David Kuo: homosexuality - "Jesus doesn't even mention it at all."

[fearnobush]

"The evangelical obsession with homosexuality makes this especially ironic. For many evangelical leaders, anything related to homosexuality is this special, dark sin. But that's not what the Bible says," says Kuo. "Really it's a sin like gossiping to your neighbor. Jesus doesn't even mention it at all."

<http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1554908,00.html>

[Bill McBlueState]

1. but note that it's still a sin

"Really it's a sin like gossiping to your neighbor."

That's why we need to stop trying to interpret ancient texts and instead just worry about equal rights under the law.

[fearnobush]

2. Why not a constitutional ban on "neighbor gossiping."

It is my belief that 90% of these so called anti-gay right wing christian leaders are in fact VERY gay themselves. And Haggert only reinforces this. Every one ougta shout from the highest mountain tops "The Christian Right are Hypocrite's!"

[Glorfindel]

4. Please don't encourage any such nonsense...

we gays have it bad enough as is, without being saddled with the motherf***ing "Christian" right. If some of them are pathetic, self-loathing gays, so be it, but we don't want the rest of them foisted upon us.

[fearnobush]

8. I respectfully apologize.

My intentions were not attempting to compare or bring down gay folks to the scummy level of the christian right. I just want to expose the hypocrisy so that we all can be treated as equals.

[LeftCoast]

9. I'd like to second Glorfindel's point

This is not appreciated.

[williesgirl]

3. But so is sex with anyone not your spouse per churches so it should be even with sex outside

of marriage - but the repukes won't let gays marry!

[leesa]

6. And what are 'sins' but the things the chiefs and scribes of the various

tribes didn't want you to do for various reasons...sanitation, health, social order, mysticism, resource control, etc.

[EstimatedProphet]

22. Remember, it's the Bible. Everything's a sin.

[JohnnyLib2]

5. Both Kuo and M.J. Fox are heroes for our time;

shining light into the dark corners of American prejudices. Bravo!

[Disturbed]

7. Equal Rights are not "Special" Rights nor should they

Equal but Seperate.

[bluedogyellowdog]

10. True, Jesus never mentioned it

Paul was the writer who made such a point of condemning homosexuality (and other similar things like condemning women speaking in the church, and I believe he also condemned eating meat. He was very much the legalist.) Jesus never mentioned homosexuality as a sin. He talked a lot about hypocrisy though...Scribes and Pharisees, money changers in the temple, etc. I would ask the fundies - do they practice Christianity or Paulianity? Yeah, yeah, I know they believe the entire Bible is "God's word" and completely without context, and therefore Paul's views carry just as much weight with them as Jesus's. They're also wrong. The Bible is probably an accurate record of the words and works of Jesus, but frankly who cares what interjections others ranging from Paul to Popes Falwell and Robertson have attempted to add. Maybe Thomas Jefferson had the right idea - put together his own Bible consisting only of the words and teachings of Jesus. And Jesus never mentioned homosexuality.

[Hissyspit]

12. Which Bible is an accurate record of Jesus's words? Also, scholars well know much of what is attribu

ted to Jesus was added by later authors, has been mistranslated, and transcribed again and again. There is no particular reason to believe that the Bible is an accurate record of the words and works of Jesus.

[Hissyspit]

11. Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality, doesn't insist on marriage, & preaches TOLERANCE

n/t

[gully]

17. Wadda ya know. Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes

as well. Oh my Lord! :P

[Hissyspit]

18. He probably would have been forgiving and non-judgmental about meth users, too.

:P

[gully]

19. Yes he would.

I haven't a doubt.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

13. Clinton had "the blue dress."

these Republicans have blue Wranglers.


here all night folks. . .

[TroubleMan]

14. Usury (i.e. banks and credit card companies) is mentioned far more often.

The one time Jesus got mad was at the money lenders in the temple. Plus here are other references:

Exodus 22:25 If you lend money to a fellow Hebrew in need, do not be like a money lender, charging interest.

Leviticus 25:35-37 If any of your Israelite relatives fall into poverty and cannot support themselves, support them as you would a resident foreigner and allow them to live with you. Do not demand an advance or charge interest on the money you lend them. Instead, show your fear of God by letting them live with you as your relatives.

Remember, do not charge your relatives interest on anything you lend them, whether money or food.

Deuteronomy 23:19 Do not charge interest on the loans you make to a fellow Israelite, whether it is money, food, or anything else that may be loaned with interest.

Deuteronomy 23:20 You may charge interest to foreigners, but not to Israelites, so the LORD your God may bless you in everything you do in the land you are about to enter and occupy.

Nehemiah 5: 7 After thinking about the situation, I spoke out against these nobles and officials. I told them, "You are oppressing your own relatives by charging them interest when they borrow money!" Then I called a public meeting to deal with the problem.

Nehemiah 5: 10 I myself, as well as my brothers and my workers, have been lending the people money and grain, but now let us stop this business of loans.

Psalm 15:5 Those who do not charge interest on the money they lend, and who refuse to accept bribes to testify against the innocent. Such people will stand firm forever.

Proverbs 28:8 A person who makes money by charging interest will lose it. It will end up in the hands of someone who is kind to the poor.

Jeremiah 15:10 Then I said, "What sadness is mine, my mother. Oh, that I had died at birth! I am hated everywhere I go. I am neither a lender who has threatened to foreclose nor a borrower who refuses to pay--yet they all curse me."

Ezekiel 18:8 And suppose he grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others,

Ezekiel 18:13 ...and lends money at interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.

Ezekiel 18:17 ...helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and laws. Such a person will not die because of his father's sins; he will surely live.

Ezekiel 22:12 There are hired murderers, loan racketeers, and extortioners everywhere! They never even think of me and my commands, says the Sovereign LORD.


IMHO, all the "Christians" should be bringing down moral scorn on banks and credit card companies. I'm one of the few Christians I know that do that.

It's funny that a long time ago, Jews had to be the only money lenders and bankers, because it's against Christianity...that's the origin of the stereotype of greedy and money-loving. Now many "Christian" leaders are knee-deep in these type of activities, and now these same "Christians" wail and moan against homosexuality. Banking and money lending is the core of our western society and it's strictly forbidden in the Bible many times, and not one Christian leader that I know of calls them evil or sinners - or the downfall of society. Homosexuality is far less prevalent, mentioned far less times, but it's the rallying call for all these false Christians.

[Toots]

21. We actually used to have laws against unjust interest "Usury" in this country

It was the Nixon Administration that eliminated them..... Anything over ten percent was Usury and illegal...

[JudyM]

15. And as for the old testament, it's on a level with eating shrimp or having a tat

More "abominations" from Leviticus:
* Harvested your entire garden (19: 9)
* Consulted with a psychic or medium or had a tarot card reading (20:6)
* If you’re a man and have had sex without taking a shower and cleaning the sheets immediately after. (15:16)
* Touched a woman while she was menstruating (19:19)
* Had a juicy steak or hamburger (17:10)
* Eaten pork (11: 7)
* Have a tattoo (19:26)
* Stolen anything at anytime in your life (19:13)
* Eaten crab (11:10)
* Talked back to your parents (19:3)
* Planted 2 different kinds of plants in the same pot/garden bed (20:19)
* Worn a cotton/wool blend (20:19)
* Trimmed your beard or the hair around your temples (19:27)
* Gotten out of bed after either your parents or grandparents (19:32)
* Eaten shrimp (11:10)
http://www.gentleshepherdmcc.com/leviticus.htm

[FedUpWithIt All]

16. Taking this a step further....

There are only a few references in the bible that have been pointed out as justification for persecuting homosexuals.

In most of these, the bible does not speak of homosexuality activity but the use of Sodomy (sexual preference irrelevant) against either an enemy or children.

The residents of Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of being inhospitable and abusive. In fact Jesus himself made reference to the reason for the cities destruction being inhospitality and cruelty. It was not unheard of at the time (or at any time since , really) for an invading military to use sex as a further weapon of humiliation. It is this type of rape that the Bible references in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The men of the town (sexual preference breakdowns ie. ratio heterosexual to homosexual..most likely very similar to those today)attempted to rape visitors to the towns. A similar story in judges has the men of the city brutally raping the concubine of the man instead (sadly, she was killed by the man afterward, but that is a whole other issue). The men of the cities were seeking to humiliate and punish the men because they had not paid steep fees and asked permission to enter the towns.

Further...

Ezekiel 16:48-49"This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes."

Sounds frighteningly familiar.

The verses in Romans were written by Paul, no fan of sexuality in general, in regards to the temple practices of the day. One of the common behaviors within these temples was sex with the temple prostitutes (ie. often young orphaned boys and girls) These passages by Paul also reference the common Greek practice of "keeping" a young boy by an older, often heterosexual, man usually under the cover of "mentoring".

Lastly there are the Old Testament Holiness Codes. These were the laws of the time they were written. Many of them are completely ignored today. The eating of shellfish, wearing materials of mixed weaves, tattoos, sex with a woman on her period... are all forbidden. Strangely, many pick and choose which they will follow and which they will not. Why would believers only follow some of these laws? Because they KNOW that Jesus has said that the laws were no longer valid. His coming and the new covenant made the old laws obsolete.

The reasons for the old laws were due to the challenges of the times. As the times changed so did the laws.

All this pesky fact aside, the truth is that the bible is very clear that we are to love one another AS OURSELVES (or as i see it, our most beloved) and we are not to judge another. These two things are valuable no matter what a person's beliefs. And they are absolute to those who claim a belief in the Christian God. Romans 14 says..."4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Perhaps those using "the Lords" name the loudest should try listening to his teachings. Maybe if they did they would find themselves in the center of less scandal. :shrug:

[w4rma]

20. That is very good work. Very logical. That is a great analysis, FedUpWithIt All! (nt)

[FedUpWithIt All]

24. Thank you w4rma n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. Some thoughts:

:-Whether or not homosexuality is a sin by Christian standards ought not to be relevant to its legal status - if it is a sin, it's clearly a violation of positive divine law rather than natural moral law.

:-I think it's wishful thinking to believe that just because he didn't mention it, a devout Jew 2000 years ago wouldn't have regarded homosexuality as a sin, and probably a serious one. If you assume the portrayal of him in the bible is accurate, Jesus would probably have been all in favour of forgiving rather than punishing it, but he'd still have thought it was sinful.

:-The condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible is found principally in two places, I believe (although I may well be wrong): the Old testament, and the writings of Paul. Jesus devoted a lot of time to explaining which parts of the OT did still apply (the moral teachings) and which didn't (the purity code); I think it's fairly clear he'd have thought homosexuality was part of the former.

:-If you want to claim that Christianity doesn't teach that homosexuality is sinful, you have to dismiss the work of Paul wholesale, essentially. It *is* a possible position that parts of the bible have some divine inspiration but that Paul didn't, but it's a very heterodox one indeed, and it's one you need to subscribe to to square homosexuality with something resembling Christianity, I think.

:- My belief, FWIW, is that if christianity were true then homosexuality would be a fairly serious sin, but that as it isn't it isn't; however, it's not something I care about very much because I think it's just a counterfactual.