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I feel sorry for people like Haggard. I really do.

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:00 PM
Original message
I feel sorry for people like Haggard. I really do.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:04 PM by izzybeans
I'll tell you why. I'm a straight man. I've grown up in an environment where it would have been no issue if I were attracted to men. It was not an issue in my life, and I never realized it was so divisive until I left my family behind and moved on (I found this out the same moment that i was a liberal and that there was such a thing as a republican). In that regard I was very, very naive. No longer naive, when I think of a person who has been raised and surrounded by a culture that utterly represses their sexuality I feel sympathy. I've never felt that, for I am a straight male. No one calls me a slut, a whore, or a fag for expressing myself within a consenting relationship. Imagine a person who has lived and actually performed the role of a leader of a sexually oppressive cult whose attractions ran so counter to his ideological apparatus that he could only express himself in often pathological and always hidden ways. He has done damage to many people with his actions and words. One of those people is himself.

The sociologist Erving Goffman wrote about the life of individuals (especially the stigmatized) within a "total institution" (normally limited to places like prisons, boarding schools, colleges, state hospitals, the military, etc.). These institutions are organized in ways that suppress the identity of their members, realigning their sense of self along institutionally defined lines. A man or women turns into a soldier classified into a system of ranks, a patient classified into a system of diagnoses, a prisoner classified within the legal code, or a student who becomes a number classified into a tiered system of classes, etc. In each instance these classifications cause a suppression of a reality felt by the individual, some may feel they are oppressed and have lost their true identities, especially among the ranks of prisoners, patients, and soldiers.

And yet...even within a highly oppressive social institution the human spirits finds away to express itself. Inmates find free places in which they can express themselves in a way uncontrolled by the prison, the hospital, the college, or the military. Goffman used this type of situation as a metaphor that helped explain more common experiences. Our cultural mores resemble a total institution when it comes to sexual behavior. Within fundamentalist culture this is even more true. People act surprised that hateful bigots can be unveiled as sexual hypocrites. But this should come as no surprise to anyone. The self will find its place, because people like Mr. Haggard know exactly who they are and they know the limitations placed on them by their surroundings. He was an inmate in a prison that was not his own making, but he acted the part that recreated the sort of oppressive drama that imprisoned him and others in something we call "the closet".

And so I feel sorry for folks like Haggard who have had to suppress their identities behind an institutionalized mask. You can see it in his face in all the youtube videos. He alternates between hysterical anger and confidence. He is obviously not in a place that allows him to be at peace. It is unfortunate that someone who participates in such an oppressive culture, even as its leader, can only find that free place with an under-aged prostitute. If he were allowed to be open, if he were given a chance to actually embrace his own desires (and part of that would be giving himself a chance), perhaps he could have developed a healthy relationship with somebody who could love him back. I am sorry that the only avenue of freedom he had left was under-age prostitutes.

Instead, he's a candidate for suicide watch and, depending on the state, a pedophile to boot.

Yeah, I had my laughs at this man. But there are many people out there that are in the same position as he, too afraid to pursue what they want because they are being crushed by the weight of their oppressive environment, and even worse, their own cognitive contents (e.g. belief system/ideologies). I am sort of ashamed that I've never had to feel the pressure of living a double consciousness (life inside and outside the closet), but I'm doing my best to understand.

I'm not sure what will provide a powerful enough force to change the culture so that people are never subjected to the total institution of a heterosexually dominated culture, but I am fairly certain that once the laughing is over that ridicule is not the answer.

IMHO.

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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. What a load of crap. The closet has a door knob.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:04 PM by DURHAM D
I, for one, took that option.

I guess my other option was to preach hate-mongering.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sure it does.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:07 PM by izzybeans
You obviously misread what I'm saying. Nothing I said excuses any of it.

I'm responding the homophobic shit parading around every time this pops up. And it always does.


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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Sorry but you said you feel sorry for Haggard and people
like him. I don't.

Your concern is misplaced - think of all of the people that have been victimized by his 30 million followers because they listening to his ravings. His preachings also include condemnation of Catholics, Jews, Muslims, women and others I can't even remember. Do you know much about him?
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I know enough about him. I don't want to forgive him for any of the
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:19 PM by izzybeans
hateful shit he spews. He was not the main character in my story because I was mostly speaking about the power of institutions, and their possession of certain individuals, especially those in separatist sects. If there are millions of people in his church then there is a certain % of them having to cope with exactly what I've posted in my op. My op was more concerned with general patterns than anyone particular person, even though I used him as the primary example.

If sorry is the wrong word I apologize. I am also amused. But I've spent my humor on this subject.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
3.  Ah, the high road.
Thanks for the reminder, Izzybeans.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'd feel sorry for him
had he not spent his life perverting Christianity and preaching hate.

That's the difference.



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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I too feel that way. perhaps I'm going to far in the other direction
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:09 PM by izzybeans
since I keep reading "gay" jokes that are clearly not made in good fun.

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I don't find the jokes particularly funny
because it's about the hypocrisy and the damage he's been doing to people, most of them kids, for too many years.

I hate outing people who want to stay in the closet for whatever reason. However, these right wingers who spend their lives hurting us all are fair game.

They're not all gay, either. Some of them abuse women, some sexually abuse children, others have addictions of various types. They are all fair game.

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I was just looking for an explanation of the hypocrisy itself in my post.
The hypocrisy is plain for all, even for his parishioners, who will undoubtedly see him as fair game as well.

The issues of patriarchy within the rightwing are also relevant. I was stepping back from the game to try to find its ground rules.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's a good point
sort of like wondering "What if I had been around when Hitler ran Germany? Would I have joined the Nazi Party? Would I have fought?"

But at the end of the day, he is responsible for his actions. He leads a public life and tries to influence others. That puts him in a position to be held to a higher standard. He is different than someone leading a quiet life of desperation.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. True he is different. perhaps it is better to think about all the young
people in his church who probably grew up just like him.

I'm sure I've overshot my mark with this thread.
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William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. I can empathize.
I was in a similar situation once. I at one time i thought i was gay or bi when i was young. This was due to abuse by a pedophile when i was 6-7. For some twisted reason i felt i was gay because of what he did to me. I felt shame, and hated myself for a long time. I also was very hard on gays, yes i was a gay basher because of my own fears.

I grew up in the red south where if you are gay, your a freak, a loser, going to hell etc. I fought with it, i cried over it, i whipped ass and was abusive over it. Only later after i finally realized being gay was ok, and found out for myself i was not truly gay did the healing begin.

Today i am much better, but only much self imposed torture. Even to this day i get nervous around gay people, but i am trying. Also thinking i may have been gay at one time i have some insight on how they feel, and the persecution they suffer. Thats why today, even though i'm not gay, and yes they make me nervous i am there for them in every way because i finally understand.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. I am glad that you were able to work through that experience.
It probably took a lot of strength to share that.

Thanks!
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William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No problem.
Talking about it and sharing are part of the healing.

You are very much welcome.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe the most insightful post I've ever read here.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:16 PM by madmusic
The issue goes far beyond gay/straight as your enlightened mention of Goffman clearly demonstrates.

Thanks for the post and K&R.

EDIT: though most will probably want to wait until after the election to allow any compassion. And will the wingnuts allow it? It is near impossible to feel empathy and compassion when constantly on the defensive, when constantly under attack. I'm guessing though that the religious right will realize how far from their religion they traveled and may call out for compassion themselves. It is, after all, the human (and Godly) thing to do.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. That's just it. I suppose my naivety is getting me again because I've never
been made to feel defensive about my sexuality (for the reasons I mentioned above).

Perhaps DU is the wrong place for my post.

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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. No, just about 1 week early.
Revenge is sweet and most are taking every opportunity to gloat they can. Keep in mind how dirty the word "liberal" is and that's what we're up against. After the election is when we will start asking where we want the party to go. In the arrogant direction the wingnuts went, or back to our roots.

It will be more complicated though because the wingnuts will not stop attacking after they lose.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. very true.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 11:05 PM by izzybeans
They have built their political culture on the back of smear campaigns. I do worry to what extent the left will get sucked into the personal-attack rabbit hole where nobody can do anything but point and laugh at each other, or worse.

I am skeptical of critiques of that nature. This particular episode is one of those gray areas, because the personal is political given what is being stigmatized.

This campaign season has been surreal in that regard, especially when the national parties release their local commercials. Nothing but finger pointing, not a whole lot of substance. At the moment, its a necessity. I hope it doesn't become the norm. Talks about voting records and campaign contributions are one thing, but these ads devolve into nothing but name calling; especially the RNC's.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Nope not sorry for him at all.
The pity party pooped out whilst he was busy condemning homosexuals to eternal damnation or whatever idiocy he believes in, and advocating writing gays out of the constitution. No pity for the hypocritical hate mongerers caught with their trousers down.

None at all.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Interesting phenomenon this self-hating rightwinger.
Edited on Thu Nov-02-06 10:28 PM by izzybeans
The subject of my post is an explanation of this phenomenon. The spirit of it (represented in the subject line) was chosen in direct opposition to the homophobic shit i keep reading on this subject. Sorry is perhaps the wrong word, but it is fairly irrelevant to the substance of my post.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. well i don't
he took the path of crushing and stepping on the face of others like himself

he didn't take the path of, say, working as a restaurant manager or in a little theater where his sexuality could be put in the open

he took the path of being mr preacher i'm better than you and why?

for money -- being mr. big time preachy weachy got him more $$$$ than getting a real job and being who he was

if you are in the closet, fine, but don't use your place in the closet to put your boot on another man's face

every such hypocrite should be exposed and held up to contempt without guilt or pity

i'm tired of feeling sorry for human trash

the haggards of the world don't have pity or mercy for us

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. All you say is true.
I can't argue with that.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-02-06 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. I have NO pity for that grifting cocksucker
not a fucking bit
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