I'm a Gay Pentecostal - Not a Joke; Turning Purple Pentecostals Blue This Year

[CorpGovActivist]

As some of you who have read my journal and threads here know, I grew up in West Virginia - right in the heart of Pentecostal country.

I would welcome a civil discussion of how Dems might:

1. Respond in a vote-capturing way to the "Haggard thing";

2. Make permanent inroads in those areas of the country.

After all, there are a few votes to be had:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal#Statistics

- Dave

[Skinner]

1. I don't think this Haggard thing will impact the election at all.

Nor do I think there is anything we could do to use it.

If he were an elected official in the GOP, it would be a slam dunk. But I think the vast majority of Americans don't see any connection whatsoever between this story and politics.

Now, there is plenty that we could do in order to make inroads with religious voters. But I don't think this particular event will help us do any of them.

[CorpGovActivist]

4. There's Where Having an Insider's Understanding...

... of how this will be used - this Sunday - from the Pentecostal pulpits to energize the evangelical base, leads me to take a view that is 180 degrees opposite.

- Dave

[Hamlette]

11. how will it be used to energize the evangelical base?

I'm lost. Would it be "we've got to stick together, they are trying to destroy us"?

[CorpGovActivist]

15. The Sunday Sermons (PLURAL)

Pentecostals do church twice on Sunday.

- Dave

[Hamlette]

76. yea, I get that, but what will they say in the sermon that will make them

want to vote for these crooks?

[CorpGovActivist]

79. What They Will Preach from the Pulpit This Sunday...

1. There will be a strong reminder that there truly *is* evil in this world, and that sometimes, things like this happen as a temporal attempt by the Devil to discourage and disillusion the faithful. "The Devil WANTS you to be discouraged. The Devil WANTS you to stay home this Tuesday. The Devil WANTS you to throw up your hands and say, 'What's the use?' Can I get an 'Amen'?"

(That is NOT an exaggeration.)

2. There will be a strong appeal to the faith of the Founders, as an example of how churchgoers today should take inspiration from their example. "When the forces of darkness gathered about the Founding Fathers (the Founding Mothers are rarely mentioned), they were sorely tried. They were weighed in the balance. And - hallelujah! - they persevered!"

(Some of the best strains of Celtic oratory can be found in any given Pentecostal pulpit, on any given Sunday.)

3. "Brothers and sisters, let us pray: Heavenly Father, we live in troubled times. We live in confusing times. But - praise Jesus! - we know that you are with us. We know that when there is only one set of footprints on that beach, that you are carrying us. Carry us, now, Oh Lord! Carry us, and sustain us, in this all-important week."

(And so forth. Notice how not a single mention of a voting booth, ballot box, polling place, candidate, etc. gets mentioned. It's raw rhetoric and oratory at its finest.)

That's what they'll preach - and that congregation will walk out, full of fire in the belly, ready to fight Hell on earth, right there at their local polling place.

- Dave

[Armstead]

5. May not be a direct major effect but.....

It's "another brick in the wall" of betrayals of the evengelicals by the republican right and the leaders of the evangelical movement.

That could have a straw and camel's back effect among some of those voters on Tuesday.

[CorpGovActivist]

10. When the GOP Has Its Pick and Choice...

... of Democrat-spawned ridicule about snake handling, speaking in tongues (with sexual innuendo about what Haggard may have been doing with his tongue), etc. - those Pentecostals who may have been leaning toward voting Dem this year may cast a spiteful (or renewed, resolute) vote for the GOP in tight races instead.

- Dave

[kiahzero]

30. Perhaps I'm insufficiently liberal

Poisonous snake handling not only deserves mockery, its practitioners deserve jail time.

[CorpGovActivist]

33. My Own Denomination...

... was, as I have joked, "about a half-step above the snake handlers," and I always laugh in A River Runs Through It at the line, "Methodists are Baptists who can read" - because it captures, so elegantly, the pecking order within the Protestant denominations.

- Dave

[elocs]

42. That is a caricature and a stereotype.

As an ex-Pentecostal (United Pentecostal Church) I can factually state that there are millions, and the vast majority of Pentecostals have never handled snakes. The best that Democrats can hope from Pentecostals is that they stay home and do not vote for Republicans because as a whole they will not vote for Democrats.

[CorpGovActivist]

48. The Best That Dems Can "Hope" for, Versus the Best That Dems Can "Work" for...

... are two very different things, though.

; )

- Dave

[elocs]

101. You know as well as I do that there are groups of people

that Democrats would have a much greater return on their time and effort to convince to vote Democratic than Pentecostals, or even Evangelicals for that matter. Democrats do not have unlimited resources, time and money to target Pentecostals. Ordinarily it is difficult to get a Republican to switch to vote Democratic. With Pentecostals there is a huge religious barrier to cover come. How do you compete with God and what they see as the "truth"? There are so many aspects and beliefs of the Democratic Party that are antithetical to Pentecostals and Evangelicals that realistically the best we could hope for is that they do not vote at all, meaning less votes for Republicans.

[CorpGovActivist]

102. I Respectfully Disagree

1. Run Democratic candidates in those districts who grasp the cultural/religious issues, and who can make an effective case that being a "good" evangelical and a Democratic voter is FAR from being mutually exclusive.

2. Reap the votes.

- Dave

[elocs]

104. In the Pentecostal churches I have been in

I would see zero people there voting for a Democrat. If you get them to leave the church, maybe, but when you take into consideration their strong religious beliefs it is unlikely. It is about as likely that Pentecostals would accept homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle accepted by God.

[CorpGovActivist]

105. Overlay the Map of Appalachian Pentecostals...

... with (note that the coloring pre-dates red state/blue state, so pay attention to the legends):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_election

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election%2C_2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election%2C_2004

To get even more granular, do an overlay of faint purplish-red counties in states that barely went for Bush.

It wouldn't take much to switch those to faint purplish-blue - for all the Electoral College votes (winner takes all, in most states).

- Dave

[elocs]

108. Are Appalachian Pentecostals representative of those nation wide?

Somehow, I don't think so. The pastor of my UPC Pentecostal church, Brother E, came from West Virginia and I can guarantee that he would never vote for a Democrat and that is how he preached. To vote Democratic, or to support their ideals, was equated with supporting an arm of Satan. It may be your personal mission to witness to Pentecostals to vote Democratic, but as one who has been-there, done-that, I think it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than to get a Pentecostal to vote for a Democrat. Plus, ex-Pentecostals are looked upon those still in the church as being backsliders, so the goal is to get the backslider back into the church and not to listen to their political arguments. Pentecostals are not your average run of the mill voter that can be convinced to vote Democratic.

[CorpGovActivist]

111. Pluralistic, Purple Pentecostals

"Are Appalachian Pentecostals representative of those nation wide?"

That invites over-generalizations of the worst type. I know you didn't mean it that way, so if you'll allow me, let me try to reframe this.

Appalachian Pentecostals do not exist in a vacuum. They are influenced by other aspects of their environment.

For instance, once upon a time, Democrats had one very powerful and influential institution with which to combat the Pentecostal Pulpit Programming - namely, the UMWA union hall.

"Somehow, I don't think so. The pastor of my UPC Pentecostal church, Brother E, came from West Virginia and I can guarantee that he would never vote for a Democrat and that is how he preached."

Look at the Electoral College results for the Appalachian "border states" from 1960 through present. Something was counteracting the influence of evangelical ministers - something that the DNC lost.

"To vote Democratic, or to support their ideals, was equated with supporting an arm of Satan."

My grandparents and parents paid a helluva lot more attention to the UMWA voter guides than they did to the pastors in their respective pulpits, with regard to informing themselves about how to cast their vote. Elsewhere here, I have recounted how my grandfather was aghast to learn that - by voting a straight Democratic ticket - he'd failed to support a candidate he personally knew and liked. The union reminded him in their voting guide that - with one lever - he could vote for the union-recommended slate, so he did it.

"It may be your personal mission to witness to Pentecostals to vote Democratic, but as one who has been-there, done-that, I think it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than to get a Pentecostal to vote for a Democrat."

But the Electoral College maps don't lie. Something was counterbalancing those pulpits. Something the DNC elite has lost. It should be the DNC's mission to retrace their steps, to find what was lost.

Since you raised the eye of a needle story: my pastor once brought in a large knitting needle, with an oversized eye, along with an 8 x 10 picture of a camel. He thought he was being clever, illustrating that, "Brothers and sisters - I cannot even fit this *picture* of a camel through this very large eye!"

My mom went home and - this was pre-Internet, mind you - grabbed her Bible concordances. She went to the library. She did her research. The next Sunday, she handed out a leaflet to others about the true meaning of the "eyes of the needle" - the low-clearance gates in ancient Jerusalem, which were used as a device to allow merchant camels through, but not mounted invaders.

That parable gets abused and misused to teach evangelicals that it is OK - even heavenly - to be poor. It's a great way to keep parishoners uneducated, "simple," and poor (and if any member of the congregation *does* happen to be a bit better off, s/he'd better be prepared to be hit up for every harebrained scheme the pastor has).

"Plus, ex-Pentecostals are looked upon those still in the church as being backsliders, so the goal is to get the backslider back into the church and not to listen to their political arguments. Pentecostals are not your average run of the mill voter that can be convinced to vote Democratic."

Now, put the Pentecostal back in his/her full habitat. What other institutions and influences is the Pentecostal voter exposed to, and where can the DNC regain ground in those?

- Dave

[elocs]

127. We are just going to have to disagree.

People here who can read of 2 people who have experience in Pentecostalism can disagree on the same subject. If you are looking for mass converts to the Democratic Party, then Pentecostalism is not the place they will be found. If you feel it is your calling to mine for votes there, then all power to you. It is a wide open field because I see very, very few here even remotely looking to the Pentecostal or Evangelical churches for votes for Democratic candidates.

[CorpGovActivist]

129. Fastest-Growing Denominations and No DNC Plan?

That's an outrage.

- Dave

[elocs]

136. You have read the many, many posts here at DU as well as I have.

You will see post after post of people who have utter contempt for all Christians no matter what flavor they may be. Good luck in finding disciples here to harvest the myriad of Pentecostals who are longing in their hearts to vote for a Democrat. The Democratic Party has far too many deal breakers for many Pentecostals to convert such as the freedom of a woman to choose or gay rights and I am sure if you try hard you can think of other good examples. You are a dreamer and I am a realist. There is a place and need for both of us, but it is also what separates us.

[CorpGovActivist]

140. I Guess That Makes Me an RFK Adherent

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2576339&mesg_id=2576339

- Dave

P.S. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=some+people+ask+robert+kennedy+see+things+as+they+are+why+not+dream

[kiahzero]

59. It still happens, and I wasn't the one who brought it up. (n/t)

[elocs]

103. Yes it does happen, but it is rare.

It is like holding up the most extreme beliefs of some Democrats as being representative of all Democrats, or that Mormons are polygamists. Pentecostalism is the fastest growing segment of Christianity worldwide and a very, very small percent are snake handlers.

[Me.]

13. I Disagree Somewhat

While he is not an elected official, he has been active in getting measures on the ballot in Colorado, measures which would limit the rights of gays. Aside from the "judge not lest you be judged" aspect, there is the hypocrisy involved. As to the use of it, I think the fact that it is being widely reported is enough, people can draw the conclusions.

*shadow government*

[CorpGovActivist]

17. These Evangelical Scandals Past...

... didn't diminish their faith, or their numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal#Radio_preachers_and_televangelists

Then, as now, the Democratic Party *could* be using this as an opening to speak to these voters.

- Dave

[noonwitch]

21. Because forgiveness is the core principle in christianity

The faithful tend to forgive their fallen leaders. No one is perfect.

[CorpGovActivist]

27. And Then Chortling Outsiders...

... who mock them become the "common enemy" to rally against.

- Dave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. Isn't that a bit like saying...

that the Mark Foley scandal won't have any impact outside of the 16th district of Florida?

[gfnrob]

2. I think

the best way to "capture" votes on this, will be the inevitable decrease in evangelical turn out.

[CorpGovActivist]

6. If You Could Do an Entry Poll and Exit Poll This Sunday...

... at Pentecostal churches, you'd find:

1. Entry polls: demoralized and downtrodden, feeling that things aren't going too well (maybe even considering skipping the vote this year);

2. Exit polls: uplifted and re-energized, reminded that "we are faced with many trials and tribulations," but that we must "work to overcome them," and hellfire bent on showing up at the polls.

- Dave

[gfnrob]

9. Re-energized

Will that filling carry on till Tuesday?

[CorpGovActivist]

19. LOL ... It Should Last Until Wednesday...

... as I've written here before: I have enough church banked up to last me until I'm 48.

1. Sunday morning

2. Sunday evening

3. Wednesday night (so you don't "backslide" between Sundays)

- Dave

[gfnrob]

22. Sorry, foreign to me...

I,m an agnostic who occasionally attends service with The Society Of Friends, Quakers.

[CorpGovActivist]

28. FCNL Has Been Magnificent to Me and Others Working...

... on Halliburton issues.


http://www.fcnl.org/index.htm

; )

I haven't been to a Pentecostal church service since I was 16. That's how I arrived at the 48 years' worth of church figure (16 years x 3 services a week).

- Dave

[Ian David]

50. You underestimate the stupidity and stubbornness of those people

Take note that Rev. Peter Popoff is still doing his faith healing schtick on television, even though James Randi snuck a radio scanner into one of his services decades ago, and exposed him on The Tonight Show as a fraud.

See:

Peter Popoff proved fake on 39-17-Mhz
Peter Popoff, like many faith healers, calls out the names, illnesses, ... When world-famous magician and psychic investigator James Randi and his close ...
http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-39-17Mhz.htm

And:
YouTube - James Randi Debunks Peter Popoff Faith Healer
This is a video response to James Randi Debunks Uri Geller on the Tonight Show ... James Randi Exposes Peter Popoff 05:17. From: lalovision Views: 14180 ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y

They're not smart people.

They are, in every sense of the word, SHEEP.

They desperately need to believe, and desperately need to surrender to authority, and apparently enjoy handing over money to people who scam and abuse them.

Yeah, they WILL leave energized.

BAAAAaaaAAAaAAaa! BaAAaAAAaa!!

[CorpGovActivist]

54. Note the Exclusionary Pronouns (Those People, They)...

... and the dismissive attitude regarding "their" intelligence.

Aesop wrote about The Fox and the Grapes ("those grapes are sour, I didn't want them anyway"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

He could well have been writing about disconnected DNC "message makers," dismissing their inability to connect with "those" voters: "they're stupid voters, we don't want them anyway!"

- Dave

[mmonk]

3. Nothing to really add by democrats.

[CorpGovActivist]

7. Sure There Is...

... this is an opportunity to reach out to these voters - or to shun them.

Ridicule and chortle, and they'll circle the wagons. Show sympathy and empathy, and persuadable Pentecostals will still vote Dem this election.

- Dave

[gfnrob]

12. What could I do??

Really, is there something?

[CorpGovActivist]

14. Sure...

... show empathy, talk about how all humans are flawed, how redemption is available to all, and how that this probably adds an added layer of bewilderment to their choice.

Then remind them that Jesus was a progressive kinda guy, who was concerned with universal healthcare, and women's rights, who never once is quoted in the Bible as having spewed venom at gays or lesbians, who believed that it was important to engage with his critics, and who taught by a daily example.

Make it OK for them to cast a progressive vote. Many so-called "red letter Christians" are emerging from these evangelical groups, pointing out that the "red letters" of Christ's words are a progressive (even downright liberal) message of hope - not a reactionary one.

- Dave

[gfnrob]

16. Good point...

I always thought of Christ as the "original" hippie.:hippie:

[CorpGovActivist]

20. And How Cool Was That Whole Water into Wine ...

... thing?

Wonder what he could turn milkweed into?

; )

- Dave

[radfringe]

35. Wonder what he could turn milkweed into?

Kaluha and cream? yummmmmmm

[theHandpuppet]

34. I've voiced similar thoughts here on DU

Here are some samples from my journal...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/23
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/24
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/22

[CorpGovActivist]

39. Thank You for Sharing Those!

Muchly appreciated!

- Dave

[theHandpuppet]

75. You're very welcome!

It's just a reminder that even here on DU, we have a lot of issues that need to be addressed and some objective self-reflection can only benefit us as individuals and as a party.

[CorpGovActivist]

80. I Think So, Too...

... and I wholeheartedly enjoyed those "staying up till dawn" conversations with new friends in college, comparing notes on our religions' overlaps and divergences.

- Dave

[mmonk]

25. Many are.

Just not in the context of this particular instance.

[mmonk]

32. Here's my example that democrats are reaching out

to religious voters.
http://www.wral.com/news/10018485/detail.html

[CorpGovActivist]

37. A Much Finer Distinction...

... must be made than "reaching out to religious voters," because - since Martin Luther nailed those Theses to the church door - "religious voters" make a much finer distinction amongst themselves (and that's just with respect to Christianity, let alone all the other major world faiths).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal

Seriously: when "schisms" happen over such things as which direction you cross yourself, the DNC can't slop together a one-size-fits all "religious voters outreach," and call it a day.

- Dave

[mmonk]

43. This really didn't start out as a DNC

or party one size fits all attempt. It was something a prominent citizen wanted to start to show Christian values were found in his party and he wanted to make the case and appeal directly especially with the popularity he has among people of many types and persuasions.

[CorpGovActivist]

49. OK, So Where is the DNC Outreach Program, Then?

I think you just made my point.

: )

- Dave

[elocs]

45. Pentecostals are good at circling the wagons.

I am not convinced that any substantial numbers of Pentecostals do vote Democratic. I wonder what the actual percentage of Pentecostals do vote? I can see Pentecostals circling the wagons and looking at the entire process as being of the world and staying away.

[CorpGovActivist]

51. Overlay Voter Turnout Map with Religious Affiliation Map...

... and that might help yield an imprecise "rough order of magnitude" guess.

- Dave

[flamin lib]

8. Ya' know that's a tough one for me.

It seems to me that (pardon while I paint with a broad brush) liberals don't really care what religion people have. It's such a personal thing. It's none of our business. The flip side is that our faith is not anybody else's business.

It's all so unseemly to brandish our religion and try to make advantage from something so deeply personal.

That human beings have flaws goes without saying. That Republicans are better at exploiting them also goes without saying because they simply don't care about the consequences.

They don't care about truth. They don't care about who gets hurt. They don't care, period.

Win at all costs.

I'm not sure I'm willing to become what I so fervently abhor . . .

[CorpGovActivist]

26. Know Your Audience

"It seems to me that (pardon while I paint with a broad brush) liberals don't really care what religion people have. It's such a personal thing. It's none of our business. The flip side is that our faith is not anybody else's business."

For people who organize their weekly calendar around three church services a week, however, *their* religious values are *very* important to them. If the DNC wants their votes, then the DNC needs to know its audience.

"It's all so unseemly to brandish our religion and try to make advantage from something so deeply personal."

Election Day is on the first Tuesday, after the first Monday in November, in part because the first and second generation of Americans understood the need to accomodate people's religious obligations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Day_%28United_States%29

Dems don't have to "brandish" their religion to connect with these voters. There are secular humanistic ways to "speak the same language," and to build a "Secular Humanist to Religious Voter Dictionary".

"They don't care about truth. They don't care about who gets hurt. They don't care, period."

They, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they...

When Pentecostals keep hearing themselves called by the exclusionary pronoun by Democratic talking heads (I realize you meant Republicans, but could as well have been a talking head on NPR talking about Pentecostals as if "they" were Martians), is it any surprise that "they" don't consider themselves included in the "we" big tent?

"I'm not sure I'm willing to become what I so fervently abhor . . ."

Can you find your way clear, though, to finding the evangelical analogs to the secular humanistic goals you espouse, and learning to speak in words that will connect with "them," without surrendering your core values - and without requiring them to abandon theirs?

Find that common ground, and you'll find some Purple Pentecostals voting blue this year.

- Dave

[flamin lib]

36. Oops, I seem to have miscommunicated--"they" refers to

Repulbicans, not the faithful. My bad. Please accept my heartfelt apology if any have read what I wrote instead of what I really meant.

[CorpGovActivist]

40. No, I Got It...

... but it was a perfect example of how the language rings to the ear of a Pentecostal, being talked about in the exclusionary pronoun, "they," rather the inclusionary pronoun, "we".

- Dave

[porphyrian]

18. Everyone is welcome in our tent, as long as they can accept us.

I'm not so sure fundamentalists have tolerance as a strong point.

[CorpGovActivist]

31. Maybe If More Dems Were to Actually Attend a Few...

... services, instead of operating on third-hand information, they'd learn how to connect.

The story of the Good Samaritan is just one example of how tolerance is taught: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_samaritan

There is a tremendous strain of "good programming" - much of it having mirror analogs in secular humanistic terms - that Dems could tap into, if they only knew how.

- Dave

P.S. Some have asked me why I felt compelled to come forward on the Halliburton stuff. The answer, quite simply, is 16 years' worth of Pentecostal Programming (tempered by my parents' critical thinking after each sermon).

[porphyrian]

47. People have had their hands bitten for reaching out before.

This isn't a one-way relationship, and that was basically the point I was making.

[CorpGovActivist]

55. If the DNC Wants "Those People's" Votes...

... then it is incumbent upon the DNC to connect.

"If at first you don't succeeed, try, try again." -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac

- Dave

[porphyrian]

61. Sorry, I don't buy it. This isn't a unilateral process and we're not whores.

If Pentecostals want to play by the rules, they're welcome to join. If they want to dictate the rules, they can form their own party.

[CorpGovActivist]

64. Or, "They" Can Continue ...

... voting Republican.

- Dave

[porphyrian]

66. That's fine. We don't need them, but they're welcome if they're willing to be tolerant.

Otherwise, they can hold their nose and vote against their conscience. It is not our job to appease every special interest for votes. As I said, we're not whores (despite the activities of a number of career politicians).

[CorpGovActivist]

68. That's Cutting off Your Nose...

... to spite your face. It's short-sighted. It's essentially saying, "We're unwilling to re-examine how *we* might re-frame how *we* talk to these voters, so that *they* see that *we* all have some common ground here."

Those grapes were sour anyway, right?

- Dave

[porphyrian]

77. No, it isn't. They aren't part of our face at all yet.

At the moment, they are supporting the enemy, which makes them the enemy. If they would like to defect to our camp, fine. But they don't get to decide how we should behave in our house. They're welcome if they're willing to abide by our rules, otherwise fuck them. That isn't short sighted, that's logical and fair. They wouldn't want me coming to their church and telling them how to hold a sermon.

[CorpGovActivist]

81. Either with Us Or against Us?

"At the moment, they are supporting the enemy, which makes them the enemy."

They're either with you or against you, eh?

"If they would like to defect to our camp, fine."

With no burden on "your camp" to win their hearts and minds, right?

"But they don't get to decide how we should behave in our house."

The issue is: do you want their votes at the ballot box or not?

If so, you don't have to change your core values. But you do have to think about expressing those values in a way that dovetails with "their" values.

"They're welcome if they're willing to abide by our rules, otherwise fuck them. That isn't short sighted, that's logical and fair."

No, it's known as a zero-sum game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_sum_game

"They wouldn't want me coming to their church and telling them how to hold a sermon."

You know how certain denominations grow? They learn how to conduct effective outreach in their communities. They reach out to do "missionary" work in areas that are counter-intuitive for their "usual" membership. Otherwise, it's the same, steady, stagnant attendance number each week.

The Democratic Party "leaders" could learn a thing or two about effective outreach from "those" people.

- Dave

[porphyrian]

88. Oh, give me a fucking break.

"They're either with you or against you, eh?"
Not at all. However, they've been working against everything I believe for the last six years. It is their responsibility to make nice if they want to share my campfire, and that involves earning the trust and respect they lost when they declared me the enemy. I didn't create this relationship, they did. I'm merely acknowledging it. Thanks for implying that I'm the one who's wrong, though.

"With no burden on 'your camp' to win their hearts and minds, right?"
I don't try to be friends with a wasp that stings me. No, we don't owe them one goddamn thing. They chose to be against us, and there's no reason for any of us to assume they'll be any different now simply because they realize they've been lied to and duped by the republican party. But you need to stop ignoring the three times I've already said that, despite this, they are welcome in the Democratic party if they are willing to be tolerant of us. I guess you like to pick and choose whatever suits your argument, ignoring any facts to the contrary.

"No, it's known as a zero-sum game:"
Again, that's not true. We would all benefit from their deciding to be tolerant and joining the Democratic party. However, we are hardly lost without them, and they don't want to play by our rules. If we alienate our own membership simply to pander to the Pentacostal minority, that is a zero-sum game. You're projecting.

"You know how certain denominations grow?"
Yes, it's called proselytizing. Outreach is a euphemism.

[CorpGovActivist]

91. Thanks for Your Insights

... we've clearly got different philosophies about how the DNC could reach out to many evangelical voters, without surrendering one iota of the party's values.

Essentially, the Dems can play "Red Rover" with these voters. Remember that game? If you can snag the other side's players, your team grows, and their team shrinks.

- Dave

[porphyrian]

93. Any time. - n/t

[Finder]

69. The real Republican party doesn't want them either.n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

71. Them, They, Those, Those People, Their Values, Etc.

Do you hear how this language sounds?

If the Founders had taken this attitude - "I'm not going to work with *them*, because *they're* a (fill in the blank with difference)" - I doubt we'd be a sovereign nation today.

"Those" people - "those" voters - share many of "your" values.

- Dave

[Finder]

73. I agree with you there...

but I honestly think the founders were trying to avoid what is happening today(religious tests for office).

[CorpGovActivist]

82. Religious Voters...

... are not monolithic, nor are most of them hardnosed about litmus tests.

If JFK could win over these areas ...

- Dave

[porphyrian]

78. And who's responsible for the division?

Again, there's nothing unilateral about this situation. It takes two to tango.

[CorpGovActivist]

83. We've Reached an Impasse...

... thank you for your insights. Once you've actually attended a church service or two among "those" people, maybe you'll have a slightly different outlook on how to peel off some of those Purple Pentecostal voters.

- Dave

[porphyrian]

89. You have no idea what I have or haven't attended.

You certainly have your mind made up about things before you find out for sure, though. Enjoy your mission.

[Raksha]

114. Yeah, I hear how it sounds, and I LIKE how it sounds!

If THEY share my values, THEY are going to have to prove it me, NOT the other way around! THEY are ones who started the "us vs. them" game. THEY are the ones who have been demonizing liberals for at least the past 20 years in every way they can, and if THEY have been led by the nose by their preachers, well...too damn bad! Because THEY are responsible for their own gullibility.

It would be very difficult for me to exaggerate just how much I hate the Rellgious Right. Every time I think I couldn't possibly despise them any more than I do, something happens to double it. No, I wasn't raised in that religion (in fact I'm not a Christian), but I've had a few bad experiences with them on a personal level, as well as any number of nasty arguments on various interfaith discussion boards, and political boards too. Sorry, but I've been told I'm going to hell because I'm Jewish too damn many times to have any respect or even tolerance for them. And to add insult to injury THEY always add on the disclaimer "I didn't say it...GOD said it!"

Fuck 'em. We don't need them. I don't need them or want them. It's not "Christians" per se that I detest, but the combination of Christian (or "Christianist" + Republican, i.e. the Religious Right. I think they're delusional psychopaths and the only kind of "outreach" I could ever manage is simply to stay away from them. Because if I get close enough, I'm gonna tell them what I really think of them!

[CorpGovActivist]

118. Why You Should Always Wear Clean Underwear When Visiting the Hillel

"If THEY share my values, THEY are going to have to prove it me, NOT the other way around!"

Every time I hear a Democrat spew this tripe, I cringe. KKKarl must be laughing in his sleeve every time he hears it. The Democrats who took KKKarl's bait didn't just nibble - they swallowed it "hook, line, and sinker," as the saying goes.

"THEY are ones who started the 'us vs. them' game."

Ask a Palestinian who "started it," and they'll point to Israel. Ask an Israeli who "started it," and they'll point to the Palestinians. Ask any patient grown-up how to stop this cycle, and they'll tell you that the magic phrase is: "I don't care who started it. I'm ending it."

"THEY are the ones who have been demonizing liberals for at least the past 20 years in every way they can, and if THEY have been led by the nose by their preachers, well...too damn bad! Because THEY are responsible for their own gullibility."

So, your solution is to write "them" off? By the way, from "their" perspective, the assault on "their" core beliefs came from the left.

"It would be very difficult for me to exaggerate just how much I hate the Rellgious Right. Every time I think I couldn't possibly despise them any more than I do, something happens to double it."

Have you considered learning how to channel that anger in productive and constructive ways, or are you eventually going to take to the streets and start hurling rocks?

"No, I wasn't raised in that religion (in fact I'm not a Christian), but I've had a few bad experiences with them on a personal level, as well as any number of nasty arguments on various interfaith discussion boards, and political boards too."

The common factor to all of those discussions? Your approach to the discussion. I'm not picking on you, but maybe if you tried a new approach, you'd get past the initial "thermosphere" of the debate.

"Sorry, but I've been told I'm going to hell because I'm Jewish too damn many times to have any respect or even tolerance for them. And to add insult to injury THEY always add on the disclaimer 'I didn't say it...GOD said it'!"

Talya. Talya was my first Jewish friend. We met frosh year at Harvard. We hit it off right away. Growing up in NYC, most of the Christians she'd encountered were lapsed Catholics. She'd never encountered a "real, live evangelical" before, and I'd never encountered a "real, live Jewish girl" before. We stayed up for hours. Pentecostals - unlike many denominations - teach both the Old Testament (which includes the Torah) and the New. She'd never met a Christian who knew (and loved) the stories of Ruth and Esther. She'd never met a Christian who knew not just the rudiments of the David and Goliath story, but the "rest" of the Davidic story (his multiple falls from grace, his penitence, and his restoration). She'd never met a Christian whose faith taught that it is ***imperative*** that the US maintain its alliance with Israel (The Book of Revelation is taught - hardcore - in Pentecostal churches and tent revivals). She'd never met a Christian before whose faith teaches that the Jewish nation is so favored in God's eyes, that - even after the "rapture" - they'll be given a special chance not afforded to others.

You may recall that Bill Clinton used to talk about how *his* family's evangelical church also taught the "special relationship" with Israel meme.

Soon after Talya and I struck up a friendship, she invited me to the Hillel with her: http://hillel.harvard.edu/pages.asp?catid=94

I was thrilled. That Friday, I scoured my closet for the nicest clothes I brought with me, to show respect. I jumped in the shower early, to make sure I was ready on time. We were on the first floor of Pennypacker (open stairwell layout), and we left our door unlocked for friends to pop in.

As I was toweling off in the common room, Talya popped in. I hastened to get the towel around me, and she said something like, "Oh, good, you're already getting ready. Just making sure."

She turned to walk out, then turned back while standing in the open doorway: "Oh, by the way, be sure to wear a clean pair of underwear." She then pivoted on her heel, and started to walk out.

"WAIT! WAIT! WAIT!" I cried out. She turned back, again, peeking her head in. "Yes?" she asked.

"Not that I didn't plan on doing that anyway, but is there any particular reason why I should be sure to wear clean underwear?" This had me bewildered.

"Oh, that," she replied. "The rabbi will have to make sure you're - you know," nodding down to my towel-covered area. I have never blushed so hard in my life, as I tightened that towel and turned to one side. "It's just so you can go into certain areas."

"Are you sh***ing me?!?"

"Nope. It's no big deal, really." And with that, she was gone.

When we got to the Hillel, I was resigned to the idea that - in order to broaden my cultural horizons (the whole reason I chose Harvard) - I was going to have to be willing to drop trou and have matters inspected. I wondered if I'd have to turn and cough.

She led me downstairs, where some of her friends were already standing around, talking. There was a long table filled with wonderful looking food. She left me standing in a corner, taking it all in. A few minutes of soaking in my surroundings later, I noticed something out of the corner of my eye. The knot of friends Talya had just walked away from were looking at me, and laughing. The next group she approached did the same thing.

I'd been had.

; )

Never did manage to get her back.

"Fuck 'em. We don't need them. I don't need them or want them."

Thankfully, Talya and I managed to find common ground.

"It's not 'Christians' per se that I detest, but the combination of Christian (or 'Christianist' + Republican, i.e. the Religious Right. I think they're delusional psychopaths and the only kind of 'outreach' I could ever manage is simply to stay away from them. Because if I get close enough, I'm gonna tell them what I really think of them!"

That's a slippery slope. It leads to sectarian violence. This country was founded on ecumenical principles, that should give us plenty of examples of how to reach out across faiths, with respect, in the political arena.

Some "liberal" Democrats may need to change their underwear, first though.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

137. You must be older than I thought. You're telling stories. ^_^

Clean underwear, indeed! That's a good story, with a fine point.

Yes, I despair of continuuing sectarian violence, when I hear such dismissal from "liberal" and "peaceloving" Dems. Actually, though, with that much venom, it truly is better for them to stay away until they can come to grips with their own shadow.

Here's another story for ya... appropos of absolutely nothing, but your story reminded me:

A man I know who is a retired seminary professor, who also had fine expertise in Sociology, was often called to churches to mediate disputes because of his combination of talents.

Once he was called by a synogogue which was having all kinds of infighting, and had raised 5 million to build a new synagogue on the other side of town. He agreed to go to several of their meetings and observe, then to give his opinion and suggestions.

At the last meeting, he said he would give 5 points that any mediator would mention. One was that when you have a leader but keep second-guessing them, you waste your energy.

Then he went on to say that for 2 thousand years, Jews had met in groups, and when they disagreed, they would say it in the open, cuss each other out, then go to the local tavern and have a drink together. (KInda like the old congressional way, I guess).

But, he went on, in the U.S. Jews are not the dominant religious group, and not even the Catholics are. The Protestants are the dominant group, and their way of operating has become the norm in the U.S.

When Protestants meet in groups, everything is very calm and polite, with none of the chaos found in some Jewish meetings. However, when they leave the meeting, they meet in little groups in the parking lot, and tear down the other groups.

He went on to tell the people in the Synagogue that they were in the process of building the largest parking lot in the city! :rofl:

He suggested that after he left the meeting, that they all stay for another 30 minutes, air their grievances with each other, and then head off to a tavern together. :)

Seems like deep wisdom to me...

:hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

141. I Love It...

... here's one for you now:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2576339&mesg_id=2576339

(That poem serves double duty.)

; )

- Dave

P.S. I grew up among "porch people," where oral history is still greatly valued.

[mmonk]

52. Many dems do attend.

You have to understand many church leaders and hierarchy are the ones that work to persuade the faithful to vote for republicans and call us "the party of death". You seem to lay all this on us.

[CorpGovActivist]

56. To the Extent That the Dem "Leaders" Want Those Votes...

... it's up to those "leaders" to develop a better message than the church leaders and RNC.

Name the top 5 liberal, secular humanistic core values you hold dear. I'll give you the "secret Pentecostal code words" to translate those values into their programming.

- Dave

[mmonk]

62. Again, it's the dems under attack, not the churches.

Ideologues in high or authoritative positions in the churches aren't going to be open to discussion until maybe a democratic president wins again and has an opportunity to call together church leaders.

[CorpGovActivist]

65. From Where I Sit...

... there are plenty of progressives and liberals who have microphones in front of their faces, who could be laying the groundwork, right now.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

138. Yes, it's the Dems under attack. Just like poor folk are attacked and ignored

by Dems.

Same/same.

The point is, do we want to do some peacemaking, or have a war?

[radfringe]

23. I'm waiting for the

"...in therapy for ______ abuse... please forgive me" stuff to start

ennywhoo - I know what you mean about the before/after stuff. as a teenager I attended a couple of the sunday sermons with a friend of mine who was pentacostal..

at the time I didn't know that much about her church, when she asked me to go along to sunday services, I figured why not, she's a friend. so I was naive and didn't realize her particular version was into recruiting. I was kind of trapped through 2 services and lessons in between. I had no car, and no access to a telephone to call my parents to come rescue me. Had to wait until it was all over before being brought home....

I politely declined other invitations to participate ... not my style..

[CorpGovActivist]

41. LOL ... You Missed out on Church Camp, Then!

; )

- Dave

[radfringe]

44. actually...

and basically a real long story...

in a nutshell - my mother is catholic (non-practicing now) my dad was a non-practicing lutheran (now self-professed atheist).. they had to get married outside of the altar...

when I was grammer school age and old enough for camp, a friend of my mom thought it would be a great idea if my brother and I attend the same catholic day camp as her kids. ( Note: my father's father (lutheran) had taken it upon himself to bring us to LUTHERAN sunday school. church attendance in catholic church was limited to the holidays... )

my mom's friend had some pull with the folks running the camp, she got us in for a 2-week session (daycamp only - not overnight)

there would be a short service each morning, and all of us "non-catholics", i.e. my brother and me, were scooted to a picnic table far away from the services and told to wait there.

[CorpGovActivist]

57. LOL...My Church Camp Stories...

... are too many to tell - and I should probably check with an attorney to make sure all relevant statutes of limitations have run!

; )

- Dave

[Rosemary2205]

24. Here's how to start reaching people

I'm am a member of one of those evangelical type churches too. Haggard has already been a discussion. We also recently had a young man in our church commit suicide. His suicide note said he felt this was the only way to redeem himself in the eyes of God because he was secretly gay. A few of us opened a discussion about how the anti-gay movement affects young people who find themselves attracted to the same sex. The mental illness that can be caused - not just suicide but acting out in destructive ways - as in Haggard. We also had a broader discussion on how best to lovingly encourage people to turn away from destructive behaviors - especially if they are harmful to other people (for instance Haggard cheating on his wife).

Three of us gently pushed the discussion in a productive direction. The crowd knows all three of us are "bleeding heart liberals". I can't say this type of small group discussion will net votes for 06 - but I am thinking more long term.

Thoughtful Christians can understand the impact of anti-gay legislation and can understand that the R's do not have the progressive ideals of Christianity at heart. All it takes is consistently opening the discussion on a non-threatening level and one by one they'll be pulled into our big tent.

IMHO of course.

[CorpGovActivist]

46. How to Get an Open-Minded Evangelical...

... to begin to re-think the whole anti-gay thing:

1. Know the cookie cutter argument that they use. (They'll cite two source: A. Leviticus from the Old Testament, and b. Paul's letters in the New.)

2. Know the counter-arguments, and make them gently: A. Christ Himself never once uttered a single word of condemnation ("Show me in red ink where Christ condemned gays and lesbians."); B. Leviticus contains many laws that fell by the wayside with the New Covenant (e.g., Peter's rooftop vision regarding unclean animals is a good example to cite). If it is no longer an "abomination" to eat shellfish (e.g., that Sunday trip to Red Lobster - blech!), then Christ's New Covenant also removes the other "abominations" found in Leviticus; C. St. Peter (the rock upon which Christ said he would found his Church) cautioned in ***his*** epistles against others reading Paul's letters without a huge grain of salt, citing Paul's lack of firsthand experience with Christ's ministry, and his "imperfect understanding" thereof. Point out that Peter himself cautioned that true believers could be led astray by Paul's lack of understanding. If the New Testament is "Divinely inspired," then we have to accept that Peter had it "straight from God" that Paul had left some stuff in he shouldn't have.

; )

It may not register immediately, but when you throw in other examples, such as:

* The stoning that Christ stopped ("he who is without sin, cast the first stone").

* The "sorts" of people that Christ helped (the mentally ill/"demon possessed", the "harlots," the "publicans," etc.) - this opens up and begs the question: "Don't you think Christ would have rebuked you for using such hateful and hate-filled language with regard to gays and lesbians?"

* Etc. ...

... it may not bear fruit immediately, but that will begin to ricochet around in their noggins a bit.

And you never know which gay youth's life you just may save. I was very fortunate, to have parents who actively "deprogrammed" the anti-gay horsecrap.

- Dave

[Mend]

29. Churches are clubs that anyone can join....although

some will have to hide their true selves. People are often lonely and desire love, acceptance, and inclusion. Churches provide that and probably it is more the group effect than any spirituality that brings people into their tent. I can think of no way to make these religions follow the teachings of Christ and the Constitution of the U.S. which would be to love one another, help the poor, and stay the hell out of politics.

[CorpGovActivist]

58. "and stay the hell out of politics."

Do you support secular humanistic laws on the books that forbid murder?

Thou shalt not kill.

Do you support secular humanistic laws on the books that forbid CEOs stealing from the pensions of their employees?

Thou shalt not steal.

You don't have to subscribe to *all* of the tenets of faith of "those" people, to still acknowledge that there is plenty of common ground - not to mention the fact that many of those core "secular humanistic" ideas are rooted in religious principles.

Each Sunday in 1775, you would have found many - if not most - of the Founders who played a critical role in our nation's founding in their respective houses of worship.

Thank (fill in the blank here with whatever the dictates of your conscience and creed requires) that they didn't "stay the hell out of politics."

- Dave

[Ian David]

38. I know this is off-topic, but...

Have you considered switching to a denomination that doesn't hate you?

If I were Christian, my top two choices would be:
1) The Unitarians http://www.uua.org/
2) The United Church of Christ http://www.ucc.org

For the more adventurous, the following religions seem to be the most fun:

1) The Wiccans http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm
2) The Zendiks (especially if you like popcorn and music by Phish) http://www.zendik.org
3) The Raelians http://www.rael.org/

Some of the more interesting seem to be:

1) Scientific Pantheism http://www.pantheism.net/paul/index.htm
2) Budhism http://www.buddhanet.net

Or, you can purchase the franchise rights to open up a branch of the new cult I'm starting, called "HotChickOlogy." You could be the founder of the gay-male-offshoot of the church, "HotStudOlogy."

[CorpGovActivist]

60. My Unitarian Friends...

... are many.

: )

So are my friends who are atheists, agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, every stripe of Christianity, etc.

But if/when I can finally get married, it will be the Unitarian "Rev Bev" who will do the deed.

; )

- Dave

P.S. I stopped attending church when I was 16, after seeing how the church treated my parents during their divorce.

[shadowknows69]

53. One thing I can say about the pentacostal church I used to attend

and this was back in the 80's when AIDS was "the gay disease" but they never really went out of their way to demonize homosexuality. I hope the same remains true for your church. Good on you for having the courage to be in the light about it. Always enjoy your posts but didn't know this Corp.

[CorpGovActivist]

63. What Pissed Me off the Most about My Pastor...

... was when he got going on a stemwinder on Sunday night. Sunday night services began at 6. If he wrapped things up by 7:55, I could hightail it home - running as fast as I could - to catch the opening credits of the old Battlestar Gallactica (no VCR, no TiVo).

On those nights when he got really going, I'd miss part of the episode.

; )

- Dave

[shadowknows69]

67. Yeah they definitely didn't have a set time schedule

Its rude to tell people being slain in the spirit and speaking in tongues to stop because the service is over lol.

[CorpGovActivist]

70. My Dad and I Got Busted during the 1981 World Series...

... we snuck out of the church sanctuary to "use the bathroom," only to have my Mom tap on the passenger window of the car, where we were holed up listening to the game. No horror flick of a deranged killer tapping on the car window was as frightening as that!

In my dad's extended family, different siblings went to different denominations. Religious differences were OK.

The only orthodoxy enforced in my grandfather's house?

Yankees baseball. Work stopped on the farm on afternoons when the Yankees were playing. We'd sit on the porch, chat, and listen to the games being called.

; )

- Dave

[bleever]

72. How about: "God made you. Jesus loves you. That's good enough for us."

:thumbsup:

[CorpGovActivist]

84. It Would NEVER Fly Now...

... but my school bus driver had a sign of a stubborn-looking kid on his bus, with the caption, "I'm SOMEBODY! Coz God don't make no junk!"

- Dave

[flamin lib]

74. Okay, I'll bite.

Tell us how to reach out.

What words do we use?

How do we set up the codes?

Teach us to manipulate people the way Republicans do.

[CorpGovActivist]

85. I Reject the Premise of Your Question

"Teach us to manipulate people the way Republicans do."

Did it ever occur to you that you can communicate in a genuine fashion about *YOUR* core beliefs in a way that respects *THEIR* core beliefs?

That is not manipulation. It's respectful dialogue (something that some sniggering elitists in the DNC and the RNC don't know how to do in this arena).

- Dave

[flamin lib]

95. Not much dialog here. Just a bunch of "your're doing it wrong"

and no help on "how to".

C'mon, I'm not trying to be difficult, just tell me what you want me to do. Give me some advice here, oaky?

[CorpGovActivist]

96. Upthread...

... I provided several suggestions.

I'll repeat here: name your 5 most cherished "core Democratic values" - I'll translate into Evangelical for you.

- Dave

[flamin lib]

99. Therein lies the problem.

If Evengelicals who vote Republican paid any attention to the teachings of Jesus this thread wouldn't exist.

Jesus taught to help the poor.

Jesus taught to heal the sick.

Jusus railed against riches for riches' sake.

If we who hold our faith sacred and keep it to ourselves instead of praying on the street corners so we can be seen of men have to tell Evengelicans why they should evaluate Republican talking points, what is the point? They are lost to the Lord anyway, much less to Democrats.

I say to you, look to Jesus's teachings and vote that.

[CorpGovActivist]

100. Preaching to the Choir...

I was lucky. I had parents who taught Critical Thinking 101, every Sunday after church:

"The pastor preached A, B, C, D, and E. I personally only believe A and D. As you grow older, you will have to decide what you believe. Above all, remember the teachings of Christ Himself. When in doubt, go back and re-read His words."

"If Evengelicals who vote Republican paid any attention to the teachings of Jesus this thread wouldn't exist."

So, you absolve the DNC and the Democratic leaders for failing to put out the progressive message in a way that is respectful of "values voters," which would entice more evangelicals to split their ticket, at the very least?

"Jesus taught to help the poor.

Jesus taught to heal the sick.

Jusus railed against riches for riches' sake."

All true. Again, do you absolve the DNC and Democratic "leaders" and "message makers" of all responsibility? In other words, shouldn't that be an easy sell to "Purple Pentecostals," if framed properly?

"If we who hold our faith sacred and keep it to ourselves instead of praying on the street corners so we can be seen of men have to tell Evengelicans why they should evaluate Republican talking points, what is the point? They are lost to the Lord anyway, much less to Democrats."

Nobody is asking you to wear ***YOUR*** religion on your sleeve. But is it really too much to ask that the secular humanists in the DNC - who are supposedly among the smartest people on the planet - undertake the (very simple) task of drawing the parallels between the topical issues of Christ's time and our own? Being respectful of ***THEIR*** view of religion in ***THEIR*** lives doesn't require you to wear your religion on your sleeve.

But if you want ***THEIR*** votes, I think it's safe to say you're going to need to frame the issues ***THEIR*** way when talking to them about the issues. If you don't want ***THEIR*** votes, abandon their souls and their votes in one fell swoop: "They are lost to the Lord anyway, much less to Democrats."

"I say to you, look to Jesus's teachings and vote that."

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Even "those" Pentecostals.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

86. When KKKarl Rove Mocks Evangelicals...

... many Dems screech, "See?!? See?!? They're USING you!"

When those same Dems mock evangelicals, "those" voters say, "Yeah, we know that some in the RNC don't really share our values. But there are some in the RNC who do, and at least they talk to us, not at us, or about us, or down to us."

- Dave

[bobbolink]

117. "Us and Them" -- = poison

Many, many years ago (yes, I'm that old), I was in mass when the Episcopal priest said in his sermon that that week someone in the parish had asked him what his definition of pornography is.

His reply: "I see pornography as the whole concept of 'us and them'"

That struck me very strongly then, and has stayed with me. I truly believe that's the essence of Jesus' words, distilled to it's finest, and we would do well to heed it.

Not that it's easy to do.

It also seems to me that it's the essence of Jung and his talking about our "shadow" selves. Just as your example of how the Dems do the same thing as the RW, but don't see it in themselves.

If we would be willing to face our shadow selves, not only would our country be a lot better off, but we'd suddenly find our party with a lot more power.

What a concept.

I hope you get a few to listen. It's certainly important.

[CorpGovActivist]

119. This Was the Lesson of Battlestar Last Night...

... the words "poison" and "us vs. them" were even used!

: )

- Dave

[bobbolink]

124. Whoa! And I don't watch science fiction...

:silly:

Maybe I'll have to look into that... :)

Suppose West Wing would be offended if I took on another series?

:hi:

Really, it's such an important message, although very difficult to follow, and I hope it has penetrated the noggins of those watching Battlestar!

[CorpGovActivist]

125. Talk to Pentecostals/Evangelicals about the Pharisees & Saducees & Lawyers That Christ Rebuked...

KKKarl Rove and the "religion on our sleeves" RNC crowd are like unto the Pharisees, for they love the "uppermost seats": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=woe+unto+you+pharisees+uppermost+seats

KKKarl Rove and the "religion on our sleeves RNC crowd are like unto the Sadducees, for they love to sow discord and misunderstanding: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=woe+unto+you+sadducees

BakerBotts, Alberto Gonzales, Eugene Scalia, Vinson & Elkins, and all the other Corporatist Cover-up Crew are just like the lawyers that Christ rebuked, in red letters: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=woe+unto+you+lawyers+lade+men+with+burdens+key+knowledge+hindered

The Bushy Banks are just like the money changers in the Temple, who came in for Christ's most violent rebuke, for they corrupt and defile the "secular temple of Democracy itself": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=moneychangers+temple

Christ fought the established power brokers of HIS day. THAT - in a nutshell - is the broad brush outline of how the DNC "message makers" could start putting down their soy tofu lattes, and reconnect with a segment of the electorate that used to listen to both sides.

- Dave

P.S. For all the well-educated secular humanists in the DNC who didn't understand half those words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. Lifetime education starts in the inner sanctum.

[bobbolink]

130. I've come this close to mentioning the Pharisees.

What I know is that just about *everyone* is defensive when they have something pointed out to them that they take as critical.

I have been trying to find a gentle way to bring it up, that won't trip their defensive triggers.

However, there are some others, who are supposed to be more aware, that I'm ready to haul out those big guns on. Thanks for giving me permission.

:)

[CorpGovActivist]

133. Don't Call the Pentecostals the Pharisees; Rather...

... point out to them that they're being misled by the nose, by today's modern-day Pharisees and Sadducees - found mainly in the RNC.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

135. I got that.... still, people are more defensive than not.

Have you used this in practice?

If so, what was the result?

I'm really interested, because I've been thinking along these lines, and you've put some meat on the bones, so to speak.

[CorpGovActivist]

142. It Works...

... tried and true.

- Dave

[kineneb]

87. some ideas

(Note to readers: I consider myself a Buddhist, but have a strong background in Medieval history, which also covers the history of the Early Church. I also play for Sunday services at a very liberal United Methodist church.)

1.There is no mention of homosexuality in Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke). None. Therefore, Jesus did not say anything about it. (Paul, who had his own issues, does mention it, but that is Paul, not Jesus.) Now Jesus does have quite a lot to say about divorce, which none of the Protestant churches seem to notice... (the Bible Belt has the highest divorce rate of the nation...!)

2.The approach should be through Jesus' teachings: to see those who purport to be the leaders of the church as false prophets or "scribes and Pharisees" who would lead their congregations into error.

3.Or... perhaps use the "hypocrite" teachings. If you are a Biblical literalist, then to cherry pick your quotations about morals is to be a hypocrite. And Jesus, in the Synoptic Gospels, has lots to say about hypocrites.

4.The real teachings of Jesus are essentially liberal. If people would actually read the Gospels for themselves (like Luther suggested!), especially the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes, there is no other conclusion they should reach. (Jesus keeps mentioning the 'if you have eyes and ears' bit, duhh.)

5.Churches and preachers have tried to twist the readings to benefit their own power, but they have become the modern Pharisees; twisting the Word to benefit their personal egos and pocketbooks. As Christians, only by following the real teachings of Jesus, found right there in the Synoptic Gospels, can they truly hope to attain the Kingdom of God.

---
...See, I actually have read the Gospels... won't hurt anyone, and you don't even have to "believe"! And all I have is the King James Version, which is jolly, because I can read Elizabethan English in context.

There is nothing in the essence of Jesus' practical teachings which contradict the Buddhist teachings (surprise, surprise). The historical and cultural contexts are different, and after winnowing those out, one gets to the core of their meaning:
-be good, do good
-wealth and greed are a hindrance to spiritual development
-to care for the least of those among us enriches the world
-it is good to care for the environment (creation)- it keeps us alive.

just some ideas from this heathen...
kb

[CorpGovActivist]

90. Magnificent Observations!

"(Note to readers: I consider myself a Buddhist, but have a strong background in Medieval history, which also covers the history of the Early Church. I also play for Sunday services at a very liberal United Methodist church.)"

Oh, well. You play an instrument. Lots of Pentecostal churches "overlook" the "differences" of gifted musicians.

; )

"1.There is no mention of homosexuality in Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke). None. Therefore, Jesus did not say anything about it. (Paul, who had his own issues, does mention it, but that is Paul, not Jesus.) Now Jesus does have quite a lot to say about divorce, which none of the Protestant churches seem to notice... (the Bible Belt has the highest divorce rate of the nation...!)"

As I mentioned in a sub-thread, some "Red Letter Christian" groups are really hammering these points home, both with respect to the anti-gay horsecrap, and with respect to the divorce issue. That, plus more and more of these groups are re-discovering the words of Peter's letters, explicitly warning against Paul's imperfect understanding, as expressed in his (more-oft-cited) letters.

; )

"2.The approach should be through Jesus' teachings: to see those who purport to be the leaders of the church as false prophets or 'scribes and Pharisees' who would lead their congregations into error."

Ninety percent of the DNC just said, "Phari-who now?"

"3.Or... perhaps use the 'hypocrite' teachings. If you are a Biblical literalist, then to cherry pick your quotations about morals is to be a hypocrite. And Jesus, in the Synoptic Gospels, has lots to say about hypocrites."

And lawyers! Jesus hated lawyers (especially corporate ones, like those that defend Halliburton)!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=woe+unto+ye+lawyers+jesus+lade+men+with+burdens+grievous+key+of+knowledge+taken+away

; )

"4.The real teachings of Jesus are essentially liberal. If people would actually read the Gospels for themselves (like Luther suggested!), especially the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes, there is no other conclusion they should reach. (Jesus keeps mentioning the 'if you have eyes and ears' bit, duhh.)"

No kidding! The DNC could so easily adapt this message for our own times, and make *significant* inroads into those areas that are "purplish-red" on the map, turning them "purplish-blue".

"5.Churches and preachers have tried to twist the readings to benefit their own power, but they have become the modern Pharisees; twisting the Word to benefit their personal egos and pocketbooks. As Christians, only by following the real teachings of Jesus, found right there in the Synoptic Gospels, can they truly hope to attain the Kingdom of God."

"Phari-who now?" those DNC elitists asked again.

---
"...See, I actually have read the Gospels... won't hurt anyone, and you don't even have to 'believe'! And all I have is the King James Version, which is jolly, because I can read Elizabethan English in context."

Do you get the plays on words that were used, in many cases? And how very droll that King James VI/I - the namesake and patron of the Bible version favored by Pentecostals - was, by all accounts, at least bi-sexual (helps to know Latin, too):

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=king+james+nunc+regina+est+jacobus

"There is nothing in the essence of Jesus' practical teachings which contradict the Buddhist teachings (surprise, surprise). The historical and cultural contexts are different, and after winnowing those out, one gets to the core of their meaning:
-be good, do good
-wealth and greed are a hindrance to spiritual development
-to care for the least of those among us enriches the world
-it is good to care for the environment (creation)- it keeps us alive."

Burn, heretic, burn! How dare you suggest that one great world faith borrows or shares basic tenets with any other! There must be laying on of hands and rounding up of snakes - immediately! You are surely possessed!

; )

"just some ideas from this heathen...
kb"

And some DAMN FINE ones at that!

Now, do you know why good Appalachian Pentecostals say "heathern," rather than "heathen"?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=heathen+scottish+heather+highlands

; )

- Dave

[kineneb]

94. heathen

vs. heathern

well, no, since my family is a rather interesting conglomeration of...

-English Methodists (mostly Northern, rather than Southern)
-German, Swiss & Norwegian Lutherans
-Arcadian-French Catholics (Louisiana/Texas)

and more recently...
-Persian Shi'a Muslim (stepfather and his family)

now do you see why I am Buddhist? Neutral territory!

[CorpGovActivist]

97. LOL...

... sounds like your holidays are as cacophonous as any American's!

: )

Awesome.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

116. Red Letter Christians, of which Ted Haggard may have been one.....

There are indications that Red Letter Christians, which may have included Ted Haggard, are coming around to the poverty angle, which is what is important to me.

If that's actually the category he was in, then this is sad news for me.

I need all the support I can get, and I'm certainly not getting much from the Dems.

[CorpGovActivist]

120. Southern Poverty Law Center?

Good stuff.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

122. I'm not sure what you're saying.

[CorpGovActivist]

126. Where Are You Writing From? Where Are You Coming From?

Literally, and viewpoint-wise, where are you coming from?

I thought you might know about the Southern Poverty Law Center's fine work, based on your very conscientious posts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center

- Dave

[bobbolink]

128. Yes, I'm aware of them. I wasn't sure what you were telling me about,

or what you wanted me to do.

I need the support of those around me, and while it's fine that there are organizations, I also need those I'm around to understand.

If you were telling me to join that group, (that's why I was asking), then I'll just say that I'm very poor and don't have money for all kinds of memberships. What I need is those around me to care.

OK? That's why I was asking. Your post was a bit vague.

[CorpGovActivist]

131. That's a Good Group to Talk to...

... no membership money required.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center

http://www.splcenter.org/

They have some great ways to get involved, and operate as a sort of clearinghouse, where you can exchange your talents (providing help to others who need them) for others' talents (for things you need).

Whatever happened to a good barter, anyway?

; )

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

98. 0 for 97: Or, How "Those Pentecostals" Now Have Internet Access

Guess what?

The "Pentecostal Internet Access Act of 2006" has now plugged "those" yokels into the Information Superhighway. That means that "those" rubes - who can barely tell "their" asses from "their" elbows, according to secret DNC scouting reports - can now see how "they're" discussed and how "their" core values are rejected in forums such as this one, as being somehow un-American, incompatible with Democratic values, and without any merit in the political discourse of the nation ("they" shouldn't even be allowed to participate in the political process, some suggest).

For one moment, put yourself in "their" shoes: if "you" were wavering, thinking about, flirting with, voting a predominanly Democratic ticket this year, how does all this "us" vs. "them" talk come across, in the context of "We the People"?

- Dave

[cap]

106. I grew up just across the line in western MD...

so I know what a gay pentacostal can be living out there....

My generation was homophobic...and I grew up and moved the hell out (I'm not gay, just dont like small confining towns) ...
I found in the big cities that gays were more and more tolerated and then even liked...
more and more gay people came out...
and then one day,

(drum roll ... exodus music swell)
I found that not only one guy, but four other guys, I went to high school were GAY!!!
I heard from one girl that she knew all about all along, 'cause its been going on all the time. Heck, her uncle was gay.... and then I found out that two college professors (friends of the family) had a "lavender marriage" (ie a lesbian and gay live together platonically but lead their other lives on the side). It seemed like gays were poppin' out everywhere.


So, I would work the family side...there are a lot of folk out there who love their friends and families before they listen to the preachin'

[CorpGovActivist]

107. As I've Said Before...

... my Southern Baptist grandmother loves my partner of 12+ years, and has even given him her secret recipes.

She wouldn't dream of voting against our interests.

- Dave

[PerfectSage]

109. Good Questions Dave

Spiritual growth requires change, and in this case beliefs must be changed. What does the typical pentecostal christian on an unconscious level believe? The gop is the party of 'god' and the Dem's are the party of 'satan'?

How did that happen? I would guess that party affiliation among pentecostals was split evenly prior to the 1980's explosion of right wing tele evangelists like Pat Robertson who support the gop. What would happen if tele evangelists appeared on TV who support the democratic party?

Would this type of explanation of Haggard sway a pentecostal christian?

Either Haggard is a Christian who succumbed to temptation by the devil; or is Satan the great deceiver was using a Machiavellian type christian to deceive true christians into supporting Bush? Either Bush is a Christian, or is Satan the great deceiver using a Machiavellian type christian to deceive true christians.

Some christians can understand the concepts of ulterior motive, sociopath, machiavellian christian and that Bush's real base is the 'Haves and have mores' and that his other base, christians are being deceived. But they wind up thinking America is Babylon from the book of revelations. Like this. :shrug:

http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000006.htm

imo, In the long run it's a dumb idea to go down the path the gop did and politicize religion. Maybe you can find something useful here.

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/strategic/modeling_behaviors.pdf/view

[CorpGovActivist]

112. Don't "Politicize Religion"; Rather, Give Purple Pentecostals...

... a secular humanistic message that strikes a chord with their privately-held beliefs, on such issues as:

* the environment

* healthcare access (if Jesus, the great healer, didn't support that, I'm a monkey's uncle)

* social programs that promote education (e.g., Jesus at the temple as a lad)

... and on, and on, and on. Pick any of the top 10 legislative priorities of the DNC, and I bet you there is a way to make it resonate and strike a chord - without politicizing religion.

Will that bring over all evangelicals? Certainly not.

Will that bring over enough? I think so.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

115. Here's your bumpersticker: "Jesus never demanded proof of health insurance"

:hi:

If an atheist friend of mine could come up with that, surely the rest of us could do a lot more if we put our minds to it.

Yeah?

:shrug:

[CorpGovActivist]

121. The Earliest Universal Health Care...

... and he didn't care if you were a publican, a harlot, a ...

: )

- Dave

[bobbolink]

123. Exactly! Why can't we pursue that?!

[IdesOfOctober]

110. That explains a lot of the non-conformism...

... that'll be $500, please.

Our hour is up!

LOL.

Ides

[CorpGovActivist]

113. Tell Me Something...

... I don't already know.

:rofl:

- Dave

[cap]

132. work the families...

people are very family and friend centric... that's why they stay put...

You gotta get the right families in the right towns with the critical precincts to get their gay/lesbian members to come out. Then have the families and friends show a huge public show of support. Have people explain in simple down to earth language what changes in legislation mean to them. No Kerry talk. Get local people to talk amongst themselves. Not outside agitators as spokesmen. Personalization is big to these folk.

People have been coming out to their friends and families; they just need to show that they are livin just down the road publicly aka TV, radio, newspaper letters, political action, billboard signs.

Anyone involved with the Red Cross knows how to advertise these things. There's lot of service folk from WV so the Red Cross is the critical link to their boys overseas and they know a lot about how to advertise for social causes in the small towns. Work the Red Cross. Somebody in the volunteer section knows what works in which towns. Any gay servicemen/women???

A soft touch will do more here than hard confrontation...

Remember the way civil rights came with the African Americans to these towns. At first, down and out, then the winds of change came from the big cities...then a few motions here and there. Then the "They may be n---, but they're OUR N---"... slowly civil rights came... and more tolerance. We aint there yet by a long shot even for African Americans but things did get better.

We still got a ways to go before macacca is rooted out in these places... But things sure change slow down there.

Although be prepared to sling a little mud if you have to... There's always a minister doing some diddling either on the hetero/homo side. And someone always seems to know who and what and where.

[CorpGovActivist]

134. West Virginia Went for JFK - Why Is That?

It's the message, stupid.

It's the message, stupid.

It's the message, stupid.

When the current DNC figures out that putting carefully-chosen resources into these areas can - AND WILL - tap back into some of the things that caused places like West Virginia to support Kennedy, then the GOP will no longer be able to take those votes for granted.

- Dave

P.S. Yes, the personal touch and family connections work. Everyone on both sides of my partner's and my families know, and that's a lot of votes in some swing districts.

[cap]

143. work the church ladies who have a gay relative...

they are the "momentum" in these towns...

[CorpGovActivist]

144. Amen!

My grandmother adores my partner (she's given him secret family recipes), and she tears into anyone who spouts anti-gay rhetoric!

: )

- Dave

[bobbolink]

139. Rooting out macaca!

My new slogan! :hi: