What does the term "looks gay" mean?

[William769]

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Depends on the context.

Like all things, there is no way to offer an opinion in any sort of absolutist rubric.

Give us the conditions and the situation, and then we can offer an opinion.

[William769]

3. When is there ever a right time to use that term?

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. For instance, when a gay man looks at another man and says,

"he looks gay! YAY!"

I can only assume you aren't gay. I've spent a lot of time with gay friends and have often heard the words "looks gay" used in an excited, wonderful way.

I've also spent time with homophobes and heard "looks gay" used as an insult.

All about context, baby. All about context.

[Bluebear]

135. Your gay friends are, um, odd.

Nobody says "Oooooh he looks gay! Yippee!"

[Richard Steele]

173. Maybe not the "yippee" part, but otherwise.....I've heard similar.

And I just gotta say: the meaning of ANY word depends uopn CONTEXT.

Someone once told me "You're a nigger", and the phrase
came as a great RELIEF to me, under the circumstances.

You had to be there.

[William769]

2. Now if people want to talk about "hypocrisy"

Lets talk.

[Catherine Vincent]

4. Alerted!

[William769]

6. Do I smell hypocrisy creeping in?

[Catherine Vincent]

32. I don't know what the hell you're smelling.

[Turbineguy]

Happy?

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Uh

http://www.jacquescabaret.com/

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tyedyeto]

8. Ever heard the term 'gaydar'?

Some have it and some don't. And it has nothing to do whether you're gay or not. More of a 'spot the hypocrite' than anything else.

[William769]

11. So what you are saying is "looks gay" means "hypocrite"?

[tyedyeto]

20. No, I was thinking more along the lines of....

the Repugs who support the 'one man, one woman' stance but have been caught in a, shall we say, compromising situation.

[StrictlyRockers]

12. It means they are "other". Not one of "us".

[mondo joe]

13. Um, to some of US it does mean ONE OF US. NT

[StrictlyRockers]

166. I guess you missed the sarcasm. I should start using the icon...

[AZBlue]

36. Ya know...I'm not gay, but thankfully I'm not one of YOU either.

'nuff said

[StrictlyRockers]

167. Did you look at all of the options?

Do you think the author of the poll made the last option innocently? Or is it a double entendre? I took it that way and was making a point about it. I'm sorry it was lost on you. I'll start using the sarcasm icon to preemt the knee jerkers who are continuously on vigil for something to be offended by.

[Bluebear]

137. "Gaydar" perpetuates stereotypes. nt

[donheld]

194. "Gaydar" perpetuates what stereotypes?

I have used my gaydar for years. It's a very good thing to have. I don't see what it has to do with stereotypes at all. :shrug:

[boolean]

10. Doesn't mean anything. And I tire of the PCness around here.

Some gay people look gay. Some straight people look gay. Some gay people look straight. Some straight people look straight.

Case in point:


This is a straight comedian that looks gay right now.

Get over yourselves. I hate political correctness. There is too much of it around here.

[William769]

14. So your saying he looks gay?

So this is how a Gay person is suppose to look?

[boolean]

17. NO.

It's not how a gay person is "supposed" to look. But you can't deny that a lot of them do look like this. AND THAT'S OKAY. Why do we have to be so fucking dishonest in the name of political correctness? It's a stereotype, sure. But so what? There shouldn't be any shame or embarrassment for all the gay people that DO dress like this, and it's insulting to THEM when you say they shouldn't look like this because it perpetuates some sort of stereotype.

[William769]

19. Need some more rope?

[Kerrytravelers]

28. This isn't the first time we've heard the anti-PC argument.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5788993

People aren't allowed to have a different opinion.

[boolean]

33. Tell me about it!

And that got locked because so many people sweat the small stuff. I don't sweat the small stuff.

[Kerrytravelers]

38. It was locked because it was turning ito a flame war.

People were simply stating their opinion, but were getting slammed and called names. It was turning silly and was rightfully locked.

[Maven]

185. A lot of "them?"

Thanks, I think we get where you're coming from.

BTW, with regard to Sasha Baron Cohen, it seems like you get it, but you don't really get it. Although you acknowledge that this is a straight guy making fun of how gay guys are "supposed" to look, you don't seem to fully understand that it's meant partly as satire of people who expect gay men to look that way.

[Change has come]

22. I'm glad you enjoy stereotypes

definition: A simplified and standardized conception or image of a person or group.

Yeah, political correctness is the problem.

[boolean]

24. I'm glad you enjoy righteous indignation

Because I'm sure when you see someone dressed like Mr. Sacha Baron Cohen above walking down the street, you don't have the slightest thought that he might be gay. :sarcasm:

And like when someone walks down the street with a turban on, you don't think he might have some sort of religious belief of either Sikhism or Islam.

And like when someone is wearing a cross around their neck, you don't think he might be Christian.


:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:

People dress a certain way and sometimes it makes them look like a certain group of people. Get over yourselves, all of you.

[William769]

27. We are used to having people in our group being in denial.

NOT :sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

37. looks like my son and some friends who are not gay, just flamboyant.

There is a difference between dressing as your religion says, for religious purposes, and as your sexual orientation. Or are you saying sexual orientation=religion and there is a Holy Book the Tells you How to Dress?

[Kerrytravelers]

44. Oh! Maybe that's what the Gay Agenda is all about!

It's not about Civil Rights! It's about fashion!

[uppityperson]

47. "Looks" gay=fashion, indeed!

prejudging someone based on how they look. I don't think it can be compared to religious dress stereotyping, even though even that isn't accurate since people to dress up in other religion's recommended (wrong word, but can't think of the right one) style.

[boolean]

50. EVERYBODY judges based on how people look and act

EVERYBODY. Me, you, everybody. And anybody who says they have never judged someone based on how they look, or how the act, or how they talk, or how they smell, or how they fart, WHATEVER, is either completely self deluded or a liar.

It's when we accept that there is nothing wrong with how people dress, look, act, talk, etc. that we truly become a tolerant and accepting society. NOT when we all become PC robots who can't accept the fact that we are all human and we all have preconceptions of other people.

[uppityperson]

of course we judge people based on how they look and act

but pegging them into a category because of how they look and act can be avoided or at least minimized. As I have pointed out here, my son looks like the person with the flamboyant outfit and he is not gay. I have short hair sometimes, have been told I look like a lesbian because of it and amused by what this tells me about the speaker. Of course we judge people, all the time. But how do you interpret what you see? That is the question.

Does a man dressing flamboyantly, or fashionably, make him gay? Or even look gay? Those who say "yes" I think have not had enough contact with people who are gay who do not look like this. Wednesday, in "Addams Family" makes a point of her halloween costume being a mass murderer because "they look like eveyone else".

Being open and accepting of people is being open to people dressing as they want, acting as they want, (so long as they don't hurt others) and not stereotyping them as things like "gay".

[Kerrytravelers]

54. Yep. People do judge. But one shouldn't be proud of that fact.

One needs to acknowledge it, change it, and not encourage others. It's wrong and unfair to judge others. It's especially wrong to continue to say something when that particular phrase has such a hateful meaning. "Looks gay" may not be mean spirited coming from you, but the saying is one that is meant to marginalize. I don't allow children in my classroom to say things like "that's gay" "you're gay" etc. when meaning something is dumb or weak. It's simply not a good habit to get into.

Amazingly, I've gone many years without thinking it or saying it and I've survived just fine. I make other comments or judgments that I'm sure I will someday learn is not appreciated by others. I take that information and learn from it. I don't continue it out of stubbornness just so I can be right and them wrong.

In fact, a few years ago, here on DU, I had an opinion about Halle Berry referring to many Hollywood studio heads as racist. I was chastised and corrected. I learned. In fact, I spent time over at the African-American board and really learned a lot. It was a good lesson. One that I learned from.

[mondo joe]

25. Pshaw. Every gay person alive has experienced a sense of others being gay.

We've identified each other for a loooooooong time that way.

[Placebo]

23. Damn straight.

[uppityperson]

29. looks like uppityjr and jr is not gay, just flamboyant.

[Bluebear]

141. "PC"- a right wing term bemoaning the fact you can't speak stereotypically

[Democrats_win]

15. Uhhh....He's talking about a Republican Super "Christian"?

[kstewart33]

16. There is a 'gay' look but I'll be danged if I can define it.

Mark Foley has it. Haggard has it but to a lesser extent.

But not all of those who 'have it' are gay. My first serious boyfriend 'had it' and was not gay. And not all guys who don't 'have it' are straight. My brother looks like a lumberjack and he's gay.

Confusing. But where's the relevance? What's wrong about being gay? If you're proud of who you are, who cares?

A poster earlier asked about the homophobia at DU. I disagree. It's the hypocrisy of Foley and perhaps Haggard that's galling. Gayness has nothing to do with it.

[roody]

26. I thought "looks gay" means a man is well-dressed

and clean and well groomed. It is (was) a bigoted statement against straight men.

[patricia92243]

18. The question and the choices given do not match. So, I'm going to answer the question.

Someone saying a guy looks gay means that he appears to have effeminate mannerisms.

Silly statement, but that is what "looks gay" means.

[Placebo]

21. Oh COME ON!

Some people just LOOK GAY! And this is coming from a GAY MAN.

The way they dress, the way they present themselves....

Some guys are obviously FLAMING FLAMERS and some ladies are obviously RAGING BULL DYKES.

That's just reality, folks. Maybe it ain't PC to say so, but it's true.

[Duncan Grant]

30. I love all of the 'hair-splitting' here.

99.0% of the time, "looks gay" is an expression of CONTEMPT. Let's quit splitting hairs and deal with reality of how some DUers choose to express themselves. Shall we?

[William769]

35. That was the point I have been trying to make

I keep hearing it's about "hypocrisy", well yes it is about hypocrisy but not in the context they want us to believe.

[Duncan Grant]

63. Point being: How some posters use 'looks gay' as a pejorative here at DU.

Is it safe to assume you were commenting on the ongoing discourse that occurs around here (DU) whenever there's a Foley moment, or a Gannon moment, or a Haggard moment, etc.? That's really what this is about, isn't it?

I think it's also safe to assume that we all understand that 'looks gay' has a broader context outside of DU -- we totally, totally get it. He has a nice haircut and a pretty face, ergo: "looks gay" -- so, let's move on.

I saw a post yesterday (by a DUer who joined in 2001) that called Rush and Rove 'cocksuckers'. I mention it only to reinforce the point in my previous post about contempt. (To the credit of the mods, the post was deleted.)

It's about the contempt.

Keep fighting the good fight, William. :thumbsup:

[Kerrytravelers]

42. Exactly. Well said.

Oopppsss. I guess I'm the PC Police. Where is my badge?

Maybe I could be the PC Wizard instead. The costume is much more fun to wear- less constrictive around the middle, know what I mean?

[The Straight Story]

43. I think shows like 'queer eye' have made this a much broader discussion

And that is why there has been an eruption over the last few years of 'looks gay' - and not always in a bad way. I had never heard of 'gaydar' until my best friend came out of the closet to me. And as we sat on the porch talking about it he was pointing to people passing by telling me which ones were straight or gay.

Apparently people seem to think some people have a look about them that shows their sexuality. I asked him about me and he said I looked straight. I didn't take it as an expression of contempt, it just seemed to be a casual thing (ie, identifying someone's sexuality).

Now IF there were a bunch of gay folks running about in tv shows, politics, etc, and one could just 'tell' that they were really straight people might catch on more to remaking 'damn, he looks straight as a board' - I THINK (just a hunch) that we are so used to seeing everyone around as straight (thanks to tv/movies/politicians and an expectation that people are straight) that when we can tell someone is gay it is a sort of revelation and people remark about it in a merely social way (to assist in defining someone, you assume they are X and they are really Y, and again it can go both directions).

One seems almost hidden - ie, everyone assumes someone is straight unless they are told otherwise. Straights generally don't pretend to be gay, so there is nothing hidden to most people. And again, I don't think it is that they care so much as folks love to gossip and know things about people.

Or maybe I am just nuts :)

[AZBlue]

31. Means the speaker generalizes & stereotypes and is probably a little bit homophobic

(at least a little bit).

To me, that phrase says a lot about the person saying it and little about those spoken of.

[uppityperson]

34. means the speaker is prejudging someone

that is what it means.

[Union Thug]

39. at risk of being judged harshly, my mind always goes straight to..

...the metrosexual phenomenon... :-)

[karlrschneider]

40. Doesn't mean anything to me. Any more than "looks republican" does.

I certainly can't tell from a picture, hell, I can't tell from a personal meeting some of the time.
My sister was married to a gay guy for 23 years and neither of us knew it until he came 'out' a couple
years ago. But some really ARE obvious, denying that is just dumb.

[William769]

41. "But some really ARE obvious"

So what does an obvious one look like?

[mondo joe]

46. Like this:

Or this:



Or this:

[William769]

49. So you saying all Gay men look like that?

[mondo joe]

53. Let's see.... DID I SAY THAT?

Did I say ALL GAY MEN LOOK LIKE THAT?

Do the gay men pictured there even all look alike?

Let's see if you can answer.

[William769]

55. You responded to "But some really ARE obvious"

I did not say you said that, I was asking you if you think all Gay men look like that. See the difference?

[mondo joe]

58. Since I responded to a post abbout SOME what could make you construe

it to mean ALL ?

Here's a clue: you can review the words used and determine for yourself if I said ALL GAY MEN LOOK LIKE THAT without even asking me -- just see if those are the words I used.

Now my turn: What do you mean when you write "look like that"? I offered photos of 4 different men. To which LOOK were you referring?

[William769]

64. I don't know you tell me?

We seem to have alot of people here who seem to know what a gay man is supposed to look like, but yet no one and I do mean no one has come out and said what a Gay man looks like and I wonder why that is?

[mondo joe]

67. How could I tell you what YOU meant? I'm asking you - of the 4 men I

offered up to you what do you think is the common denominator that you see that makes you refer to them all as having one "look"?

[William769]

71. They are all male.

Why did you pick those four men?

[mondo joe]

75. Ah yes, that's what I meant: all gay men look like males. n/t

[William769]

76. Sorry we had you number several posts ago.

[mondo joe]

79. Funny, I think your "some" = "all" fallacies pegged you right off too. :-)

[Umbram]

88. Not to mention the equivocation

On the word 'a'...which in general manner of use suggest
a SPECIFIC example or item.

A rock - 1 damn rock.

Instead, for no good reason, he's using it to describe "rockness".

Give me an example of a rock.

THIS ROCK.

That describes rockness to you?

Ermm...no.

[Umbram]

56. Nice logic.

You request an example of A.
Someone gives you an example of A,
and you accuse them of suggesting
that ALL A's are the example.

Let's put your logic to work.

Q: Give me an example of a Bird.
A: Chicken.
Q: So, you are saying all birds are chickens?

Yea...nice work.

[William769]

57. Stereotyping is stereotyping, call it what you want.

[mondo joe]

61. Who is stereotyping? Honey, you're the one who referred to 4 different men

as looking "like that".

If any one is stereotyping it's you.

[uppityperson]

66. I'm confused. Didn't you post those 4 pictures in response to

"So what does an obvious one look like?"

[William769]

69. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

So he is trying to change the subject. Didn't work though.

[mondo joe]

73. No rock, no hard place, no change, I posted images of 4 men that you described

as having a "look". What did you mean by that?

[William769]

74. Why did you pick those four men?

[mondo joe]

78. Because I think they -- among many manny other men -- strike me as

gay.

I was unaware that they had one look, though you seemed to.

[William769]

80. I'm glad I 'm wearing my boots.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

82. isn't the 1 look you refer to the same as you saying "strike me as gay"?

[mondo joe]

85. I don't know why you think it's one look.

Or even just a look.

[uppityperson]

90. Then what do you mean by this statement? Trying to understand.

"Because I think they -- among many manny other men -- strike me as

gay."

How do they strike you as gay?

[mondo joe]

98. Their appearance, their demeanor, their style of dress, their voices,

etc etc etc.

But they're all different. Aren't they?

[uppityperson]

105. but they are all "gay" looking, right? This is what you are saying.

even though they have difference, they still look "gay" to you. And you don't see this as stereotyping?

[mondo joe]

107. No, I don't. There are plenty of ways to look gay.

I - and other gay people - have been identifying each other for generations.

You can deny that if you like, but it doesn't make much sense.

[uppityperson]

111. so judging someone on their look is not stereotyping?

You seem to be saying there are lots of ways for people to look. And a person who is gay might not fit a certain look. But someone who looks a certain way says "gay" to you.

To me, judging someone on their looks is stereotyping, even if you agree that all people in a catergory don't necessarily look the same.

[mondo joe]

113. You mean you can't discern anything based on appearance?

Wow - that's pretty amazing.

[Umbram]

115. No kidding

I hope the poster never runs over a person with dark glasses, a cane, and a dog, not wanting to take the chance of stereotyping them as blind.

[William769]

120. I don't know where you hail from.

But my driving manual tell me what to look for in a blind person. Apparently, the book on bigotry tells a person how to spot a Gay person.

[mondo joe]

122. You driving manual tells you what to look for in a blind person?

How precisely do they describe the blind?

[uppityperson]

124. guide dog and/or cane (especially a long red one with white tip)

[mondo joe]

128. You needed a DRIVING MANUAL to tell you that?

:rofl:

[Umbram]

130. Bah

This black furry thing is making a "meow" noise at me...
where is my animal manual?

I don't want to insult it by stereotyping it as a cat.

[uppityperson]

134. no, just responding politely to your question...

"How precisely do they describe the blind?"

[mondo joe]

138. What state driver manual includes that, anyway?

[Umbram]

127. Amazing.

So, rather than just using real world observations, you look up everything you see in manuals to determine what they are.

Must make life difficult.

[uppityperson]

132. do you have a problem with this poster, or are you just being

confrontive acting?

[William769]

136. He's just showing his true colors.

I had him pegged awhile ago. I have dealt with his kind for a long time, gives me a good laugh.

[mondo joe]

140. "His kind"? Stereotyping.

Tch tch.

[uppityperson]

143. for the next major question: is stereotyping always bad.

[Umbram]

146. I've always hoped to not have "a kind" :(

[Umbram]

142. What true colors?

You are stereotyping someone's inner nature based on their posts?

[uppityperson]

119. that's not what I said. I said it is stereotyping.

we all do it. Good thing is to figure out how you do it and how to get past it since it does limit you. Me, MrUP and UPjr have all been mistaken for gay due to dress and actions. Oh well. We are people.

[mondo joe]

121. So you've been mistaken for gay. So what? No one said looking gay

is proof someone is gay, nor is looking straight proof of that either.

But that doesn't mean you can't ever tell.

[uppityperson]

123. No, but I have had people I work with look down upon me for it.

Mr.UP has been not invited to hang out with some of the guys because they were afraid he was gay. There can be repercussions to looking "gay".

[mondo joe]

125. There can be repercussions to looking gay. What does that have to do with

whether it exists or not?

If gay men have spent lifetimes pretty accurately identifying each other, does it not stand to reason that there is a look?

[uppityperson]

129. I don't know. I always thought it would be easier to do what dogs do

walk up, sniff crotch. Perhaps grab each other. Or just ask.

[mondo joe]

133. You thought that would be easier? Give it a try and let me know how it

works out for you.

[uppityperson]

139. I'll get back to you on that.

:rofl:

[mondo joe]

144. You should. You did say you always thought it would be easier.

Doesn't indicate a very thoughtful disposition, I'm afraid.

[uppityperson]

147. maybe I'll skip the sniff and grab and go straight to ask

be nice to have it less complicated.

[mondo joe]

151. Again, not a very thoughtful approach.

Clearly you don't give much thought to these matters before reaching a conclusion. If you had, you might consider that for many gay people throughout history identifying as gay - or asking someone else if they were - was an extremely dangerous thing to do.

In much of the world it still is.

But don't let that stop you from explaining to gay men your much easier method.

[fishwax]

131. stereotyping is making judgments based on oversimplified criteria

To say "person A looks gay because he's wearing a pink shirt," or "person B looks gay because he spikes his hair with gel," or "person C looks gay because of the way he crosses his hands" is stereotyping. That doesn't mean that any mention of a person looking gay is stereotyping. Two gay friends, seeing an attractive guy across the room, and wondering amongst themselves if said attractive man is gay are not necessarily engaging in stereotyping.

Most of the time when we hear the comment in public discourse, it probably relies on stereotypes, because it is often intended as vaguely demeaning--a result of our society's homophobia. But I think what Mondo Joe is arguing is that there are a number of people who might give the impression that they are gay, based not on any single factor but on a number of factors, and to recognize or to draw a conclusion based on such a conflux of factors is not inherently stereotyping.

I don't think what MJ said could be honestly or logically construed to mean that there is a "gay look" that is definable and universally applicable.

[Umbram]

150. Inconsistent?

You say that two gay men wondering if a third man is gay isn't stereotyping.

Gay man 1: Do you think man 3 is gay?
Gay man 2: Yes, i think he is.

You say that to suggest "person A looks gay because he's wearing a pink shirt" is stereotyping.

So, if man 2 follows up with "he is wearing a pink shirt..."
Is man 2 stereotyping?

Or are you saying that CLASSIFICATION is only stereotyping if it is done with a negative connotation?

[fishwax]

154. Not inconsistent at all

I said that stereotyping is making a judgment based on (over)simplified critieria. So, yes, saying person A loogs gay because he's wearing a pink shirt is stereotyping. So if man 2 were to say he's wearing a pink shirt, therefore he must be gay, that would be engaging a stereotype. (I'm not sure if this is where you're implying I'm inconsistent, but I said that their discussion of whether or not person A is gay is not necessarily stereotyping, not that it couldn't be or is absolutely not stereotyping.)

Or are you saying that CLASSIFICATION is only stereotyping if it is done with a negative connotation?

Nope, not really. Stereotyping, like classification, can be done with either a positive or negative connotation.

BTW, welcmome to DU. I enjoyed your defense of logic in post 56 :) :hi:

[Umbram]

158. I agree with you, fishwax.

What you are saying works for me entirely.

And thanks - I've been around since 2003, but I read the news more than post.

[mondo joe]

70. And I offered a variety of men.

So I don't know why anyone thinks it refers to one sterotype.

Do you?

[uppityperson]

81. because you gave them in response to

"So what does an obvious one look like?" Why did you post these pictures in response to that question? Seriously. Not sniping since I think your point is being missed, but why did you post these in response to that question?

[mondo joe]

83. I posted those images because they are men who struck me as rather

obviously gay.

I thought that was plain enough.

[William769]

87. Thats the point of the whole thread!

stereotyping!

, you finally get it.

[mondo joe]

92. What stereotype are you pointing to? I don't see one.

I don't see those men - or the other men who strike me as gay - as fitting a stereotype.

[William769]

99. Read your posts and you will see it.

[mondo joe]

103. You're wrong again. I read my posts and don't see a stereotype there.

If it's there you should be able to point it out. Please do so, or stop lying.

[William769]

106. Here you go.

"I posted those images because they are men who struck me as rather
obviously gay."

Thats your quote. Thats stereotyping. Calling me a liar will do you no good.

[mondo joe]

109. But I have no stereotype - there are lots of very different men who strike

me as gay. There is no stereotype.

The fact is that gay men have been identifying each other for a hell of a long time. You can deny it if you like, but it's true.

[uppityperson]

96. and why do they strike you as rather obviously gay?

[Umbram]

68. Careful.

Stereotyping stereotypers can cause them to stereotype you and it'll get us into an infinite loop. Eventually we'll need to recursively work back through it all with a long series of apologies.

[Umbram]

62. Lack of logic is lack of logic.

I'll call it a fallacy.

[uppityperson]

60. I think is saying "obvious" ones look like this.

stereotypical ones that is. Indeed. Right. Yup. There they are. :eyes:

[karlrschneider]

72. Go to a gay bar some night. Take notes.

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

149. That is a small subtype, gays who go to gay bars.

You couldn't possibly rely on that as a sample.

[arewenotdemo]

101. For 23 years and no clues?

just curious

[David__77]

45. "gayface" is a well-documented fact.

As a gay man, I see it all the time. Someone says "fabulous," and the facial muscles are irreversibly affected, and sharp, flitty motions ensue. I mean this only partially in jest. I have often tried to understand why gay men - even "closet cases" - are usually quite obvious, certainly to the astute observer.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

52. LOL

My gay friends fall on the floor laughing when I do my stereotypical gay guy impression. Complete with "FABULOUS!!!". I'm quite proud of that fact.

[arewenotdemo]

116. question about "gayface"

A (gay) poster in another thread and I both think that Haggard is pretty obvious in this video.

To me the way he moves and positions his lips "seems gay". Do you agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0

[David__77]

157. gayface galore!

i was skeptical at first - but there's a section near the 2 minute mark where he's off the charts, what with the lisping and gesticulating.

[jefferson_dem]

48. Like 'obsenity" - can't define it but you know it when you see it

n/t

[Umbram]

51. What does "looks hot" mean?

Does it mean it appears to be

of a high temperature?
of a spicy nature?
of an erotic nature?
pleasing?
stolen?

Or, perhaps it is a derogatory expression used by Eskimos?

If it's the last suggestion, as a person who runs a naturally high
temperature I could be insulted. My large sense of self-worth however
would insulate me from the biting cold of the remark.

[Rex]

59. I've always heard it used as an insult.

High school students say it with alarming ease.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

65. True......

...but remember, that's high school. In high school, accusing someone of masterbation is an insult too, where as in college, it's openly discussed.

[William769]

84. Shooting someone in High school is a crime.

But not in college?

[mondo joe]

89. The offense against logic continues.

How have you translated words and their intent into shooting?

[William769]

94. The point was made that things are different from high scholl to college.

Not all things are different.

[mondo joe]

102. Again with not understanding "some" or "one" vs "all".

Hard to know if it's intentional on your part or not.

[Umbram]

97. I've never seen anything like this.

Emotion to keyboard, no processing in between.

[William769]

100. Ditto.

[Umbram]

110. Ok, William has taught me my new lesson.

Do not apply any labels.

Let's see how well it works.

I'm sitting on a brown couch.

I'm = OK.
sitting - stereotyping a form of body positioning.
on - stereotyping a spacial relationship
a = OK
brown - stereotyping a much more complicated hue
couch - stereotyping a device for sitting upon.

Bah. I'll have to practice.

[mondo joe]

114. What can you expect from people who say "ditto"?

[CarbonDate]

191. "I know you are, but what am I?"

This is getting silly.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

104. Shooting.......heh

Curious choice of an analogy given mine. Cute.

[Rex]

108. Well, I would make my students explain exactly what they meant

when they said things like that. After a few years, I came to the conclusion it is either a social phenomenon (which is very very bad IMO) or just not meant with the intent of an adult.

FWIW, they called each other horrible things and then would laugh about it with each other 5 minutes later.

[Quixote1818]

77. I use the term sometimes. I usually say that when I think something looks

stupid. :shrug:

[uppityperson]

86. why? Why when something looks stupid?

"Gay" used to = festive or happy. Why stupid?

[Kerrytravelers]

91. Be glad you're not in my classroom. That would get you detention!

Seriously. That probably isn't the best thing to be saying/thinking.

[bicentennial_baby]

95. wow...ouch

work on that....'cause that ain't right...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

126. It's offensive. Stop it. I hope you're 12. And that you'll stop now that you've been corrected.

[Bluebear]

145. Well it is a horrible thing to say, knock it off. nt

[Zen]

93. It means you look too happy

So you must be gay ;)

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

148. Have a nice night.

:hi:

[torrentprime]

117. Wow

Thoughts here:

* Yes, gay-face exists. Not in everyone, but I know it when I see it. Many people do.
* Gaydar exists, no questions. Some are better than others; in my experience those who claim to be 100% right at sniffing out gay man include those they WISH were gay, but I digress.
* Of course you can tell when someone looks gay. Not IS gay, but looks gay, because all that means is that someone fits into a certain current pattern of clothes, or gestures, or femininity, or other things typically associated with gay men in this day and age. Because more and more gay men have the courage to be who they are with no apologies, flamboyant is becoming more the norm these days. (Just watch Queer Eye for 3.1 seconds and you'll pick this up). Does it mean all who act like this are gay? No. But there's nothing wrong with thinking it.
* Does thinking that someone look gay mean you have "pre-judged" them? No, it means your brain looked, saw a pattern it thought it recognized, and filed it away. The above examples are good: if you see a woman walking down the street in a burqua, or in Quaker clothing, don't you "assume" they belong to a certain group? Evil? No. What matters is what you do with it.
* If you walk up to the man that you think "looks gay" and ask them if they have a boyfriend, THEN you've crossed the line. You have gone from pattern recognition to assuming that your first thought is right. Then, you might want to see if your preconceptions are running away with you and changing from "looks like" to "the world is the way I assume it is."

[omega minimo]

118. Happy expressions after we take back the House and Senate

:bounce: :bounce:

[Umbram]

152. True

I will look quite gay if that happens.

[MaraJade]

153. Same as the "acts black" statement. ..

It is, plain and simple, a bigoted statement.

My daughter is bi-racial; my husband is a white Canadian (naturalized US citizen) man of Belgian descent.
I am of African-Irish descent. Depending on the season (the amount of sun she's gotten), my child either
looks white or hispanic.

So what? What does it matter what she looks like? She is simply HUMAN, like the rest of us.

Just how do gay people look?

They look like the rest of us.

"Looks gay" is a stupid thing for anyone to say.

[torrentprime]

168. What's funny

Is that you gave away your own argument in your post:
You said that your child "either looks white or hispanic"
What do you mean, "looks"? Are you stereotyping people? Don't white and Hispanics come in many many different shades? Aren't you stereotyping what all whites and Hispanics look like? Isn't your child just human?

Please.

"Looks gay" is a verbal shorthand that could come out of the mouth of a bigoted homophobe, a clueless-to-the-context run-of-the-mill straight man, or a gay man or woman trying to guess if someone else is gay or not. What it means, in the mind of the speaker, is what truly matters, and can't be determined by one phrase.

And to mention your first sweeping, judgemental generalization:"It is, plain and simple, a bigoted statement. " So are you saying that the millions of gay men who use this phrase all the time, when discussing whether another man is gay or not, are bigoted? Are they all self-hating?
I know a crowd of gay guys who, when they see somebody walking by who "looks gay," they murmur "toot-toot" as a sign to each other that they spotted a fellow gay man. It's just what people say. Calm down.

[Cygnusx2112]

155. Wonder how many people of the anti "looks gay" camp

(i.e. the OP et al) in this thread have no problem stereotyping
a Repub in their travels here on DU.

:shrug:

[LeftCoast]

156. Are you worried we're going to say you look like a republican?

?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

172. ...

:spray:

[Duncan Grant]

161. Gays are welcome here, Republicans are not. Or so we say...

The way I see it, the OP is trying to raise awareness of the contempt that some DUers choose to use when vilifying Bush, Mehlman, Rush, Coulter, etc.. In other words, let's express our loathing of Republicans by insinuating they're gay or at least look gay, not to mention {{{horrors}}} transsexual (Coulter).

And some even ask us 'uppity' gays not to be so sensitive. :eyes:

The lack of empathy here at DU is astounding.

[Umbram]

165. As long as you are equally annoyed...

when other negative adjectives are applied, eg. bald, fat, ugly, etc.

[Duncan Grant]

169. When those adjectives are used contemptuously, yes - I'd be equally annoyed.

And when people who may be bald and/or fat say, "That's enough. Stop it." it would be a gracious move to ally with them -- and empathize.

[Bluebear]

162. Are you concerned and troubled? nt

[Binka]

171. LOL n/t

[survivor999]

159. Does this guy "look gay"?

Dunno, I tend to say "yes". I must be weird.

[Bluebear]

163. What's your point?

[FlaGranny]

160. What a silly thread.

LOL. I hardly know what to say. I have some friends and acqaintances that are gay. Funny thing is, not one of them has ever told me he or she is gay. I wonder how I know? Hmmmmm.

My husband and I walked into a bar one day years ago. Somehow after being there only a couple of minutes, we realized we were in a gay bar. No one told us, though. I wonder how we knew? Hmmmmm.

[Bluebear]

164. Oh honestly. You're a real Sherlock Holmes

What was your clue you were in a gay bar? Was it because there were all men, maybe dancing with each other? "Hmmmmmm."

[Guaranteed]

170. Is that "gay"? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

174. That wasn't nice...

And there are women and strg8 people at gay bars , especially if there are drag shows...

[Bluebear]

175. Claiming that you can "tell" any gay is nice?

Add the snarky hmmmmmmmms and *I'm* not being nice?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

176. I Don't Know... Maybe You Should Ask Tally Granny To Elaborate...

eom

[Bluebear]

177. Well this isn't TallahasseeGranny, to begin with.

And I maintain the "hmmmmms" and the post in general are offensive. Sorry you don't think I'm nice, I am offended by the post.

[phrenzy]

178. Moral Superiority Runs Rampant On DU

Oh my god. All these little games people are playing to "nail" somebody as a "bigot" because they have fucking common sense. Jesus Christ. Are these the same people who claimed they never masturbated in school, or maybe they "don't see color" like Stephen Colbert?

If I said "Looks like a hippie" what would you think?

Would I be stereotyping? Do ALL hippies look the same? Are there traits that are generally understood as most commonly belonging to hippies? Is it HATEFUL?

So, suddenly when that applies to *another* class of people it makes one 'bigoted'? Umm. No.

So, let's see if I say "Liberace looks like he is gay" - Does that mean I am saying "ALL gay people look like Liberace?"

Man. The circles some DUers dance around to maintain their liberal purity is amazing. It's like we check human nature at the door for being Liberal?

How many of you can deny having a preconceived notion of what the following types "look" like:

Computer Geek
Prostitute
Jock
Emo
Goth
Lumberjack
"Good" girl
Gangster

Congratulations. You are a bigot.

[Bluebear]

179. So support of stereotypes is now "fucking common sense"

Congratulations to you too, you take the prize.

[phrenzy]

180. And you take the prize for being in denial of reality and human nature

I also noticed you failed to address or answer any of the points or questions in my post.

Maybe I'll get another clever response along the lines of "Your post speaks for itself..." etc.

[Bluebear]

182. Now that you edited, so will I - - - Your post is horseshit. Good enough?

Adieu.

[phrenzy]

186. Wow, man you really dismantled my arguments point by point.

Way to contribute to the dialogue.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

193. I'm With You Here...

Goth is a "look"

Hippy is a "look"

Lumberjack is a "look"


Gay is NOT a "look"

[Maven]

181. The examples you gave

are all personality archetypes, so of course they'd be associated with a certain aesthetic.

One's sexual orientation is an inborn trait that may be expressed a million different ways. It isn't a "type." In fact, it is the association of homosexuality with a certain "type" that is at the root of anti-gay prejudice--that is, the tendency to prejudge a person based on preconceived notions of personality traits, proclivities, looks, mannerisms, etc.

So the examples you gave are inapposite. Nice try though. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

183. Have fun with this one, I can't see his responses anymore.

[William769]

188. After I left this thread last night half of it disappeared

No great loss though I don't associate with bigots where I live, why should I here.

[Bluebear]

189. Online life is way more pleasant this way nt

[phrenzy]

184. Ah, I see..

So the fact that one thing is a genetic disposition suddenly means that the notation of any aesthetics generally associated with a certain sexuality is off limits, but it is ok for "personality archetypes"?

So, being a computer geek can only be expressed "one way"?

This whole game of semantics is sad. Why can't we debate the merits of the way people TREAT each other instead of accusing people who behave like normal human beings of being 'bigots'

The FACT of the matter is, you KNOW what "looking gay" refers to - as it no doubt conjures up an image in your mind of a 'stereotype'

The question is can you use this term in a way that is short of "hateful" or "bigoted"?

[Maven]

187. "You KNOW what 'looking gay' refers to"

No, I know what you think "looking gay" refers to. Effeminacy. Which is fine--just say you think of gay men as effeminate, as long as we're being "honest" and "realistic." You're right--that is the stereotype. I'm perfectly willing to talk about it, I'm just not willing to help you justify using it.

Yet again, you compare being a computer geek to being a gay man, as though one's sexuality were just another personality type or..."lifestyle choice." And you can't see how condescending that is. Just drop it.

[LeftCoast]

190. What we object to is being pigeon-holed

You've proved the OP's point. By being gay, I am not a 'type' as you put it. Will some gays fall into your stereotypes of what you perceive as that 'type'? Probably. But so will some straight men. Putting people into categories does nothing but impose your stereotypes onto them.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

192. What's your preconceived notion of "straight"? nt

[donheld]

195. Hompphobic statement

Now I have no idea what hompphobic is but really it could include all of the others. Some have had the idea that there is a certain look gays have. Anyone who knows many gays at all know none of us look alike. I guess it's like some used to say "all blacks look alike"

[Moderator]

196. locking....

This is flamebait.