I work with several members of the New Life Church...

[kentuck]

This morning, I pulled into the parking lot about 7:45, just as my friend, was parking his car to go inside the building. We were about a 100 feet from the front entrance. I never said anything at first, because I knew he was a member of the "Church". It was a slightly uncomfortable moment.

We walked a few steps in silence. I knew that he knew and he knew that I knew but neither of us wanted to broach the subject. I do not recall who broke the ice but the conversation was more quizzical than accusatory. I found out later that he had left work early yesterday when he found out about "it". He told me that his stomach was all "knotted up".

More or less, we walked in silence past the guard and to the elevator. The elevator door opened and we got on to go up to the third floor. From a distance, another young man whom I speak with on a casual basis yelled to hold the door of the elevator open. He was half-jogging with a cup of coffee in his hand. He got on and moved immediately to the back of the elevator and started a conversation with my friend.

When the elevator door opened, I got off first and walked ahead of them. I could half-hear their conversation about 10-15 feet behind, as we walked to our office and computer stations. I went to sign the go-home-early list and then clock in with the hand-scan machine that reads your handprint before signing on with two different passwords onto the computer. As I returned, they were still conversing about the subject of the day, I assumed.

They were trying very hard to assimilate what was happening to them and to their "Church". My young friend had felt a kinship to me because he had just returned from Iraq and Afghanistan and he knew that I was a Vietnam Veteran. He felt that I understood and he needed someone to talk to about his experiences over there. And, in many ways, I did understand.

My friend joined the New Life Church, I suppose, because he may have needed something or was searching for something. I try not to question anyone's religious beliefs or to be judgmental. He said they were going to address the "issue" tomorrow at "Church". He was more quiet than usual all day. He did not visit my area as much as he usually does.

Later in the day, I had an interesting conversation with a lady that "used to go" to the Church. She was looking for the frontpage of the newspaper in the break area and we started talking about the "issue". She said the last last time she went to a service there, the "Pastor" had forgotten a very well-known verse from the Bible and had to hesitate to read it. She says she thought that very strange that he did not know the verse by heart. She said that bothered her and she did not go back after that.

It is a quiet and thoughtful atmosphere in much of the workplace today. Nobody I encountered was trying to make political capital out of this "scandal". They feel sorry for his wife and his five children. They know that no one is perfect. They know that "forgiveness" is part of being a "Christian". They understand that sometimes we all fall short. That is the way most folks are rationalizing the present devastating scandal with Pastor Ted Haggard.

[babylonsister]

1. Wouldn't it be great if this made people question the whole 'gay'

phobia? Perhaps thoughtful people might consider that being gay isn't such a bad thing, as they've been spouting, and recognize it's not a choice.

[kentuck]

2. I actually discussed this very topic with my friend...

that maybe the "Pastor" was born that way. He did not accept that at all.

[Rick Myers]

11. Exactly... I hope this allows Evangelicals to understand the issue

[Hekate]

36. I think what makes people actually *think* is a committed gay couple

someone they know from work or their own family ... not some jerk who betrayed his wife and family with a prostitute. You see the difference here? The committed gay couple ends up looking like regular people -- Haggard just looks like a flaming hypocrite. Although I have to admit that being out to fundies in the first place would be difficult.

Hekate

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

3. Thanks

For the interesting first hand account.

[napi21]

4. Interesting. I'm sure there's more to come, and everyone knows that.

I feel bad for the members of the church. It's a very difficult thing to deal with when someone you trust and respect smashes those beliefs in one day!

[salin]

5. I feel for them - has to be quite jarring

just wish that there was the same sense of "forgiveness is part of the Christian way" when the person isn't "one of our own" (republican/conservative figure or religious leader).

[eleny]

6. Their most difficult job is going to be to deal with their own gullibility

If they can even begin to face it.

[kentuck]

8. One can sense that...

But I heard someone say today that Ted Haggard is "just one man" - he is not the "Church"...I think this cannot help but create a lot of introspection.

[eleny]

22. I'm not as charitable as you

See my reply #21 for how it is with me.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

12. Don't count on it, that will be the last subject they will be looking

to look into and that is what makes them such easy marks for these predatory preachers. It's always a whole lot more fun to find the flaws in other people than it is to find them in oneself. Most likely these people will move on to find someone else to reassure them that they are o.k., it's the rest of the world that has a problem.

[eleny]

21. I agree

And if they're feeling timid or ashamed right now, they can stew in it. Their philosophical explanations can't change that their faith in Haggard was something he never respected. He used them as his props.

I'm not as charitable as some who feel sorry for them. Evangelicals and their heinous and arrogant "revelation" belief don't seem to mind taking this nation to a backward place. These are the same types who made a stilt-walking political circus out of the Schiavo family dilemma. And they would drag women's rights to the gutter and kick them down the drain.

Now, a Colorado Springs branch has been taken in by a modern day Elmer Gantry. That's something that was overdue and richly deserved.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

23. Yeah, if they weren't such a threat to our country and our freedoms

I might be inclined to be a bit sympathetic for them. But, given what they are putting our country through I am running real low on sympathy.

[eleny]

25. my own sympahty tank gauge is pointing to empty

but i thnk you got that drift. :rofl:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

26. Oh I did, it's just I too struggle with understanding that I have

my flaws also, so pointing fingers has been know to come back and haunt me. But in these cases it is awfully damn tempting.

[eleny]

28. I'm not worried about the karma aspect

The way I figure it, if I were to express any sympathy at all, I'd be a hypocrite. So I'm just going nuts out and saying how I feel out loud.

People like these xtians have made life difficult for everyone gay or straight with their delusional world view. So, afaic, they can pull the covers over their eyes and pound sand.

Btw, your Comment on your DU Profile page says it quite well. No flaws there!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

29. LOL Thanks

:toast:

[eleny]

30. Yer welcome!

Cheers back at you. :headbang:

[Danascot]

34. They're welcome to live in their make-believe world

The problem is they want to impose their idiot beliefs and values on the rest of us that makes them offensive and dangerous.

[mitchtv]

7. As my Catholic mother used to say

"Beware of false Prophets"It seems we have found one.

[Gabi Hayes]

9. have you asked any of these people how they felt toward

former president Clinton and his family?

were they so forgiving toward them?

let me guess...

[kentuck]

10. I would guess that your guess is right on....

However, they have not progressed that far yet...They have not yet progressed to liberalism.

[ecstatic]

13. are you going to attend services tomorrow?

Just to check out what's going on?

[Gabi Hayes]

14. so, in other words, they're faux christians, as well, yes?

what a surprise

how can you stand talking to them without pointing out the obvious hypocrisy?

the path to enlightment is a long and difficult one, and the sooner they embark, the better for those poor, lost, benighted souls

it is your christian duty to show them the way

onward, (christian) soldier!

[kentuck]

I do my best...

to let them know there are people ready to take advantage of them and to use them for political purposes, just in those very words.

[eleny]

24. Good for you!

[Malikshah]

15. Folks may wish to remind folks who were or are in the New Life

church of this-- if, in the future, they bring up scandals, and begin to judge and make sweeping generalizations.

The whole Golden Rule thing . . .

So often in some folks zeal--they'll judge others and give no quarter. They are truly blessed that no one made political points with them that day in their work.

[RevCheesehead]

16. Thank you for a very thoughtful post.

It's easy to attack an institution, but sometimes we forget that there are real people involved. I'm so impressed by your observations, and your empathy at what they're going through.

Bless you.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

17. The best thing I think could come out of something like this is to cause RW fundamentalists to

question the tendency to be judgmental of others.

This is the thing I find most objectionable about fundamentalist religion: The smug superiority of the members and their easy judgment of others. The problem I have with this is that assumption that being a member of a "club" (Christians) automatically makes one right and moral is a good way to comfortably shut your mind completely to other ideas.

I remember watching some of that stupid "Wife Swap" or whatever show with the crazy ranting "God Warrior" lady, where she swapped with some New Agey woman from New England (the God Warrior family was in Louisiana I believe).

I remember when the God Warrior lady's friends came over to visit the new neighbor... their whole attitude was to judge this woman strictly from the fact that she was not a Christian and churchgoer.

In their view, just being a member of the "club" of Christians automatically made one good and righteous, and not being one made one NOT. It seemed to absolve the club members of any need for introspection and making the effort to live a good life. I'm sure the fundamentalists would deny this, but you could see it in these women's eyes. "I'm a Christian. You're not."

But instead, sadly, what will probably happen is that some new fundie robot preacher will slide right into Pastor Ted's old spot (if not already) to seamlessly fill it, these people will, as quickly as possible, forget that Pastor Ted ever even existed, and continue right on in their comfortable patterns of belief.

[immoderate]

18. They've been presented with an opportunity to grow.

It's rare that people take advantage of those opportunities. It's easier to rationalize. I guess that applies to all of us.

--IMM

[kentuck]

19. Yep..

I think so.

[Catherine Vincent]

20. There's goanna be a lot of sad and confused members in COS

After all their praying and believing in faith, they find out what their pastor was doing all those years...proof! That's gotta hurt.

[Neshanic]

27. You are too nice. I would of asked if there was "special" group that I could join there.

You know...wink wink.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

31. You did a good thing

Rubbing salt in their wounds is no way to win people over. They will just close ranks tighter and never listen. Your sensitivity has kept the door open and you just might be able to make inroads with them. Good for you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. My brother in law's brother

he's from the area and either a member or knows Haggard

He feels betrayed and conflicted.

As I told my brother in law, it may end the new revival that george bush was seeing... and may even wake up some people

This conflicted is good, for the country actually

[gully]

33. I honestly think that in the years to come these "scandals" will aid in

tolerance for alternative lifestyles. I know that's an odd position, but when "one of their own" engages in behavior that "they've" been taught abhorrent/inhuman/disgraceful - they'll have to open their closed minds just a bit?

[Recursion]

35. Haggard was a tortured soul...

...but for all that he did some good; more than anyone else, he was responsible for the Evangelical movement admitting that Christian stewardship over the earth implies a commitment to environmentalism. I hope and pray, and I mean this sincerely, that out of this he will understand that God does not hate him for being gay, and that he can continue to shepherd people, perhaps with a bit more humility and optimism once he realizes that the Creator loves us all.

[twenty4blackbirds]

37. God has challenges for every one

For Haggard, it may be to finally find strength within himself to accept who he is.
For his wife, it may be to find strength after the one she trusted for 20 years betrayed it.
For his ex-congregation, it may be to find that actions speak louder than words and practice acceptance like a good Christian.

icbw.