on drugs when he was a cokehead. Just like the BFEE invading Iraq because they used the WMDs we sold them. I'm not going to just accept blatant hypocrisy.

[Vinca]

89. "I just wish DUers were a little kinder . . ."

That's one reason we've lost so many elections. We can't be afraid to outsmear the smear machine every so often. Personally, I don't care at all who is gay or is not gay. It's none of my business. I do care about these characters in lofty positions swaying the flock with a ton of BS every Sunday about how evil homosexuality is and how they must get out to vote to "protect the sanctity of marriage." The bastards should leave their mansions once in awhile and feed the poor.

[Lefty-Taylor]

125. Yep.

What Vinca said ... :thumbsup:

[jonnyblitz]

91. "it's just my own christian mercy showing through here"

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Judi Lynn]

111. You've got it! Virtue doesn't announce itself. It simply IS, with or without

a standing ovation, and it NEVER seeks recognition.

A fine (HUGE) point some will never be able to grasp.

[Hubert Flottz]

92. We need to return the GOP's kind of "Kindness" in kind!

[mondo joe]

94. It's just my own GAY mercy showing through here, but I'll reserve my

tender feelings for the people victimized by this asshole and his friends.

[Armstead]

95. Normally I'd agree with you but....

I posted a similar post about feeling sorry for Foley.

But at this point, we deserve some gloat time, because of what people like Haggard have done to the real moral climate of America.

[warrens]

96. You gotta be kidding

This HATEMONGER gets in trouble, resigns, and you feel SORRY for him? Gimme a break. The scumbag is finding out what stirring up hate and bigotry gets you.

As someone on one of the talk shows this morning pointed out, if anything, Dems are just too fucking nice. Did one person jump on Rummy when he slammed the troops by saying "you fight with the army you have, not the one you want?" No, not one person did.

It's time these scumbuckets found out that their strategy of smearing and lying opens them up to even more serious charges. Was Kerry guilty of criticizing the troops? No. Did the Repukes show reason about it? No.

Payback is a bitch.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

97. Thank the gods...

you are always here to spank us when we have the audacity to speak out against Christianity or Christian religious leaders. :eyes:

I was raised Roman Catholic, and all I can say about Ted Haggart and his ilk is, "Karma's a fucking bitch."

Instead of Christ's teachings of love, compassion, and acceptance, he preached hatred and bigotry, and his congregation loved him for it.

They all made their beds, and I leave them to it. God hit them upside the head with a big karmic baseball bat -- I sincerely hope for their sakes, they got the message.

[progressivebydesign]

98. What does the bible say about hypocrites?

Frankly, I tired of these posts where someone is defending an aldutering, tweaking, law breaking, hateful, hypocrite. This man was not just a closeted gay, but he worked tirelessly to trash other gays through his position of trust. I won't shut up about the guy.. he's a scumbag that preyed upon the good people that believed in him and gave thousdands and thousands of dollars for.. for what? For a lie! SO he could buy more meth and pay a prostitute. Disgusting.

[Perky]

103. I offered not one scintilla of defense

It is absolutely disgusting. He deserves to be run out of time on a rail. I just don't like the gloating about it.

[trotsky]

100. Yeah, I'll weep terribly...

should his "fellowship" dedicated to fighting against the rights of my fellow Americans fall apart. :eyes:

[Lars39]

102. Have you read the Harper's article about how he 'grew' his church?

Wrestling with the Devil in public? Puh-leese.
He's a con man that held enough influence to be elected the president of the largest religious lobbying group in the US, a group that is trying to take away rights.

Here's the article:
http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html

[Rosemary2205]

104. Haggard deserves intervention not kindness at this point

He needs to understand the consequences of his choices. He needs intervention. A kick in the ass not a hug. If he repents and changes his behavior the hugs can come later.

[Perky]

105. I am fine with that too.

[BigMcLargehuge]

107. Maybe "his flock" will be a little smarter after this.

Probably not, but maybe. If you put all your trust in one guy, and believe that he does no wrong and has a hotline directly to god, then you deserve to reel when his facade crumbles under the weight of his hypocracy. People should examine their core beliefs often, sometimes the opportunity to do that is thrust upon us and that's a good thing.

[rzemanfl]

108. On this one, it's you, but not me. Sorry. This guy is the reason

for the word schadenfruede (sp?).

[longship]

112. He made his bed. Let him sleep in it.

I'm all over the schadenfreude on this.
Screw Haggard. Let him wallow in his own pus.

[Riddler]

113. I don't feel the least bit shameful or sorry, only elated!

We've been force-fed a brand of morality and ethics that dictates we should all live our lives in the way that these evangelical mullahs see fit. They have tried to instill their own ideas of how we should live our lives, and gone so far as to even try to legislate our morality. When one of these asshats gets caught displaying the exact same moral lapses they have been railing against, and criticizing citizens for for years, then I can only sit back and revel in the fact their own human moral frailties got the better of them, yet we, as a people, according to them, are not supposed to have those same human moral frailities. They are hypocrites of the worst degree, and I can only sit here and hope and pray that the dirt on the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world are soon exposed for all to revel in!

[youthere]

114. IMO the only ones deserving sympathy are his children. n/t

[malaise]

117. Well I'm shameless

and as another Rethug hypocrite is exposed I am just loving it.:popcorn: :popcorn: :rofl:

[nini]

119. OH BULLSHIT

Let me tell you that I am fucking sick of showing any of those hateful, hypocritical enabling neocons ANY SLACK.

The hate mongering support for an administration that has sent this country down a path of self-destruction doesn't deserve a fucking ounce of compassion when they are exposed for the scum they are.

What does is say if people who have 'preached' against what are the basic principles and rights this country is supposed to stand for get a free pass when they are exposed for the liars they are and we just decide to say 'I won't call them on their shit because some feelings may be hurt'? Those folks have helped strip down American rights, our reputation worldwide, allowed the deaths of almost 3,000 of our troops and countless innocent Iraqis, screwed the poor in this country, the patriotic act, and on and on and on.

SO FUCK THIS NOTION WE HAVE TO HAVE ANY SENSE OF PITY for those assholes.

I pity the folks who now live in poverty, don't have health insurance, lost loved ones in Iraq, etc.. I will not waste my time feeling bad those who have intentionally fucked over this country and are getting exposed for the hypocrites they are.


let me add this on an edit: As far as all those around him that may be affected by his fall - they deserve what they get too for not doing their own homework and finding out what the truth is out there. They allowed themselves to be blindly led without taking it upon themselves to seek the truth. The best I hope from them is they learn a lesson from their failure to put faith in that lying sack of shit.

SORRY BUT FUCK THAT UP ONE SIDE AND DOWN THE OTHER.

[Beelzebud]

120. This is why people say liberals don't know how to fight.

Politics isn't kind.

The nice guy DOES finish last.

[fishwax]

122. His flock will be better off as a result of this

removing the scales from the eyes, and all that. I feel sorry for his family. For him, not at all.

His radical agenda has damaged our country and helped make countless lives worse. Exposing him as a fraud, if these charges are in fact true, is a good thing.

[madfloridian]

126. Maybe you need to see this video...the utter hypocrisy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=2119

[kestrel91316]

127. Shameful to be happy over the outing of another hypocritical

Christofascist who seeks nothing less than the deaths of a large portion of our population (for that is what these people are REALLY about)???

WTF is shameful about that, pray tell?

You are either very naive and just don't understand Dominionism, or you are faking the dismay.

[MODemocrat]

128. You think we're shameful; look what the republicans did to Kerry

They took his little blunder, and made a mountain out of a mole hill. Do you think for a minute if the
reverend were a democrat, the republicans would "be nice"? Guess again. The reverend put himself in this spot, not any of us. The only one I feel any pity for is his family. He had no business trying to
buy drugs, in his position in the religious world. He just couldn't resist the temptation, like so many
of us; We're weak, and we make mistakes.

It's the hypocricy of it that bothers me. He could and should have kept his opinion to himself about
gay people. I'd be the last one to dislike him if he were gay; my beloved and favorite niece was gay
all her life; and the whole family loved her partner. So, again, it's not his involvement with a gay
man; merely, his condemning others for having the same feelings. That's being a hypocrite!!!

opinio:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[leesa]

129. I sincerely hope the fellowship falls apart. I hope it crumbles into a thousand

pieces and the people regain their senses and their spirituality. This is a cult of hate and intolerance and it is not a thing to be upheld. All of the children are victims, of course, and they should be nurtured and proteced as they go through this recovery. The guy's wife may have been unaware of what was going on as well. But these congregations are willfully hurting people and I feel no pain at their demise. I think it's long past time.